Odemax Becomes First Service to Send UHD Movie Over the Internet to a Consumer - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 43 Old 08-02-2013, 10:46 PM - Thread Starter
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On July 11, 2013, a new movie-download service called Odemax became the first to send a native UHD movie over the Internet to a consumer's RedRay media player, which then played it on an 84" Sony XBR-84X900 UHDTV. This milestone marks the beginning of online delivery of UHD, which many believe will become the primary delivery mode for such content long before any physical-disc format is available.

 

The movie in question was The Ballad of Danko Jones, a 23-minute short starring Elijah Wood, Jena Malone, and Ralph Macchio and directed by the Diamond Brothers. Its genre tags include "action," "music," biography," "musical," and "thriller"—interesting mix. But what is it about? The description reads, "In the high pressure world of Rock and Roll, sometimes a wrong move can turn deadly. The Boys have made a crucial error in their latest mission and are left with no choice but to go on the run and start a chain of events that will have them fighting for their lives. They will stop at nothing to climb all the way to the top to destroy The Outfit and the employers they once served." I assume "the Boys" are the real-life Canadian rock band Danko Jones, led by the guitarist/vocalist of the same name. But what is their "mission," and what is the Outfit?

 

Oh well, it doesn't really matter—what's important here are the details of the download. The file was 3 GB in size, and with standard Time Warner bandwidth at the customer's home, it took about an hour and a half to complete the download. The video was encoded with the Red codec and stored on a RedRay server from Red Digital Cinema, with whom Odemax has partnered. The company claims that this test used less compression than necessary, and that its current encodes result in roughly 6 GB files for feature-length movies.

 

There is no announced schedule for public release, but the private beta users will begin accessing the system in their living rooms and home theaters next week. And of course, the company has released no pricing info yet.

 

 

Odemax is aiming to be the world's first Internet-based 4K/UHD entertainment provider. Its roster of independent titles spans a wide range of genres, and each filmmaker and production house has their own "channel" on the company's website, which also provides a portal to order a RedRay player (current price: $1750). This is not mainstream cinema, to be sure, but Odemax beat out Sony Pictures as the first provider to actually send a UHD file to a consumer device over the Internet, pointing the way toward a downloadable future for UHD.

 

For more, see Odemax's website here.

 

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post #2 of 43 Old 08-03-2013, 12:09 AM
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Impressive advancement...although i have to wonder what the quality of a full length 4k movie would be with only a 6gig file size. Is the Red codec really that superb?
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post #3 of 43 Old 08-03-2013, 12:58 AM
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"which many believe will become the primary delivery mode for such content long before any physical-disc format is available."

That may be true but it certainly will not hit the mainstream.
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post #4 of 43 Old 08-03-2013, 01:49 AM
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Sorry, the "math nerd" in me is having a fit right now...

23 min, at 3 Gb space, delivered over 90 minutes, with admitted "less compression than necessary"... Then add in the 6 Gb for a feature length film... hmmm...

"Feature length films" are minimally 90 minute, typically about 120 minutes, and some (including "Director's Cut/Extended Edition releases) exceeding 150 minutes.
If 23 min = 3Gb (minimal compresson) then 120min = 12+Gb... compressed down to 6Gb. Questions of video quality benefits may be legitimate, even considering the use of the Red codec.
I wonder about the speed on a 6 Gb feature film download.
I wonder if I could download the feature film to my server (and of course, sent to a RedRay player), for preservation in my video library, vs having to own the RedRay server to accomplish this.

Proprietary Domain being what it is, I don't believe this will be mainstream either (due to costs)... but does offer an viable opportunity for those with the means and desire to push the UHD envelope.
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post #5 of 43 Old 08-03-2013, 01:49 AM
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Is the $1750 player needed for DRM? At that price HTPC/Displayport 1.2 becomes viable
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post #6 of 43 Old 08-03-2013, 05:06 AM
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post #7 of 43 Old 08-03-2013, 05:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AVTrauma View Post

Sorry, the "math nerd" in me is having a fit right now...

23 min, at 3 Gb space, delivered over 90 minutes, with admitted "less compression than necessary"... Then add in the 6 Gb for a feature length film... hmmm...

"Feature length films" are minimally 90 minute, typically about 120 minutes, and some (including "Director's Cut/Extended Edition releases) exceeding 150 minutes.
If 23 min = 3Gb (minimal compresson) then 120min = 12+Gb... compressed down to 6Gb. Questions of video quality benefits may be legitimate, even considering the use of the Red codec.
Yeah, I think Scott should check those numbers from Odemax one more time.
They don't add up to the little bit of technical information that is released for the .RED Redray codec.

This is the only test I have seen that someone has published. It was in the end of June so it might have been improved since then.
Quote:
Just ran some quick analysis on my last .RED encode.

Started off with: 7729 16bit DPX 4K UHD frames frames (00:05:20 runtime)
Which comes out to: 238GB of disk space
Encoded to .RED Cinema 36: 1.33GB (with stereo audio track)

Be aware that this is a heavy 16bit file, so starting out with a 8bit or 10bit file would yield other results. The compression here is the lowest possible at the moment at 36Mb/s.

The RedRay encoder plug-in in Redcine-X has three settings;
36Mb/s Cinema for big screen theatres.
18Mb/s Premium, good for Home Theatre screens.
9Mb/s for situations when small files are most important.

Notice that the largest bitrates are comparable to Blu-Ray, but be aware that one can not compare directly because 4K captured at higher than 4K resolution sensors and oversampled, can be compressed much harder than what a 2K file can be compressed with better results.

Based on this I would guess a feature movie could be anywhere in size between 15GB and 30GB depending on type of image (high color saturation will yield bigger files than desaturated looks, same for movies with a lot of movement) and compression rate used.
Quote:
I wonder about the speed on a 6 Gb feature film download.
I wonder if I could download the feature film to my server (and of course, sent to a RedRay player), for preservation in my video library, vs having to own the RedRay server to accomplish this.

You will have to do it the other way around.
The movies only download and can be played back on a RedRay player. The player has 1TB of internal storage, which you can offload to your external storage place, and load it back to the player when you want to re-watch the movie."
Quote:
Proprietary Domain being what it is, I don't believe this will be mainstream either (due to costs)... but does offer an viable opportunity for those with the means and desire to push the UHD envelope.
The price on the player will come down pretty fast. It might even come a cheaper player alternative pretty soon (speculation).

The Odemax system isn't just a Home Media distribution domain, it is a whole new way of distributing movies to commercial Cinemas and HTs all over the world with full account system for commercial cinema distribution.
Odemax doesn't buy rights to the material like Netflix and other VOD systems needs to. They are just a platform for content owners to sell and distribute their content.

.
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post #8 of 43 Old 08-03-2013, 05:50 AM
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Any real content?

I think they plan to add a special edition of the same film with director commentary and some lost footage. I thought I read the official re-release was going to be titled Ballad Of Danko Jones Redux


Looking forward to it...

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post #9 of 43 Old 08-03-2013, 06:36 AM
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I wonder, if you downscale compressed UHD to play on a 1080p panel, do these downloads outperform Ultraviolet and iTunes 1080p downloads/streaming options? The file sizes are not much larger with Odemax, and a quality gap remains between Blu-ray and 1080p online delivery.

I'm just curious if the move to UHD online-delivery will also benefit the HD crowd, finally providing a format that can compete with HD discs, in terms of PQ. That could help with adoption of UHD media in general.

Downscaling works for still photos, offering numerous benefits—decreased noise levels, and increased amount of per-pixel color information.

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post #10 of 43 Old 08-03-2013, 07:01 AM
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Odemax isa weird name for a company.
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post #11 of 43 Old 08-03-2013, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Kascnef82 View Post

Odemax isa weird name for a company.

But by no means random...
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post #12 of 43 Old 08-03-2013, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

I wonder, if you downscale compressed UHD to play on a 1080p panel, do these downloads outperform Ultraviolet and iTunes 1080p downloads/streaming options? The file sizes are not much larger with Odemax, and a quality gap remains between Blu-ray and 1080p online delivery.

I'm just curious if the move to UHD online-delivery will also benefit the HD crowd, finally providing a format that can compete with HD discs, in terms of PQ. That could help with adoption of UHD media in general.

Downscaling works for still photos, offering numerous benefits—decreased noise levels, and increased amount of per-pixel color information.
The claim is that compressed UHD, provided the original capture it comes from a real 4K++ camera or scan, downscaled to HD, outperforms BD in most cases.

The Redray player by the way, can output to four HD displays in sync when file is 4K. Gets you a cheap video wall.

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post #13 of 43 Old 08-03-2013, 09:19 AM
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This will definitely not be in the mainstream anytime soon. I also question the file size and compression claims. The last I checked, the RED player didn't offer lossless audio like Blu-ray, just lossy.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #14 of 43 Old 08-03-2013, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaa-Yoo View Post

Impressive advancement...although i have to wonder what the quality of a full length 4k movie would be with only a 6gig file size. Is the Red codec really that superb?

this is my question as well. I mean, if you can fit a UHD movie on 6gb's, you could put it on an everyday DL DVD with room to spare!

double edge sword in a way. make the file size too small, and there's no need for this service as the movie should fit on traditional discs. make it too large, and non-fios users have to wait several hours. I mean, less say they leave them uncompressed and I need to download a 100gb movie. well my provider only allows me 120gb of bandwidth per month, upload/download combined.

there's still a lot of hurdles to overcome, and unfortunately most of them have nothing to do with the companies making the equipment or providing the service. it's almost like you need an internet carrier to come out with the download service so they can cut you a deal on the crazy amounts of bandwidth you will consume.

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post #15 of 43 Old 08-03-2013, 12:43 PM
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We actually have a channel on Odemax as well if anyone has any questions. When encoding a REDRAY file you have 3 compression options, 9, 18 and 36 megabits per second. Those file sizes mentioned in the article are indeed accurate.

The quality is unbelievable, I've seen REDRAY projected on an 70 foot screen and it is flawless. There is a reason .red files require serious hardware to decode.
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post #16 of 43 Old 08-03-2013, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kascnef82 View Post

Odemax isa weird name for a company.

But by no means random...
Quote:
"Odeon (building), ancient Greek and Roman buildings built for singing exercises, musical shows and poetry competitions" - Wikipedia

Did you make that up? smile.gif
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post #17 of 43 Old 08-03-2013, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin O'Neill View Post

We actually have a channel on Odemax as well if anyone has any questions. When encoding a REDRAY file you have 3 compression options, 9, 18 and 36 megabits per second. Those file sizes mentioned in the article are indeed accurate.

The quality is unbelievable, I've seen REDRAY projected on an 70 foot screen and it is flawless. There is a reason .red files require serious hardware to decode.

Then how does Redray compare to, say, H.265? Are they both hybrid wavelet designs? Both take intensive computational power to decompress, but that still doesn't equate to creating a visually lossless file compared to the pro-grade master.

And that's the trick, isn't it? Getting it so that the compressed video file is visually transparent after decompression.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #18 of 43 Old 08-03-2013, 04:52 PM
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Nice write up Scott, thanks. Looking forward to hearing about first impressions of the service.
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post #19 of 43 Old 08-03-2013, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin O'Neill View Post

We actually have a channel on Odemax as well if anyone has any questions. When encoding a REDRAY file you have 3 compression options, 9, 18 and 36 megabits per second. Those file sizes mentioned in the article are indeed accurate.

The quality is unbelievable, I've seen REDRAY projected on an 70 foot screen and it is flawless. There is a reason .red files require serious hardware to decode.

ok, with this in mind, do you guys see this .red file making it outside of the redray system? that is to say, i'm more impressed by the compression/file system than I am the hardware service. heck, if I could get full quality BD files at 4 or 5gbs(instead of 30-50) that would make streaming/downloading movies actually practical. I just don't want to spend 2grand for a piece of hardware if I could spend a couple hundred upgrading my HTPC.

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post #20 of 43 Old 08-03-2013, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

Then how does Redray compare to, say, H.265? Are they both hybrid wavelet designs? Both take intensive computational power to decompress, but that still doesn't equate to creating a visually lossless file compared to the pro-grade master.

And that's the trick, isn't it? Getting it so that the compressed video file is visually transparent after decompression.

I agree with this as well. but I guess in the interim, as long as there is no practical way to get 100+gb movies home, the question will be this redray 'lossy' UHD vs BD 'lossless' 1080p. if UHD is significantly better in all aspects, I suppose even a lossy version of it could be better than HD. kinda like Michael Jordan in his 50's still being able to whoop my arse on the court even in my prime tongue.gif

either way, I do agree the ultimate goal is lossless. what's the point of a new resolution if it can't be delivered natively? this might finally be something that the commercial theatres get to hang on to over home theatre enthusiasts for a long time. it just might not be practical to leave UHD video uncompressed for home use. there's no physical media cheap enough to use, and most internet connections aren't fast enough to stream live. one of those things needs to change before we worry too much about 'lossless' UHD in the home I think.

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post #21 of 43 Old 08-03-2013, 08:48 PM
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The Redray player was given preorder status by Red in early December at $1350 at some point a coming soon was added. About a month or two ago ago it was raised to order status at $1750 with a "coming soon". Several months after preorder, some did receive a Rredray but most who have preordered have not, including Stacey Spears who stated he placed his order ten minutes after the preorder came on line. Red has stated all remaining preorders and new orders should ship within 2 to 3 weeks. Even many Red zealots question whether this will happen. Basically, most shipments from preorder have now been delayed 8 months and trusting Red's two more weeks (an in joke not related to Red) now will mean almost a nine month delay. Ccompared to the now over two year delay in their 4K projector, this is tremendous good news and shows Red is moving in the right direction. Except fpr the very high end boys with projectors say over $10K or so, not many are in the position to shell out $1750 for a set top Red box. Red builds its products using its own workers at its US factory and studio in or near Hollywood and contributes to higher costs. By not going outside for production, this might lead to long waits if the Redray take offs. Red is showing at Cedia, assumingly with Odemax which it has shared booths with at several other shows recently. Speculation is that Red will announce a cheaper, non professional playback version of its Redray. Now any Red camera owner can load what it shoots on a Red camera by processing it through the Red codec and then loading it on a Redray for decompression and playback. Assumingly, a cheaper machine might just be able to be connected to the internet for a down load from Odemax and, thank God, competitors to Odemax that want to ride on the Redray. We just don't know anything about a cheaper Redray. But late September at Cedia should tell. Red may also show some version of its 4K laser powered projector. But Red has stated the projector won't go on sale tomorrow. One must realize that tomorrow and coming soon in Red speak can mean almost anything. Not tomorrow could mean years and coming soon could mean six months or more. A delay in the Redray really meant nothing to HT users because without Odemax up and running, there was nothing to play. Of course you could have bought a Red camera and shot your own content. Anyhow the load it on codec only recently became available too. Odemax went to beta August 1. If you have a Redray, you can sign on and get turned on almost immediately. Odemax does have a significant number of Indy producers signed up. Nothing main stream from big studios. One is limited by the descriptions of the content and there is no indication of what resolution the content was shot and/or mastered in. So some of the content might be only 2K. Odemax said it would accept 2K content as well as 4K. We just don't know a lot about each piece of content now on Odemax. The Redray can scale up to 4K and downscale 4K to 2K.I am just telling it like it is. But if you want 4K content for your Sony 1000ES projector, the only HT 4K projector currently available, getting a Redray and signing up for Odemax will get you some content now and much more later. Likely Odemax will initially and shortly have much more content than Sony will initially. but it will be Indy stuff, which is quite good often if the subject matter interests you and you do not insist on big name actors and directors. I expect the Red codec to be much better than 265. remember 265 is a work in progress.

Please feel free to correct me where necessary Justin.

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post #22 of 43 Old 08-03-2013, 08:57 PM
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Sadly, even if Redray is superior to H.265, the latter will be the new industry "darling" because a lot of powerful companies hold patents on the new MPEG design. They want royalty money for it. Using the Redray codec for UHD media would only benefit RED.

Politics and money win out every single time.

It might have been better for all if RED had had input on the H.265 codec to make it even better.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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As far as I know H.265 does not use wavelet based compression. REDCODE is the wavelet based compression that allows RED cameras to shoot to small SSD cards instead of the large external recorder boxes other 4k cinema cameras use. Basically REDRAY is the same codec but tweaked for delivery. I have to say, I can't tell the difference between the original RAW footage and the final REDRAY file on a 50" 4k TV.

Wavelet based compression breaks down very differently than any other codec I have used. On the RED camera I have tested 18:1 REDCODE compression against 3:1 and the only difference you see is a slight "softening" in the fine detail. You never see the blockiness or banding other codecs display when pushed.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin O'Neill View Post

As far as I know H.265 does not use wavelet based compression. REDCODE is the wavelet based compression that allows RED cameras to shoot to small SSD cards instead of the large external recorder boxes other 4k cinema cameras use. Basically REDRAY is the same codec but tweaked for delivery. I have to say, I can't tell the difference between the original RAW footage and the final REDRAY file on a 50" 4k TV.

Wavelet based compression breaks down very differently than any other codec I have used. On the RED camera I have tested 18:1 REDCODE compression against 3:1 and the only difference you see is a slight "softening" in the fine detail. You never see the blockiness or banding other codecs display when pushed.

Thanks for the info.

Since we all know that H.265 is "it" for consumer delivery (and probably the capture codec for consumer and prosumer camera gear) and not Redray, the test will come if H.265 compression will hold up will on large projection systems and when compressing higher video bit depths, wider color gamuts, and higher frame rates than ever before. UHD needs a LARGE screen to shine (and the powers that be better push this point) and so any future medium using H.265 must not have visible artifacts showing up.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #25 of 43 Old 08-03-2013, 09:16 PM
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That seems like a very accurate summary, Mark.

I just did a quick test and even if you import a 2k TIFF sequence to the REDRAY encoder it uprezzes to 4k automatically. I don't know if there will ever be a way to run a test and see if a film did indeed originate at 4k. Somebody could definitely fake it, but I think it should be fairly easy to tell visually.
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post #26 of 43 Old 08-03-2013, 09:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

ok, with this in mind, do you guys see this .red file making it outside of the redray system?

I don't think so. REDRAY requires a pretty powerful application specific processor to decode. That being said, the only way this is going to make any sense for content creators is if RED releases a much cheaper consumer version at some point. The current REDRAY is the professional version that comes with a multitude of outputs and is geared for theaters and high end A/V scenarios.

I guess eventually the average computer will be powerful enough to decode REDRAY. By then, the processor might be built right into the display. Who knows.
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post #27 of 43 Old 08-04-2013, 05:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Justin O'Neill View Post

That seems like a very accurate summary, Mark.

I just did a quick test and even if you import a 2k TIFF sequence to the REDRAY encoder it uprezzes to 4k automatically. I don't know if there will ever be a way to run a test and see if a film did indeed originate at 4k. Somebody could definitely fake it, but I think it should be fairly easy to tell visually.

According to the specs for the Redray, it can output a whole variety of resolutions and rates through user settings. You are saying that it first uprezzes to 4K and then you would need to down rez? That would be a no no around here except for JVC fan boys with their e shift projectors where everything in upscaled to 4K and then in essence down rezzed to two 2K frames that are shifted and overlapped to get back to uprezzed 4K. Actually it works quite well.

Those who have been paying minute attention will note that Justin is basing his observations using a 50 inch monitor, probably the cheap Chinese Seiki. Most of the Red fan boys don't have 4K projectors to evaluate their work, perform post operations on and make critical evaluations. Perhaps most post work can be done well on small screen monitors but some must be done on large screens if large screen display is to be a high quality end product. Some of the boys actually rent a theater with a Barco 4K to do their final post but I suspect most don't. This will all change as cheaper 4K projectors become available but unfortunately many Red fan boys are so brainwashed they will never ever buy a 4K projector until Red makes one they can afford. For now its up to us with our 4K Sonys to evaluate critically what comes out of the Redray. Of course to my knowledge, none of us have one yet and with the possibility of a cheaper red ray coming soon, say 2014, we might just wait until after Cedia to make a buying decision.

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post #28 of 43 Old 08-04-2013, 07:32 AM
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I am very skeptic about this "advancement" I have yet to see 1080P streamed with out major flaws. On Scott's podcast http://twit.tv/show/home-theater-geeks/166 we find out the vast majority of Theaters only play 2K digital video
will the studios provide a superior digital format to the home market over the Theaters?? Theater owners a very reluctant to upgrade projection systems but to they want 4K in the home to kill there business?? I think this is all pie in the sky for quiet some time to come.
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post #29 of 43 Old 08-04-2013, 07:40 AM
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Sadly, even if Redray is superior to H.265, the latter will be the new industry "darling" because a lot of powerful companies hold patents on the new MPEG design. They want royalty money for it. Using the Redray codec for UHD media would only benefit RED.

Politics and money win out every single time.

It might have been better for all if RED had had input on the H.265 codec to make it even better.

You are probably right about this that the usual corporate mob will do everything to keep competing codecs away from mainstream, even if they should show out to be better.

But it is not smooth sailing for HEVC/H.265 and the equivalent Mpeg version. They have a direct competitor for the commercial market in Googles VP9.
And both of these codecs have problems with getting the Patent holders to enter into any agreement in patent pools.

First a couple of comparisons;
  • HEVC/H.265 licence will cost money.
  • VP9 licence will be open source and free.
  • HEVC is about 1% better in quality than VP9 when one pixel peep, before Google starts the optimisation of VP9.
  • More and more video is distributed via the web into browser apps, and Google "owns the web" compared to the corporations (mostly CEMs) in the MPEG-LA patent pool.
    Google takes aim at next gen codec market

First a interesting article about how Google beat Mpeg-LA into submission regarding VP8 after being threatened by them for several years.
Google called the MPEG-LA's bluff, and won 10th Mar 2013.
"MPEG-LA, led by its patent troll CEO, has been lobbing threats towards On2, the company behind Theora and VP8 Google bought, for almost 13 years now. Even though On2 repeatedly asked for the MPEG-LA to put its money where its mouth is, it never actually did so. Still, the threats kept on coming, so much so that the MPEG-LA even started asking for possible patent contributions to a VP8 licensing pool.

No wonder, then, that the announcement of an agreement between Google and the MPEG-LA comes as a surprise - it's a massive about-face for an organisation with such a long history of patent threats. While an agreement between the two is reason enough to be surprised, an even bigger surprise lies within the agreement press release: not only does Google get a license to use VP8 itself, but also a license for the next generation of VPx, as well as the ability to sublicense to all users, whether they use Google products or third party VP8 products.

Why is this surprising?
Well, because this means that VP8 is a hell of lot safer and more free from possible legal repercussions than H.264 itself."

So then we move over to HEVC, which supposedly is or close to be ratified. But that doesn't mean it is ready for roll-out big time, unless one take a chance that not a whole lot of companies are coming after you and each demanding payment.

Background; Many of the companies in the Mpeg-LA patent pool for H.264 have felt that they where cheated out of patent royalties big time by the way the patent pool agreement royalty split was constructed.
Now they want to collect their own royalties from users of H.265.

This whole article is an interesting overview of HEVC, so anybody interested should read the two pages.
The Future of HEVC: It's Coming, but with Plenty of Questions

I just Quote from the relevant patent pool dispute part here;
Royalty Issues with HEVC

What’s clear at this point is that multiple companies have patents relating to HEVC technology, and they plan to ask for royalties from those who use their technology. This was the case with H.264 as well, and though many in the streaming industry grumbled about the royalties, this disgruntlement certainly didn’t limit H.264’s success.

Two things are different with HEVC. First, where H.264 involved a single group of patent holders administered by MPEG LA, it appears that some HEVC patent holders want to pursue royalties outside of a patent group, which will make it more challenging for HEVC users to license the technologies. According to “Patent Snafus Could Delay New Video Codec,” Mediatek and Qualcomm do not want to join the HEVC group formulated by MPEG LA, and Samsung hasn’t decided either way.

One chipmaker executive, speaking anonymously for the EE Times article, commented, “HEVC has so many patent holders and some of them say they will not be part of the pool but want to collect royalties themselves. If say 20 people all want to collect royalties it will kill the standard -- we need a fixed cost, it cannot be variable,” he added.

So what about Googles VP9?
Ought to be smooth sailing as it is one company behind it and not 20 or 30 companies as it is with HEVC.
VP9 was announced to be released in June this year, but then Nokia as one of the patent holders for VP9 balked;

VP9 Is Almost Here, But a Nokia Patent Fight Might Have it DOA

May 14 - 2013.
"In a series of blog posts last week, Google detailed the final release schedule for VP9 and a few other implementation details. These posts also indicated that YouTube plans to start using VP9 once it’s available in Chrome. Unfortunately for Google, recent patent infringement claims from Nokia seriously muddy the waters regarding whether or not VP8 and VP9 will ultimately be royalty free."

So there we have two high efficiency codecs that will compete for popularity.

Will they solve their patent disagreements? Probably; either amiably or that some of the larger companies bully or beat the smaller companies into submission.
After all, it is all about corporate politics and not about quality.

Speaking about quality.
We have been presented with a lot of nice compression numbers and such for HEVC/H.265, but have anybody seen some real high quality test footage of 4K that prove that the image quality is retained under these compression numbers?

HEVC had a stand at NAB 2013, and according to reports, what they showed there as a demonstration of HEVC was so bad that they should have been ashamed of themselves.

What about RedRay in all this? Does RED have some advantages here?
  • It is one company with one codec, no patent dispute.
  • .RED is created by camera designers that use the same compression technology in their cameras.
  • They have been working with real 4K footage for more than six years.
  • RedRay content can only be played back on a RedRay player and can not be played on a PC (at least for now) which combined with their DRM (of which we know nothing) should give content owners that are afraid of pirates an added security compared to content that can be played back on a computer.
  • 4K Image quality seems to be impressively good even at these high compression rates.


Could RedRay players be priced at consumer levels?
That is just a matter of adoption and mass-production.

The future will show if RedRay could be a commercial player in competition with other brands.
But it could at least be an big time High-End alternative to the big consumer backed formats.

.
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post #30 of 43 Old 08-04-2013, 08:07 AM
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^^ Google wants to corner the market on everything they do. I don't see how google is any different than any other power hungry corporation. Less competition means more money to be made. Lets hope these power mongrels don't get their way and everything goes streaming, then we won't own anything. Quality is suffering, they can barely do 1080 let alone 4K and the audio stinks compared to DTS on BD.
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