Samsung Declares Price War: Curved 55" OLED for $8999 - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 53 Old 08-14-2013, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

its no surprise that the chepaer edge lit Samsung would crush blacks with how it handles its dimming. I suspect the LG won't have that issue being that its backlit.

The criticism that you quote is very, very minor, even Consumer Reports declares that. Consumer Reports declared this OLED of Samsung the best hdtv ever tested. $6,000 less than LG is good for the customer.
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post #32 of 53 Old 08-14-2013, 10:28 AM
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consumer reports would likely find a lot of our criticisms on this site 'very, very minor' so I'm not disagreeing with you.
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post #33 of 53 Old 08-14-2013, 10:49 AM
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On second thought, what does edge-lit or backlit OLED even mean? Aren't OLEDs' pixels supposed to produce their own light similar to plasma phosphors?

edit: nm I see I am confusing two 'threads' in this topic. So we are talking about the LCD UHD's being better than the OLED 1080p. Apologies for spreading the confusion.
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post #34 of 53 Old 08-14-2013, 11:52 AM
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OK, got some answers. The reason we're seeing some LCD-like motion performance is because OLED--like LCD--is a sample-and-hold technology, even though the TVs have a very fast refresh rate. That means that each image/frame is kept onscreen, statically, until the TV refreshes with the new frame. CRT and OLEDs are impulse driven (also called pulse driven), so you see an image, then black, then another image, with a much shorter time between frames. (This is also why plasma TVs are a bit dimmer-they require extra brightness to compensate for the black between frames.) The way that the eye deals with these two different approaches is why sample-and-hold-based displays cause motion blur.

There are two ways to address this: frame interpolation (adding additional frames) and black frame insertion. In its OLED, Samsung's Automotion actually uses both approaches, and the TV lets you choose between them. I'm still checking, but we liked the company's ClearMotion setting--it uses black frame interpolation and maintains motion resolution, but it's a bit dimmer than when frame interpolation is used. Fortunately, OLEDS can get very bright, so it's not as big an issue.

We're still playing around with this (30fps content) as well as judder controls (with 24fps content), so I may have more to report, but I think I have a better understanding of why this set, as well as Gary Merson's review of the LG OLED, exhibit some LCD-like characteristics. Hope this is helpful.--Jim
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post #35 of 53 Old 08-14-2013, 12:10 PM
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It's the first year for OLED and 4k TV"s for me I will not buy neither one, the first year and two no way I pay that kind of money just to watch television.
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post #36 of 53 Old 08-14-2013, 12:22 PM
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I agree completely. With 4k, there is the issue of the support for rec 2020, hdmi 2.0, the possible use of displayport, just among three issues. Seems to me that these issues should be decided on before the new tech comes out. Why spend this kind of money just to be obsolete in a year or two. With OLED, I have issues with the premature aging of the blue phosphor as well as being prone to burn in. Again, just to name 2. I will wait for a model year or two before jumping into either tech.
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post #37 of 53 Old 08-14-2013, 12:31 PM
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Yup. Early adapters often pay the price literally and figuratively
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post #38 of 53 Old 08-14-2013, 01:59 PM
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Yeah, baby. Bring the competition and lower those prices. I'd get one of these before 4k any day. However, if it were a 4k (or 8k) front projector then all bets are off.
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post #39 of 53 Old 08-14-2013, 02:11 PM
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Regarding the issue of the vertical bands Gary Merson saw in the LG OLED: They were not present in the Samsung. We didn't notice dead pixels, but frankly didn't look very hard for them on a 0 IRE black screen or perform the timed exposure that Gary did. We have to give up the OLED shortly--we paid for its use, prorated to the price of the set and amount of time we had it--but I'm going to see if I can give it one more look before it gets packed up and have one of our camera guys do a timed exposure. Jim
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post #40 of 53 Old 08-15-2013, 01:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeNY28 View Post

Regarding the issue of the vertical bands Gary Merson saw in the LG OLED: They were not present in the Samsung. We didn't notice dead pixels, but frankly didn't look very hard for them on a 0 IRE black screen or perform the timed exposure that Gary did. We have to give up the OLED shortly--we paid for its use, prorated to the price of the set and amount of time we had it--but I'm going to see if I can give it one more look before it gets packed up and have one of our camera guys do a timed exposure. Jim

Thanks for all the information you've provided to us Jim. This was the world's first lab review of a 55" OLED and we've learned a lot from your observations. So far, it looks like the Samsung is a superior set to the LG - especially given the lower price.

Two final questions I forgot to ask - when you guys saw some image retention after 1 hour of testing, did the retention fade away following normal usage or was it permanently burned-in into the screen? If the retention was temporary, approximately how long did it take to fade away vs. the plasmas?

You noted in your review that the black level was only slightly better than the ZT60 plasma. I've always assumed that OLED would be able to completely turn off individual pixels to provide perfect blacks (as dark as turning off the TV). Was that not possible on this set or did you simply turn up the black level in order not to crush dark shadow details in movies? Assuming one didn't care about shadow detail, was there a brightness setting that resulted in zero screen glow when viewing a full-screen black field in a darkened room? This is currently not possible on any plasma. Some LCD can achieve total black using locally dimmed LEDs but his approach is limited with mixed content due to visible light blooming around each LED zone. I'm hoping with some custom gamma controls (possibly with an external video processor) one can get perfect blacks and show detail simultaneously out of this Samsung OLED.
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post #41 of 53 Old 08-15-2013, 02:23 AM
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I know it's just my smartphone, but the AMOLED on my S4 also crushes blacks I've noticed.

HTPC: I3 2100, Radeon 6950.
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post #42 of 53 Old 08-15-2013, 07:48 AM
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Hi, Mark. In response to your questions:

We ran that 1-hour burn in test on two occasions, a couple of days apart. When we did it the second time whatever slight image sticking that was there the first time was definitely gone. Even after that one hour the sticking was very subtle, much less than on the plasma. We didn't test how long it actually took for it to go away.

With regard to black level, the OLED panel was essentially "off" when we put up a black field and turned down the brightness setting. Our meter measurement was 0.0010 nits. At the appropriate threshold setting (where we could get the deepest black and still see shadow detail) however we couldn't really see our "number one" —the lowest level box on our test pattern (you can see the pattern on our video). Turning up the brightness one notch on the setting improved the visibility of that box, but in a room with no lights on we could see the overall black level was ever so slightly illuminated. It's worth noting that we're viewing in a very dark room so any so-called illumination is quite black as well. More surprising was the black level we saw on the Panasonic ZT60 sitting right next to it with the same pattern. Its black level was running neck-in-neck with the OLED set to the higher "illuminated" setting, though OLED still had the slight edge. Quite honestly, at these levels we're quibbling and both displays had comparable black levels with any video we played on them. The OLED's big advantage here was it's overall image brightness.

I hope this helps. We just bumped up the number of TVs we test each month from 18 to 30, so I have to get back to work. Also, I want to give props to Claudio Ciacci (ex Philips), who is our head TV tester/engineer, who actually is in charge of the tests, and who has taught this formerly audio-centric writer/editor much of what I know about video.

I try not to be too self-promotional about Consumer Reports testing--I think my last post was when we were the first outlet to fully review both an active and passive 3D TV side by side--but if you'd like I'll post links when we do a First Look review of a notable TV, such as our test of Seiki's Ultra HD TV (http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2013/05/first-look-seiki-1-400-50-inch-ultra-hd-tv-isn-t-so-ultra/index.htm). First Looks are always--at least so far--in front of the paywall.--Jim
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post #43 of 53 Old 08-15-2013, 08:22 AM
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Does anyone know if it can be used with other stands? Or if the frame it comes with be adjusted to get rid of the tilt?
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post #44 of 53 Old 08-15-2013, 08:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeNY28 View Post

I try not to be too self-promotional about Consumer Reports testing--I think my last post was when we were the first outlet to fully review both an active and passive 3D TV side by side--but if you'd like I'll post links when we do a First Look review of a notable TV, such as our test of Seiki's Ultra HD TV (http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2013/05/first-look-seiki-1-400-50-inch-ultra-hd-tv-isn-t-so-ultra/index.htm). First Looks are always--at least so far--in front of the paywall.--Jim

I'm absolutely interested in your (and Consumer Reports) take on any notable new TV.

Find out more about Mark Henninger at www.imagicdigital.com
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post #45 of 53 Old 08-15-2013, 12:02 PM
 
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Thanks, Jim, for that fair black level comparison. It sounds like the OLED might be on par with the mighty 101FD and 500M panels from Pioneer. Another reason for people to wait it out, as there is only room for improvement.
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post #46 of 53 Old 08-22-2013, 03:43 PM
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Despite peoples opinion on how 4K resolutions are non differentiating from 1080p" there is one factor that will conclude the difference, sitting distance.

* Take a 70 inch 10-80p display and attempt to sit 6 feet viewing distance from it...its not going to be too pleasing to the eye, the pixel size is just too huge to ignore.

* Now take a 4K 70 inch set and sit at the same distance @ 6-8ft...pixel density has increased, much like how apples ipad went from standard to Retina, now you can sit closer to a Large screen without being distracted by the pixel moire effect.

Ultimately 4K LED sets have the same backlighting, haloing and banding issues as 1080p LED sets, but on a much larger scale.

4K OLED sets have no issues with this and do not require special hardware (backlight edge lit dimming) to create better blacks and motion.
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post #47 of 53 Old 08-22-2013, 03:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by theatredaz View Post

Despite peoples opinion on how 4K resolutions are non differentiating from 1080p" there is one factor that will conclude the difference, sitting distance.

* Take a 70 inch 10-80p display and attempt to sit 6 feet viewing distance from it...its not going to be too pleasing to the eye, the pixel size is just too huge to ignore.

* Now take a 4K 70 inch set and sit at the same distance @ 6-8ft...pixel density has increased, much like how apples ipad went from standard to Retina, now you can sit closer to a Large screen without being distracted by the pixel moire effect.

Ultimately 4K LED sets have the same backlighting, haloing and banding issues as 1080p LED sets, but on a much larger scale.

4K OLED sets have no issues with this and do not require special hardware (backlight edge lit dimming) to create better blacks and motion.

Edge/backlighting and halo issues are exactly the same at a given screen size whether a TV is HD or UHD—it all depends on the system that is used. On the better LCD UHDTVs I've seen, the quality is already quite great. 4K OLED sets simply don't exist in the consumer market, and there are few prototypes out there.

I'd love to see an update on the Sony/Panasonic OLED partnership that is supposed to bring affordable UHD OLED to the masses. I wonder if those two companies are really pouring resources into that, instead of UHD LCD.

Find out more about Mark Henninger at www.imagicdigital.com
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post #48 of 53 Old 08-22-2013, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Edge/backlighting and halo issues are exactly the same at a given screen size whether a TV is HD or UHD—it all depends on the system that is used..

4K doesn't solve those problems, it just makes them bigger, that's why 4K LED is still 1080p problems just bigger, now some might not be concerned with what type of backlight hardware is used to create better blacks etc...but they come across other issues LED have and thats viewing angles will still be bad on 4K as well.

4K OLED ~ Coming soon to a Home Theater Near You.
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post #49 of 53 Old 08-22-2013, 05:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by theatredaz View Post

4K doesn't solve those problems, it just makes them bigger, that's why 4K LED is still 1080p problems just bigger, now some might not be concerned with what type of backlight hardware is used to create better blacks etc...but they come across other issues LED have and thats viewing angles will still be bad on 4K as well.

4K OLED ~ Coming soon to a Home Theater Near You.

I've seen all this with my own eyes—UHD LCD looks amazing when it comes to 2013's high-end TVs. I saw Samsung's OLED and LCD UHDTVs in the same room, at the same time, just over a week ago in NYC.

LCD keeps getting better—as UHD evolves. 4K OLED is not coming soon to a home theater near you anytime soon, mainly because 4K projection is about to become a lot more affordable ,and that's what you will find in most home theaters. That's another reason why the adoption of OLED in the consumer market is far from a sure thing, even at the high end.

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post #50 of 53 Old 08-23-2013, 01:47 AM
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Im going to see one in my area this weekend,just looking tho!
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post #51 of 53 Old 08-23-2013, 09:17 AM
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* I don't think LCD is getting better rolleyes.gif

*It's stagnating in terms of improvements> same thing every year, back light... local dimming... IPS, edgelit...and they still have the same issues year after year. If you think the set's look good then to each his own> I know I'm not buying another set after My Sharp Elite until OLED comes out. The Elite panels where probably the hardest and most expensive panels to manufacture considering all the technology that's required to make them look good. Not to mention LED panels are still huge and heavy ...aside from the Edge lit panels...I don't want to buy another TV that's thicker than .5". wink.gif
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post #52 of 53 Old 08-23-2013, 10:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by theatredaz View Post

* I don't think LCD is getting better rolleyes.gif

*It's stagnating in terms of improvements> same thing every year, back light... local dimming... IPS, edgelit...and they still have the same issues year after year. If you think the set's look good then to each his own> I know I'm not buying another set after My Sharp Elite until OLED comes out. The Elite panels where probably the hardest and most expensive panels to manufacture considering all the technology that's required to make them look good. Not to mention LED panels are still huge and heavy ...aside from the Edge lit panels...I don't want to buy another TV that's thicker than .5". wink.gif

Then I guess the new OLEDs are out of the question.wink.gif

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post #53 of 53 Old 08-23-2013, 10:33 AM
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OLED's have their issues for sure> but are limited more coherently than LED's.

Ultra thin wall mountable OLED UHDTV's. eek.gif
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