OLED HDTVs Must Overcome Seven Obstacles—CNET - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 56 Old 08-21-2013, 12:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

UHD is not imminently needed unless you plan on grabbing an 80" panel and sitting 5 to 6 feet out for full appreciation. Sure there will be more minimal benefits seated further away, but I wouldn't let UHD and HDMI 2.0 hold up your decision when the content available is few and far between. Upgrading to a 65" Panasonic ZT60 plasma (from an ole' 50" Kuro) turned out to be a great decision on my part.

Now that's a reasonable statement. You truly get a lot for your money with a 2013 premium plasma, in terms of raw performance. It's the motion resolution that makes it stand out, even vs. UHD—and it's not clear if OLED will beat plasma in that department.

That said, the difference UHD resolution makes keeps being underplayed. I've seen a half dozen different UHDTVs at this point as well as the very best HDTVs, calibrated by the best pros. It's been a great year for reference-quality flat panels. The fact is, to my eyes UHD looks better and has a greater impact in terms of total PQ "wow" factor than anything else out there at the moment—at normal viewing distances and under normal viewing conditions.

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post #32 of 56 Old 08-21-2013, 01:11 PM
 
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Your experience with UHD/4K and modern high performance TVs (i.e. at the shootout) far outweighs mine, so it's hard not to defer to you. On the other hand, I've been a black level fiend ever since picking up a Kuro, so contrast ratio is my #1 PQ concern. I'm sure you've just catapulted Comfy back onto the waiting fence (if he was wavering in the first place).
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post #33 of 56 Old 08-21-2013, 01:25 PM
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Hey id be happy with a new plasma also, they look amazing. All options are on the table for me, I just don't want to spend 8 or 10 grand, even 5 is too much. I'll wait it out.
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post #34 of 56 Old 08-21-2013, 01:48 PM
 
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Just a touch over 3G for the 65" ZT60 in June...should be pretty easy to match that price at this point (at the time, that was not the case).
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post #35 of 56 Old 08-21-2013, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Just a touch over 3G for the 65" ZT60 in June...should be pretty easy to match that price at this point (at the time, that was not the case).



As well as that panel reviewed it is very tempting. I'm afraid to go look, my wallet abandoned me after my recent upgrades.
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post #36 of 56 Old 08-22-2013, 01:34 PM
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Isn't that a ZT70 waiting in the wings?
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post #37 of 56 Old 08-22-2013, 01:58 PM
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$9,000 for a 55 inch? IMHO, the impact of a $3,200 80 inch Sharp LED would far outweigh the differences in picture quality. An 80 inch has 110% more screen area than a 55. Yup, more than twice as much screen area.
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post #38 of 56 Old 08-24-2013, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

The fact is, to my eyes UHD looks better and has a greater impact in terms of total PQ "wow" factor than anything else out there at the moment—at normal viewing distances and under normal viewing conditions.

How many screen widths viewing distance do you consider normal?

Noah
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post #39 of 56 Old 08-25-2013, 03:19 PM
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Well I saw one today nice picture quality,the colors where not saturated,the curve is not bad people were saying,but its way overpriced,im happy what I have.
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post #40 of 56 Old 08-25-2013, 11:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

How many screen widths viewing distance do you consider normal?

Between 1.5 and 2

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post #41 of 56 Old 08-27-2013, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

A far off thing? How's that? 2013 has been a tremendous year for 4K in commercial theaters, and the pipeline is full of movies shot and mastered in 4K. Youtube and other streaming services already support 4K. Sony will offer UHD online delivery of movies—this year, and so will the REDRAY player. Also, upscaling has proved to be more effective than many anticipated, and that includes upscaling the 1080p output from the new consoles.

By the time a 55" OLED UHDTV hits the market, how much do you think a 70" UHD LCD will cost? My guess is... about the same as the sales tax on the UHD OLED. wink.gif

I hope I am wrong.

Just because content is technically presented in 4K or UHD doesn't necesarily mean it will look good. If it is on disc it will, but we still can't even get 1080p streamed or broadcast right!!!!! Maybe bandwidth WILL eventually catch up but it goes way beyond that issue.

I personally am not very excited to upgrade to "4K" (or really I should say UHD) any time soon. Let me know when I can get an 80" OLED UHD panel for around $3K and there is plenty of GOOD content readily available and we will talk!

Generally speaking I am more interested in the PQ advancements an OLED may provide over higher resolution.
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post #42 of 56 Old 08-27-2013, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by wattheF View Post

Just because content is technically presented in 4K or UHD doesn't necesarily mean it will look good. If it is on disc it will, but we still can't even get 1080p streamed or broadcast right!!!!! Maybe bandwidth WILL eventually catch up but it goes way beyond that issue.

I personally am not very excited to upgrade to "4K" (or really I should say UHD) any time soon. Let me know when I can get an 80" OLED UHD panel for around $3K and there is plenty of GOOD content readily available and we will talk!

Generally speaking I am more interested in the PQ advancements an OLED may provide over higher resolution.
Amen
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post #43 of 56 Old 08-27-2013, 01:23 PM
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Personally I don't need either one of them 1080p good enough for me,just because something new comes out, It don't mean I got to have it,my best TV's I had almost 3 years,most people I talk too don't care about the new technology,cost too dam much,that turn a lot folks off.
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post #44 of 56 Old 08-27-2013, 03:01 PM
 
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Now ubiquitous LCD and plasma were once new expensive technology.
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post #45 of 56 Old 08-27-2013, 04:57 PM
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Wow the exact same arguments for UHD never taking off is being used for OLED. Do you guys every stay on topic?

As for the number 1 major obstacle, if it were actually correct we would never have HD TV sets at all, the first ones were $100,000 and had many flaws. An intro price around $8 grand is a hell of a lot better not mention Kuro Elite went up to $6,500.

The only thing I want to know about OLED is does it live up to it's promise of black blacks and not with bright films like Avengers with lights on but movies that really were a challenge for displays like Sin City, Blade Runner and Alien with the lights off.
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post #46 of 56 Old 08-27-2013, 05:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by wuther View Post

Wow the exact same arguments for UHD never taking off is being used for OLED. Do you guys every stay on topic?

As for the number 1 major obstacle, if it were actually correct we would never have HD TV sets at all, the first ones were $100,000 and had many flaws. An intro price around $8 grand is a hell of a lot better not mention Kuro Elite went up to $6,500.

The only thing I want to know about OLED is does it live up to it's promise of black blacks and not with bright films like Avengers with lights on but movies that really were a challenge for displays like Sin City, Blade Runner and Alien with the lights off.

It's a mistake to conflate a display technology with a display resolution. 4K/UHD is nothing more than the inevitable evolution of video standards, as bandwidth and capture resolutions increase. It is an inevitability, and it needs a name—UHD will succeed because UHD is nothing but math.

OLED is a display technology and as such needs to compete with plasma (at 1080p) and going forward, LCD—which enjoys a significant head-start in the UHD segment, as well as much more affordable pricing. There are plenty of abandoned and unrealized television technologies out there to support the notion that OLED's success is not a 100%, slam-dunk guaranteed thing. I would say OLED has a 95% chance of making it, but not 100%.

The chances we'll see a 4K UHD era followed by a 8K UHD era are precisely 100%

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post #47 of 56 Old 08-27-2013, 05:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by wuther View Post

Wow the exact same arguments for UHD never taking off is being used for OLED. Do you guys every stay on topic?
Is this directed at me? I was responding to the nonsensical post above mine.
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The only thing I want to know about OLED is does it live up to it's promise of black blacks and not with bright films like Avengers with lights on but movies that really were a challenge for displays like Sin City, Blade Runner and Alien with the lights off.
That question's been answered. You can't get a better contrast ratio than that provided by OLED (even if it's only a "little" better than the best plasmas currently on the market).
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post #48 of 56 Old 08-27-2013, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

It's a mistake to conflate a display technology with a display resolution. 4K/UHD is nothing more than the inevitable evolution of video standards, as bandwidth and capture resolutions increase. It is an inevitability, and it needs a name—UHD will succeed because UHD is nothing but math.

OLED is a display technology and as such needs to compete with plasma (at 1080p) and going forward, LCD—which enjoys a significant head-start in the UHD segment, as well as much more affordable pricing. There are plenty of abandoned and unrealized television technologies out there to support the notion that OLED's success is not a 100%, slam-dunk guaranteed thing. I would say OLED has a 95% chance of making it, but not 100%.

The chances we'll see a 4K UHD era followed by a 8K UHD era are precisely 100%
4k and 8k has it downside who wants sit 4 feet front of television just to get image from 50 inch tv,my siiting area in the basement im between 12 to 14 feet back,no 4k in my basement,plus my tv aint 2 years old yet.
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post #49 of 56 Old 08-27-2013, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

A far off thing? How's that? 2013 has been a tremendous year for 4K in commercial theaters, and the pipeline is full of movies shot and mastered in 4K. Youtube and other streaming services already support 4K. Sony will offer UHD online delivery of movies—this year, and so will the REDRAY player. Also, upscaling has proved to be more effective than many anticipated, and that includes upscaling the 1080p output from the new consoles.

By the time a 55" OLED UHDTV hits the market, how much do you think a 70" UHD LCD will cost? My guess is... about the same as the sales tax on the UHD OLED. wink.gif

I hope I am wrong.



Hard headed and unwilling to acknowledge the facts.

Poster you replied to understands the limitations of 4k content.

Youtube and streaming 4k and Redray WHERE YOU WILL WAIT HOURS TO DOWNLOAD.

Until the internet infrastructure is updated 4k content will never be mainstream in this way.................too slow and data limits.

Your asking a UHDTV to more than double the info it receives depending on what the native content resolution is and you think

thats a good thing....................my ass


The OP calls OLED an immature tech but its UHD that has insurmountable content limitations making it both immature

and possibly short lived................its an upconverting set...............period and I don't want it extrapulating half or more of the picture.


Until native content is magically transporting/beamed into our homes some way other than internet,sat or cable.................or billions

of dollars are spent upgrading those three,,,,,internet, sat and cable this isn't gonna happen. They already spent their dough to get

you HDTV and their not waiting in the wings to do it again.

FANBOY
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post #50 of 56 Old 08-27-2013, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Exist_To_Resist View Post

Upscaling is still upscaling , just like 1080p TVs upscaled DVDs yet no so many seemed interested.
Truth is most consumers that own UHD sets want to pair it with an UHD source.
A lack of UHD sources in Videogames and TV providers will translate into a lack of sales of UHD sets, which will allow the OLED technology to mature and become affordable.
Also to note that television providers have a lack of bandwidth for 4k signal unless everyone has fiber to their home it's not going to happen, same goes for streaming services such as YouTube, and Netflix.
Just because YouTube says that it will stream 4k content does not mean that most consumers and Internet subscribers have the bandwidth to handle it, and we all know that mass marked adoption is what makes a technology a success.
1080p sources just became mass market adopted with in the last 3-4 years, first commercially available Blu-Ray player was released in 2003.
That's 6 years, trust me that's plenty of time for OLED to mature.


Factual reply, well done but he won't listen regardless.
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post #51 of 56 Old 08-27-2013, 11:33 PM
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post #52 of 56 Old 08-28-2013, 09:25 AM
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I find myself wondering if upscaled 1080p on a UHD TV can look noticeably better. And let me stipulate, say, a reasonable (?) minimum viewing distance of 6-8 feet to an 84" UHD set. It seems many veteran members here think not. I dunno, and confess I've not yet seen a UHD TV.

I recall getting my first flat panel (42" plasma, 720p) just before Blu-Ray launched. DVDs played on my old standalone (capable of 480i or 480p output) were disappointing. So I got an upscaling DVD player, set it to 720p, and it *did* look noticeably better. Evidently my plasma didn't have very good scaling. The point being that good processing/scaling made a difference in that case.

If UHD upscaling doesn't deliver (or looks little better than the Seiki?), wouldn't that render UHD of questionable benefit, given the dearth of UHD content? With the exception of passive 3D, if that's not superseded in the next few years. I simply can't imagine there will be any UHD content (whether broadcast or cable or otherwise), apart from movies, any time soon. So you're looking at UHD movies on a server, or new physical format, when and if that comes to pass. I purposely left out Youtube, etc, because *my* cable internet speed is barely adequate as it is.

So, does 1080p OLED really have a window in which to establish itself? Or will OLED have to be UHD in order to compete? Assuming, of course, prices come down to the affordable level.

Sorry for the OT, but the putative advantages of UHD LCD over OLED were already brought up.
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post #53 of 56 Old 08-28-2013, 09:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by fritzi93 View Post

I find myself wondering if upscaled 1080p on a UHD TV can look noticeably better. And let me stipulate, say, a reasonable (?) minimum viewing distance of 6-8 feet to an 84" UHD set. It seems many veteran members here think not. I dunno, and confess I've not yet seen a UHD TV.

I recall getting my first flat panel (42" plasma, 720p) just before Blu-Ray launched. DVDs played on my old standalone (capable of 480i or 480p output) were disappointing. So I got an upscaling DVD player, set it to 720p, and it *did* look noticeably better. Evidently my plasma didn't have very good scaling. The point being that good processing/scaling made a difference in that case.

If UHD upscaling doesn't deliver (or looks little better than the Seiki?), wouldn't that render UHD of questionable benefit, given the dearth of UHD content? With the exception of passive 3D, if that's not superseded in the next few years. I simply can't imagine there will be any UHD content (whether broadcast or cable or otherwise), apart from movies, any time soon. So you're looking at UHD movies on a server, or new physical format, when and if that comes to pass. I purposely left out Youtube, etc, because *my* cable internet speed is barely adequate as it is.

So, does 1080p OLED really have a window in which to establish itself? Or will OLED have to be UHD in order to compete? Assuming, of course, prices come down to the affordable level.

Sorry for the OT, but the putative advantages of UHD LCD over OLED were already brought up.

The difference between 1080p and 2160p viewed on a 84" panel from 6-8 feet is readily apparent, it's a case of "seeing is believing," and quite a few folks who are critical, have not had the opportunity to see such a TV—resulting in much skeptical speculation.

The quality of the upscaler is crucial when going from 1080p to 2160p, but the good ones do improve visible detail, vs. native display on 1080p panels.

1080p OLED is perfectly great for smaller screen sizes (like my Samsung Galaxy S4) but from 55" on up I would much prefer any future TV I own to be UHD.

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post #54 of 56 Old 08-28-2013, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

The difference between 1080p and 2160p viewed on a 84" panel from 6-8 feet is readily apparent, it's a case of "seeing is believing," and quite a few folks who are critical, have not had the opportunity to see such a TV—resulting in much skeptical speculation.

The quality of the upscaler is crucial when going from 1080p to 2160p, but the good ones do improve visible detail, vs. native display on 1080p panels.

1080p OLED is perfectly great for smaller screen sizes (like my Samsung Galaxy S4) but from 55" on up I would much prefer any future TV I own to be UHD.

Thanks. I don't foresee upgrading for a few years, but I figure my next set will be UHD, 3D and at least 84". Time enough to see what shakes out.

I really have to go see a UHD set for myself.. Nobody near me has an OLED set yet, tongue.gif
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post #55 of 56 Old 08-28-2013, 05:11 PM
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Is this directed at me? I was responding to the nonsensical post above mine.

If you had to ask I guess you were but I was referring to those arguing only about 4k, if OLED was promised to be 4k out of the gate then they would have a point but it was not promised and they dont. And of course they do not explain why 4k was 'never going to take off' 2 months ago and is now the standard to judge 1080p TVs by.
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That question's been answered. You can't get a better contrast ratio than that provided by OLED (even if it's only a "little" better than the best plasmas currently on the market).

Nah Avengers is not display challenging at all and contrast ratios tells nothing about blacks, other types of TVs claim infinite ratios which is bogus.
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Originally Posted by wuther 
Nah Avengers is not display challenging at all and contrast ratios tells nothing about blacks, other types of TVs claim infinite ratios which is bogus.
The ZT60 is about as good as you can get without grabbing one of the OLED panels (fortunately, I haven't seen either of them make the above claims), and I wasn't really referring to the marketing lingo but more or less the facts born out by the measurements.

Sure, contrast ratios don't necessarily suggest deep blacks (when you have a display that can reach brightness levels in excess of 80 fTL), but in this case, they most certainly do. Specifically concerning black levels, a few reviewers provided real-world measurements (Consumer Reports and CNET, the latter of which showed a 0.00004 fL, the lowest they'd ever recorded) bearing this out. Avengers does actually have some rather dark environments as I recall (obviously not as prevalent as the other films you mentioned), not that this makes any difference as to the panel's black level capability.
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