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post #31 of 50 Old 05-30-2014, 07:25 AM
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Why would you commit to that when there aren't any Auro-encoded movies on home video? Theatrically, there was one movie mixed in Auro this month (Amazing Spiderman 2). By comparison, there were 5 Atmos releases in this same time period (Amazing Spiderman 2, Disney's Million Dollar Arm, Godzilla, X-Men: Days for Future Past, Maleficent). There's no guarantee that ratio will remain the same on home video, but it is at least an indicator.
Object-based audio can adapt to Auro's speaker layout, but not the other way 'round. Despite that, I would still question why anyone would base their home theatre's audio design (including treatments and speaker positioning) on Auro 3D. With the industry not having standardized on height speaker locations, why would you commit to that particular format?

I was under the impression that Auro 3D was the actual future of home theater, with no Atmos for the home announced in the last few years, and object-based audio seemingly a long way off.  So my question is--if I stop with the Auro 3D....what do I configure for?  I want to be future-proof and Auro 3d is all that's out at the moment.  Should I configure for a 7-channel layout until object-basd audio becomes standardized? Hmmmmm.  Perhaps I can treat for 7-channels, and modify the treatment plan once the standards change.  I'd need to wire for all possibilities though since this will be a triple-drywalled bunker and adding more wire isn't an option once the drywall and green glue go up. Is there any info out there on suggested wiring patterns for object-oriented audio?


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post #32 of 50 Old 05-30-2014, 07:26 AM
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Both DTS and Dolby (at least in the cinema) seem to be working more with the traditional side and back surround layer positioning with additional front side surrounds aimed towards the listening space and then the top stereo layer is across the ceiling on a grid. Optional surround subwoofers too. It makes it easier to retrofit existing commercial theaters this way.

If you are plunking down money for a professionally designed theater I would hold off until we know a little bit more about the industry's plan for advanced surround in the home. Hopefully this year. Don't rush it and then kick yourself in a few months.

But with the SMPTE really pushing for object based formats due to scalability and other factors, I think traditional Auro3D's days are numbered. It's easier to map to various speaker configurations with objects.

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post #33 of 50 Old 05-30-2014, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

Both DTS and Dolby (at least in the cinema) seem to be working more with the traditional side and back surround layer positioning with additional front side surrounds aimed towards the listening space and then the top stereo layer is across the ceiling on a grid. Optional surround subwoofers too. It makes it easier to retrofit existing commercial theaters this way.

If you are plunking down money for a professionally designed theater I would hold off until we know a little bit more about the industry's plan for advanced surround in the home. Hopefully this year. Don't rush it and then kick yourself in a few months.

But with the SMPTE really pushing for object based formats due to scalability and other factors, I think traditional Auro3D's days are numbered. It's easier to map to various speaker configurations with objects.

@Dan Hitchman,

 

I appreciate the insight that both you and @sdurani have provided regarding this.  You've just saved me quite a bit of 1) Money, 2) Time, 3) Remorse.


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post #34 of 50 Old 05-30-2014, 08:24 AM
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Should I configure for a 7-channel layout until object-basd audio becomes standardized? Hmmmmm.  Perhaps I can treat for 7-channels, and modify the treatment plan once the standards change.
That's what I would do; safer than installing height speakers based on guesses about what's coming. Aside from a typical 7-speaker layout (fronts, sides, rears), I would also wire for wides (placed between the fronts and sides).

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post #35 of 50 Old 05-30-2014, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

Both DTS and Dolby (at least in the cinema) seem to be working more with the traditional side and back surround layer positioning with additional front side surrounds aimed towards the listening space and then the top stereo layer is across the ceiling on a grid. Optional surround subwoofers too. It makes it easier to retrofit existing commercial theaters this way.

If you are plunking down money for a professionally designed theater I would hold off until we know a little bit more about the industry's plan for advanced surround in the home. Hopefully this year. Don't rush it and then kick yourself in a few months.

But with the SMPTE really pushing for object based formats due to scalability and other factors, I think traditional Auro3D's days are numbered. It's easier to map to various speaker configurations with objects.

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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

That's what I would do; safer than installing height speakers based on guesses about what's coming. Aside from a typical 7-speaker layout (fronts, sides, rears), I would also wire for wides (placed between the fronts and sides).

This is exactly what I will be doing in my room. Already set up for 7.1 with 9.1 capability (heights are down atm) but I will be adding in wides and use them like forward surrounds.

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@Dan Hitchman,

I appreciate the insight that both you and @sdurani have provided regarding this.  You've just saved me quite a bit of 1) Money, 2) Time, 3) Remorse.

Cool! Buyers remorse sucks. tongue.gif

Smart guys worth listening to. smile.gif


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post #36 of 50 Old 05-30-2014, 03:29 PM
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To pass the time until there are actual speaker layout standards "supported by the CEMs", check out the First Draft (version "-0") of Recommendation ITU-R BS.2051-0 (02/2014) Advanced sound system for programme production (link) (direct link to pdf) which details the eight nominal channel|speaker layouts 'floated' by ITU for "next generation broadcast audio systems".

Note that this draft seems only to address channel based and hybrid channel-object based audio in any detail; hopefully more about planned scene based audio standards will be included in future revisions...!
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post #37 of 50 Old 06-06-2014, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

If you are plunking down money for a professionally designed theater I would hold off until we know a little bit more about the industry's plan for advanced surround in the home. Hopefully this year. Don't rush it and then kick yourself in a few months.

.

Ive been redoing my theatre also ( nothing too major ) changing speakers and definitely interested in the new atmos/auro 3d and was trying to find out a layout plan but nothing is concrete as yet. I will wait to see what happens also.

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post #38 of 50 Old 06-06-2014, 09:42 AM
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For initial roll-out, I doubt they would go past the capabilities of current AV receivers, meaning 11.2 outputs (7.1 +4 heights).

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post #39 of 50 Old 06-06-2014, 10:31 AM
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For initial roll-out, I doubt they would go past the capabilities of current AV receivers, meaning 11.2 outputs (7.1 +4 heights).

I can live with that

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post #40 of 50 Old 06-06-2014, 10:40 AM
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For initial roll-out, I doubt they would go past the capabilities of current AV receivers, meaning 11.2 outputs (7.1 +4 heights).

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I can live with that

Yeah that works for me too but it would be even cooler if was 13.1 so people can keep their NeoX layout but with the addition of rear/overhead heights.

I can totally and happily accept 7.1 + quad heights.

Sanjay, do you think it could be quad discrete heights for home? Lately it had sounded like it was just going to be two discrete locations. Whether or not an owner wants to do a small array with two speakers getting the same info. I'm still not sure how all this will work with legacy content but it makes plenty sense for object or height encoded stuff.
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post #41 of 50 Old 06-06-2014, 11:15 AM
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Sanjay, do you think it could be quad discrete heights for home?
If the DTS demos at CES for the last couple years are any indication, their speaker layout (and Dolby's) will likely be quad heights. Coincidentally, this is also the number of heights that Auro feels is necessary (with centre height and overhead VOG being helpful but optional).
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I'm still not sure how all this will work with legacy content but it makes plenty sense for object or height encoded stuff.
For legacy content, I'm guessing updated or newer surround processing from DTS and Dolby that supports scaling the input to upto 11 outputs. For the last two years, the DTS website has been showing a Neo:X speaker configuration of 7.1+4, so maybe that option will finally become a reality on upcoming receivers. Likewise, Dolby might go from 2 heights to 4 heights, though we'll have to see whether it's with PLIIz or some new processing in their AC-4 codec (announced a couple months back at NAB).
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post #42 of 50 Old 06-06-2014, 11:21 AM
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Sounds good but we gotta wait a bit more. tongue.gif

Thanks, Sanjay. smile.gif


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post #43 of 50 Old 06-09-2014, 04:28 AM
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@sdurani , @Scott Simonian , and @SoundChex , quick question:  Couldn’t Object-Oriented audio scale to an Auro 3D setup? So, if I did configure my speakers for Auro 3D now…Object-Oriented Audio should use whatever speaker configuration I have, right?


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post #44 of 50 Old 06-09-2014, 08:12 AM
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@sdurani
 , @Scott Simonian
 , and @SoundChex
 , quick question:  Couldn’t Object-Oriented audio scale to an Auro 3D setup? So, if I did configure my speakers for Auro 3D now…Object-Oriented Audio should use whatever speaker configuration I have, right?

Theoretically, yes. However, we still don't know what the optimal layout should be. For instance, what if they don't include Auro3D in the UHD specs.?

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post #45 of 50 Old 06-09-2014, 08:19 AM
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@sdurani, @Scott Simonian, and @SoundChex, quick question:  Couldn’t Object-Oriented audio scale to an Auro 3D setup? So, if I did configure my speakers for Auro 3D now…Object-Oriented Audio should use whatever speaker configuration I have, right?

In the end, it depends on the capabilities of the specific object audio decoder|renderer . . . but I'd be surprised if any immersive configuration object audio decoder|renderer (outputting to 9.1 speakers or more) did not include support for the Auro-3D 9.1 speaker layout . . . aka Speaker configuration 'D' in Recommendation ITU-R BS.2051-0 (02/2014) Advanced sound system for programme production (link) (direct link to pdf).
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post #46 of 50 Old 06-09-2014, 09:14 AM
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Theoretically, yes. However, we still don't know what the optimal layout should be. For instance, what if they don't include Auro3D in the UHD specs.?

Sorry, forgot to tag you in me previous question!  Hmmm.....Perhaps I’m misunderstanding object-oriented audio a bit.  I was thinking that OOA meant I could literally place speakers anywhere in a room, and a microphone would measure a tone from each speaker to determine where in the room it is, then the processor would map the object accordingly. There will still be optimal layouts for OOA? An example of my understanding is this: If I have three speakers on the cailing in a straight line from front-to-back, an overhead helicopter flight will pan straight  from front-to-back, but if I have 9 overhead speakers arrayed in a 3x3 grid, then any curves of the helicopter's flight path would be captured across that sound grid. 

 

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In the end, it depends on the capabilities of the specific object audio decoder|renderer . . . but I'd be surprised if any immersive configuration object audio decoder|renderer (outputting to 9.1 speakers or more) did not include support for the Auro-3D 9.1 speaker layout . . . aka Speaker configuration 'D' in Recommendation ITU-R BS.2051-0 (02/2014) Advanced sound system for programme production (link) (direct link to pdf).
_

Ah, so it might be likely?  I wonder if the new decoder/renderers (perhaps the term “Pre.Pro” will be replaced by “Dec/Rend”) will be able to do live-mapping, akin to Trinnov.  Might Trinnov become “compatible” with OOA? So many questions are boiling in my brain...

 

 

 

Gentlemen, I thank you for understanding my endless questions.  I’m building my dream theater at a very significant investment and I need it to be cutting-edge.  it seems we are on the precipice of something big, and I want to make sure I make the right choices because there are no do-overs for this theater, Since Auro 3D requires the standard 7-channel config to be lower than normal, I understand that I can’t just start with 7 channels, and upgrade to Auro in the future if I happened to adopt an OOA architecture or something else. Or can I? Does Auro 3D work if the standard 7-channel layer are placed at regular height, as opposed to the "lower" requirement? If not, are the comrpromises huge?

 

Just doing my due diligence—please bear with me. 


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post #47 of 50 Old 06-09-2014, 09:31 AM
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Couldn’t Object-Oriented audio scale to an Auro 3D setup? So, if I did configure my speakers for Auro 3D now…Object-Oriented Audio should use whatever speaker configuration I have, right?
Yes it can, but it has nothing to do with object-based audio. You're asking if incoming sound (channels or objects) can be rendered or mapped to your specific speaker layout. Trinnov has been doing that for years with their re-mapping algorithm.

Until now, pre-pros and receivers knew one thing about speaker location: how far away. So they would adjust level and delay to make all the speakers sound the same distance away. One likely change coming is that those devices will now know another thing about speaker location: what horizontal angle. This will allow them to map sounds (channels or objects) to those speaker locations.

IF there is a speaker where the sound is supposed to be, then the sound will be sent to that speaker. If there isn't a speaker at that location, then the sound can be sent to 2 or 3 nearby speakers to create a phantom image at the intended location. Either way, you hear the sound where it was meant to be heard.

If you do an Auro layout, the floor speakers will be at the same locations as current 5.1 or 7.1 set-ups. The difference between these various formats when it comes to speaker configuration is the number of heights and their locations. How well the Atmos height channels and objects end up re-mapping to your Auro height speaker locations will depend on how well your pre-pro or receiver is able to initially map those locations.

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post #48 of 50 Old 06-09-2014, 09:38 AM
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It all boils down to the implementation of the various technologies necessary for object based surround. If the manufacturers want to continue to be cheap f--kers we may get a very stripped down version of what Atmos and MDA can do. If we want more sophisticated rendering, mapping, auto calibration, etc. that takes a lot more processing horsepower and that means somewhat more expensive chips with the necessary cooling to keep them from malfunctioning. They'll either raise the prices of their gear or they'll balk at the extra manufacturing costs involved.

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post #49 of 50 Old 06-10-2014, 11:27 AM
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From a sound quality standpoint I think the most sensible speaker locations for 11.1 ch is 7.1 + two heights at the sides + front wides, because I think we have limited ability to discern height info at the back of the room, while we can certainly appreciate a more cohesive front/side soundfield.

But I guess for most people it would be easier to add rear heights than wides.

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post #50 of 50 Old 06-10-2014, 01:36 PM
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From a sound quality standpoint I think the most sensible speaker locations for 11.1 ch is 7.1 + two heights at the sides + front wides, because I think we have limited ability to discern height info at the back of the room, while we can certainly appreciate a more cohesive front/side soundfield.

But I guess for most people it would be easier to add rear heights than wides.

Object based 3D surround, at least as envisioned in Atmos theaters, has a height speaker for every side surround speaker. That's how you plot and render the X-Y-Z coordinates of the objects in "space." It gives the sense of height and extra spaciousness. That should be included in the metadata instructions for consumer object soundtracks as well or they're not doing it correctly.

Some of the stripped down demos have had four (2 stereo pair) top/ceiling surrounds along with wide front side surrounds (to fill in the gap between the screen speakers and traditional side wall surround positions). 13.1, essentially. What doesn't make sense is the mono VOG speaker as in some of the Auro 3D diagrams. A monaural point source above your head is very hard for humans to locate properly. The same holds true for a mono back surround. Also, ever listen to thunder outside? It ripples around above your head. Having multiple stereo height speakers will help create those kinds of realistic effects.

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