Panasonic to End Plasma Panel Production By April 2014 - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 392 Old 01-18-2014, 12:43 PM
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I think Plasma died because most consumers like torch lit screens, garish over saturated images that leap off the screen and can fry an egg mid air with comparatively few of us preferring realistic images, smooth motion and deep contrast. That and the fact that 4K is just not a realistic proposition for Plasma technology for a number of reasons.

You can always rely on the general public to make a complete balls up when choosing technology too. It happened with Video (VHS won, Betamax was better) it happened with music (MP3 won, CD is better) and it happened with TV (LCD won, Plasma is better). Blu-ray versus HDDVD was probably the one exception to this rule but even with Blu-ray being the eventual winner of the two people are now opting for 5mb /S streamed HD video rather than 40mb/S that Blu-ray offers. People are generally happy with OK because its cheaper and OK always wins because its profitable. Sad but true I am afraid.

One day Samsung or LG will find a way to make 4K OLED Flat Screened TV's that excite those of us who currently love Plasma but with the market as it is, Panasonic are in deep debt and need to turn the business around. Making components for the high end Business world where quality still counts and engineers have some clout in what is used where, will help them recoup some of their losses.

At least some of us recognise how good Panasonic Plasmas are and can proudly say we own one.
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post #362 of 392 Old 01-18-2014, 01:13 PM
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Preach! 

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post #363 of 392 Old 01-18-2014, 03:16 PM
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The trouble with Panasonic is thus-- their PDPs are far ahead of the ones of their lazy competitors.

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post #364 of 392 Old 01-18-2014, 04:10 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbcdesign View Post

I think Plasma died because most consumers like torch lit screens, garish over saturated images that leap off the screen and can fry an egg mid air with comparatively few of us preferring realistic images, smooth motion and deep contrast. That and the fact that 4K is just not a realistic proposition for Plasma technology for a number of reasons.

You can always rely on the general public to make a complete balls up when choosing technology too. It happened with Video (VHS won, Betamax was better) it happened with music (MP3 won, CD is better) and it happened with TV (LCD won, Plasma is better). Blu-ray versus HDDVD was probably the one exception to this rule but even with Blu-ray being the eventual winner of the two people are now opting for 5mb /S streamed HD video rather than 40mb/S that Blu-ray offers. People are generally happy with OK because its cheaper and OK always wins because its profitable. Sad but true I am afraid.

One day Samsung or LG will find a way to make 4K OLED Flat Screened TV's that excite those of us who currently love Plasma but with the market as it is, Panasonic are in deep debt and need to turn the business around. Making components for the high end Business world where quality still counts and engineers have some clout in what is used where, will help them recoup some of their losses.

At least some of us recognise how good Panasonic Plasmas are and can proudly say we own one.
Some strange nonapplicable analogies here. CD is a physical medium, MP3 is an intangible (data)...CD had a good decade (at least) in the sun before advancements in computing gave MP3 a foothold. Also, Blu-ray did win against HD DVD, but that had more to do with the major players deciding the war than the consumer. The key takeaway in the success of mp3 and video streaming is convenience with "good enough" quality.
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post #365 of 392 Old 01-18-2014, 04:55 PM
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Yeah. I'm not buying that either. Sounds like fanboyism to me. I just came from Best Buy and got a look at their 4k Samsung and OMG, that picture will knock your socks off. Beats Plasmas and LEDs combined. Even in upscale mode. My next TV will definitely be 4k. wink.gif

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post #366 of 392 Old 01-18-2014, 05:45 PM
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Yeah. I'm not buying that either. Sounds like fanboyism to me. .... I just came from Best Buy and got a look at their 4k Samsung and OMG, that picture will knock your socks off. Beats Plasmas and LEDs combined. Even in upscale mode. My next TV will definitely be 4k. wink.gif

I would give the above the benefit of the doubt and presume that it's simply being facetious.
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post #367 of 392 Old 01-19-2014, 05:16 AM
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I would give the above the benefit of the doubt and presume that it's simply being facetious.

smile.gif

Plasma had its day and was good whilst it lasted but better technology always comes along to replace it sooner or later.

And yes bareyb, I too have seen the new 4K sets and the pictures look stunning as you say. I couldn't see the pixels on the Samsung set until I got right up close to the screen. The set I saw though was LCD LED edge lit, I don't know what you saw based on your "beats Plasmas and leds combined" comment. I too am looking forward to getting a 4K set once the specs for UHD have been finalised and OLED is affordable so four years or so I guess.
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post #368 of 392 Old 01-19-2014, 01:40 PM
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smile.gif

Plasma had its day and was good whilst it lasted but better technology always comes along to replace it sooner or later.

And yes bareyb, I too have seen the new 4K sets and the pictures look stunning as you say....

Pray tell how smaller pixels make the "pictures look stunning?"

It's a completely nonsensical claim, particularly since on most common sizes/distance people can barely see the difference between 720 and 1080.

Within the constraints of current sizes, there are other advancements which matter much more than denser pixel count, and most 2k sets don't seem to have them.

The only reason manufacturers are pushing 4k is because it's easy to make with current technology and it's cheap, particularly compared to those more meaningful improvements which can actually be seen. And it makes for easy marketing to hoodwink the gullible into upgrading their current 55" 1080p set to a 55" 2k set.

And frankly, viewing a set on a big-box store floor, with the brightness/colors turned up to eye-bleeding levels, so that it "pops" compared to the rest of the amped up sets, is hardly a meaningful observation.

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post #369 of 392 Old 01-19-2014, 03:38 PM
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With four times as many pixels the detail in the image increases. Also a viewer can get that much closer to the screen before the pixels are visible. Anybody that cannot see the difference at optimum viewing distances between a 1080P image and a 4K image should get their eyesight checked or simply give up and not bother watching high or ultra high definition.

As for your comment about resolution and peoples inability to distinguish between one and another due to screen sizes and viewing distances, agreed exceeding the optimum viewing distance does render resolution improvements less beneficial but I for one set up my TV so that I actually can see the difference between 720P and 1080P and I would suggest people spending the sort of cash that a 4K set requires would do likewise.

I don't need a lesson on the issues with brightness and colours on TV's set up in stores Thank you. Many including me are well aware that they are set to Vivid mode to look good in that environment. It doesn't change the fact that 4K images are more detailed than 1080P images are nobody including you are going to tell me that I am, as a 48 year old Electronics Engineer, incapable of recognising a detailed image when I see one in a retail store or anywhere else for that matter.
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post #370 of 392 Old 01-19-2014, 07:13 PM
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post #371 of 392 Old 01-20-2014, 12:24 AM
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Originally Posted by bareyb View Post

Yeah. I'm not buying that either. Sounds like fanboyism to me. I just came from Best Buy and got a look at their 4k Samsung and OMG, that picture will knock your socks off. Beats Plasmas and LEDs combined. Even in upscale mode. My next TV will definitely be 4k. wink.gif


The framerate was something of a throwback to old LCDs, wasn't it?

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post #372 of 392 Old 01-20-2014, 12:34 AM
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Originally Posted by bareyb View Post

Yeah. I'm not buying that either. Sounds like fanboyism to me. I just came from Best Buy and got a look at their 4k Samsung and OMG, that picture will knock your socks off. Beats Plasmas and LEDs combined. Even in upscale mode. My next TV will definitely be 4k. wink.gif

So I pressume it was an oled. Personally I am mor exited by rec2020, but 4k and oled should be amazing. However for now thr only tv that is reaonably priced and deliver amazing performance are the panasonic plasmas and samsung 8500 plasms. No 4k lcd set released thus far looks as good.
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post #373 of 392 Old 01-20-2014, 02:02 AM - Thread Starter
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So I pressume it was an oled. Personally I am mor exited by rec2020, but 4k and oled should be amazing. However for now thr only tv that is reaonably priced and deliver amazing performance are the panasonic plasmas and samsung 8500 plasms. No 4k lcd set released thus far looks as good.

You won't find any UHD Samsung OLEDs in stores yet, and certainly not in a Best Buy. Currently available UHD/4K TVs are LED-lit LCDs.

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post #374 of 392 Old 01-20-2014, 03:20 AM
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You won't find any UHD Samsung OLEDs in stores yet, and certainly not in a Best Buy. Currently available UHD/4K TVs are LED-lit LCDs.

I didn't think oleds where that common yet and I don't quite follow his statement then.
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post #375 of 392 Old 01-20-2014, 05:42 AM
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I think there is some confusion with OLED and LED due to manufacturers and retailers incorrectly calling LCD screens LED simply because they incorporate LED backlighting. It confuses people and is frankly rather misleading in my opinion but the thinking behind it is a commercial one I guess to try and differentiate the latest LED backlit LCD TV's from earlier non LED backlit models. I have seen local retailers labelling their TVs as LED with hardly any reference to the LCD screen. Gawd knows how ordinary non technically minded people are supposed to understand what they are looking at and buying.
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post #376 of 392 Old 01-20-2014, 06:04 AM
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Fair enough, It was a bit naff on my part saying that I admit. I was just a bit rattled that somebody who doesn't know me from Adam has any business questioning my ability to make a judgement call on Picture quality.
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Fair enough, It was a bit naff on my part saying that I admit. I was just a bit rattled that somebody who doesn't know me from Adam has any business questioning my ability to make a judgement call on Picture quality.

CES 2014 made one thing abundantly obvious to me: Telling 1080p (upscaled or native) apart from UHD was easy to do, including at normal viewing distances.
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post #378 of 392 Old 01-20-2014, 07:17 AM
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CES 2014 made one thing abundantly obvious to me: Telling 1080p (upscaled or native) apart from UHD was easy to do, including at normal viewing distances.

correct me if I misunderstood you, but you are saying the images displayed on a 4k panel were noticeably distinct from the same images displayed on a 2k panel, regardless of the viewing distance?

implied, but not expressly stated, are

1). that the 4k image was easy to discern from a 2k regardless of the panel size?

2) that the use of the word "easy" infers that the 4k image was superior to the comparable 2k images you viewed in some manner(s)?

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post #379 of 392 Old 01-20-2014, 07:38 AM - Thread Starter
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correct me if I misunderstood you, but you are saying the images displayed on a 4k panel were noticeably distinct from the same images displayed on a 2k panel, regardless of the viewing distance?

implied, but not expressly stated, are

1). that the 4k image was easy to discern from a 2k regardless of the panel size?

2) that the use of the word "easy" infers that the 4k image was superior to the comparable 2k images you viewed in some manner(s)?

Certainly not "regardless of viewing distance," nor "regardless of panel size." In the context of the show and the 2014 TVs on display, I'm talking about a 65"+ UHDTV viewed from 8-11 feet (normal) or closer. With smaller displays viewed from a typical desktop computer monitor distance, the difference was even easier to see.

The exact distance where one starts to see a benefit from 4K/UHD varies from person to person depending on the acuity of their vision. That said, seeing the difference between 1080p and UHD struck me as easier to do than some charts would imply. I've felt that way for almost a year, as I keep running into 4K/UHD TVs. CES 2014 just happened to be full of UHDTVs.

The same observation is not true for the leap up to 8K UHD, which requires close scrutiny of a huge screen in order to see all of the detail.

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post #380 of 392 Old 01-20-2014, 11:36 AM
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Certainly not "regardless of viewing distance," nor "regardless of panel size."....

The bottom line is that if someone does not see the individual pixels on their current 1080p screen, viewed from their usual distance, than they are not going see any difference due to increased resolution of a 4k unit of the same size.

Arguing the opposite is like claiming that while while one cannot see a 2x2 frame at a 1000 yards, they can definitely see four 1x1 frames stacked together to create the same shape.

Absent noticeable pixels in 1080p, any differences between 1080 and 2k screens would have to be due to either different settings or processing, or to a placebo effect.

I do find the charts useful, since they are based on actual research, as opposed to what individuals think they can see, even if sincere.
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post #381 of 392 Old 01-20-2014, 11:38 AM - Thread Starter
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The bottom line is that if you do not see the individual pixels on your current 1080p screen, viewed from your usual distance, than you are not going see any difference due to increased resolution of a 4k unit of the same size.

Arguing the opposite is like claiming that while while you cannot see a 2x2 frame at a 1000 yards, you can definitely see four 1x1 frames stacked together to create the same shape.

Absent noticeable pixels in 1080p, any differences between 1080 and 2k screens would have to be due to either different settings or processing, or to a placebo effect.

I do find the charts useful, since they are based on actual research, as opposed to what individuals think they can see, even if sincere.

There's more to resolution than seeing (or not seeing) the dot pattern on a grid made of squares, such as diagonal resolution and aliasing. I've found real-world experience is a great accompaniment to charts, your mileage may vary.

Ultimately, there is a point where everyone's vision will fail them—that is beyond debate. Defining that point is not as easy as looking it up in a book, because there are so many variables involved. Each individual should make their own judgement, and that judgement should include some sort of real-life comparison.
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post #382 of 392 Old 01-20-2014, 11:54 AM
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I used to have a 65VT60. It was horrid. The dithering make me crazy and the buzzing was distracting. Also the heat and electricity usage was stupid. Then I traded that in for a 65es8000 HD tv and now have a 65f9000 UHD tv. The increased clarity, sharpness and detail is night and day. I'm blown away watching the UHD tv. I have 20/20 vision and my seating position is 12' from the tv. Guests that come to my home and see the tv on, ask immediately what brand the tv is because it looks so beautiful. And that's just upconverted 1080 fios! When I show them native 4K content, they are blown away. It's the most amazing picture anyone has ever seen.

The difference is like going from DVD to Blu-Ray in my opinion. And like going from Dolby 5.1 to Dobly TrueHD sound! Night and day!
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post #383 of 392 Old 01-20-2014, 12:51 PM
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Do you live in high elevations?

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Plasma dithering isn't visible from 12 feet out with normal (20/20) vision. The electricity usage is greater than that of LCD, but you are exaggerating the difference.
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post #385 of 392 Old 01-20-2014, 02:06 PM
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I used to have a 65VT60. It was horrid.... now have a 65f9000 UHD tv. The increased clarity, sharpness and detail is night and day. I'm blown away watching the UHD tv. I have 20/20 vision and my seating position is 12' from the tv....

The difference is like going from DVD to Blu-Ray in my opinion. And like going from Dolby 5.1 to Dobly TrueHD sound! Night and day!

Yep. "Horrid" is an apt word to describe the 65VT60.... rolleyes.gif

And biology be damned. You are sitting at least over 4 feet further from your 65" screen than 2k would even begin to be apparent to the average 20/20 viewer, according to accepted resolution charts, but the difference to you is "like going from DVD to Blu-Ray!"

Do the extra pixels open up the sound stage too?
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post #386 of 392 Old 01-20-2014, 03:24 PM
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Yep. "Horrid" is an apt word to describe the 65VT60.... rolleyes.gif

And biology be damned. You are sitting at least over 4 feet further from your 65" screen than 2k would even begin to be apparent to the average 20/20 viewer, according to accepted resolution charts, but the difference to you is "like going from DVD to Blu-Ray!"

Do the extra pixels open up the sound stage too?

The vt60 is horrid, if used in direct sunlight. tongue.gif
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post #387 of 392 Old 01-20-2014, 11:39 PM
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Do the extra pixels open up the sound stage too?

 

lol I laughed. 

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post #388 of 392 Old 01-21-2014, 07:28 PM
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lol good stuff


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post #389 of 392 Old 01-22-2014, 09:27 AM
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I feel like I'm back in the DVD vs Blu-ray days. "I can't see the difference so neither can anybody else. It is all placebo. Blu-Ray doesn't sound better either, just turn your volume down".
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post #390 of 392 Old 01-23-2014, 07:46 PM
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I feel like I'm back in the DVD vs Blu-ray days. "I can't see the difference so neither can anybody else. It is all placebo. Blu-Ray doesn't sound better either, just turn your volume down".

Umm...if you couldnt tell the difference between DVDs and Blu-rays then either your tv was too small or sat too far away
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