Sony and Panasonic Scuttle OLED Effort - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 107 Old 12-24-2013, 03:39 PM - Thread Starter
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It's not going to be a happy holiday for OLED fans, with news that a planned production partnership between Panasonic and Sony is not going to happen. The two companies had announced plans to co-develop a high-yield manufacturing process for UHD OLED panels.


CES 2013 brought the hope of a joint OLED effort from Sony and Panasonic - picture from Nikkei Asian Review
Quote:
"They were unable to make the panels durable enough, nor to cut production costs. The electronics firms decided not to renew their tie-up contract when it expires at the end of the year, and will instead pursue development independently." source: Nikkei Asian Review

I have heard a lot of feedback from people who dislike the curved screen sported by the current crop of OLEDS. Another issue is that current OLEDs are only 1080p, yet cost more than larger LED UHDTV models. Could OLED make a comeback, or is too late?
Quote:
"U.S. research firm NPD DisplaySearch downgraded its global shipment estimates for OLED TVs on Tuesday, cutting this year's figure to 5,000 from 20,000 and 2017's forecast to 4 million from 9 million." source: Nikkei Asian Review

OLED sales have failed to meet expectations, while LED-lit UHDTVs have exploded in popularity. What will happen when OLED prices drop and larger screen sizes become available? Is it possible that OLED will totally flop in the marketplace, suffering a fate similar to plasma by earning top ratings from reviewers—yet failing to capture consumer's imagination?
Quote:
"Meanwhile, 4K TVs, which boast four times the resolution of high-definition displays, are rapidly taking off, with 1.95 million units shipped this year, according to DisplaySearch. The firm expects this figure to reach 60.65 million by 2017, accounting for more than 20% of all LCD TVs." source: Nikkei Asian Review

One thing seems likely, I don't expect to see any new OLED TVs from either Sony or Panasonic at CES 2014.

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post #2 of 107 Old 12-25-2013, 12:42 AM
 
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It'd been pretty quiet on that front since it was first announced...OLED fans are used to overpromise and underdelivery. What's more concerning is Panasonic's future in the consumer display market.
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post #3 of 107 Old 12-25-2013, 10:03 PM
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Ugh! What the hell?!

Well that's going to stall up the development of OLED tech as a whole. rolleyes.gif

Of course OLED sales are not up to expectations. First of all, they are still WAY too expensive. Second, the products pretty much DON'T EXIST!! It's going to be tough to get new display tech off the ground if no one can either afford it or don't even know it's an option.
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post #4 of 107 Old 12-25-2013, 10:47 PM
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And the wait continues........


Those LCD UHD sales bother me a little bit.

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post #5 of 107 Old 12-26-2013, 06:25 AM
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What's with rational behind the curved screen? Isn't that counter productive as far as viewing off axis?
Also, isn't it better if both companies develop separately as in more competition? After all, neither stated they would actually drop development. wink.gif

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post #6 of 107 Old 12-26-2013, 06:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by videobruce View Post

What's with rational behind the curved screen? Isn't that counter productive as far as viewing off axis?
Also, isn't it better if both companies develop separately as in more competition? After all, neither stated they would actually drop development. wink.gif

It's hard to justify a curved screen at smaller sizes. The current explanation: curved screens set OLED apart from other technologies. However, Sony, LG and Samsung all have curved LED-lit TVs now.

I doubt either company will spend much on OLED development with LED-lit UHD screens selling so well—500X better, according to the stat in the article. If image quality was king, plasma would no be fading to black.

CES will provide a hint as to Sony and Panasonic's future plans.
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post #7 of 107 Old 12-26-2013, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

It's hard to justify a curved screen at smaller sizes. The current explanation: curved screens set OLED apart from other technologies. However, Sony, LG and Samsung all have curved LED-lit TVs now.

I doubt either company will spend much on OLED development with LED-lit UHD screens selling so well—500X better, according to the stat in the article. If image quality was king, plasma would no be fading to black.

CES will provide a hint as to Sony and Panasonic's future plans.
Well Mark will see what happens in 2014
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post #8 of 107 Old 12-26-2013, 12:20 PM
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Not the best news mad.gif

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post #9 of 107 Old 12-26-2013, 12:20 PM
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I hope this doesn't indicate a general decline in OLED R&D (for more options and lower prices in the future).

I'm not "anti" UHD, but so far the colors/blacks/off-axis-viewing on the UHD's I've seen is just plain awful. More resolution at the cost of color accuracy isn't an attractive trade off to me, guess I'll be sticking with my Panny VT60 for a longer than I thought ...
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post #10 of 107 Old 12-26-2013, 12:38 PM
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I don't understand what Panasonic is doing by abandoning displays altogether. Consumers who demand high picture quality are screwed in an LCD only world.
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post #11 of 107 Old 12-26-2013, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by videobruce View Post

What's with rational behind the curved screen? Isn't that counter productive as far as viewing off axis?
Also, isn't it better if both companies develop separately as in more competition? After all, neither stated they would actually drop development. wink.gif

I recall reading somewhere a few months ago that the screens were (initially, anyway) curved out of technical necessity...something to do with improved yields, or something like that. Wish I could remember which tech site it was so I could post it here, but now that curved screens are "in vogue" it doesn't really matter anyway. I just hope OLED doesn't go the way of SED...

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post #12 of 107 Old 12-26-2013, 01:04 PM
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Not good news. I was really hoping for something to have the the deep blacks of a Plasma without the major drawbacks of image retention. No plans to ditch my Panasonic Plasma any time soon but the sooner superior tech hits mass market the sooner prices drop to reasonable levels.
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post #13 of 107 Old 12-26-2013, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

It's not going to be a happy holiday for OLED fans, with news that a planned production partnership between Panasonic and Sony is not going to happen. The two companies had announced plans to co-develop a high-yield manufacturing process for UHD OLED panels.


CES 2013 brought the hope of a joint OLED effort from Sony and Panasonic - picture from Nikkei Asian Review
I have heard a lot of feedback from people who dislike the curved screen sported by the current crop of OLEDS. Another issue is that current OLEDs are only 1080p, yet cost more than larger LED UHDTV models. Could OLED make a comeback, or is too late?
OLED sales have failed to meet expectations, while LED-lit UHDTVs have exploded in popularity. What will happen when OLED prices drop and larger screen sizes become available? Is it possible that OLED will totally flop in the marketplace, suffering a fate similar to plasma by earning top ratings from reviewers—yet failing to capture consumer's imagination?
One thing seems likely, I don't expect to see any new OLED TVs from either Sony or Panasonic at CES 2014.

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I wonder if Vizio, the current American king of HDTVs, will announce 4k sets at CES 2014. According to their facebook page, that's not the case. I'm happy with my 42 inch smart tv with blurry 3d.
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post #14 of 107 Old 12-26-2013, 01:49 PM
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Note to self...Panasonic stock now in the "sell"'column.
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post #15 of 107 Old 12-26-2013, 02:04 PM
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I wonder if Vizio, the current American king of HDTVs, will announce 4k sets at CES 2014. According to their facebook page, that's not the case. I'm happy with my 42 inch smart tv with blurry 3d.

I thought Samsung still sold more sets in the US? I know globally they sell more than all the Japanese companies together!

As for 4k: it's the manufacturers answer to a question consumers didn't ask. While I don't predict interest in 4k will dwindle the way 3d did I do expect plenty of 'disappointed' sales figures as I really see 4k going nowhere for the time being.

It's sad, as a plasma fan I was hoping OLED could replace the glut of oversized, blurry, washed out LCDs dominating the market but it appears the consumer has spoken and what the consumer wants is **** displays. Hopefully, samsung has enough money to throw at OLED to develop it further. It's not like it's dead end tech: mobile devices use OLED and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.

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post #16 of 107 Old 12-26-2013, 02:06 PM
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Note to self...Panasonic stock now in the "sell"'column.

Really?

You must not pay much attention to the stock market because a manufacturer closing the arm of it's business that loses the most money is typically seen as a positive for investors! smile.gif

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post #17 of 107 Old 12-26-2013, 02:11 PM
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it appears the consumer has spoken and what the consumer wants is **** displays.
What would you expect from someone that buys a LCD TV because it was mis-advertised as a "LED" TV.
Now that all LCD TV's are being called "LED" I wonder what scam the CEA will come up with to sell the next batch of LCD sets? I think they are running out of marketing gimmicks wink.gif

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post #18 of 107 Old 12-26-2013, 03:11 PM
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Why did Panasonic drop plasma? Because they see the future market is OLED. 4K or Ultra will be part of the build. Breaking off with Sony gives them the independence to do it their way. It may seem this divorce is a bad thing - it may be just the opposite.
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post #19 of 107 Old 12-26-2013, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kascnef82 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

It's not going to be a happy holiday for OLED fans, with news that a planned production partnership between Panasonic and Sony is not going to happen. The two companies had announced plans to co-develop a high-yield manufacturing process for UHD OLED panels.


CES 2013 brought the hope of a joint OLED effort from Sony and Panasonic - picture from Nikkei Asian Review
I have heard a lot of feedback from people who dislike the curved screen sported by the current crop of OLEDS. Another issue is that current OLEDs are only 1080p, yet cost more than larger LED UHDTV models. Could OLED make a comeback, or is too late?
OLED sales have failed to meet expectations, while LED-lit UHDTVs have exploded in popularity. What will happen when OLED prices drop and larger screen sizes become available? Is it possible that OLED will totally flop in the marketplace, suffering a fate similar to plasma by earning top ratings from reviewers—yet failing to capture consumer's imagination?
One thing seems likely, I don't expect to see any new OLED TVs from either Sony or Panasonic at CES 2014.

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I wonder if Vizio, the current American king of HDTVs, will announce 4k sets at CES 2014. According to their facebook page, that's not the case. I'm happy with my 42 inch smart tv with blurry 3d.

Makes no difference to me since they make such a poor quality product.
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post #20 of 107 Old 12-26-2013, 04:04 PM
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Why did Panasonic drop plasma? Because they see the future market is OLED. 4K or Ultra will be part of the build. Breaking off with Sony gives them the independence to do it their way. It may seem this divorce is a bad thing - it may be just the opposite.

It's true that plasma is nearly impossible to make in 4k for anything less than a luxury German automobile but that's a small part of why panasonic abandoned plasma-- or rather, that's the 'saving face' reason.

The real reason is the Japanese are getting slaughtered by the Koreans (and soon to be Chinese) on economies of scale and also thanks to a **** economy which has hurt the export based business model of Japanese consumer electronic giants more than anyone during this recession.

Bottom line: panasonic can't sell plasmas for the same reason pioneer couldn't: they don't make enough on the cheap sets and consumers won't pony up the dough for the expensive sets. Whether or not plasma is still a viable tech or whether or not OLED can be brought to bear in this environment is a question of economics and the reality of supply and demand more than it is a question of what is technologically feasible or what's 'best'.

I've spoke at length about how useless 4k is and I won't go back into that here but suffice to say: quality is going to be tougher and tougher to find in this segment. There is a precedent being borne out here and it's not exactly sunny news for those of us who count ourselves as enthusiasts.

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post #21 of 107 Old 12-26-2013, 04:09 PM
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Vizio is number 2, Samsung is number 1. If I am not mistaken Samsung has a 14% lead on Vizio, and Samsung has had that #1 spot for 3 years. In my opinion, the only reason Vizio does so well is that its so cheap, its not due to quality of picture. I work in electronics sales, and have a Vizio right next to a Samsung F6300, and the Sony 850 (non UHD) on the other side, and then the Samsung F8500 plasma right be low it. There is no comparison. Now the M series stuff might look ok, but I don't know.
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post #22 of 107 Old 12-26-2013, 05:52 PM
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I thought Samsung still sold more sets in the US? I know globally they sell more than all the Japanese companies together!

It's sad, as a plasma fan I was hoping OLED could replace the glut of oversized, blurry, washed out LCDs dominating the market but it appears the consumer has spoken and what the consumer wants is **** displays. Hopefully, samsung has enough money to throw at OLED to develop it further. It's not like it's dead end tech: mobile devices use OLED and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.

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OLED would probably kill both of them - but what about this New Dolby System for Video - will be interesting as to the CES comments about it.

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post #23 of 107 Old 12-26-2013, 05:53 PM
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I recall reading somewhere a few months ago that the screens were (initially, anyway) curved out of technical necessity...something to do with improved yields, or something like that. Wish I could remember which tech site it was so I could post it here, but now that curved screens are "in vogue" it doesn't really matter anyway. I just hope OLED doesn't go the way of SED...
The curved screen has no relationship to yield unless the bending process cracks the screen. The bending takes place after the full sheet of glass has been proceessed and been cut into individual screen sizes which are currently 55".
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post #24 of 107 Old 12-26-2013, 07:13 PM
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yeah I wasnt expecting much until 2015 anyways...

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And the wait continues........


Those LCD UHD sales bother me a little bit.

They are shipments not sales. Just because products are shipped to retailers doesn't mean they have been sold. Nonetheless, it seems that the industry is pushing 1080p out the door.

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post #26 of 107 Old 12-27-2013, 09:13 AM
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seems like sony played that one pretty well.

wonder if Panasonic would have stopped plasma production without this partnership in hand. now Panasonic is left with LCD only, and from what I've seen, they make TERRIBLE LCD's.

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post #27 of 107 Old 12-27-2013, 10:02 AM
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UHd seems to make Oled a more risky gamble. It's a shame though since UHd makes less of an impact on the PQ than oled does from what I've seen. I'm also concerned the new formats will be backwards steps with motion handling that will just be augmented by beefier processors for artificial motion smoothers (soe ).
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post #29 of 107 Old 12-27-2013, 02:52 PM
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Good Grief,

i was looking forward to oled hd.  


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post #30 of 107 Old 12-27-2013, 04:39 PM
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Damn!!mad.gif Bad news bigtime! I was really excited for Sony and Panny making an OLED. This is definitly not good for the OLED camp.

Crazy how many UHD sets are selling. Not like theres any 4K content. Most people are buying them prolly because they are the flagship sets of the lines. Not this guy tho. Only thing that will replace my Kuro in the living room with be and OLED if they ever drop in price. First lots of models need to come out tho and this news is definitly hindering that.

OLED brings the promise of better PQ unlike more resolution of UHD sets which isn't something we really need. The deeper blacks of the OLEDs is whats advancing the state of the art IMO. I hope both Sony and Panasonic continue to develop OLED tech.

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