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post #31 of 44 Old 03-13-2014, 02:34 PM
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So did my old Sony. I had to use an LG LST4200A for the digital tuner but that was basically the same thing as connecting directly to the tv. Coax to the 4200A, DVI/composite out to the tv. The 4200A didn't have a DVR. It was HDTV tuner only. And a damn fine good one I might add.
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post #32 of 44 Old 03-13-2014, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by NetworkTV View Post

... As far as TiVo, that's not true at all.

For one thing, you can buy a lifetime subscription for a single one time fee and never pay them another dime. ...

Unfortunately the lifetime subscription is not really lifetime. If the device fails, or becomes obsolete, the subscription is tied to that device and dies also. (Lot's of folks who owned TiVo boxes pre digital OTA got burned.) TiVo also has a planned 5 year obsolescence built into their "lifetime" subscription (they can decide to no longer support a device after 5 years, including supplying a broadcast schedule in a fornat the device can read). The TiVo forums have more details (and rants) on this.
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post #33 of 44 Old 03-14-2014, 10:20 AM
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Unfortunately the lifetime subscription is not really lifetime. If the device fails, or becomes obsolete, the subscription is tied to that device and dies also. (Lot's of folks who owned TiVo boxes pre digital OTA got burned.) TiVo also has a planned 5 year obsolescence built into their "lifetime" subscription (they can decide to no longer support a device after 5 years, including supplying a broadcast schedule in a fornat the device can read). The TiVo forums have more details (and rants) on this.
Again, not true.

The lifetime subscription is tied to the box only if you opt to upgrade. If it dies, they'll replace it. My father had a box for 6 years when the hard drive died. He called them up and only had to pay for shipping to get a replacement. His lifetime subscription continued with the new one.

Now, if he chose to upgrade to a new box without the old one breaking, he'd have to get a new subscription.

This is similar to what happens with DirecTV. If the equipment dies, they replace it without penalty. If you choose to upgrade working equipment, you have to start a new service contract.

BTW: his old and current boxes were/are both old analog models. He gets guide data just fine. Since his cable company still offers analog service and his TV is an older CRT, he has no reason to upgrade unless the current box dies.

Having said that, I do think that Tivo should offer some kind of upgrade discount to previous customers with analog equipment. Just getting those older boxes out of circulation that still require phone support would help cut their overhead and likely actually save them money.

Further, by treating long time customers well, they tend to convince their friends to become new customers. Treating loyal customers like new customers tends to make them more likely to become someone else's customer - and less likely to help sell the product.
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post #34 of 44 Old 03-14-2014, 11:57 AM
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I've read the comparison to the slingbox at the brothers house before. Since you're paying him, isn't your brother setting himself up as a cable company with a single customer? If not, when does he become a “business”? When he has 2 customers? 50? 200?
I think of the argument a bit like this.. Two little girls have competing lemon-aid stands. One girl buys her lemon-aid from the store at 75 cents a bottle, and sells it on the street for a dollar. The other girl can sell her lemon-aid for a quarter because she gets it by shoplifting! When asked if she thought that was okay, she replied “Sure, they give out free samples in the store. I'm just giving out the free samples and charging for the convenience of the drive-up!”
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post #35 of 44 Old 03-14-2014, 12:58 PM
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I've read the comparison to the slingbox at the brothers house before. Since you're paying him, isn't your brother setting himself up as a cable company with a single customer? If not, when does he become a “business”? When he has 2 customers? 50? 200?
I think of the argument a bit like this.. Two little girls have competing lemon-aid stands. One girl buys her lemon-aid from the store at 75 cents a bottle, and sells it on the street for a dollar. The other girl can sell her lemon-aid for a quarter because she gets it by shoplifting! When asked if she thought that was okay, she replied “Sure, they give out free samples in the store. I'm just giving out the free samples and charging for the convenience of the drive-up!”
None of what you posted would be legal except for the girl who buys bottles of lemonade and sells them at a profit.

In the first case, your brother would be selling copyrighted material without permission. Now, if he simply let you tap into his slingbox, then it would fall under fair use do to "inconsequential use", much like making a mix tape (or mix CD or even mix tracks on an MP3 player) would be. Technically, fair use only covers the brother using the slingbox, but it's unlikely anyone would pursue the issue. Now, if he opened it up to you and your friends, that might get him in trouble once the number starts growing.

The above is kind of why HBO doesn't go after people who share their "Go" subscriptions. The returns diminish too quickly: 1) The people sharing likely wouldn't pay for a subscription anyway, so HBO isn't going to get any money from them if stopped and 2) it's not enough people to worry about it and 3) if HBO gets some subscribers they didn't previously have due to the buzz, that's good for them.

In the case of Aereo, it's unlikely the OTA station will gain anything since Aereo viewers aren't being rated. In fact, if people choose Aereo over other countable methods, the opposite becomes true. Just watching doesn't count. You have to be counted to count. Gaining an Aereo viewer doesn't allow the network to sell that viewer to the advertiser, unlike with HBO who might get a paying customer out of the deal from someone who doesn't have a buddy with a Go subscription to share.

Generally, fair use covers sharing of media within all members of a household. That means all the members of the Brady family (even including Alice, since she spends a good deal of time in the home) can watch a movie at home and it falls within the license agreement. However, if you invited that many people over not related to you, that becomes a public performance. That group of friends doesn't have a license to utilize the media purchased for your home, so a group of them is considered the public.

Now, sharing media between individual friends is generally acceptable, assuming you don't watch or listen to a copy of it while it's being loaned out. You can only use as many copies as you have a license for.

In the case of charging for access to the slingbox, this would likely come down to a violation of the user agreement, much like sharing your cable or internet service with someone outside of your household. Granted, odds are that you'd never get caught unless it involved a bunch of sling boxes all rented out to a bunch of customers.

As far as your lemonade example, as noted, only the girl buying bottles and reselling them is doing something legal. She bought the bottles legally and is free to do with them as she pleases. The only time that is not legal is when the product is an item specifically given to you under a contract not to be resold, such as a review sample, items that are separated from a larger package and do not contain proper retail labeling or certain substances like prescription drugs or hazardous materials.

The girl that is shoplifting is not only guilty of theft, but distributing stolen property regardless of whether she charges for it.

Even if they actually were samples, 1) they likely are a size can't be legally resold due to lack of retail labeling and 2) the store likely has a rule about how many samples a customer is entitled to, much like "all you can eat" restaurants don't allow you to remove food from the store.

Again, though, other than the actual shoplifting, none of the examples would be likely to face actual legal prosecution. In the case of the free samples, the store would likely tell the girl to take a hike and not allow her to have any more samples.
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post #36 of 44 Old 03-14-2014, 02:54 PM
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Generally, fair use covers sharing of media within all members of a household. That means all the members of the Brady family (even including Alice, since she spends a good deal of time in the home) can watch a movie at home and it falls within the license agreement. However, if you invited that many people over not related to you, that becomes a public performance. That group of friends doesn't have a license to utilize the media purchased for your home, so a group of them is considered the public.

We had a conversation very much like that this morning around the kitchen table. My daughter lives away from home. We subsidize her while she is going to school. She has a satellite service which we pay for but it's at her residence and in her name. When she comes home, we use her HBO Go and then it's just with her and us. We don't invite the neighborhood for example to watch. How would that fall under fair use? Would that still be "illegal" because even though her satellite subscription is under her name at her residence, we pay for it. Isn't the idea of HBO Go so that you can view it outside of your home? And being as she is immediate family, couldn't we watch it at times in our home even if she wasn't there?
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post #37 of 44 Old 03-14-2014, 03:46 PM
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Wording in the HBO Go license does prohibit the account holder from sharing their account with others, but I'm sure HBO is not loosing sleep over it since they limit the number of active streams to three at a time. Much like Netflix allow for two simultaneous streams with a personal account. If you want more, the more expensive family plan will get you four simultaneous streams.
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post #38 of 44 Old 03-15-2014, 12:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post

We had a conversation very much like that this morning around the kitchen table. My daughter lives away from home. We subsidize her while she is going to school. She has a satellite service which we pay for but it's at her residence and in her name. When she comes home, we use her HBO Go and then it's just with her and us. We don't invite the neighborhood for example to watch. How would that fall under fair use? Would that still be "illegal" because even though her satellite subscription is under her name at her residence, we pay for it. Isn't the idea of HBO Go so that you can view it outside of your home? And being as she is immediate family, couldn't we watch it at times in our home even if she wasn't there?
Technically, it's intended for her use, but HBO has made it clear they aren't going to be that picky. They tolerate uses that are much more ambiguous than your scenario. In this case, it's their own app and they know how many users use it, so they can claim those streams as their own when they say how many people watched a show. Therefore, it's easier for them to justify allowing those uses.

Plus, when crashes happen, like with True Detective, it makes potential paying customers wonder what their missing. In that case, instead of being a negative story, it gets written up as a win for HBO.

Right now, since Aereo viewers aren't tracked in the ratings, it offers no such benefit to the networks or local stations.
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post #39 of 44 Old 03-15-2014, 09:09 AM
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I live outside Chicago. Aereo was supposed to be available in the Chicago area September, 2013. I can't remember for certain when they said they weren't going to make that date, but it was well after the supposed introduction date. All they said was that they were having technical difficulties. If Aereo's handling of this delay will be any indication of the way that they are going to handle customer service, I don't think they are going to be much better than the cable/dish companies.

Absolutely can not get any information further information from their website. No response to any questions.

They have a Facebook page. They will tell everyone about this new market that they're going into. Tell you about other markets they will be going into. 

I posted a couple of things about the Chicago market and commenting that they needed to at least tell people what was going on in Chicago. After my second comment, they blocked me from posting anything else.

I've been in sales nearly all of my life. I know that everyone has problems. I also know that you are best served when you first recognize the problem to tell your customer what is going on and what steps you are taking to either give partial product/service, or when you expect everything to be there. 

Aereo's simple stonewalling of information for Chicago is NOT a good sign.

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post #40 of 44 Old 03-15-2014, 10:05 AM
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Technically, it's intended for her use, but HBO has made it clear they aren't going to be that picky. They tolerate uses that are much more ambiguous than your scenario. In this case, it's their own app and they know how many users use it, so they can claim those streams as their own when they say how many people watched a show. Therefore, it's easier for them to justify allowing those uses.

Thanks. I'm not a purist or goody-two shoes by any means but I do feel uncomfortable about using a service that I don't pay for, but in this case, I am paying for it, just not at my residence ,so it's an odd scenario for us. I'm certainly not suggesting that others "borrow" someone else's login for HBO Go because of the open restrictions.
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post #41 of 44 Old 03-15-2014, 11:29 AM
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Thanks. I'm not a purist or goody-two shoes by any means but I do feel uncomfortable about using a service that I don't pay for, but in this case, I am paying for it, just not at my residence ,so it's an odd scenario for us. I'm certainly not suggesting that others "borrow" someone else's login for HBO Go because of the open restrictions.
In your case, I doubt HBO would even really consider you in violation.

Now, in my case, I'm one of those that might find a way to test drive something before committing to buy, but if something is valuable enough to me to want it, I'll pony up the money. I've paid for shareware I legally didn't have to and have made donations to groups that create content or resources I use. If it's not worth paying for when I'm supposed to, I simply don't use it.

Honestly, while I don't condone piracy, I've found it nice to sample music on YouTube, despite not all of it being there legitimately. I used to do the same thing back before the P2P crackdowns. If I like what I hear, I buy it. If I don't, it's gone. I've bought more music that way than I ever did when I couldn't do that. 30 second samples suck on places like Amazon. If the record companies had a way to sample their product beginning to end, they would definitely get more business from me. As it is, I don't buy if I can't fully test drive it. At least with movies, I can rent them via Netflix for little commitment prior to spending money to own it.

I wouldn't buy shoes without trying them on and wouldn't buy a car without taking it out on the road.

I'm done blind buying music or movies.

Now, in the case of Aereo, if they had an agreement with the networks while offering the same service, I might consider subbing to them rather than going the Sling Box route if I found myself want to watch TV on a portable device.

Personally, If I had my preference, I'd rather do it through a party I already subscribe to like Netflix, Hulu or Amazon. I'm not sure the locals on my tablet are worth $8 a month. That's what I pay for all the content on Netflix. However, a couple extra bucks on a Hulu Plus subscription, you betcha.
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post #42 of 44 Old 03-15-2014, 07:28 PM
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Again, not true.

The lifetime subscription is tied to the box only if you opt to upgrade. If it dies, they'll replace it. My father had a box for 6 years when the hard drive died. He called them up and only had to pay for shipping to get a replacement. His lifetime subscription continued with the new one....

In the situation you described the unit is repairable and has not "failed" (just something easy like a replacing the HD). My comment is indeed true if the unit fails and is unrepairable (something like the motherboard or video chip failing). In this case the lifetime subscription dies with the unit.
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... BTW: his old and current boxes were/are both old analog models. He gets guide data just fine ...

Glad that is working for him, but this is not true for all the analog TiVo boxes.
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....Further, by treating long time customers well, they tend to convince their friends to become new customers. ...

You would think. As I mentioned before, check out the TiVo forums or do a search - the TiVo "lifetime" subscriptions are only guaranteed support for 5 years, by TiVo's own admission.
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post #43 of 44 Old 03-16-2014, 02:00 AM
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In the situation you described the unit is repairable and has not "failed" (just something easy like a replacing the HD). My comment is indeed true if the unit fails and is unrepairable (something like the motherboard or video chip failing). In this case the lifetime subscription dies with the unit.
It shouldn't matter. When something fails, they send a replacement, refurbished unit. You then pack the old one in the box it arrives in and send it back. They don't replace the hard drive in the old unit and send it back. You get a completely different unit.

I have a friend whose power supply failed and they sent a replacement unit.

If someone isn't getting that treatment, something else is going on.
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Glad that is working for him, but this is not true for all the analog TiVo boxes.
It should be, unless someone doesn't have a wired phone connection. Without that, you can't get the guide data on some units. Some units let you plug in an ethernet adapter as an alternative, but if you had a phone line only model and don't have a lnad line, you're screwed. However, that's not TiVo's fault.
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You would think. As I mentioned before, check out the TiVo forums or do a search - the TiVo "lifetime" subscriptions are only guaranteed support for 5 years, by TiVo's own admission.
I can't really comment on TiVo's stance since I haven't looked that far into it, but I've never known anyone who had an issue beyond 5 years. Perhaps maybe those people on the TiVo forums simply need to be nicer when they call the CSRs...
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post #44 of 44 Old 03-20-2014, 08:26 PM
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[quote name="NetworkTV" url="/t/1521968/aereo-wins

Having said that, I do think that Tivo should offer some kind of upgrade discount to previous customers with analog equipment. Just getting those older boxes out of circulation that still require phone support would help cut their overhead and likely actually save them money.

Further, by treating long time customers well, they tend to convince their friends to become new customers. Treating loyal customers like new customers tends to make them more likely to become someone else's customer - and less likely to help sell the product.[/quote]

Sometimes they do offer a discount I got one when I went from a Series 2 to a Tivo Premiere awhile back.

"Bring out yer dead!".."Wait I'm not dead yet!"..(Sound Austrian here) "WRONG !!" (You know what happens next..)
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