Facebook & Oculus VR: The Future of Personal Home Theater? - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 91 Old 03-31-2014, 01:05 PM
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If people use this as an E-reader, it brings a whole new meaning to "Facebook". It makes perfect sense that Facebook would invest in this. wink.gif
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post #62 of 91 Old 03-31-2014, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

I can't see how they can pull off full positional motion tracking with pre-recorded media.

 

Doesn’t matter if it's prerecorded or on the fly, the Oculus Rift is just pushing pixels through it's HDMI interface. Either way, believe it or not, they're already experimenting with 360 degree movies and virtual movie theaters. Seriously, just do a google search on oculus rift and movies/movie theater.

 

I think the important question, and sort of going back to the original post, are we going to watch all our virtual movies (or participate in any other virtual social endeavor) via some Facebook controlled platform? That's what I interpret Facebook meaning when it says it wants to eventually develop a platform for this device. The business model is controlling access and selling your personal data it gets by watching what you do.

 

I want options. I want to be able purchase a song from somewhere other then the apple store if I have an apple product. I want to move my amazon e-books to a nook if I want to. I want to join my friends in a virtual location of my choice other than facebook.com. (that makes me sound like a geek but I'm trying to just make a point)

 

Yes, there will be options. But is it going to be like choosing between facebook and myspace?

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post #63 of 91 Old 03-31-2014, 01:40 PM
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So then you're talking about either a plane, ring or sphere virtually rendered at a certain distance, not a fully immersive 3D space?

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post #64 of 91 Old 03-31-2014, 01:48 PM
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So then you're talking about either a plane, ring or sphere virtually rendered at a certain distance, not a fully immersive 3D space?

 

No.  The implementation I saw that they were playing around with was to render a movie theater complete with seats that you could turn around in and see.  On the screen was a 3D or 2D movie in all it's 3D or 2D glory.

 

Not a plane, ring, or sphere necessarily, but not a "fully immersive 3D space" for the movie either.  I'm sure you could walk around the theater though....(woo hoo!)....not that you'll gain a different perspective of the movie itself though, you can't: that's locked into the blu-ray for good.

 

The fully immersive thing is one of the things I'm personally waiting for: rendering 3D movies in real time allowing you to walk around Avatar while it's playing for instance.  (CGI stuff only).  Currently you could do something akin to game rendering quality (which by the way is @#$%ing unbelievably good these days), but I'd love it.

 

Heck, I'd love it on a tablet version that I could position anywhere and any direction I wanted to including a free-motion version where I walk around and reposition the pad itself (similar to the home-made thing they built for James Cameron during the filming).

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Java developers, when I saw what has been placed into Java 8 I was immediately reminded of how I've spent so much of my life trying to protect engineers from themselves. Lambda expressions are a horrible idea. Gentlemen: the goal isn't to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer. The goal is to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer exhausted and hopped up on caffeine at 3 am. What a disaster Java 8 is!
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post #65 of 91 Old 03-31-2014, 02:16 PM
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The virtual movie theater thing seems like a silly gimmick to me. You'd need a screen multiple times the resolution of the actual movie to even approach the same image quality....I dunno, if they can barely get people to put on glasses to watch 3D at home, there's no way those people will wear goggles. Really all you'd need to pull that off is a VR bluray player though, so I'm sure it'll be an option for people. But no way it ever goes beyond being a novelty for the vast majority.

I think gamers will have a great time with it, but I just don't see it stepping outside that sphere for a very long time. I think it's really easy to underestimate how much processing power you'll need to pull off something like the metaverse.

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post #66 of 91 Old 03-31-2014, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

The virtual movie theater thing seems like a silly gimmick to me. You'd need a screen multiple times the resolution of the actual movie to even approach the same image quality.

 

Why?


Java developers, when I saw what has been placed into Java 8 I was immediately reminded of how I've spent so much of my life trying to protect engineers from themselves. Lambda expressions are a horrible idea. Gentlemen: the goal isn't to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer. The goal is to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer exhausted and hopped up on caffeine at 3 am. What a disaster Java 8 is!
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post #67 of 91 Old 03-31-2014, 02:37 PM
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Why?

A few reasons: The panel itself is split in half, so that's half the resolution gone right there. Also, it uses optics that warp the image, so you don't have an even distribution of pixels in every direction, so you need increased resolution to make up for that. Plus the image would be scaled/warped depending on your POV, so that'll further degrade resolution unless you have plenty to spare. And the first gen version will use a pentile panel with reduced sub pixel resolution.

It's basically a videophile's nightmare. It'll prob look fine if you don't particularly care about image quality though.

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post #68 of 91 Old 03-31-2014, 04:09 PM
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post #69 of 91 Old 03-31-2014, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Why?

A few reasons: The panel itself is split in half, so that's half the resolution gone right there. Also, it uses optics that warp the image, so you don't have an even distribution of pixels in every direction, so you need increased resolution to make up for that. Plus the image would be scaled/warped depending on your POV, so that'll further degrade resolution unless you have plenty to spare. And the first gen version will use a pentile panel with reduced sub pixel resolution.

It's basically a videophile's nightmare. It'll prob look fine if you don't particularly care about image quality though.

 

The resolution of the HS's panel, the warping of whatever, and anything else that's messed up will not be solved by throwing more bits into the mix.

 

If you have decreased resolution in the panel, you can't somehow "compensate" for that with a higher resolution movie.


Java developers, when I saw what has been placed into Java 8 I was immediately reminded of how I've spent so much of my life trying to protect engineers from themselves. Lambda expressions are a horrible idea. Gentlemen: the goal isn't to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer. The goal is to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer exhausted and hopped up on caffeine at 3 am. What a disaster Java 8 is!
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post #70 of 91 Old 03-31-2014, 06:34 PM
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I have no doubt that they will be allowing us to play games on it but do we have to create an Oculus profile about who we are and what we are interested in? Will it track the games we are playing to show us advertisements between online sessions as the maps load based on the games we have been playing recently? Will they only support games that will allow them to jam these kinds of advertisements down our throat?

Luckey said on Reddit: "You will not need a Facebook account to use or develop for the Rift."

Although they could do what you imagine here if they really wanted to, it doesn't look like they're going in that direction.
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post #71 of 91 Old 03-31-2014, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

A few reasons: The panel itself is split in half, so that's half the resolution gone right there. Also, it uses optics that warp the image, so you don't have an even distribution of pixels in every direction, so you need increased resolution to make up for that. Plus the image would be scaled/warped depending on your POV, so that'll further degrade resolution unless you have plenty to spare. And the first gen version will use a pentile panel with reduced sub pixel resolution.

It's basically a videophile's nightmare. It'll prob look fine if you don't particularly care about image quality though.

Consumer v1 Oculus Rift is rumoured to be sporting at 2560x1440p OLED screen, even with splitting that resolution per eye and warp compensation I doubt may peoples home theatre set ups will be able to compete with that image quality, especially not for sub $400.
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post #72 of 91 Old 03-31-2014, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
 

 

The resolution of the HS's panel, the warping of whatever, and anything else that's messed up will not be solved by throwing more bits into the mix.

 

If you have decreased resolution in the panel, you can't somehow "compensate" for that with a higher resolution movie.

 

Right.  I mean the panel itself needs to be a way higher resolution. I'm not even sure a 4K panel would be sufficient to resolve every pixel in a 1080p movie.


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post #73 of 91 Old 04-01-2014, 06:38 AM
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I disagree. This is not the same as watching a movie on a little screen in front of your eyes alone in your house.  This is something that convincingly transports you elsewhere.



 



Scott, imagine being able to screen a movie for members of the AVS community. Members could put on the VR headset and then be standing in a virtual movie theater. Members like Polaris could walk around the theater and then sit in a seat next to HockeyAJB. During the movie HockeyAJB and Polaris could talk and look at each other just as if they were seated in a real theater even though they are hundreds of miles apart.


If I'm not actually going to a theater, the last thing I want is to virtually bring into the experience the one thing I hate about going to the theater: the people.

Further, if HockeyAJB and Polaris started talking to each other during the movie, I'd be tempted to punch both of them right in....the Oculus...

No offense to those guys - I just used them as an example since they were mentioned. wink.gif
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Or how about having an AVS social function where you invite members to some sort of special new product demonstration/specification reveal you coordinated with a sponsoring partner. Before the demo, participants could move about the room freely and talk to other AVS members just like they were in the same living room. Would people want to do this 8 hrs a day every day? Probably not but I've seen posts and thread where AVS members express some sort of desire to get together or that they feel isolated from the rest of the community because no one is geographically near them.
Having a virtual theater with a preset movie and an audience full of avatars would be one thing. An actual live event with phyiscal objects in a physical space would be another thing completely.

In order to accomplish that, you'd have to have cameras roaming about, controlled by people with their devices. Otherwise, it wouldn't be the real room and real demonstration materials.
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post #74 of 91 Old 04-01-2014, 08:14 AM
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Does the Oculus Rift have a divider in the middle of the panel to prevent your left eye from seeing the part of the screen to the right of the divider and your right eye from seeing the part of the screen to the left of the divider?  In other words, are there effectively two images, one for each eye?

 

If so, then to give you a pixel for pixel representation of a 1920x1080 movie, wouldn't each half of the panel need to be a minimum of 1920x1080?  This would make the complete panel 3840x1080 at a minimum.

 

However, you would also need to consider # of pixels per degree if your goal is to make the small display which is only about 2 inches from your eyes, look the same as a 100-120" screen at a normal viewing distance of say 10-12 feet.

 

Then you have to think about how it would work in this "virtual theater".  As you walk towards the screen in this virtual theater, obviously the screen would have to appear to become larger, taking up more and more of your field of view.  At some point, you shouldn't even be able to see the full screen at once, which would be similar to zooming in on a portion of the screen.  The opposite would be true if you walked away from the screen.  At some point the screen would take up less than your entire field of view and you start to see the walls to the sides and above/below the screen.  Should the resolution of the virtual screen change when this occurs?

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post #75 of 91 Old 04-01-2014, 08:27 AM
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Then you have to think about how it would work in this "virtual theater".  As you walk towards the screen in this virtual theater, obviously the screen would have to appear to become larger, taking up more and more of your field of view.  At some point, you shouldn't even be able to see the full screen at once, which would be similar to zooming in on a portion of the screen.  The opposite would be true if you walked away from the screen.  At some point the screen would take up less than your entire field of view and you start to see the walls to the sides and above/below the screen.  Should the resolution of the virtual screen change when this occurs?

 

???  There is so much pixel real estate to draw the screen.  It's like everything else.  You get the number of pixels for that drawn section of screen available.  Walking up to close to the screen will yield less of the movie image to be drawn across the entirety of the display.

 

What would be more in the "weird" category would be the perspectives employed.  You would have the perspective of the theater, and an entirely different set of rules for the movie.  It might be jarring.  The perspective of the movie is fixed and is an additional axonometric projection within a completely different world.  It'd be like viewing a movie while half your view is on your kitchen and half on the TV.  Might make you puke as you walk around.  Just moving your head sideways during a 3D film is goofy enough.


Java developers, when I saw what has been placed into Java 8 I was immediately reminded of how I've spent so much of my life trying to protect engineers from themselves. Lambda expressions are a horrible idea. Gentlemen: the goal isn't to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer. The goal is to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer exhausted and hopped up on caffeine at 3 am. What a disaster Java 8 is!
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post #76 of 91 Old 04-01-2014, 08:27 AM
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Does the Oculus Rift have a divider in the middle of the panel to prevent your left eye from seeing the part of the screen to the right of the divider and your right eye from seeing the part of the screen to the left of the divider?  In other words, are there effectively two images, one for each eye?

If so, then to give you a pixel for pixel representation of a 1920x1080 movie, wouldn't each half of the panel need to be a minimum of 1920x1080?  This would make the complete panel 3840x1080 at a minimum.

However, you would also need to consider # of pixels per degree if your goal is to make the small display which is only about 2 inches from your eyes, look the same as a 100-120" screen at a normal viewing distance of say 10-12 feet.

Then you have to think about how it would work in this "virtual theater".  As you walk towards the screen in this virtual theater, obviously the screen would have to appear to become larger, taking up more and more of your field of view.  At some point, you shouldn't even be able to see the full screen at once, which would be similar to zooming in on a portion of the screen.  The opposite would be true if you walked away from the screen.  At some point the screen would take up less than your entire field of view and you start to see the walls to the sides and above/below the screen.  Should the resolution of the virtual screen change when this occurs?
My guess, as someone who isn't a VR gear expert, is that the virtual room, including the screen and the movie playing on it, would be a set resolution. As you walk toward any object, it's essentially made larger and the original resolution of the environment would dictate how close you can get until you see the effects of the limitations of whatever resolution things were created in.

It's like when you move closer to a wall: you start seeing the texture and the imperfections of the drywall and paint job.

In other words, this likely wouldn't be like GPS maps where zooming in gets you the same resolution, just a closer view.

This would likely be more like satellite maps where getting closer will eventually start revealing pixels, much like if you walked up close to a real digital movie screen.

Now, I don't mean to imply that moving closer would essentially be zooming in to it, just that moving closer would reveal the pixels at a certain point unless the surface was rendered at a resolution beyond what the goggles were capable of and simply scaled to the device.

In short, it would be like getting close to a wall and seeing the texture of it, along with all the imperfections of the drywall and paint job. In this case, it would be the pixels.
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post #77 of 91 Old 04-01-2014, 09:05 AM
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Presumably the image for the movie would be handled like a 1920x1080 texture map. At long distances it's mipmapped to a lower resolution to prevent aliasing, close up its bilinearly filtered, at an angle it's anisotropically filtered, etc. No need to reinvent the wheel.

Anyone even slightly bothered at the distortion caused by curved OLEDs will be outright offended by the way movies would look in a virtual VR theater.

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post #78 of 91 Old 04-01-2014, 09:16 AM
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If I'm not actually going to a theater, the last thing I want is to virtually bring into the experience the one thing I hate about going to the theater: the people.

An actual live event with phyiscal objects in a physical space would be another thing completely.  In order to accomplish that, you'd have to have cameras roaming about, controlled by people with their devices. Otherwise, it wouldn't be the real room and real demonstration materials.

 

I agree.  I hate listening to strangers in the movie theater also.  My least favorite part of the movie going experience.  But let's imagine that everyone only talks during the previews and you're surrounded by friends and family.  My point is that it's more social than isolating.  If that be in a virtual theater or in a virtual ping pong match with everyone shouting, your choice.  If you just can't stand people, then no amount of technology can help you. :)

 

Well, I was thinking of an example to support my argument of OR being a social facilitating device.  The demo/spec reveal example would be in virtual room with a virtual representation of the product. People would be able to walk around and talk to each other (using today's current VR interfaces keyboard/mouse or game controller) during the demo irregardless of where they are in the real world.

 

To your point, it could be a real world filmed demo but the technology only exists today to broadcast that in a 360 degree single point of reference.

 

To blow your mind, you could record the event and then allow users to re-live the demo and wander about the event as if it were live. Obviously you could not interact with anyone in that scenario.

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post #79 of 91 Old 04-01-2014, 09:22 AM
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What would be more in the "weird" category would be the perspectives employed.  You would have the perspective of the theater, and an entirely different set of rules for the movie.  It might be jarring.  The perspective of the movie is fixed and is an additional axonometric projection within a completely different world.  It'd be like viewing a movie while half your view is on your kitchen and half on the TV.  Might make you puke as you walk around.  Just moving your head sideways during a 3D film is goofy enough.

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My guess, as someone who isn't a VR gear expert, is that the virtual room, including the screen and the movie playing on it, would be a set resolution. As you walk toward any object, it's essentially made larger and the original resolution of the environment would dictate how close you can get until you see the effects of the limitations of whatever resolution things were created in.
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Anyone even slightly bothered at the distortion caused by curved OLEDs will be outright offended by the way movies would look in a virtual VR theater.

 

This youtuber does a really good job showing/explaining the 3D virtual theater experience. And yes, the dual image is what is displayed in the OR but since it's so close to your eyes, you perceive it as a single image.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_JkrU2kxag

 

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post #80 of 91 Old 04-01-2014, 10:01 AM
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I want my 5 minutes and 34 seconds back....


Java developers, when I saw what has been placed into Java 8 I was immediately reminded of how I've spent so much of my life trying to protect engineers from themselves. Lambda expressions are a horrible idea. Gentlemen: the goal isn't to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer. The goal is to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer exhausted and hopped up on caffeine at 3 am. What a disaster Java 8 is!
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post #81 of 91 Old 04-01-2014, 10:28 AM
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I agree.  I hate listening to strangers in the movie theater also.  My least favorite part of the movie going experience.  But let's imagine that everyone only talks during the previews and you're surrounded by friends and family.  My point is that it's more social than isolating.  If that be in a virtual theater or in a virtual ping pong match with everyone shouting, your choice.  If you just can't stand people, then no amount of technology can help you. smile.gif



 



Well, I was thinking of an example to support my argument of OR being a social facilitating device.  The demo/spec reveal example would be in virtual room with a virtual representation of the product. People would be able to walk around and talk to each other (using today's current VR interfaces keyboard/mouse or game controller) during the demo irregardless of where they are in the real world.



 



To your point, it could be a real world filmed demo but the technology only exists today to broadcast that in a 360 degree single point of reference.



 



To blow your mind, you could record the event and then allow users to re-live the demo and wander about the event as if it were live. Obviously you could not interact with anyone in that scenario.



They could do that with normal displays too, but it hasn't caught on. Look at something like playstation home or second life...it's still just a novelty. The oculus (or any VR headset) still isn't enough to make it palatable.

It won't be ready until two people can enter VR and have a face to face conversation that's indistinguishable from real life - we'll need real time face and body capture, and computers powerful enough to render multiple people photorealistically. Its still so far off in the future that it's barely relevant to the oculus.

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post #82 of 91 Old 04-01-2014, 10:52 AM
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I want my 5 minutes and 34 seconds back....


YMMV.  I think what you actually want is a holodeck.  Sorry, those probably won't be around for a while.

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post #83 of 91 Old 04-01-2014, 11:10 AM
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They could do that with normal displays too, but it hasn't caught on. Look at something like playstation home or second life...it's still just a novelty. The oculus (or any VR headset) still isn't enough to make it palatable.

It won't be ready until two people can enter VR and have a face to face conversation that's indistinguishable from real life - we'll need real time face and body capture, and computers powerful enough to render multiple people photorealistically. Its still so far off in the future that it's barely relevant to the oculus.

I agree playstation home is completely boring and not engaging but I believe (i've never used it) second life is quite popular. Getting away from these stock boring avatars will only help but I don't think you need to get to photo realistic representations to make it a success. The computing power needed for that is not that far away.

 

It may turn out to be a novelty but there's a reason why little kids, grown adults and ninety year old grandmothers are wowed by this and Mark Z. paid 2 BILLION dollars for the company after experiencing the demo. I hope Facebook follows through and throws a lot of R&D $ at it.

 

I'm not trying to make converts here. I'm just trying to share information with people who probably only first heard about OR last week. Regardless, you'll probably be able to borrow your kid's consumer version of the OR later this year and see for yourself.

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post #84 of 91 Old 04-01-2014, 11:14 AM
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I actually think this is where we'll see integration of the Microsoft technology like Kinect 2.0 for Windows PC. No problem there with Kinect scanning the user and placing multiple Avatars/friends of users in a FaceBook or MS theater. And allowing them to socialize before and while watching a movie. Even though too much socializing at a movie would actually drive me nuts. But you could have a lot of good lobby type interaction and discussions before and after a movie. Even a few Virtual drinks together.
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post #85 of 91 Old 04-01-2014, 12:05 PM
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I want my 5 minutes and 34 seconds back....


YMMV.  I think what you actually want is a holodeck.  Sorry, those probably won't be around for a while.

 

Never said that.  Never implied that.  That said, of course that'd be fun.  But I'm not comparing today's technology to that concept and being somehow impatient that we're not there.


Java developers, when I saw what has been placed into Java 8 I was immediately reminded of how I've spent so much of my life trying to protect engineers from themselves. Lambda expressions are a horrible idea. Gentlemen: the goal isn't to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer. The goal is to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer exhausted and hopped up on caffeine at 3 am. What a disaster Java 8 is!
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post #86 of 91 Old 04-01-2014, 12:06 PM
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I agree playstation home is completely boring and not engaging but I believe (i've never used it) second life is quite popular. Getting away from these stock boring avatars will only help but I don't think you need to get to photo realistic representations to make it a success. The computing power needed for that is not that far away.



 



It may turn out to be a novelty but there's a reason why little kids, grown adults and ninety year old grandmothers are wowed by this and Mark Z. paid 2 BILLION dollars for the company after experiencing the demo. I hope Facebook follows through and throws a lot of R&D $ at it.

I'm not trying to make converts here. I'm just trying to share information with people who probably only first heard about OR last week. Regardless, you'll probably be able to borrow your kid's consumer version of the OR later this year and see for yourself.

Don't get me wrong, I'm incredibly impressed with OR, I can't wait to get one. I'm not poo-pooing VR, I just don't think it has any relevance outside of gaming in its current form. The device that will broaden VRs relevance outside of gaming will probably bare no resemblance to an oculus.

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post #87 of 91 Old 04-01-2014, 12:08 PM
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Don't get me wrong, I'm incredibly impressed with OR, I can't wait to get one. I'm not poo-pooing VR, I just don't think it has any relevance outside of gaming in its current form. The device that will broaden VRs relevance outside of gaming will probably bare no resemblance to an oculus.

 

If having the CGI from Avatar or Monster's Inc rendered on the fly so you can walk around in that word during the progression of the movie counts as a "game" to you, then so be it.  But I see that as an entirely new form of entertainment.


Java developers, when I saw what has been placed into Java 8 I was immediately reminded of how I've spent so much of my life trying to protect engineers from themselves. Lambda expressions are a horrible idea. Gentlemen: the goal isn't to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer. The goal is to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer exhausted and hopped up on caffeine at 3 am. What a disaster Java 8 is!
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post #88 of 91 Old 04-01-2014, 12:29 PM - Thread Starter
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If having the CGI from Avatar or Monster's Inc rendered on the fly so you can walk around in that word during the progression of the movie counts as a "game" to you, then so be it.  But I see that as an entirely new form of entertainment.

 

I agree, being able to look around in a truly immersive environment would radically transform the movie experience (for the better) but it would not really be a game per se.


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post #89 of 91 Old 04-01-2014, 12:53 PM
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If having the CGI from Avatar or Monster's Inc rendered on the fly so you can walk around in that word during the progression of the movie counts as a "game" to you, then so be it.  But I see that as an entirely new form of entertainment.

Sure, I said pretty much the same thing a couple days back.

But the hardware needed to render something like that in real time at 1080p/150fps with minimal latency will only set you back a few million dollars...if you can even fit it in your house. tongue.gif

Besides, what you're thinking of already exists in the gaming world, affectionately known as "first person walkers." Look up Dear Esther and Gone Home.

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post #90 of 91 Old 04-01-2014, 01:09 PM
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Sure, I said pretty much the same thing a couple days back.

But the hardware needed to render something like that in real time at 1080p/150fps with minimal latency will only set you back a few million dollars...if you can even fit it in your house. tongue.gif

Besides, what you're thinking of already exists in the gaming world, affectionately known as "first person walkers." Look up Dear Esther and Gone Home.

 

 

Ah don't worry about the price. Consumer cost will be subsidized with plenty of advertising and contractual obligations.

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