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post #151 of 174 Old 12-28-2014, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
I'm not positive about the Boston market, but I know in Hartford, the tiers are 25mbps and 105mbps (Blast!). You'd probably have to have Blast! to get anywhere near 100mbps. If they upgraded the Boston market to 50mbps and 105mbps in order to compete with FIOS (Cambridge and Boston would come along with the 'burbs, even though they don't have FIOS like the 'burbs), then maybe you could get 60ish off of Performance, but not 100+. Either way, if you're getting 40mbps, and the FireTV can't do 1080p, then there's something wrong with the FireTV and it's software. You should only need about 15-20mbps to do 1080p.

I'd love to blame it on that POS Xfinity gateway contraption that you're paying Comcast a ridiculous $10/mo for, but I'm not convinced that's really the issue. 40mbps is way too slow for MoCA, but it still should be plenty for 1080p. I get 1080p/SuperHD on everything with Wifi N for my FireTV Stick, Chromecast, and AppleTV and Powerline for everything else (through a few Ethernet switches). Did you try running the FireTV off of wireless? Some devices like wireless more, probably because they were tested a lot better for wireless, since most customers will use wireless and not Ethernet. The AppleTV is glitchy and won't update properly when on Ethernet for some unknown reason.
I'm realizing how important it to choose the servers the various speedtest sites use. I'd been testing to Washington DC with TestMy.Net and Boston's Comcast server with Speedtest.net. I'm now equalizing that, now that I've found the place in Speedtest to choose the server (under Settings - be sure to hit Save - and then test to your "preferred server"). In TestMy.Net, go to the link called Mercury at the top of the page and you'll get the big list of servers. Click on one and the test will start.

The 150% gap I'd been seeing between the two test sites has gone away, and now I'm just seeing moment-to-moment variation.

Right now, testing to Comcast.net in Boston, I'm getting, over MOCA, 52 Mbps (TestMy.Net) / 72 Mbps (Speedtest.net); at the Xfinity 117 Mbps (TestMy.Net) / 119 (Speedtest.net).

But the most appropriate test here is to where Prime comes from, which is Amazon in Seattle. To Seattle, TestMy.Net's TestMercurY.net lets me choose Amazon Web Services or Amazon's even faster Cloudfront.net as the server, while Speedtest net gives the choice of five other servers, but not Amazon's, the fastest seeming to be the private Softlayer Tech (not the public ISPs).

To Seattle over MOCA I can get 40 Mbps (TestMy.Net to Cloudfront) / 35 Mbps (Speedtest to Softlayer Tech); at the Xfinity 102 Mbps (TestMy.Net to Cloudfront) / 113 Mbps (Speedtest to Softlayer Tech).

I'm glad I moved the Xfinity downstairs! Even your wifi theory supports that, as without bringing the Xfinity down there, I'd only have my FIOS box's WiFi g in the theater.

I'll test your theory by turning off the wired connection in the Fire TV and letting it connect wirelessly over n to the Xfinity, which is only about 4 feet away.

If the 1080p flag comes up faster over WiFi than the 30 seconds it's consistently been taking wired - which would really surprise me - it'll be evidence that Amazon made the radio faster than the jack, which sounds unlikely to me.

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post #152 of 174 Old 12-28-2014, 04:18 PM
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I'm realizing how important it to choose the servers the various speedtest sites use. I'd been testing to Washington DC with TestMy.Net and Boston's Comcast server with Speedtest.net. I'm now equalizing that, now that I've found the place in Speedtest to choose the server (under Settings - be sure to hit Save - and then test to your "preferred server"). In TestMy.Net, go to the link called Mercury at the top of the page and you'll get the big list of servers. Click on one and the test will start.

The 150% gap I'd been seeing between the two test sites has gone away, and now I'm just seeing moment-to-moment variation.

Right now, testing to Comcast.net in Boston, I'm getting, over MOCA, 52 Mbps (TestMy.Net) / 72 Mbps (Speedtest.net); at the Xfinity 117 Mbps (TestMy.Net) / 119 (Speedtest.net).

But the most appropriate test here is to where Prime comes from, which is Amazon in Seattle. To Seattle, TestMy.Net's TestMercurY.net lets me choose Amazon Web Services or Amazon's even faster Cloudfront.net as the server, while Speedtest net gives the choice of five other servers, but not Amazon's, the fastest seeming to be the private Softlayer Tech (not the public ISPs).

To Seattle over MOCA I can get 40 Mbps (TestMy.Net to Cloudfront) / 35 Mbps (Speedtest to Softlayer Tech); at the Xfinity 102 Mbps (TestMy.Net to Cloudfront) / 113 Mbps (Speedtest to Softlayer Tech).

I'm glad I moved the Xfinity downstairs! Even your wifi theory supports that, as without bringing the Xfinity down there, I'd only have my FIOS box's WiFi g in the theater.

I'll test your theory by turning off the wired connection in the Fire TV and letting it connect wirelessly over n to the Xfinity, which is only about 4 feet away.

If the 1080p flag comes up faster over WiFi than the 30 seconds it's consistently been taking wired - which would really surprise me - it'll be evidence that Amazon made the radio faster than the jack, which sounds unlikely to me.
You must have Blast! to be getting those speeds. Are you sure AWS doesn't have an east coast datacenter? It's probably in somewhere like North Carolina, which is a popular spot for east coast datacenters, since it's cheap down there, but more importantly, it's a short trip on the internets to anywhere from NOLA to Bahstahn, and The Windy City to Sunny Florida.

However, any of those speeds are more than enough for 1080p video, so the FireTV is doing something weird. And it's not that in Apple's case they preferred Wifi over Ethernet, it's just some bug in the way they handle one vs. the other. It's possible that their testing and optimization in software was more rigorous for Wifi vs. Ethernet, or maybe it doesn't matter at all.
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post #153 of 174 Old 12-29-2014, 01:35 AM
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. . .

I'll test your theory by turning off the wired connection in the Fire TV and letting it connect wirelessly over n to the Xfinity, which is only about 4 feet away.

If the 1080p flag comes up faster over WiFi than the 30 seconds it's consistently been taking wired - which would really surprise me - it'll be evidence that Amazon made the radio faster than the jack, which sounds unlikely to me.
To drop the other shoe, I did that test tonight - I unplugged the Fire TV's ethernet cable and had it connect over WiFi n to the Xfinity box four feet away.

Not only did it not bring up the 1080p flag faster than ethernet's 30 second prebuffer wait, WiFi n never brought the 1080p flag up at all - not even after six minutes.

Now I suppose that the presence of WPA2 encryption on the link might have slowed it down a trice, but very few people leave their wifi unsecured these days.

Plugged the ethernet cable back in, and the Fire TV immediately switched back to wired, and to bringing up the 1080p flag after 30 seconds.

No, it doesn't work better wirelessly than wired.

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post #154 of 174 Old 12-29-2014, 11:48 AM
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I learned unlike Netflix that Amazon 1080p is very picky in working. I have watched episodes of Doctor Who after season 5 that are in HD and I still get one or two which refuse to go to 1080p.

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post #155 of 174 Old 12-29-2014, 01:07 PM
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To drop the other shoe, I did that test tonight - I unplugged the Fire TV's ethernet cable and had it connect over WiFi n to the Xfinity box four feet away.

Not only did it not bring up the 1080p flag faster than ethernet's 30 second prebuffer wait, WiFi n never brought the 1080p flag up at all - not even after six minutes.

Now I suppose that the presence of WPA2 encryption on the link might have slowed it down a trice, but very few people leave their wifi unsecured these days.

Plugged the ethernet cable back in, and the Fire TV immediately switched back to wired, and to bringing up the 1080p flag after 30 seconds.

No, it doesn't work better wirelessly than wired.
Interesting. I think you've pretty much confirmed that the way Amazon is determining resolution is WAY too conservative. Hopefully they will fix that problem in a future software update.
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post #156 of 174 Old 12-29-2014, 02:00 PM
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Are you on 105mbps Blast!? 120 sounds a bit high, although if you're using their equipment, it might have that large of an overprovision. When my Blast! was at full Blast! speed, it would do about 111 down. Then it sort of got lame, and settled in around 60mbps. Ookla SpeedTest has the most accurate speed test out there, and I tend to trust them a lot.
I have to wonder: do you suppose that the major ISP's boost things when they see you connecting to a speed testing site?

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post #157 of 174 Old 12-29-2014, 10:41 PM
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I have to wonder: do you suppose that the major ISP's boost things when they see you connecting to a speed testing site?
No. Comcast used to have Powerboost!, but it was equally applied to all traffic. Of course a cynical person could say that it was designed to fool speedtests, since it had that effect, although one could make a perfectly legitimate argument that in a mostly DOCSIS-2 world, it offered far higher burst speeds to help download small files and buffer video faster than could otherwise have been offered without completely overloading the DOCSIS 2 channels with higher sustained speeds. Today's DOCSIS 2 speeds would be completely unsustainable on a network dominated by DOCSIS 2 users, but today most users are DOCSIS 3, so they act to load balance among the 8 downstream QAMs.
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post #158 of 174 Old 12-30-2014, 09:36 AM
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No. Comcast used to have Powerboost!,

[....powerboost dialog snipped.....]
Why did you go on talking about Powerboost? It's not what I'm talking about.

And how do you know for sure what comcast is doing outside of powerboost? And I was just wondering out loud.

Companies have tailored benchmarks for tests for years in the computer industry. Samsung recently got bagged for having done this. And this kind of behavior goes back decades. Remember the early "WinMark" tests? It's certainly no stretch to simply wonder if they're paying attention to speed testing sites. And even the extremes are not immediately dismissible: It's not out of the question either that they might (<----note "might") be performing stateful packet inspection to determine if you're running a test utility.

Years ago I had comcast in my home, I had the installers behind me and we tested my connection rate on a number of sites. Most of them hovered around 4-5 Mbps (after the turbo boost was exhausted). They said "no, no, no, those are all flawed. Use our site", which I did and comcast claimed that comcast was delivering 12.5 down (exactly in fact, no matter what). Proof of wrong doing? No, of course not. A conclusion in itself? Absolutely not. But to say that corporations do not often tailor to the test, and to further claim that you know for sure what they are doing is simply naively drawing conclusions with far too little data, unless of course you are deeply inside the company and writing the routing and ramping algorithm. Are you?

If I had clear evidence for wrongdoing, I would have stated things differently and would not have been clear to start off with "I have to wonder..."

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post #159 of 174 Old 12-30-2014, 12:48 PM
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Why did you go on talking about Powerboost? It's not what I'm talking about.

And how do you know for sure what comcast is doing outside of powerboost? And I was just wondering out loud.

Companies have tailored benchmarks for tests for years in the computer industry. Samsung recently got bagged for having done this. And this kind of behavior goes back decades. Remember the early "WinMark" tests? It's certainly no stretch to simply wonder if they're paying attention to speed testing sites. And even the extremes are not immediately dismissible: It's not out of the question either that they might (<----note "might") be performing stateful packet inspection to determine if you're running a test utility.

Years ago I had comcast in my home, I had the installers behind me and we tested my connection rate on a number of sites. Most of them hovered around 4-5 Mbps (after the turbo boost was exhausted). They said "no, no, no, those are all flawed. Use our site", which I did and comcast claimed that comcast was delivering 12.5 down (exactly in fact, no matter what). Proof of wrong doing? No, of course not. A conclusion in itself? Absolutely not. But to say that corporations do not often tailor to the test, and to further claim that you know for sure what they are doing is simply naively drawing conclusions with far too little data, unless of course you are deeply inside the company and writing the routing and ramping algorithm. Are you?

If I had clear evidence for wrongdoing, I would have stated things differently and would not have been clear to start off with "I have to wonder..."
I've never seen anything to suggest that. In fact, I often have a hard time getting Speedtest up to the level that I can get my connection with multiple download/streams going when I'm not trying to do a test. In fact, I have run Comcast's speedtest a few times, and I get consistently better results with Speedtest.net. In fact, I just ran Comcast speedtest and Speedtest.net, and I got 86/12 on Comcast, and 94/12 on Speedtest.net. I hate to defend Comcast, but you are just throwing around baseless conjecture that is not supported by any evidence whatsoever. Back in the day, some speedtests were limited by the servers they were running on, or various peering interconnections, but they seem to be pretty darn good these days.
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post #160 of 174 Old 12-30-2014, 06:53 PM
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I've never seen anything to suggest that. In fact, I often have a hard time getting Speedtest up to the level that I can get my connection with multiple download/streams going when I'm not trying to do a test. In fact, I have run Comcast's speedtest a few times, and I get consistently better results with Speedtest.net. In fact, I just ran Comcast speedtest and Speedtest.net, and I got 86/12 on Comcast, and 94/12 on Speedtest.net. I hate to defend Comcast, but you are just throwing around baseless conjecture that is not supported by any evidence whatsoever.
I was just wondering aloud and prefaced it with "I have to wonder". There is no evidentiary requirement for this. It was you who declared that it was not the case with "No", and you simply do not have enough information to say that. You don't.

And I outright question your findings: I was with Comcast for a number of years, and I *never* saw speedtest.net (nor any other site) EVER come close to their own speed test.

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post #161 of 174 Old 12-31-2014, 05:09 PM
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I was just wondering aloud and prefaced it with "I have to wonder". There is no evidentiary requirement for this. It was you who declared that it was not the case with "No", and you simply do not have enough information to say that. You don't.

And I outright question your findings: I was with Comcast for a number of years, and I *never* saw speedtest.net (nor any other site) EVER come close to their own speed test.
Let me know when you have any shred of evidence for such wild accusations. As of right now, you have nothing. ZIP. ZERO. ZILCH. NADA. NOTHING.
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post #162 of 174 Old 12-31-2014, 07:44 PM
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Let me know when you have any shred of evidence for such wild accusations. As of right now, you have nothing. ZIP. ZERO. ZILCH. NADA. NOTHING.
And once again, you've mischaracterized what I was saying. When did this rise to the level of an actual "accusation" against the ISPs? It was me wondering something aloud. I'd try to explain this to you (yet again), but you seem unable to grasp the simplest of concepts regarding discussion, so I don't see the point. In the future though, you'd do well to not take what someone wonders and extrapolate it upwards to an outright "accusation", as you put it.

Good grief. Time for you to get a tighter grip on interpretation.

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post #163 of 174 Old 12-31-2014, 09:31 PM
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And once again, you've mischaracterized what I was saying. When did this rise to the level of an actual "accusation" against the ISPs? It was me wondering something aloud. I'd try to explain this to you (yet again), but you seem unable to grasp the simplest of concepts regarding discussion, so I don't see the point. In the future though, you'd do well to not take what someone wonders and extrapolate it upwards to an outright "accusation", as you put it.

Good grief. Time for you to get a tighter grip on interpretation.
I use a few tools, but never speedtest or the isp test pages. Not because there are any shenanigans going on, but because most of these tests use java or flash, and can possibly be multi threaded as well.

testmy.net has a varied set of tests and is not java or flash based. Some of the niftier tests let you test over time, or from multiple sources at once which is quite informative.
http://testmy.net/ipb/topic/28902-wh...a-speed-tests/

Pingplotter can be used to gather data and test for packet loss, which can be as big a culprit as bandwidth:
http://www.pingplotter.com/

Shaperprobe will test your ISP for traffic shaping:
http://www.measurementlab.net/tools/shaperprobe

Smokeping tests latency and jitter:
http://oss.oetiker.ch/smokeping/

Looky here!

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post #164 of 174 Old 01-01-2015, 02:06 PM
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And once again, you've mischaracterized what I was saying. When did this rise to the level of an actual "accusation" against the ISPs? It was me wondering something aloud. I'd try to explain this to you (yet again), but you seem unable to grasp the simplest of concepts regarding discussion, so I don't see the point. In the future though, you'd do well to not take what someone wonders and extrapolate it upwards to an outright "accusation", as you put it.

Good grief. Time for you to get a tighter grip on interpretation.
It's an accusation as soon as you mentioned it. I hate to have to defend Comcast, but you have no reason to be even suspicious of them doing that, aside from Speedbost, which, as we previously discussed, no longer exists.
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post #165 of 174 Old 01-01-2015, 03:07 PM
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It's an accusation as soon as you mentioned it. I hate to have to defend Comcast, but you have no reason to be even suspicious of them doing that, aside from Speedbost, which, as we previously discussed, no longer exists.
BS. Perhaps this will help: From merriam webster: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/accusation

ac·cu·sa·tion

noun \ˌa-kyə-ˈzā-shən, -(ˌ)kyü-\ : a claim that someone has done something wrong or illegal : a charge that someone has committed a fault or crime




Now find someone else to misrepresent.

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post #166 of 174 Old 01-01-2015, 04:35 PM
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I never heard of Blast! before your message above. I'm using the Comcast Xfinity cable modem / gigabit Wifi-n router. I bought and returned one Fire TV box and bought another - both behaved exactly the same: no 1080p on the 40-48 Mbps stream from the xfinity/MOCA combination after taking the WRT54G out of the system.

The only thing that got me 1080p on Amazon Prime was directly plugging my second Fire TV box into the Xfinity box. Once I saw that worked when I brought the Fire TV upstairs to the Xfinity, I moved the Xfinity down to my theater and used the MOCA link to feed internet upstairs to my PC instead.
I now get the 1080p indicator on screen after 30 seconds - I went an entire evening watching Warehouse 13 through my Fire TV box, letting it go directly from episode to episode at the far end of the MOCA link and never saw that indicator.

Given that 30 second delay (which I assume is for buffering the 1080 resolution) I'm grateful when there is a studio logo sequence to give the system time to ramp up to full resolution! I'm also grateful that the Amazon Fire TV, unlike the recent Rokus, still can do DD 5.1 over optical, since my AVR is pre-HDMI.
I've been reading your posts... I'm looking to get something like a Roku 3 or Amazon fire so I can watch Amazon video and use spotify through my AVR. My tv has amazon instant video built in but it looses connection a lot... and I only get optical out from my tv to receiver. Based on what I'm reading... is it the same deal with the outputs on both the Roku & Amazon fire? They can only do 5.1 sound through optical? My receiver is the X5200W... I'm wondering if it can take in a 5.1 signal through HDMI... but it sounds like the HDMI can only send stereo on these units ?!?

& both the Roku 3 and amazon fire will only send 720p signal to the receiver if watching Amazon content it sounds like? Man... that's a drag. I'm wondering if these are the only options available for the services I'm seeking.
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I've been reading your posts... I'm looking to get something like a Roku 3 or Amazon fire so I can watch Amazon video and use spotify through my AVR. My tv has amazon instant video built in but it looses connection a lot... and I only get optical out from my tv to receiver. Based on what I'm reading... is it the same deal with the outputs on both the Roku & Amazon fire? They can only do 5.1 sound through optical? My receiver is the X5200W... I'm wondering if it can take in a 5.1 signal through HDMI... but it sounds like the HDMI can only send stereo on these units ?!?

& both the Roku 3 and amazon fire will only send 720p signal to the receiver if watching Amazon content it sounds like? Man... that's a drag. I'm wondering if these are the only options available for the services I'm seeking.
Both will do 5.1 over HDMI.

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post #168 of 174 Old 01-01-2015, 05:23 PM
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I've been reading your posts... I'm looking to get something like a Roku 3 or Amazon fire so I can watch Amazon video and use spotify through my AVR. My tv has amazon instant video built in but it looses connection a lot... and I only get optical out from my tv to receiver. Based on what I'm reading... is it the same deal with the outputs on both the Roku & Amazon fire? They can only do 5.1 sound through optical? My receiver is the X5200W... I'm wondering if it can take in a 5.1 signal through HDMI... but it sounds like the HDMI can only send stereo on these units ?!?

& both the Roku 3 and amazon fire will only send 720p signal to the receiver if watching Amazon content it sounds like? Man... that's a drag. I'm wondering if these are the only options available for the services I'm seeking.
If your receiver has HDMI in, you can use either a Roku or a Fire. Roku 2 and 3 models have dropped the optical output.

I don't know the specs of the Roku (you can try to download the manual from Roku to figure it out), but the Fire's optical can deliver either classic 5.1 Dolby Digital or stereo, depending on your setup choices.

The Fire's HDMI can deliver Dolby Digital Plus at up to 7.1. It can be set to simple stereo, but I don't think that's what you want to do!

Since your Denon understands Dolby Digital Plus, that's what you should set the Fire's HDMI audio output to. I assume the Roku can do that as well. I believe that's the default setup for either of them anyway.

The Fire TV's voice remote almost always understands what I say to it. It will quickly find you Amazon Instant video shows.

The only downside to the Fire is that it wants a very fast ethernet connection - over 50 mbps - to put "1080p" next to "HD" on the elapsed time status line - but its standard 720 "HD" image is almost as good. I don't know whether the Roku is as demanding with respect to connection speed for 1080. If you get a Roku, post here and in the main Amazon Prime thread here whether you can get 1080p and at what connection speed.

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post #169 of 174 Old 01-01-2015, 06:19 PM
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If your receiver has HDMI in, you can use either a Roku or a Fire. Roku 2 and 3 models have dropped the optical output.

I don't know the specs of the Roku (you can try to download the manual from Roku to figure it out), but the Fire's optical can deliver either classic 5.1 Dolby Digital or stereo, depending on your setup choices.

The Fire's HDMI can deliver Dolby Digital Plus at up to 7.1. It can be set to simple stereo, but I don't think that's what you want to do!

Since your Denon understands Dolby Digital Plus, that's what you should set the Fire's HDMI audio output to. I assume the Roku can do that as well. I believe that's the default setup for either of them anyway.

The Fire TV's voice remote almost always understands what I say to it. It will quickly find you Amazon Instant video shows.

The only downside to the Fire is that it wants a very fast ethernet connection - over 50 mbps - to put "1080p" next to "HD" on the elapsed time status line - but its standard 720 "HD" image is almost as good. I don't know whether the Roku is as demanding with respect to connection speed for 1080. If you get a Roku, post here and in the main Amazon Prime thread here whether you can get 1080p and at what connection speed.
Thanks for the info... that clears everything up for me. My speed I think is at 25 mbps... I'm wondering if the Roku 3 does the same thing to HD signal, & if the Roku 3 can output 7.1. I read the Roku 3 forum and a lot on there were complaining about the RGB color output... I'm guessing the Fire doesn't have the same issue seeing as how the chipset looks to be more advanced.
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post #170 of 174 Old 01-01-2015, 06:21 PM
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Both will do 5.1 over HDMI.
Ahh ok that answers that question regarding the Roku, thanks.
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post #171 of 174 Old 01-02-2015, 01:27 PM
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BS. Perhaps this will help: From merriam webster: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/accusation

ac·cu·sa·tion

noun \ˌa-kyə-ˈzā-shən, -(ˌ)kyü-\ : a claim that someone has done something wrong or illegal : a charge that someone has committed a fault or crime




Now find someone else to misrepresent.
And stop making ridiculous accusations that you can't back up.
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post #172 of 174 Old 01-02-2015, 01:37 PM
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And stop making ridiculous accusations that you can't back up.
And again, I didn't.

Since you seem unable to understand what an accusation even is, and (ironically) seem intent on accusing me of making one, in the interests of keeping this place free of your troll behavior, I'll back out now.

I'm sorry for having to call you out on this, but perhaps your embarrassment here will teach you a lesson. Think long and hard on this.

In the meantime, welcome to my block list.

"By Grabthar's hammer, by the suns of Warvan, you shall be avenged!"
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post #173 of 174 Old 01-03-2015, 08:29 AM
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And again, I didn't.

Since you seem unable to understand what an accusation even is, and (ironically) seem intent on accusing me of making one, in the interests of keeping this place free of your troll behavior, I'll back out now.

I'm sorry for having to call you out on this, but perhaps your embarrassment here will teach you a lesson. Think long and hard on this.

In the meantime, welcome to my block list.
I stand by my previous statements.
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So I am brand new to this forum and know nothing about any of this audio world. Have a basic home theater w an Yamaha rx-v3200 reciever and definitive speakers. Anyway I'm wondering if anyone can help me understand how to hook up audio from amzon fire to reciever. I know its an optic cable but someone else hooked my stuff up and I don't get it. Thx in advance
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