Netflix Ushers In Era of UHD/4K Streaming - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 124 Old 04-10-2014, 06:38 AM
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You don't need the cable but its make a big difference!. Right now if you have a seiki tv seiki will give you adapter for free when you register it. (just pay shipping $9 bucks) wink.gif
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post #62 of 124 Old 04-10-2014, 07:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
 

2160/60p TV is not going to exits for a long, long time.

 

Widespread use of 2160/60p is certainly several years away.  However, the first major event to be broadcast to people's homes in 2160/60p, in multiple countries, is mere months away...

http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/news/y=2014/m=4/news=sony-and-fifa-announce-further-coverage-the-2014-fifa-world-cuptm-2313778.html

 

As best I can tell (in the US at least), to be able to see the 3 matches they have selected to broadcast in 4K in your home, you must own the Sony 4K media player, which only works with Sony's 4K displays.  However, if you do not own the Sony 4K media player and a Sony 4K display (or have a friend who does), they will also be showing it in 4K in select theaters.

 

Here's an interesting article that describes how FIFA has requested that all teams wear a simple all light or all dark colored uniform in order to reduce the number of colors on the field, so that the broadcast can be compressed further without losing significant color information/detail...

 

http://www.whathifi.com/blog/will-4k-ultra-hd-be-a-winner-at-the-2014-world-cup

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post #63 of 124 Old 04-10-2014, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by GregLee View Post

Check me if I'm wrong, but it seems that no one knows whether at a given bit rate and using a given codec, streaming 4k looks or sounds any better than streaming 2k. Even if 4k does give us better quality than 2k (even that seems debatable), it could be that there is no improvement at bit rates that are currently feasible into homes over the internet. Should we spend our money on new TVs with UHD and H.265 or instead try to rent more bandwidth from ISPs?

Correct me if I'm wrong; but I don't believe anyone said the same bitrate & same codec with streaming 4K is better than 2K. What Netflix is planning to do is several times (about 15mbps) the bitrate and h.265 which is supposedly twice as efficient as h.264. I've read several sources that say it will be approximately equivalent to 30mbps of h.264. Now that's a little less than Blu Ray; but it's a hell of a lot more than current Netflix, or broadcast tv for that matter.

Whether or not "we" spend money on 4k TVs is a personal decision. Doesn't sound like you are inclined to do it. I have and some of the best money I've ever spent was replacing my 65vt25 Panasonic Plasma with the Samsung F9000. Even my wife, who only "tolerates" my audio video purchases, loves the new TV. TWC on paper provides me with more than enough bandwidth to support the Netflix 4k streaming. If that doesn't work out, I'll deal with the problem at that time.
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post #64 of 124 Old 04-10-2014, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by rlb View Post

Whether or not "we" spend money on 4k TVs is a personal decision. Doesn't sound like you are inclined to do it.
I really have no opinion whether 4k streaming is worth paying for, as compared with 2k streaming, but I'd like to know. I think it is strange that there seems to be no information at all on whether the extra resolution for streaming produces any noticeable improvement in the picture that couldn't be attributed to a higher bit rate or to a more efficient codec.

I would be inclined to spend some money on Dolby Vision (or some kindred HDR system), since every reviewer I've read has said it gives a considerable improvement in picture quality.

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post #65 of 124 Old 04-10-2014, 09:04 AM
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I think we can all agree this is not "real" 4k. The compression profile is to high, bitrate is to low, there is no WCG data, etc. We will have to wait until the end of the year when the Blu-ray group and Sony announce the specs for 4K Blu-ray.
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post #66 of 124 Old 04-10-2014, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post


I think it is strange that there seems to be no information at all on whether the extra resolution for streaming produces any noticeable improvement in the picture that couldn't be attributed to a higher bit rate or to a more efficient codec.

 

Actually, the lack of information should be expected given that we do not have the same content available as both a 15.6Mbps 2160/24p H.265 stream and a 15.6Mbps 1080/24p H.265 stream in order to make an apples to apples comparison.

 

I can only guess what this comparison would look like, but if I were to do so, I think it would go something like this...

 

1) Assuming that the H.265 encoding is exactly twice as efficient as an H.264 encoding of identical quality (which may or may not be true), the adjusted bit rates for an H.264 encoding of the same streams would be 31.2Mbps.

2) For the 1080/24p stream, the PQ should be comparable to a blu-ray copy of the same content.

3) Since the frame rate for the two streams is the same, we can ignore it for now in terms of making our comparison.

4) A 1080p stream has a spatial resolution of 1920x1080 for a total of 2,073,600 pixels.  A 4K UHD stream has a spatial resolution of 3840x2160 for a total of 8,294,400 pixels (4 times as many as 1080p).

5) Since the bit rate for the two streams is the same, we can make the assumption that the average amount of information per pixel in the 1080p stream would be 4 times the average amount of information per pixel in the 4K stream (because the total information is being divided between 1/4th the number of pixels).  Note: In reality, the amount of information per pixel varies for a compressed stream.  For example, if a group of adjacent pixels have the same color and brightness, the compression algorithm can reduce the amount of information required per pixel in that region.  Similarly, if there is very little motion or change of color/brightness of the same pixel in multiple frames, then the compression algorithm can reduce the amount of information required for that pixel in subsequent frames by effectively copying it from one frame to the next.

6) Based on the above, for sequences where the level of compression in the 1080p stream has reached its limit (i.e. the point where further compression would result in loss of information), this would imply that the same sequence in the 4K stream would have to be loosing information.  This could be apparent as either loss of color saturation, loss of contrast, loss of minute detail, jagged edges, or another form of compression artifact.

7) On the other hand, for sequences where the 1080p stream still has room for further compression without loss of information, the 4K stream might still hold up to the original uncompressed image quality.

 

In the end, it all depends on how busy your video is.  If you were to film a blank wall with a stationary camera, your video could theoretically be compressed to the size of a high res jpeg without losing any detail.  Using a higher bit rate on that same video wouldn't gain you anything.  On the other hand, if the scene you are filming has fast motion and a wide variety of colors, with differing levels of shade and brightness, then the size of the compressed file would need to be much larger in order to capture all of that information.

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post #67 of 124 Old 04-10-2014, 12:47 PM
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We need to take services like Netflix, spotify, vudu, etc, etc. and put them in the right category. They are there for convenience and not for quality.
I wish the industry would concentrate on a replacement for Blu-ray. No more spinning disk but something flash memory based.
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post #68 of 124 Old 04-10-2014, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by kevon27 View Post

We need to take services like Netflix, spotify, vudu, etc, etc. and put them in the right category. They are there for convenience and not for quality.
I wish the industry would concentrate on a replacement for Blu-ray. No more spinning disk but something flash memory based.

 

I'm not sure that I trust flash memory for archival of copy righted material (i.e. something I would have to repurchase rather than simply redownload or copy from another source) for a decade plus.  If you can prove that a flash drive has the same or better durability over time as a disc then I would be all for it.

 

Form factor is also important.  It needs to be something that can either be slipped into a CD wallet, or, they need to make special racks/containers that can hold them in an organized manner.  The last thing I want is a pile of 300 thumb drives with 1 movie on each.

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post #69 of 124 Old 04-10-2014, 04:03 PM
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Would it be feasible to:
1. Have the ISPs charge a lower rate for downloading between 12AM and 8AM and on weekends when businesses aren't using resources? When cell phone service first came out - and bandwidth limited - they had time of day pricing. So did old Ma Bell for nearly a century. Now there is unlimited bandwidth, no time of day differential.
2. To set up a system, a box, whatever, to download your 2 hour movie to a storage device. It might take 4 hours to DL enough data to play back at extremely high quality bit rates. If you have fast enough service, you might not need buffering at all (50MB+)? This could be done at the cheaper "off-hour" rate.)
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post #70 of 124 Old 04-10-2014, 04:10 PM
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The operators can do it.
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post #71 of 124 Old 04-10-2014, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevon27 View Post

We need to take services like Netflix, spotify, vudu, etc, etc. and put them in the right category. They are there for convenience and not for quality.
I wish the industry would concentrate on a replacement for Blu-ray. No more spinning disk but something flash memory based.

I like that idea, but spinning sic is more durable and has better longevity, flash can still fail and become corrupt.
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post #72 of 124 Old 04-10-2014, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by kluken View Post

Not sure I would say Netflix 1080P streams look incredible. I would say they have improved and if you get SuperHD stream then it looks good, but I can tell it is streamed content vs BD. No I am sure they are giving House of Card some preference to encoding and such as it does look very good, but I still see bad banding and dithering, rare, but it is there especially on wide scenes where you see like swaths of the sky or similar colors.

Yeah 1080p Netflix streams are far from incredible. I would say barely worth paying for the service. In fact I canceled my subscription. I do Redbox BD now.
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post #73 of 124 Old 04-11-2014, 07:08 AM
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Interesting to compare Netflix 4k / UHD with Netflix super 1080p enhanced with the Seiki U-vision 4k adapter (technicolor 4k image certified) . I am happy with the results using the adapter I see from the Netflix app on my Samsung 4k blue ray player (7500) connected to my Seiki 55" 4k tv . Initial reviews for the adapter and cable version are available on Amazon .
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post #74 of 124 Old 04-11-2014, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by rocostello View Post

Interesting to compare Netflix 4k / UHD with Netflix super 1080p enhanced with the Seiki U-vision 4k adapter (technicolor 4k image certified) . I am happy with the results using the adapter I see from the Netflix app on my Samsung 4k blue ray player (7500) connected to my Seiki 55" 4k tv . Initial reviews for the adapter and cable version are available on Amazon .

What's the difference in using the Seiki Adapter vs. just using the Seiki cable?  I still don't know how the Adapter works. Can you explain?

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post #75 of 124 Old 04-11-2014, 07:41 AM
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With the adapter you will need an additional quality HDMI cable . Both are USB powered . Both units process progressive signals (60hz) at 480p , 576p , 720p , 1080p for picture quality enhancement . Looks like 576p is at 50 hz only. For 4k up-conversion also you will need 1080p at 24/25/30 hz as input . Hope that helps .
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post #76 of 124 Old 04-11-2014, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by rocostello View Post

Interesting to compare Netflix 4k / UHD with Netflix super 1080p enhanced with the Seiki U-vision 4k adapter (technicolor 4k image certified) . I am happy with the results using the adapter I see from the Netflix app on my Samsung 4k blue ray player (7500) connected to my Seiki 55" 4k tv . Initial reviews for the adapter and cable version are available on Amazon .

 

Can the Seiki 4K set not upscale 1080p content to 4K internally?  If it can, all you should need is a device that can stream Netflix and a regular HDMI cable.  Care to expand on how your comparison was interesting or what you were using for the comparison?

 

Not to be rude, but there have been a rash of posts about the Seiki 4K set and adaptor cables which look suspiciously like advertisements in threads which had nothing to do with Seiki except for the fact that we are discussing 4K.

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post #77 of 124 Old 04-11-2014, 08:35 AM
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I thought this season of House of Cards looked fantastic. Great show and the picture quality for a streaming show was very good. It may not be Blu ray but it was still very good, IMO. 

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post #78 of 124 Old 04-11-2014, 08:58 AM
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My Seiki 4k tv does not have an internal 4k up scaler which is why I have the 4k Samsung DVD player . It is more like a monitor . The comparison is in the future tense since I don't have a tv with the H.265 decoder . Perhaps some one on the thread with such a tv could do such a comparison if interested and report the results . Several first generation 4k sets don't have such a decoder . I am in no way financially connected with Seiki so it is not an advertisement . In the end everyone will have to make their own judgement based on available information .
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post #79 of 124 Old 04-11-2014, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocostello View Post

My Seiki 4k tv does not have an internal 4k up scaler which is why I have the 4k Samsung DVD player . It is more like a monitor . The comparison is in the future tense since I don't have a tv with the H.265 decoder . Perhaps some one on the thread with such a tv could do such a comparison if interested and report the results . Several first generation 4k sets don't have such a decoder . I am in no way financially connected with Seiki so it is not an advertisement . In the end everyone will have to make their own judgement based on available information .

If it is LCD, it is "fixed pixel". Therefore it can't show anything but 4k. Either it gets 4k via streaming, HDMI, etc., or it must upscale internally to show the video. If you can input cable/satellite signals direct into the Seiki, and it shows the image, it is upscaling to 4k.

It definitely is a monitor if you can't show any input but 4k.
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post #80 of 124 Old 04-11-2014, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by rlb View Post

If it is LCD, it is "fixed pixel". Therefore it can't show anything but 4k. Either it gets 4k via streaming, HDMI, etc., or it must upscale internally to show the video. If you can input cable/satellite signals direct into the Seiki, and it shows the image, it is upscaling to 4k.

It definitely is a monitor if you can't show any input but 4k.[/. I think we are getting off topic which was Netflix 4k UHD which we need to get back to . It is a LCD/LED tv which without apps and 3D is more like a monitor but not a pure monitor which I tried to indicate . In order to view non 4k sources in 4k (30 hz or less ) you need the help of a 4k upscaling player or the U-vision adapter which Seiki distributed to owners of their tvs due of the lack of 4k content . My Verizon Fios STB inputs 1080p at 60 hz and that is what the tv shows - remote allows one to monitor tv display frequency . There is no upscaling internally for 4k . With HDMI 1.4 the Seiki tv can't show 4k at 60 hz.
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post #81 of 124 Old 04-11-2014, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by rlb View Post


If it is LCD, it is "fixed pixel". Therefore it can't show anything but 4k. Either it gets 4k via streaming, HDMI, etc., or it must upscale internally to show the video. If you can input cable/satellite signals direct into the Seiki, and it shows the image, it is upscaling to 4k.

It definitely is a monitor if you can't show any input but 4k.

 

It seems that the 1st Gen Seiki 4K sets could upscale to 4K, but did a terrible job of it, so you would be better served by turning the display's processing off and use an external device to do the upscaling, such as the blu-ray player, AVR, or their cable adaptor.

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post #82 of 124 Old 04-11-2014, 01:54 PM
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If u don't have the codec built in to whatever device that has the Netflix app you don't even get the Ultra option just regular HD
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post #83 of 124 Old 04-12-2014, 12:59 PM
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What really needs to be done is download the content to a device then play it. This way you eliminate the need to stream the content, and are not at the mercy of maintaining quality of bandwidth while streaming. This or fit the content on 100gb Blu-ray discs and release compatible players.
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post #84 of 124 Old 04-12-2014, 06:49 PM
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^ TiVo does this for Amazon purchases. It's great, likely even more awesome if you live on DSL. You can still rent in HD.
And as noted Vudu does this on the PC.
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post #85 of 124 Old 04-13-2014, 02:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyoAJB View Post
 

 

Widespread use of 2160/60p is certainly several years away.  However, the first major event to be broadcast to people's homes in 2160/60p, in multiple countries, is mere months away...

http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/news/y=2014/m=4/news=sony-and-fifa-announce-further-coverage-the-2014-fifa-world-cuptm-2313778.html

 

As best I can tell (in the US at least), to be able to see the 3 matches they have selected to broadcast in 4K in your home, you must own the Sony 4K media player, which only works with Sony's 4K displays.  However, if you do not own the Sony 4K media player and a Sony 4K display (or have a friend who does), they will also be showing it in 4K in select theaters.

 

Here's an interesting article that describes how FIFA has requested that all teams wear a simple all light or all dark colored uniform in order to reduce the number of colors on the field, so that the broadcast can be compressed further without losing significant color information/detail...

 

http://www.whathifi.com/blog/will-4k-ultra-hd-be-a-winner-at-the-2014-world-cup

 

They aren't broadcasting any of the matches. The article only mentions that Sony will produce a few matches in 4k as well as a film, for later distribution.

 

No live broadcast.


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post #86 of 124 Old 04-13-2014, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by sytech View Post

I think we can all agree this is not "real" 4k. The compression profile is to high, bitrate is to low, there is no WCG data, etc. We will have to wait until the end of the year when the Blu-ray group and Sony announce the specs for 4K Blu-ray.
The UHD 4K videos I have seen on youtube taken with the new UHD 4K Sony AX100 camcorder are much better than any 1080p camcorder that I have seen. I have the new Panasonic GH4 camera on pre-order that has cinema 4K (4096x2160) along with UHD 4K (3840x2160) modes and the video are also much better than 1080p. The AX100 top bitrate is 60Mbps and the GH4 200Mbps.


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post #87 of 124 Old 04-13-2014, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by kevon27 View Post

We need to take services like Netflix, spotify, vudu, etc, etc. and put them in the right category. They are there for convenience and not for quality.
I wish the industry would concentrate on a replacement for Blu-ray. No more spinning disk but something flash memory based.
I give you thumbs down for that one, the disc is still the best.
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post #88 of 124 Old 04-13-2014, 11:43 AM
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I give you thumbs down for that one, the disc is still the best.
Disc is the best for consumer video. Professional systems rarely if ever use them for video. It would be nice if there was a service that could use one's flash memory to rent material or transfer to an approved server. Writing to thumb drives right now would probably be too slow for a retail point of sale operation. Obviously security would be a big issue.


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post #89 of 124 Old 04-13-2014, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by jogiba View Post

The UHD 4K videos I have seen on youtube taken with the new UHD 4K Sony AX100 camcorder are much better than any 1080p camcorder that I have seen. I have the new Panasonic GH4 camera on pre-order that has cinema 4K (4096x2160) along with UHD 4K (3840x2160) modes and the video are also much better than 1080p.
And now the upcoming Sony A7s. Even the 4K video from mobile phones is better than I expected. Unlike HD which came in thorough the top, 4K is also coming up from the bottom. 4K home movies will probably occur before 4K OTA.


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post #90 of 124 Old 04-13-2014, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by TVOD View Post

And now the upcoming Sony A7s. Even the 4K video from mobile phones is better than I expected. Unlike HD which came in thorough the top, 4K is also coming up from the bottom. 4K home movies will probably occur before 4K OTA.
The new Sony A7s does not have internal 4K ,only with external recorder but is the best low light camera I have ever seen. The Samsung Note 3 has 4K and they sold 10 million in just the first two months !
http://www.engadget.com/2013/12/10/samsung-note-3-10-million-sold/


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