Netflix Ushers In Era of UHD/4K Streaming - Page 6 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #151 of 171 Old 02-14-2015, 09:57 AM
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I second the post on UltraFlix picture quality--the best out there as far as I have seen.
I need Google fiber... Got Comcast 50 mb and I need more.
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post #152 of 171 Old 02-14-2015, 03:05 PM
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I'd rather have 720p video with DTS-HD than 4k with 384kbps AC3. Bring on the audio!
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post #153 of 171 Old 02-14-2015, 06:24 PM
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I'd rather have 720p video with DTS-HD than 4k with 384kbps AC3. Bring on the audio!
Ain't gonna happen any time soon. You still have to use discs to get the best of both worlds.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #154 of 171 Old 02-15-2015, 07:27 AM
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Ain't gonna happen any time soon. You still have to use discs to get the best of both worlds.
I know
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post #155 of 171 Old 04-27-2015, 03:37 PM
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I've got a new 4K set (a fairly "budget" one, the LG 60UB8200), and when I tried to stream 4K content from its built-in Netflix app, it seemed like it was accessing the content, but the indicator in the corner of the screen said HD, not UHD. (And the picture seemed like normal Netflix streaming.)

In looking at Netflix's web site, they indicated that for 4K streaming to work, I needed a compatible set (which it is), I needed to set my playback speed setting to "High" (it had been on "Auto"), and I also needed to upgrade my plan from 2-screens at once, to the 4-screens at once plan.....

Pretty annoying that even though I only need 2-screens at once, they force you to upgrade to the 4-screen plan, in order for UHD streaming to work....

Even with the plan change, it's still not clear to me if it will work, based on speed limitations of my internet connection, which is only 13 Mbit/sec. Neflix says you need 25, but we'll see what happens (tonight). If there's no point to it with my current internet connection, then I'll go back to the old 2-screen plan and save the $4/month..... (On the other hand, I've streamed some alleged 4K content from YouTube, and it SEEMS like it is working OK, and that I'm getting 4K. But admittedly it's hard to tell...)

In the end, I want to stream via my Blu-Ray player, rather than direct to the TV, since my long-in-the-tooth AVR doesn't do HDMI switching, and my cabling arrangement won't allow running an optical link from the TV back to the AVR. So I don't have good sound if I stream to the TV.... Blu-Ray players with 4K streaming are due out in the Fall sometime, right?
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post #156 of 171 Old 04-27-2015, 04:08 PM
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The plan change is a new thing
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post #157 of 171 Old 04-27-2015, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by rschleicher View Post
I've got a new 4K set (a fairly "budget" one, the LG 60UB8200), and when I tried to stream 4K content from its built-in Netflix app, it seemed like it was accessing the content, but the indicator in the corner of the screen said HD, not UHD. (And the picture seemed like normal Netflix streaming.)

In looking at Netflix's web site, they indicated that for 4K streaming to work, I needed a compatible set (which it is), I needed to set my playback speed setting to "High" (it had been on "Auto"), and I also needed to upgrade my plan from 2-screens at once, to the 4-screens at once plan.....

Pretty annoying that even though I only need 2-screens at once, they force you to upgrade to the 4-screen plan, in order for UHD streaming to work....

Even with the plan change, it's still not clear to me if it will work, based on speed limitations of my internet connection, which is only 13 Mbit/sec. Neflix says you need 25, but we'll see what happens (tonight). If there's no point to it with my current internet connection, then I'll go back to the old 2-screen plan and save the $4/month..... (On the other hand, I've streamed some alleged 4K content from YouTube, and it SEEMS like it is working OK, and that I'm getting 4K. But admittedly it's hard to tell...)

In the end, I want to stream via my Blu-Ray player, rather than direct to the TV, since my long-in-the-tooth AVR doesn't do HDMI switching, and my cabling arrangement won't allow running an optical link from the TV back to the AVR. So I don't have good sound if I stream to the TV.... Blu-Ray players with 4K streaming are due out in the Fall sometime, right?
You're internet throughput is too slow for their K-Mart quality UHD videos even with the plan upgrade. You want something in the 35 mbps range or greater to compensate for data packet loss, net congestion, etc. DSL is terrible for streaming as well, if that's what you have.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #158 of 171 Old 04-30-2015, 02:57 AM
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Originally Posted by rschleicher View Post
I've got a new 4K set (a fairly "budget" one, the LG 60UB8200), and when I tried to stream 4K content from its built-in Netflix app, it seemed like it was accessing the content, but the indicator in the corner of the screen said HD, not UHD. (And the picture seemed like normal Netflix streaming.)

In looking at Netflix's web site, they indicated that for 4K streaming to work, I needed a compatible set (which it is), I needed to set my playback speed setting to "High" (it had been on "Auto"), and I also needed to upgrade my plan from 2-screens at once, to the 4-screens at once plan.....

Pretty annoying that even though I only need 2-screens at once, they force you to upgrade to the 4-screen plan, in order for UHD streaming to work....

Even with the plan change, it's still not clear to me if it will work, based on speed limitations of my internet connection, which is only 13 Mbit/sec. Neflix says you need 25, but we'll see what happens (tonight). If there's no point to it with my current internet connection, then I'll go back to the old 2-screen plan and save the $4/month..... (On the other hand, I've streamed some alleged 4K content from YouTube, and it SEEMS like it is working OK, and that I'm getting 4K. But admittedly it's hard to tell...)

In the end, I want to stream via my Blu-Ray player, rather than direct to the TV, since my long-in-the-tooth AVR doesn't do HDMI switching, and my cabling arrangement won't allow running an optical link from the TV back to the AVR. So I don't have good sound if I stream to the TV.... Blu-Ray players with 4K streaming are due out in the Fall sometime, right?

How did your Netflix testing go at 13Mbs?


Thanks,


Bob
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post #159 of 171 Old 05-04-2015, 08:55 AM
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Perhaps the plan change reflects the added data throughput costs on their end, NetFlix having to pay ransom money to cable for unfettered throughput.
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post #160 of 171 Old 05-07-2015, 06:11 PM
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Besides a 4K smart TV, however, chances are you that you won’t have to worry about bandwidth. Ultraflix streams as low as 6 Mbits per second, on up to 25 Mbits/s for Platinum offerings. Taylor characterized 10-Mbit streaming as a sweet spot.
10 Mbps? Really? Maybe I am misreading it but that's a joke and I assume it includes audio. No way will that even come close to a disc based HD pq wise.
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post #161 of 171 Old 05-12-2015, 01:10 PM
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You're internet throughput is too slow for their K-Mart quality UHD videos even with the plan upgrade. You want something in the 35 mbps range or greater to compensate for data packet loss, net congestion, etc. DSL is terrible for streaming as well, if that's what you have.
Bigger Bandwidth is key!

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post #162 of 171 Old 06-17-2015, 10:06 PM
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I would say that if they are going to offer 4K/UHD content they need to work on improving the video quality. They also need to offer better quality audio! I have thought about Netflix but basically as a replacement for HBO or Cinemax. As far as I am concerned if I like a movie enough I will buy it on a physical disc that will give me the best video and audio presentation. I just do not see any streaming service being a replacement for owning a movie on disc. One day that may change but for the foreseeable future disc is king IMHO. Also the day that streaming replaces disc media is the day that collecting movies and owning them as collectibles will die! Something that digital downloads and streaming are doing to music.

Supporter of 1080p & 4K video / Supporter of Lossless PCM, Dolby True HD and DTS HD Master Audio / Say No To MP3 & WMA / Say no to Bose
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post #163 of 171 Old 07-20-2015, 06:43 AM
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I also wonder how much bandwidth these 4k streams will use. Going to need a blazing fast internet connection and also probably eat up a ton of your bandwidth allotment using it.
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post #164 of 171 Old 07-20-2015, 10:17 AM
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I also wonder how much bandwidth these 4k streams will use. Going to need a blazing fast internet connection and also probably eat up a ton of your bandwidth allotment using it.
I took a look at the Netflix web site, "Your Account" -> "Playback Settings", which is where one can specify "data usage" to get the data usage estimates. I also looked at the Help Center at "Internet Connection Speed Recommendations."

QualityInternet SpeedEst. Data Usagemy comments
Low1.5 Mbps0.3 GB/HrPathetically low quality
Medium3.0 Mbps0.7 GB/Hr480p
High5.0 Mbps3 GB/Hr for HD1080p
High25 Mbps7 GB/Hr for UHD2160p

Comcast currently has the 250GB/Mo. data usage cap suspended and are trialing several different plans. One number that seems to come up in their FAQ is a proposed 300 GB/Mo. cap.

Using the above estimated data usage and the 300 GB/Mo. proposed cap, my math comes up with these estimates of how many hours one could watch:

QualityPer MonthPer Week
Low (pathetic)1,000 Hrs.230 Hrs.
Medium (SD)429 Hrs.99 Hrs.
High (HD)100 Hrs.23 Hrs.
High (UHD)43 Hrs.10 Hrs.

(Some numbers may be off a bit due to rounding.)

It looks like if one wants to stream a whole lot of UHD from Netflix one would need a high data usage limit, or no limit.

My very humble setup:
Man Cave:Vizio E500i-A1 "Smart TV" (50-in 1080p 120Hz LED/LCD, has Netflix app.), Sony BDP-S3100 Blu-ray player, Roku N1000 (original model), PC (Windows 7), Comcast Internet (120Mbps/12Mbps).
Bedroom:LG 32LV3400-UA TV (32-in 768p 60Hz LED/LCD), HD DVR (Motorola RNG200N), Xfinity Comcast cable (Digital Preferred Plus), DVD/VHS player.
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post #165 of 171 Old 07-20-2015, 09:46 PM
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^^or a provider that has caps but isn't that strict on enforcement.


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post #166 of 171 Old 07-20-2015, 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark12547 View Post
I took a look at the Netflix web site, "Your Account" -> "Playback Settings", which is where one can specify "data usage" to get the data usage estimates. I also looked at the Help Center at "Internet Connection Speed Recommendations."

QualityInternet SpeedEst. Data Usagemy comments
Low1.5 Mbps0.3 GB/HrPathetically low quality
Medium3.0 Mbps0.7 GB/Hr480p
High5.0 Mbps3 GB/Hr for HD1080p
High25 Mbps7 GB/Hr for UHD2160p

Comcast currently has the 250GB/Mo. data usage cap suspended and are trialing several different plans. One number that seems to come up in their FAQ is a proposed 300 GB/Mo. cap.

Using the above estimated data usage and the 300 GB/Mo. proposed cap, my math comes up with these estimates of how many hours one could watch:

QualityPer MonthPer Week
Low (pathetic)1,000 Hrs.230 Hrs.
Medium (SD)429 Hrs.99 Hrs.
High (HD)100 Hrs.23 Hrs.
High (UHD)43 Hrs.10 Hrs.

(Some numbers may be off a bit due to rounding.)

It looks like if one wants to stream a whole lot of UHD from Netflix one would need a high data usage limit, or no limit.
I did some Netflix and Amazon UHD streaming tests. While the streaming spikes up to 78 Mbps, the average throughput was under 17 Mbps on Netflix. I've done addition tests since posting charts in this thread, and generally 17 Mbps seems the average throughput over time for netflix, 19 mbps average for Amazon on really high quality UHD titles, 12 Mbps on others. Not controlled testing, but good reference.
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post #167 of 171 Old 07-21-2015, 09:05 AM
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I did some Netflix and Amazon UHD streaming tests. While the streaming spikes up to 78 Mbps, the average throughput was under 17 Mbps on Netflix. I've done addition tests since posting charts in this thread, and generally 17 Mbps seems the average throughput over time for netflix, 19 mbps average for Amazon on really high quality UHD titles, 12 Mbps on others. Not controlled testing, but good reference.
Did you notice if there was a significant up-tick in throughput for action scenes? I recall reading in the past that Netflix recommends a higher rate than the average rate for two primary reasons: fast transitions (like action scenes) require more data but static scenes require less data so the average rate isn't sufficient for some scenes, and a higher capacity will allow buffers to fill/refill after transient latency issues.

My very humble setup:
Man Cave:Vizio E500i-A1 "Smart TV" (50-in 1080p 120Hz LED/LCD, has Netflix app.), Sony BDP-S3100 Blu-ray player, Roku N1000 (original model), PC (Windows 7), Comcast Internet (120Mbps/12Mbps).
Bedroom:LG 32LV3400-UA TV (32-in 768p 60Hz LED/LCD), HD DVR (Motorola RNG200N), Xfinity Comcast cable (Digital Preferred Plus), DVD/VHS player.
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post #168 of 171 Old 07-21-2015, 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark12547 View Post
Did you notice if there was a significant up-tick in throughput for action scenes? I recall reading in the past that Netflix recommends a higher rate than the average rate for two primary reasons: fast transitions (like action scenes) require more data but static scenes require less data so the average rate isn't sufficient for some scenes, and a higher capacity will allow buffers to fill/refill after transient latency issues.
The throughput patterns I see on both Netflix and Amazon streaming UHD titles leads me to believe that the bitrate is certainly variable. But both heavily buffer a good chunk of data at the start of the streaming session. As the stream continues they pre-download either something like 50 to 100 mb or 15 to 20 seconds of content.

If you look at some of the charts in the link in my last post you can see a burst of throughput at the start of a streaming session then moments of zero throughput followed by bursts. At certain peak prime time hours Amazon throttles the peak throughput limits from 60 or 70 Mbps to 30 Mbps or so. This does not impact streaming quality it just means longer 30 Mbps bursts of buffering/pre-downloading vs shorter 70 Mbps bursts. Either way there is enough buffer of data pre-downloaded that the content is rendered at the intended high quality at all times. So when Amazon throttles throughput to lower peaks it is not currently impacting quality.

Certainly action scenes consume a higher bitrate than static scenes. But that data was pre-downloaded 10 or 20 or more seconds before it displays on the TV much of the time. However Netflix and Amazon handle it, they are doing a decent job. Though 1080P Blueray still looks better than streaming UHD in my subjective personal opinion. It is a step in the right direction and certainly the content delivery method of the future.

The US residential broadband situation lags behind much of the developed world because of the lowish population density in most areas. Even with that disadvantage residential average bandwidth rates are increasing each month. Urban and suburban consumers who can afford it have or will have access to enough bandwidth to stream in high quality. I think by 2020 4K and 1080p blu ray purchases and rentals will be virtually limited to the rural and extremely picky consumers. It's just so much more convenient to search for content at home and stream it as soon as you decide what you want to watch.
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post #169 of 171 Old Yesterday, 07:11 AM
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It is a step in the right direction and certainly the content delivery method of the future.

The US residential broadband situation lags behind much of the developed world because of the lowish population density in most areas. Even with that disadvantage residential average bandwidth rates are increasing each month. Urban and suburban consumers who can afford it have or will have access to enough bandwidth to stream in high quality. I think by 2020 4K and 1080p blu ray purchases and rentals will be virtually limited to the rural and extremely picky consumers. It's just so much more convenient to search for content at home and stream it as soon as you decide what you want to watch.
It doesn't matter about speeds through the ISP. It's all the bottlenecks along the way. Your speed is only as fast as the slowest channel in the data path. That's a big problem with the internet infrastructure.

And, as you commented, for all this UHD streaming is still worse than a good Blu-ray.

Premium download services that meet or exceed disc capabilities (in both video and 24 bit lossless audio up to immersive standards) will be the only alternative to disc. However, they have their own possible issues of content ownership. They'll be more like very expensive rentals unlike discs as access to titles change and the ability to recover from data loss on the consumer end could be severely limited.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!

Last edited by Dan Hitchman; Yesterday at 10:15 AM.
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post #170 of 171 Old Today, 12:29 AM
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It doesn't matter about speeds through the ISP. It's all the bottlenecks along the way. Your speed is only as fast as the slowest channel in the data path. That's a big problem with the internet infrastructure.

And, as you commented, for all this UHD streaming is still worse than a good Blu-ray.

Premium download services that meet or exceed disc capabilities (in both video and 24 bit lossless audio up to immersive standards) will be the only alternative to disc. However, they have their own possible issues of content ownership. They'll be more like very expensive rentals unlike discs as access to titles change and the ability to recover from data loss on the consumer end could be severely limited.
The last mile to the residential customer is still the weakest link. The actual backbone across the lower 48 states has constantly increasing capacity. The rate of growth of capacity is increasing thanks to a Moore's law effect on cost and technology. I constantly get full 110 Mbps download throughput between Seattle and New York on my standard home cable 110/10 ISP connection in the semi-rural countryside of Seattle. 3 years ago that was not happening. Looking at the broadband digital divide maps, the southeast US is still limited, but most of the rest of the country doesn't have capacity and throughput issues. Except for localized last mile challenges which are mostly limited to rural areas these days.

And for rental vs ownership, I much prefer rental for 98% of what I watch these days. Video libraries just are not necessary beyond the special case movies. I do still buy Star Trek movie Blu Rays for example, but that's about it. Even if I rent the same movie three times over five years (unlikely) I will be paying about the same or less than if I buy the Blu Ray disc. And based on recent experience, the quality of the streaming rental keeps increasing over time. My new JS9000 TV Amazon app streams the same Moneyball movie that I bought a couple years ago at almost twice the bitrate of the same title on my Sony Blu Ray player Amazon app. Internet/ISP throuput and streaming encoding and hardware are all rapidly increasing the quality of delivery of the content. It just feels innevitable that streaming will replace disc for most content, for those who have access to and can afford it. This covers a good chunk of the population and that percentage will just keep increasing as time passes and tech continues to innovate.
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Originally Posted by peterfram View Post
It just feels innevitable that streaming will replace disc for most content, for those who have access to and can afford it. This covers a good chunk of the population and that percentage will just keep increasing as time passes and tech continues to innovate.

I consider streaming only an alternative for rentals, but a very expensive one by current prices.


If I want to rent a movie in HD then it will cost me 6 or 7 EURO, which is about halve of the price I pay when I buy the Blu-ray. That price is way too high compared to the prices for renting Blu-rays from the local store.


I like collecting movies so I save my money and buy Blu-rays when they reach the 10-12 EURO price range. For the movies I am less interested in I will wait until they arrive on Netflix for example, or just never watch them if I cannot rent them for a reasonable price.


For me a digital download will never replace collecting (i.e. buying) movies, unless they are DRM free and I actually "own" the movie like I "own" and can use a disc.
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