Sony Blames Blu-ray for "Bag of Hurt" - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 1354 Old 05-04-2014, 03:51 PM
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^Yea, but you're satisfied with a middling Vizio performer as your main display. :P


OUCH! smile.gif

Am I wrong, but can't streaming with enough buffer and bandwidth match anything that can be put on a disc? Digital files of 1 meg, 1000 megs, or 1000 gigs have the potential to look the same whether rendered by a disc player or by streaming. Please note 'potential' -- and I don't want to start a 'digital is digital and any perceived differences are delusions' battle. But can't really good streaming match bluray or 4K?

Yes, it's all just data and the same codes are used for streams and on disc. WIth enough bandwidth, it's entirely possible to beat the quality of disc-based formats, not just match them.


Also, a well-calibrated Vizio can give most TVs a run for their money, when configured correctly. But hey, what do I know... I mean seriously, I own a Vizio so that negates my THX certification and all the experiences I've had writing for AVS including this one and this one. I understand. frown.gif  


Keep doing what your doing imagic. Your doing an excellent job and I look forward to your posts because they are always informative. wink.gif
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post #362 of 1354 Old 05-04-2014, 03:52 PM
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I think iTunes movie downloads that match/beat Blu-ray are right around the corner. My guess is the next Apple TV will be the catalyst for that change. Just guessing.

Now you are thinking downloads will actually surpass Blu-ray?!

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post #363 of 1354 Old 05-04-2014, 03:52 PM
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Also, a well-calibrated Vizio can give most TVs a run for their money, when configured correctly. But hey, what do I know... I mean seriously, I own a Vizio so that negates my THX certification and all the experiences I've had writing for AVS including this one and this one. I understand. frown.gif  

It's that you committed the worst possible crime in the eyes of a lot of people: you did not spend 100.000 dollars on cables, so you're not cool and never will be rolleyes.gif
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post #364 of 1354 Old 05-04-2014, 03:55 PM
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Yes, it's all just data and the same codecs are used for streams and on disc. With enough bandwidth, it's entirely possible to beat the quality of disc-based formats, not just match them—because discs have limits on bitrates. With gigabit Internet, you can blow away Blu-ray.


Also, a well-calibrated Vizio can give most TVs a run for their money, when configured correctly. But hey, what do I know... I mean seriously, I own a Vizio so that negates my THX certification and all the experiences I've had writing for AVS including this one and this one. I understand. frown.gif  

And let it be known: a certification course does not make one a pro calibrator. Top-of-the-line calibration equipment (Jeti 1211, etc.), vast knowledge from experience having done thousands of calibrations does. It's no different that someone who takes an ISF course then thinks he's a pro.

You are making a very loooong stretch their on your Vizio, but you also think downloading will surpass blu-ray quality any time soon, so what do I know. smile.gif
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post #365 of 1354 Old 05-04-2014, 03:56 PM - Thread Starter
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I think iTunes movie downloads that match/beat Blu-ray are right around the corner. My guess is the next Apple TV will be the catalyst for that change. Just guessing.

Now you are thinking downloads will actually surpass Blu-ray?!

 

If you mean the 1080p Blu-ray we know today, then yeah. Soon. I didn't just start thinking that either, the trend is clear. It's only a question of when, not if. 


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post #366 of 1354 Old 05-04-2014, 03:59 PM
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If you mean the 1080p Blu-ray we know today, then yeah. Soon. I didn't just start thinking that either, the trend is clear. It's only a question of when, not if. 

Explain to me how that will happen. How will a download most definitely soon surpass a high bit AVC encode of a Blu-ray movie?

No offense, but I really don't know where you are pulling out half of this stuff you claim...it's becoming comical and I have literally chuckled out loud a few times at these posts of yours. smile.gif
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post #367 of 1354 Old 05-04-2014, 04:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes, it's all just data and the same codecs are used for streams and on disc. With enough bandwidth, it's entirely possible to beat the quality of disc-based formats, not just match them—because discs have limits on bitrates. With gigabit Internet, you can blow away Blu-ray.


Also, a well-calibrated Vizio can give most TVs a run for their money, when configured correctly. But hey, what do I know... I mean seriously, I own a Vizio so that negates my THX certification and all the experiences I've had writing for AVS including this one and this one. I understand. frown.gif  

Most pro calibrators would disagree with that assertion about the Vizio giving any other TV a run for the money. I did get a chuckle out of that comment though. Funny!


And let it be known: a certification course does not make one a pro calibrator. Top-of-the-line calibration equipment (Jeti 1211, etc.), vast knowledge from experience having done thousands of calibrations does. It's no different that someone who takes an ISF course then thinks he's a pro. smile.gif

 

I hate to say it, but calibration is pretty simple stuff. It's a two hour procedure that requires some specialized knowledge. It is a repeatable process performed as a service, kind of like being a good auto mechanic or a plumber.

I never said I was a pro calibrator, actually I'm a pro photographer who also produces music and video—however, there's a lot of overlap when it comes to the principles involved. Unfortunately, calibrating TVs doesn't pay as well as taking pictures, or else I'd consider buying some of that gear and hanging a shingle. As it stands, the knowledge is useful to me but I don't plan to make it my career.

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post #368 of 1354 Old 05-04-2014, 04:03 PM
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I hate to say it, but calibration is pretty simple stuff. I never said I was a pro calibrator, actually I'm a pro photographer who also produces music and video—however, there's a lot of overlap when it comes to the principles involved. Unfortunately, calibrating TVs doesn't pay as well as taking pictures, or else I'd consider buying some of that gear and hanging a shingle. As it stands, the knowledge is useful to me but I don't plan to make it my career.

Some calibrators spend hours on a display optimizing it. But, simple for you, huh?

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post #369 of 1354 Old 05-04-2014, 04:04 PM
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Now you are thinking downloads will actually surpass Blu-ray?!

Considering my and many other's bandwidth is more per second than the max spec of Blu-ray already, why is this such a difficult eventually to not see coming? It's not like I can't download one of my Blu-ray ISOs from somewhere else already now either. Imagine a service that could upgrade codecs with a simple update almost invisible to the user vs the nightmare of firmware updates now. Or basically unlimited subtitle or foreign audio tracks? I'm sure licensing will keep that from happening, but it's a much more likely possibility with on-demand than disc.

I thought this was AVS. Aren't we slaves to the bleeding edge? ^_^
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post #370 of 1354 Old 05-04-2014, 04:05 PM
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Explain to me how that will happen. How will a download most definitely soon surpass a high bit AVC encode of a Blu-ray movie?

No offense, but I really don't know where you are pulling out half of this stuff you claim...it's becoming comical and I have literally chuckled out loud a few times at these posts of yours. smile.gif

Actually, it already exists. It is called "video unlimited 4k", it is offered by Sony. About 70 movies (maybe a little more), couple of tv shows, documentaries and music videos. It's been there for almost a year.
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post #371 of 1354 Old 05-04-2014, 04:05 PM - Thread Starter
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I hate to say it, but calibration is pretty simple stuff. I never said I was a pro calibrator, actually I'm a pro photographer who also produces music and video—however, there's a lot of overlap when it comes to the principles involved. Unfortunately, calibrating TVs doesn't pay as well as taking pictures, or else I'd consider buying some of that gear and hanging a shingle. As it stands, the knowledge is useful to me but I don't plan to make it my career.

Some calibrators spend hours on a display optimizing it. But, simple for you, huh?

 

I took the THX class and successfully calibrated a bunch of panels using pro gear and software. I've worked with color and understood color theory for over twenty years. So yes, it's relatively easy for me.

If a calibration is taking hours, there's probably something wrong with the TV.


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post #372 of 1354 Old 05-04-2014, 04:06 PM
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Considering my and many other's bandwidth is more per second than the max spec of Blu-ray already, why is this such a difficult eventually to not see coming? It's not like I can't download one of my Blu-ray ISOs from somewhere else already now either. Imagine a service that could upgrade codecs with a simple update almost invisible to the user vs the nightmare of firmware updates now. Or basically unlimited subtitle or foreign audio tracks? I'm sure licensing will keep that from happening, but it's a much more likely possibility with on-demand than disc.

I thought this was AVS. Aren't we slaves to the bleeding edge? ^_^

That's all we have hear from the download/streaming people who claim it will surpass BD.

"Just imagine!" "Just wait" "you will be able to streaming a movie in a few seconds that will be better than Blu," etc.

The realities never allow it to happen and that won't change. If it does, then sure, I will sign up.

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post #373 of 1354 Old 05-04-2014, 04:09 PM
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Actually, it already exists. It is called "video unlimited 4k", it is offered by Sony. About 70 movies (maybe a little more), couple of tv shows, documentaries and music videos. It's been there for almost a year.

I'm talking 1080p vs 1080p.

Not 1080p vs 4K.

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post #374 of 1354 Old 05-04-2014, 04:16 PM
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The realities never allow it to happen and that won't change. If it does, then sure, I will sign up.

It's ALREADY changing. I can download 10 bit 444 4K clips and watch them on my computer (Or have fun color grading them), and it's much better than blu. As far as I'm concerned, that means the internet has already passed the capabilities of blu-ray in some ways. I know it's not what you had in mind, but I've got my benchmarks of the future and you've got yours.

And considering half the people I work with already have Google fiber, we're all chomping at the bit for stuff that will really flex the muscle of this bandwidth. :-P
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post #375 of 1354 Old 05-04-2014, 04:18 PM
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Also, a well-calibrated Vizio can give most TVs a run for their money, when configured correctly. But hey, what do I know... I mean seriously, I own a Vizio so that negates my THX certification and all the experiences I've had writing for AVS including this one and this one. I understand. frown.gif  

I dunno -- having a Vizio isn't as bad as shooting a judge. . . wait a minute -- it's WORSE! Man what were you thinking? wink.gif

Hard to beat the PQ to dollar ratio on Vizios.

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post #376 of 1354 Old 05-04-2014, 04:39 PM
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post #377 of 1354 Old 05-04-2014, 04:41 PM
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I wish Apple, Amazon, etc would let me download an uncompressed blu ray version of a movie, instead of streaming. Rent the movie, download the 25GB of data, watch the movie and then it automatically is deleted. Heck, Apple could download it to my 1TB TC, and then stream it to my Apple TV. After I have watched it, it gets wiped off my TC. I get blu ray quality instead of the current low res streaming junk out there.

Apple/iTunes does the download part now, it's just not at Blu-Ray quality. You can download purchased iTunes movies to your own computer/HD at the same quality (1080p, DD 5.1) and compression as you stream them from iTunes. An Apple TV let's you stream your downloaded movies from either the Apple cloud or your own computer.
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post #378 of 1354 Old 05-04-2014, 04:55 PM
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Explain to me how that will happen. How will a download most definitely soon surpass a high bit AVC encode of a Blu-ray movie?

No offense, but I really don't know where you are pulling out half of this stuff you claim...it's becoming comical and I have literally chuckled out loud a few times at these posts of yours. smile.gif


Most people only see things from their own perspective, someone has fast internet for a reasonable cost, therefore everyone does.  Some folks will never understand why people don't just move to a place with fast internet, I don't have to justify my life to folks, so lets just say it makes a lot of since for me too live where I do, without fast internet for a reasonable cost.  Should I just pay the $200/month for fast reliable internet?  It's not worth it, I can save the money and buy Blu-ray for everything I watch and still be money ahead but instead I'll Netflix some, buy some and stream some depending on quality, immediacy and cost.  With the money I save I'll get a better sound system, get a better TV etc., quality on a budget.

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post #379 of 1354 Old 05-04-2014, 04:57 PM
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Yes, it's all just data and the same codecs are used for streams and on disc. With enough bandwidth, it's entirely possible to beat the quality of disc-based formats, not just match them—because discs have limits on bitrates. With gigabit Internet, you can blow away Blu-ray. ...

Absolutely - there's room for lots of improvement on Blu-Ray picture quality.

I understand all the talk about adopting a wider (than Rec709) color gamut on the new UHD spec but I'd much, much rather see improvements on compression ratios. The difference in the picture quality between Blu-Ray (4:2:0) and ProRes 10bit 4:4:4 (or even 10bit 4:2:2) is huge in Rec709! I'd easily trade a less compressed Rec709 spec/delivery-format for a heavily compressed P3 spec/delivery-format (please not another 4:2:0 delivery format!).
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post #380 of 1354 Old 05-04-2014, 05:15 PM
 
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It's that you committed the worst possible crime in the eyes of a lot of people: you did not spend 100.000 dollars on cables, so you're not cool and never will be rolleyes.gif
Did you really just now try to equate expensive HDMI cables to display technology? There are actually quantifiable differences between different display technologies and even between different tiers within those display technologies. Those HDMI cables you're trying to use as some kind of gotcha' represent little more than snake oil, and this isn't a matter of coolness but merely credibility. When you have a compromised display and attempt to make the argument that streaming equals Blu-ray, PERIOD, this belies belief. Vizio may yet live up to the hype that they regurgitate year after year, but until that manifests outside of a showroom, I cannot take a comparison of high-def video on a Vizio as the final word.
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post #381 of 1354 Old 05-04-2014, 05:33 PM - Thread Starter
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It's that you committed the worst possible crime in the eyes of a lot of people: you did not spend 100.000 dollars on cables, so you're not cool and never will be rolleyes.gif
Did you really just now try to equate expensive HDMI cables to display technology? There are actually quantifiable differences between different display technologies and even between different tiers within those display technologies. Those HDMI cables you're trying to use as some kind of gotcha' represent little more than snake oil, and this isn't a matter of coolness but merely credibility. When you have a compromised display and attempt to make the argument that streaming equals Blu-ray, PERIOD, this belies belief. Vizio may yet live up to the hype that they regurgitate year after year, but until that manifests outside of a showroom, I cannot take a comparison of high-def video on a Vizio as the final word.

 

How well a Vizio calibrates and performs, and how Blu-ray picture/sound quality compares to streaming and download options, are two totally unrelated topics. I never said that currently-available 1080p streaming beats Blu-ray, I only said that the moment when it does is right around the corner.

 

I have said that Vudu HDX often gets close to Blu-ray quality, and I expect a UHD/4K variant will match or beat Blu-ray. It's just a prediction, but I stand by it.

Picking on what brand of TV I own is a really cheap shot, middle-school stuff. Let's get past that.

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post #382 of 1354 Old 05-04-2014, 05:39 PM
 
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It's not intended to be demeaning, I just don't think a middling performer is the best way to observe the differences in video performance. You did say you also had a projector, so I am willing to admit that you've made such comparisons on a few display techs (though only a few high-end JVCs will give you deep blacks from what I understand).

While they may be close in quality, the most recent HDX title I rented (the latest Fast and Furious) when observed on my ZT60 was not up to Blu-ray quality especially in scenes with low lighting where posterization and other artifacts tend to manifest. I am willing to bet that these would not be anywhere near as obvious on the Vizio. That's the only purpose for me bringing it up since you are loudly making these quality comparison declarations.
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post #383 of 1354 Old 05-04-2014, 05:47 PM
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While they may be close in quality, the most recent HDX title I rented (the latest Fast and Furious) when observed on my ZT60 was not up to Blu-ray quality especially in scenes with low lighting where posterization and other artifacts tend to manifest. I am willing to bet that these would not be anywhere near as obvious on you Vizio. That's the only point that I brought it up.

How many more people own Vizio televisions than own ZT60s? We (as an group of enthusiasts) understand and look for differences. We understand plasma produced the superior image. There weren't enough of us to continue making it viable for Panasonic going forward.

Someone with an LG or Element Black Friday special edge lit LED probably wont do that. They'll be more angry the movies still have letter box bars in HD.

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post #384 of 1354 Old 05-04-2014, 05:49 PM
 
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That's neither here nor there since this site purports to cater to the hobbyists and not the more casual types. Fortunately, there are some multi-dimming zoned FALDs coming this year (to say nothing of the OLEDs) that will help to fill the void left behind by Panasonic's plasma exit.
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It's not intended to be demeaning, I just don't think a middling performer is the best way to observe the differences in video performance. You did say you also had a projector, so I am willing to admit that you've made such comparisons on a few display techs (though only a few high-end JVCs will give you deep blacks from what I understand).

While they may be close in quality, the most recent HDX title I rented (the latest Fast and Furious) when observed on my ZT60 was not up to Blu-ray quality especially in scenes with low lighting where posterization and other artifacts tend to manifest. I am willing to bet that these would not be anywhere near as obvious on the Vizio. That's the only purpose for me bringing it up since you are loudly making these quality comparison declarations.

 

I have that movie in HDX and I just took a look at it. There are tons of blocking artifacts in the shadows in the dark scenes, my Vizio has no problem showing them.

 

Had I done one of my iTunes/Vudu/Blu-ray comparisons on Fast and Furious 6, I'm sure I would have noted that Blu-ray was quite superior for that title, just based on a brief glimpse.

 

My TV is not the problem. On to what's next.


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post #386 of 1354 Old 05-04-2014, 05:58 PM
 
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That's fantastic. However, neither is the earlier insinuation that the quality between the best quality streaming solutions (Vudu HDX) and Blu-ray have reached parity...apologies if I'm inaccurately paraphrasing you here, but this thread has almost reached 400 posts, and I'm relying upon memory of what was stated in the beginning.
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post #387 of 1354 Old 05-04-2014, 05:58 PM
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That's neither here nor there since this site purports to cater to the hobbyists and not the more casual types. Fortunately, there are some multi-dimming zoned FALDs coming this year (to say nothing of the OLEDs) that will help to fill the void left behind by Panasonic's plasma exit.

i think that there will continue to be a format of some sort that caters to high end a/v. there is a lot of money to be made there and it wont be abandoned. the precedent exists in laserdisc and superbit dvd.

but it isn't hard to imagine the industry at large moving away from physical sales. if the majority of televisions in homes are of mid level (and lower) quality then a/v quality might not be the deciding factor. convenience and price will be.

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Integration for whole home ATSC, CableCARD, FM radio, Blu-Ray, HD-DVD, DVD, VHS control & capture, video games, and archived & streaming media playback
Mironto's Panasonic plasma black level restoration guide
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post #388 of 1354 Old 05-04-2014, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by chirpie View Post

It's ALREADY changing. I can download 10 bit 444 4K clips and watch them on my computer (Or have fun color grading them), and it's much better than blu. As far as I'm concerned, that means the internet has already passed the capabilities of blu-ray in some ways. I know it's not what you had in mind, but I've got my benchmarks of the future and you've got yours.

And considering half the people I work with already have Google fiber, we're all chomping at the bit for stuff that will really flex the muscle of this bandwidth. :-P

I want the BEST quality 1080p version of a movie to watch on my JVC sitting 9.5 feet back from a near 120" screen.

I also want the BEST audio quality for my 7.1 system

WHICH means gives me the BEST way to watch this movie today?

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post #389 of 1354 Old 05-04-2014, 06:20 PM
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I hate to say it, but calibration is pretty simple stuff. It's a two hour procedure that requires some specialized knowledge. It is a repeatable process performed as a service, kind of like being a good auto mechanic or a plumber.


I never said I was a pro calibrator, actually I'm a pro photographer who also produces music and video—however, there's a lot of overlap when it comes to the principles involved. Unfortunately, calibrating TVs doesn't pay as well as taking pictures, or else I'd consider buying some of that gear and hanging a shingle. As it stands, the knowledge is useful to me but I don't plan to make it my career.

The pro calibrators commonly take 3-5 hours (or even more) depending on the display and the number of modes/inputs. I've had some calibrations routinely take up to 4-5 hours.

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post #390 of 1354 Old 05-04-2014, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

I want the BEST quality 1080p version of a movie to watch on my JVC sitting 9.5 feet back from a near 120" screen.

I also want the BEST audio quality for my 7.1 system

WHICH means gives me the BEST way to watch this movie today?

This isn't even what's being debated by me. I'm talking about the future. You're talking about the present. Two different things.

I already noted I think Blu-ray will keep it's place at the top for a few years. Best as I can tell, we don't even have anything to really disagree on here.
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