Sony Blames Blu-ray for "Bag of Hurt" - Page 28 - AVS Forum

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TSHA222's Avatar TSHA222
07:13 AM Liked: 56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UofAZ1 View Post

My sole issue is just about cost. Sure I'd love if streaming looked as good as Bluray. But none of my HDTV's can do 24fps (so that's a non issue). I am just getting tired of buying the same movies Everytime a new format comes out. On average it costs me 100.00 for five new releases (with tax and gas factored in). Buying a code from a third party costs me on average 20.00 for five new releases. I can buy eight older releases using the library for the same 20.00

I have a huge collection of Blurays and yes they look impressive sitting in my closet collecting dust but I find with so many movies trying to pick a title gets harder and harder (gotta get permission from the ball and chain who only wants romantic comedies). So I thought why am I spending all this movie on titles that in a few short years I'll have to buy again in the new 4K format.

It's very easy, first off HDX is better than DVD then when passed through my video scaler I get a PQ that is a hair below Bluray. I just tired of spending so much money on movies collecting dust that I'll watch 2 or 3 times in my lifetime as I get bogged down with broadcast shows I like, dong stuff that doesn't involve TV or the ball and chain who wants the latest sappy love story that I could care less about. So I buy online from third parties. HDX looks better than Netflix HD so I'll settle if I can save more money. I've been currently selling my DVD collection for 2.00 a disc to friends after converting to HDX because I figure older movies you can buy at Wal Mart for 5.00 and for 2.00 I'm giving my friends a better deal and pawn shops will only give you up to a 1.00 each per movie. I think of all the money I spent per DVD and now practically giving them away. I started the same thing with Blurays (paying full price) now with an ever changing format I prefer to save my money and deal with the slightly less PQ and use that money elsewhere.

The fact that I can share each movie with my family (which I can't do with physical media) is just great.
You do know that 1080 source into a 1080 display doesn't need scaling, right? Your scaler is doing squat for your streaming signal.
NetworkTV's Avatar NetworkTV
08:02 AM Liked: 462
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TSHA222 View Post

You do know that 1080 source into a 1080 display doesn't need scaling, right? Your scaler is doing squat for your streaming signal.
It all depends on whether it's a true 1920x1080 signal or if it's something more along the lines of a 1440x1080 signal. "1080p" doesn't always mean 1080p.
TSHA222's Avatar TSHA222
08:49 AM Liked: 56
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Yes I know. My whole argument in this thread is that not all 1080 is created equal. You can't compare streaming to bluray on the merits of resolution. The important thing is compression and again a scaler won't do squat. IF otoh you have a cheaper 720p only Roku box, then an outboard scaler doing the 720 to 1080 scale is going to best most flat panel's built in scaling.
NetworkTV's Avatar NetworkTV
09:09 AM Liked: 462
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TSHA222 View Post

Yes I know. My whole argument in this thread is that not all 1080 is created equal. You can't compare streaming to bluray on the merits of resolution.
Sure you can. Not solely on resolution, but if all else were equal, the higher resolution is more likely to look better.
Quote:
The important thing is compression and again a scaler won't do squat.
Many things come into play to affect image quality, and compression is only one of those. If, as I post above, the image is 1440x1080 instead of 1920x1080, meaning either one is still considered a 1080p image, the 1440x1080p image will need to be scaled. In that case, the scaler is doing something.

Rsolution, compression, overall bit rate, compression type, codec and bandwidth all play a role in image quality. Even "compression" as a term means a lot of things, not just how many bits are used.
Quote:
IF otoh you have a cheaper 720p only a Roku box, then an outboard scaler doing the 720 to 1080 scale is going to best most flat panel's built in scaling.
That's not a truism.

Lots of TVs have excellent built in scalers that can outperform all but the best external scalers. In the home, the TV scaler is often the best option compared to external options.
HockeyoAJB's Avatar HockeyoAJB
09:16 AM Liked: 250
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Most stand-alone scalers do more than just scale.  If his is a full-blown video processor it can also help with some of the compression artifacts in the HDX videos.  It won't perform miracles, but it can get it looking a little better, which further closes the gap between it and blu-ray.

 

Still, I think that some people aren't getting the fact that not everybody is the same as them.  Not all of us would enjoy a world in which content ownership is no longer an option, where we are all forced to stream and like it.  Some may, but not all.  Streaming has its place and physical formats have theirs.  I don't see anybody here clamoring for the death of streaming.  But I see several that seem to think that their opinion is the only one that matters and that, just because they could care less about physical media, it must die and all supporters of blu-ray are some sort of neanderthal or slave to materialism.

 

I don't buy discs just for the sake of collecting them.  I buy them to watch them.  And I do just that.  With the exception of possibly 25 titles out of somewhere between 300 and 500 (I know I have just over 600 discs, but not sure how many of those are multi-disc packs with the same movie in different formats or just special features on a separate disc), I have watched all of them at least twice.  Some, I have seen dozens of times over the years.  I'd gladly rewatch a classic I already own over most of the crap they have in theaters today.


nrc2112's Avatar nrc2112
09:53 AM Liked: 39
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The OPPO 103D with the new Darbee scaler is just about the best. HDX streamed through it is as good as Bluray.
Dan Hitchman's Avatar Dan Hitchman
10:28 AM Liked: 540
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nrc2112 View Post

The OPPO 103D with the new Darbee scaler is just about the best. HDX streamed through it is as good as Bluray.

Even if it was for video, the audio on the other hand...
imagic's Avatar imagic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nrc2112 View Post

The OPPO 103D with the new Darbee scaler is just about the best. HDX streamed through it is as good as Bluray.

Even if it was for video, the audio on the other hand...

 

...sounds great and comes in up to 7.1 surround. As is the case with video quality, HDX audio is slightly less perfect than many Blu-ray audio tracks. Nevertheless, it's in the realm of "just noticeable differences." 

 


TSHA222's Avatar TSHA222
11:21 AM Liked: 56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NetworkTV View Post

Sure you can. Not solely on resolution, but if all else were equal, the higher resolution is more likely to look better.
Many things come into play to affect image quality, and compression is only one of those. If, as I post above, the image is 1440x1080 instead of 1920x1080, meaning either one is still considered a 1080p image, the 1440x1080p image will need to be scaled. In that case, the scaler is doing something.

Rsolution, compression, overall bit rate, compression type, codec and bandwidth all play a role in image quality. Even "compression" as a term means a lot of things, not just how many bits are used.
That's not a truism.

Lots of TVs have excellent built in scalers that can outperform all but the best external scalers. In the home, the TV scaler is often the best option compared to external options.
it is obvious that "higher resolution" is going to look better most of the time. DVD compared to HDX... HDX wins. Otoh, I can compress the crap out of a blu ray rip and it will be abysmal but still be high resolution. As to the scaling, how many streaming boxes output 1440 x 1080? I'm talking 1920x1080 is not going to benefit from scaling. And I didn't say all outboard scalers will outperform all tv internal scalers all the time now did I? But a Vizio scaler is not of the same quality as my Lumagen Radiance.
TSHA222's Avatar TSHA222
11:23 AM Liked: 56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nrc2112 View Post

The OPPO 103D with the new Darbee scaler is just about the best. HDX streamed through it is as good as Bluray.
Love Oppo, love Darbee ( which is NOT a scaler btw but an image enhancer) but as for looking as good as blu ray, we will agree to disagree.
NetworkTV's Avatar NetworkTV
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TSHA222 View Post

it is obvious that "higher resolution" is going to look better most of the time. DVD compared to HDX... HDX wins. Otoh, I can compress the crap out of a blu ray rip and it will be abysmal but still be high resolution.
"Compressing the crap out of Blu-ray" is hypothetical. While it does happen, that's like saying because it's possible for a Mercedes can break down, it's no better than an economy car.
Quote:
As to the scaling, how many streaming boxes output 1440 x 1080? I'm talking 1920x1080 is not going to benefit from scaling.
Streaming boxes can output anything they want. My point was, without knowing for sure if what the poster you were replying to was watching and whether it actually was a full 1920x1080p clip, you can't know if it needed scaling or not.

In fact, it's not unreasonable to assume that streaming video might employ resolution reduction to save bandwidth, which is a common practice in broadcast production.
Quote:
And I didn't say all outboard scalers will outperform all tv internal scalers all the time now did I? But a Vizio scaler is not of the same quality as my Lumagen Radiance.

You're right...you said "if otoh you have a cheaper 720p only a Roku box, then an outboard scaler doing the 720 to 1080 scale is going to best most flat panel's built in scaling." The problem is, that's not true, either. Plenty of TVs have excellent scalers in them, so I wouldn't say an outboard scaler will beat "most" of them - at least not in any noticeable way. No doubt, the addition of a proc amp to fix other issues can improve about a monitor's abilities, that's outside of the definition of scaling.

As far as Vizio, I refer you to my comparison above. Vizio isn't a premium brand, so it's not going to compare to premium specialized equipment. However, I defy most people to be able to tell the difference with the naked eye under normal viewing conditions.

There seems to be an elitist attitude that a brand like Vizio is somehow crap, despite offering excellent value and quality for an affordable price. Based on the fact that a lot of so called "good TVs" are more likely to come down the same line at Foxcon as a Vizio, Coby or other budget brands, I hesitate to say any modern LCD panel is any better than another.
_Michaelangelo_'s Avatar _Michaelangelo_
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Quote:
Originally Posted by size14d View Post

I am just glad avs exists and is open minded. Another forum I am a member of deletes these kind of posts and bans those discussing any subject not favorable to Blu-ray. It's like they are afraid members will find out Sony is losing money or reasons why 8 years after introduction DVDs outsell Blu-ray 3 to 1.
Alll forums censor, sadly. (You can't talk about breaking HDCP here, and linking to other sites is IFFY, price talk seems to be all over the place); but yeah, this site is one of the better ones.
Quote:
I think DVDs aren't going away for years. Blu-ray adoption was hampered because you had to buy a new TV. I think Sony overlooked that when they did their long range planning. They misjudged the number of people who would upgrade their TVs and how long those old CRT tvs last.

Spot on analysis! Sony was SO focused on winning one battle (Blu Ray vs HDVD) that they forgot about the war (TV) ! Typical short-term strategy vs long-term planning.

Sony got caught up in 3D fad in 2012, the 4K 2180p fad in 2013/2014, and overloading the consumer with a million different TVs that they forgot about what the customer really wanted:

Simple selection, inexpensive TVs.

Sony time and time again completely fails to understand the Paradox of Choice. http://www.ted.com/talks/barry_schwartz_on_the_paradox_of_choice

Apple has the "Good, Better, Best" marketing down to a science.
_Michaelangelo_'s Avatar _Michaelangelo_
12:47 PM Liked: 55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nrc2112 View Post

I agree, spending hard earned money on a plastic disk that will collect dust on a shelf in your house, is insane. I would pay off my debt, fund my retirement etc. I think this new generation of Millenials have it figured out. Stop being materialistic and spend money on the creation of memories. Like on a good meal or a nice trip to the ocean. Collecting junk is a waste of money and space.

/Oblg. "One man's junk is another man's treasure."

We all have hobbies. Some collect stamps, coins, movies, games (guilty), musical instruments, speakers, Audio CDs, DVDs, Blu Ray movies, etc. Why are plastic disks singled out? cool.gif

Maybe there is some deep neurological obsessive compulsive need to collect "shiny" things as we try to hold onto the [outdated] concept of physical ownership as we rush head first into digital goods. It is tempting to be cynical but yeah, the older we get the more we realize we misplaced value. IMHO the solution isn't to label those with different interests "insane", but to have a balanced healthy perspective. (I try to buy movies that I _know_ I will watch more then 3+ times.)

Your point about being more balanced is definitely a good reminder.

Reality-worst-game-ever2.jpg
kimg1453's Avatar kimg1453
12:49 PM Liked: 63
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nrc2112, your not a troll hired by the streaming companies to do the usual, which is to bash physical media, are you?

You obviously don't use a large screen and Front projector to see the obvious differences in quality. You also seem oblivious to the fact that prices will soar if streaming takes over and I can assure you, you won't have access to what you want, when you want , or how you want movies. And it will cost you each and every time you even think about watching.

I'll stick to my collection and best quality. So please get off the horse about we physical media people are so backwards and antiquated. Because that the impression I feel your giving to others.
TSHA222's Avatar TSHA222
12:51 PM Liked: 56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NetworkTV View Post

"Compressing the crap out of Blu-ray" is hypothetical. While it does happen, that's like saying because it's possible for a Mercedes can break down, it's no better than an economy car.


Streaming boxes can output anything they want. My point was, without knowing for sure if what the poster you were replying to was watching and whether it actually was a full 1920x1080p clip, you can't know if it needed scaling or not.

In fact, it's not unreasonable to assume that streaming video might employ resolution reduction to save bandwidth, which is a common practice in broadcast production.
You're right...you said "if otoh you have a cheaper 720p only a Roku box, then an outboard scaler doing the 720 to 1080 scale is going to best most flat panel's built in scaling." The problem is, that's not true, either. Plenty of TVs have excellent scalers in them, so I wouldn't say an outboard scaler will beat "most" of them - at least not in any noticeable way. No doubt, the addition of a proc amp to fix other issues can improve about a monitor's abilities, that's outside of the definition of scaling.

As far as Vizio, I refer you to my comparison above. Vizio isn't a premium brand, so it's not going to compare to premium specialized equipment. However, I defy most people to be able to tell the difference with the naked eye under normal viewing conditions.

There seems to be an elitist attitude that a brand like Vizio is somehow crap, despite offering excellent value and quality for an affordable price. Based on the fact that a lot of so called "good TVs" are more likely to come down the same line at Foxcon as a Vizio, Coby or other budget brands, I hesitate to say any modern LCD panel is any better than another.
The Mercedes comparison is kind of out there. It is not hypothetical. Follow me if you can, blu ray and VUDU start with the same master. Blu ray allocates, for argument sake, 30 gigs for the main feature and VUDU allocates 7 gigs (if that much). They are both high resolution but are not the same. I'm saying, again, that streaming services like VUDU, which are 1920 x 1080 are (1) compressed more than blu ray, to the point where banding, which is my biggest complaint, is much more obvious and (2) scaling them from 1920x1080 to 1920x1080 is actually NOT scaling. I have no issue with budget brands. I have two samsung smart TVs and even a Vizio so no elitist mentality here. My point was countering the op claim that running his HDX stream through a scaler got it even closer to blu-ray. My argument is ONCE AGAIN that scaling is not needed IF your source is 1920x1080 and your display is 1920x1080. Do you disagree with that statement? Further, my position is that streaming is, for the time being, beneficial from a convenience standpoint only and is not close to blu ray as long as the current compression is used.

EDIT: Let me add that I have no reason to believe that streaming quality will not eventually be indistinguishable. It is not so currently. And even when streaming does get to that point, I would still personally prefer to have the option of owning a physical disc. I don't hate streaming. I just don't love it.
_Michaelangelo_'s Avatar _Michaelangelo_
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniobiz1 View Post

I agree. In fact, I think that Sony basically just announced there will be no 4k disc, period. And I'm really sad for that.

At the risk of pulling a wiki ... [Citation] ?

Does anyone have a link for this?
antoniobiz1's Avatar antoniobiz1
01:24 PM Liked: 70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Michaelangelo_ View Post

At the risk of pulling a wiki ... [Citation] ?

Does anyone have a link for this?

No, there are none. It was just my personal interpretation of Sony's announcement. Sorry for the misunderstanding!
_Michaelangelo_'s Avatar _Michaelangelo_
02:19 PM Liked: 55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniobiz1 View Post

No, there are none. It was just my personal interpretation of Sony's announcement. Sorry for the misunderstanding!

Thanks for the clarification.

You wouldn't happen to have a link to the original Sony announcement by chance?

Thanks.
antoniobiz1's Avatar antoniobiz1
03:25 PM Liked: 70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Michaelangelo_ View Post

Thanks for the clarification.

You wouldn't happen to have a link to the original Sony announcement by chance?

Thanks.

It's in post 1 of this very thread, and the reason for the thread itself smile.gif
Demon665's Avatar Demon665
03:27 PM Liked: 15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniobiz1 View Post


No, there are none. It was just my personal interpretation of Sony's announcement. Sorry for the misunderstanding!

Yet, I can understand their reasoning.  By the time they have sold enough 4K sets and sold enough discs to make it a viable format hey will be pushing 8K, if not 16K - which, to, my understanding, is the greatest amount of colors the human eye can perceive.  Maybe...just maybe...they're looking towards the near future and thinking, "Do we really want to have another fire and pitchfork demonstration from the people complaining about having to buy even newer versions of our discs?"

 

On the other hand, it's Sony we're talking about, so that's probably just nonsense.


nrc2112's Avatar nrc2112
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No I am not a troll for the streaming industry. In fact I happen to be a IP architect that has worked in the Networking Area for well over 25 years. I have been watching the rise of a technology namely cloud computing and many years ago my colleagues and I realized that an all digital distribution model was imminent . I understand that this particular site is where AV enthusiasts get together to discuss the new panels, FP's, audio etc. and I respect that. However, a lot of the information you are stating is simply not true or correct.

I used to have a very impressive home theater in the past that rivaled the local cinema. But being involved in Internet Protocol routing and working as a consultant to Telcos, NASA, various federal and commercial companies, I had a vision of a large screen on the wall of each consumer that at the push of a button, they could receive and order any form of digital media.

Well that vision was in 1999 just before the Y2k concerns.

Here 15 or so years later it has come true.

Please continue to enjoy your dedication to your hobby, it's just that digital media is here to stay and the disks will be gone soon enough. Not such a bad thing as some great gems of yesterday are being enjoyed by the younger folks, at the push of a button.
chambers1517's Avatar chambers1517
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atmusky View Post

Yes hard wired and everything is working fine in my house and to my local switching station. My slow downs are specific to the time of day, I just ran a speed test now (7:30am) and as normal got 5.93Mbps. I get near the full 6Mbps all morning and then in the afternoon it starts slowing down some evenings it even drops below 1Mbps. The Frontier service people told me the equipment in a second tier switching station (one where several other switching stations go to) just doesn't have the capacity to meet demand. The same is true for many cable nodes. I would be able to use a LTE service but of course the problem with that is cost and data caps. I have some friends that have no choice but to use Verizon wireless (no wired Internet available at all), they have a 5GB data cap, so about all they can do is check their email and some light surfing.


There are a lot of us out there. I have a great theater with large front projection. Other than wireless I have no internet available. If Blu-ray went away streaming would be impossible. I pay about 10 dollars per gig with wireless. Blue-ray is much cheaper than my other option.
UofAZ1's Avatar UofAZ1
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TSHA222 I use Vudu for two of my three systems one being a Pioneer Elite 620HD which can only do component 1080i. I use my Sony PS3 and a DVDO VP30 to improve the image. An outboard scaler does so much more than scale the image. It corrects Gamma has Cue correction, sharpens each pixel and surrounding pixel (for a 1080i display is needed). It also corrects severe overscan in the display itself and a wide variety of enhancements a direct PS3 to Display could never accomplish. It's like lifting a veil on the image. It brings a depth and clarity to an image that not using a scaler can't do.

On my bedroom system I have my smart Bluray player hooked up to my DVDO Edge video scaler which has even more enhancements than the VP30 has (like Mosquito noise reduction) which is inherent in streamed material. I have that hooked up to my LG LED 50" screen and even flat screens have overscan. Mine needed a 4.5% overscan correction and by combating the overscan along with other tweaks I can safely say that using an outboard video processor can make adjustments to any input signal to make it even better. Yes even 1080p to 1080p.

I would gladly compare my streaming material (Vudu HDX) thru my Edge processor and a Blu-ray Disc player connected direct to a TV playing a movie and you would be very hard pressed to tell the difference. Take the Darbee Darblet it's a toned down video processor as compared to all that my DVDO processors can do and by having my outboard processor take any input signal and maximize each pixel to look its best than yes I can live with streaming movies.

My ISP always has a steady strong 12 Mbps with hardly any fluctuations in fact most times I test the speed I get in the upper 13 Mbps. Plenty for streamed movies.
TSHA222's Avatar TSHA222
05:00 PM Liked: 56
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Nothing wrong with "settling for" something. I'm not gonna settle but to each his own.
nrc2112's Avatar nrc2112
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Hey for Mark, are you strictly HDX now and not Apple TV? Now that your using the Fire Tv?

How about the audio and screen you use?

Will you be gaming on the Fire TV?
nrc2112's Avatar nrc2112
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Looking at HDX titles now they seem better
imagic's Avatar imagic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nrc2112 View Post

Hey for Mark, are you strictly HDX now and not Apple TV? Now that your using the Fire Tv?

How about the audio and screen you use?

Will you be gaming on the Fire TV?

 

I got rid of the Fire TV about as quickly as I obtained it—gave it to my mom. If Fire TV supported Vudu, maybe I'd still have it. I've gravitated towards my Sony BDP-S5100 for streaming stuff. I'm waiting for the next Apple TV before I buy another one.

 

Wait... is it ironic that my favorite streaming device is a Sony blu-ray player?


Aarghon's Avatar Aarghon
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Honestly....Let's just hope that Sony doesn't get systematically out of non high-profit margin sectors just for the sake of maintaining highest profitability ( Inexorable? maybe ....mad.gif )
They were always tech pioneers to me...
nrc2112's Avatar nrc2112
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Sony is concentrated on High End TV now.
hernanu's Avatar hernanu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nrc2112 View Post

No I am not a troll for the streaming industry. In fact I happen to be a IP architect that has worked in the Networking Area for well over 25 years. I have been watching the rise of a technology namely cloud computing and many years ago my colleagues and I realized that an all digital distribution model was imminent . I understand that this particular site is where AV enthusiasts get together to discuss the new panels, FP's, audio etc. and I respect that. However, a lot of the information you are stating is simply not true or correct.

I used to have a very impressive home theater in the past that rivaled the local cinema. But being involved in Internet Protocol routing and working as a consultant to Telcos, NASA, various federal and commercial companies, I had a vision of a large screen on the wall of each consumer that at the push of a button, they could receive and order any form of digital media.

Well that vision was in 1999 just before the Y2k concerns.

Here 15 or so years later it has come true.

Please continue to enjoy your dedication to your hobby, it's just that digital media is here to stay and the disks will be gone soon enough. Not such a bad thing as some great gems of yesterday are being enjoyed by the younger folks, at the push of a button.

I respect your years of work. I've also worked in network design for large distributed networks as an architect for quite a while.

Cloud computing is a useful thing, but it still suffers from the fact that you are trusting a corporate entity to manage and maintain your data. No matter what it is. Even if the different cloud implementations were capable of delivering content at the same rate for all users, that content exists at the sufferance of the company involved.

In the case where you're renting, that's not an issue. In the case where you're buying, then you are dependent not only on their ability to guard your purchase, but also on their policies and goodwill. If any of those fail, your purchase is gone.

I don't mind doing so, so long as that's understood. As an example, I have bought quite a bit of music through Amazon. They have a music cloud service where you can play your music on a PC or a cell phone. You can also download the mp3, but only for a limited amount of time. I just happened to download every song to my NAS and to my cell phone, since I play music from both.

I decided to upgrade phones, but I had kept all of my music on the regular memory. This meant my music was gone from me once the cell was upgraded. I tried to download from the cloud service, but that time was gone. Thankfully, I had a separate piece of software that could mirror my music from the NAS to the cell phone and I was back in business, but otherwise, that music was gone and all of the money I spent on it (about 4000 songs, at a dollar a piece).

I could have played my music from the Amazon cloud, but I like my own player and given 3G speeds / lack of reliability, I prefer to have my music on the phone. Memory (now it's on a memory card) is cheap.

To me, cloud computing is a useful tool. I would prefer downloading movies for the same reason I prefer downloading music. I have it at hand and have full control. My cell music player can also play FLAC, AIFF or any other format, the same as my Oppo 103D. I don't want any cloud company to tell me what format I can or can't have.

So network bandwidth may or may not be here. It is ruled by the vicissitudes of the marketplace. In countries like Japan and Korea it is plentiful and affordable (1MGb for 30 dollars), where here, due to politics, a decayed infrasctructure or venal providers, it is hamstrung. Until we have the same access to bandwidth streaming won't work for everyone and for me at least, I would require downloading it and owning it on my NAS and other devices. So I can control it and back it up as needed.

That metaphor does not exist now. So now I stream movies (Netflix, etc.) for casual viewing, have some on my NAS for convenience and watch both bluray and HD DVD for quality.

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