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post #1171 of 1354 Old 06-10-2014, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by UofAZ1 View Post

Granted this is hopefully decades away but still I won't have to think about giving away hundreds of discs on a format that is outdated and can log on anywhere and enjoy a movie I love.

I think technology will grow at a faster rate than a new disc based format will (as we've seen in the past ten years since Bluray was introduced). I figure in a couple years streaming and how popular it is will soon be the best way to watch movies or shows.

Streaming has its pluses, but long term ownership is not necessarily one of them. The chances of your current HDX titles still being available a couple decades from now is probably lower than the chances of your discs lasting that long and being able to find a working player. They will likely be two generations of digital media past HDX by then.

Could streaming quality and future internet speeds allow digital delivery to surpass what can feasibly be done with a spinning optical disc? Certainly.

Could streaming quality and future internet speeds allow digital delivery to surpass what can feasibly be done with all potential forms of physical media (including continuously improving solid state drives)? Absolutely not. Remember, the providers have to store the copy you are streaming on something. Standard HDD's are already being phased out due to the limited rotational speed not being able to provide sufficient read/write speeds for uncompressed 4K (and higher) video. If they wanted to, they could sell movies on SSD's, which are capable of read speeds well above 6 Gbps. It will be a LONG time before a significant portion of the population can get internet speeds anywhere near that. Physical media will always have the potential to be better than something streamed from the internet. The only question is whether or not the studios choose to take advantage of that potential.
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post #1172 of 1354 Old 06-10-2014, 07:15 PM - Thread Starter
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a question for the pessimists, what if everything works out? What if I end up with a huge collection of movies in the cloud, and as quality gets better my license simply lets me watch those better copies... at worst for a small upgrade fee?

What if the data/bandwidth issues are resolved for the majority of the population of the country within a decade?

What if Google, Comcast, Amazon, Walmart, and Apple make all of this work? Why is it that there is greater faith in Japanese discs than American Internet?

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post #1173 of 1354 Old 06-10-2014, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

a question for the pessimists, what if everything works out? What if I end up with a huge collection of movies in the cloud, and as quality gets better my license simply lets me watch those better copies... at worst for a small upgrade fee?

What if the data/bandwidth issues are resolved for the majority of the population of the country within a decade?

What if Google, Comcast, Amazon, Walmart, and Apple make all of this work? Why is it that there is greater faith in Japanese discs than American Internet?

That would be fantastic... and it's the way it should be. Let me ask you one question though: When's the last time a major corporation did the right thing over the long term?
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post #1174 of 1354 Old 06-10-2014, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

a question for the pessimists, what if everything works out? What if I end up with a huge collection of movies in the cloud, and as quality gets better my license simply lets me watch those better copies... at worst for a small upgrade fee?

What if the data/bandwidth issues are resolved for the majority of the population of the country within a decade?

What if Google, Comcast, Amazon, Walmart, and Apple make all of this work? Why is it that there is greater faith in Japanese discs than American Internet?

That's a lot of what if's, but obviously, if everything were to work itself out in the next decade then I think most of us would rejoice. In any case, I think the term "pessimist" is not quite accurate. I might use the term "skeptic" at worst. "Realist" is probably closer to the truth, IMHO. I would say that those who are completely against streaming (of which I am not one) are no more pessimistic about streaming than quite a few streaming supporters are about the future of physical media. What country the technology comes from isn't really a factor, IMO. I'm as patriotic as the next guy. The current potential of physical media is just well ahead of internet capabilities right now. Blu-Ray is 8 year old tech at this point. Physical media is capable of much more than what we are getting right now. To be fair, I have more faith in Japanese discs than I do in Japanese internet, and they are well ahead of the US at this point.
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post #1175 of 1354 Old 06-10-2014, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

a question for the pessimists, what if everything works out? What if I end up with a huge collection of movies in the cloud, and as quality gets better my license simply lets me watch those better copies... at worst for a small upgrade fee?

What if the data/bandwidth issues are resolved for the majority of the population of the country within a decade?

What if Google, Comcast, Amazon, Walmart, and Apple make all of this work? Why is it that there is greater faith in Japanese discs than American Internet?
Well said. The pessimism regarding the Internet bandwidth is a stale argument. Just look at the massive transformation in the last 3-4 years. My Comcast speed has gone from 15 mbit/sec to 70 mbit/sec. And they even removed the cap!

Internet service is very profitable business. They collect $50 and give you access. The same $50 for paid TV requires a ton of work in infrastructure and licensing to deliver media to us.

Over the holiday period, Kaleidescape had a special where you could get for $2, any of the top 100 Warner movies. I think I bought something like 60 of them. They arrived in pristine blu-ray quality and instantly available to watch. Blade runner came in all three versions at $70 gigabytes! All in all, it was hundreds of gigabytes but it trickled down in a few days and I had the full library. Until you have an experience like this, you can't get a first hand feeling for what is there for us in the new world.

As to Blu-ray association defining a 4K format, it is not going to happen in my opinion. Yes, they are working on it. But unlike the last go around there is no company willing to pour hundreds of millions to make it happen. The sony of 8 years ago is not the Sony of today. No one is waiting on BDA to provide 4K. The "darlings" are Netflix and such.

There is an old saying: people overestimate the impact of new technology in the short term, but underestimate it in the long term. The Internet is on the latter cycle now. I watch 1080p youtube videos before going to sleep (educational content). Could you even imagine the scenario 4 years ago? Folks would have just laughed at you.

Progress is coming guys. smile.gif

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post #1176 of 1354 Old 06-10-2014, 07:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

a question for the pessimists, what if everything works out? What if I end up with a huge collection of movies in the cloud, and as quality gets better my license simply lets me watch those better copies... at worst for a small upgrade fee?

What if the data/bandwidth issues are resolved for the majority of the population of the country within a decade?

What if Google, Comcast, Amazon, Walmart, and Apple make all of this work? Why is it that there is greater faith in Japanese discs than American Internet?

That would be fantastic... and it's the way it should be. Let me ask you one question though: When's the last time a major corporation did the right thing over the long term?

 

I've been pleased with Google for a long time now. I have no idea if/when it will become evil but for now I'm going along for the ride. That was the first cloud service I used, unless you count the one year I subscribed to AOL back in the early nineties. For over fifteen years I've run my own business using cloud-based services, it's worked out quite nicely.

 

Corporations don't "do the right thing" per se; but if a corporation is well-run, it will do what it takes to earn the money it makes.


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post #1177 of 1354 Old 06-10-2014, 07:59 PM
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

a question for the pessimists, what if everything works out? What if I end up with a huge collection of movies in the cloud, and as quality gets better my license simply lets me watch those better copies... at worst for a small upgrade fee?


What if the data/bandwidth issues are resolved for the majority of the population of the country within a decade?


What if Google, Comcast, Amazon, Walmart, and Apple make all of this work? Why is it that there is greater faith in Japanese discs than American Internet?


That would be fantastic... and it's the way it should be. Let me ask you one question though: When's the last time a major corporation did the right thing over the long term?

I've been pleased with Google for a long time now. I have no idea if/when it will become evil but for now I'm going along for the ride. That was the first cloud service I used, unless you count the one year I subscribed to AOL back in the early nineties. For over fifteen years I've run my own business using cloud-based services, it's worked out quite nicely.

Corporations don't "do the right thing" per se; but if a corporation is well-run, it will do what it takes to earn the money it makes.

Fair enough... but just you wait.wink.gif
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post #1178 of 1354 Old 06-10-2014, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

a question for the pessimists, what if everything works out? What if I end up with a huge collection of movies in the cloud, and as quality gets better my license simply lets me watch those better copies... at worst for a small upgrade fee?

What if the data/bandwidth issues are resolved for the majority of the population of the country within a decade?

What if Google, Comcast, Amazon, Walmart, and Apple make all of this work? Why is it that there is greater faith in Japanese discs than American Internet?

Like most everyone here has stated: we're being realists. Corporations are not getting any better from an ethical standpoint if you look hard at what they're doing to make those huge profits.

I also have no faith in Google... check out what they did in China or for the NSA here at home. When will they be evil? They already are.
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post #1179 of 1354 Old 06-10-2014, 08:40 PM
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I just wish everything I streamed looked as good as the BluRay ISO's I play off my NAS. Vudu HDX and Netflix SuperHD always look a little soft, and my download speeds average around 55 Mbps.
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post #1180 of 1354 Old 06-12-2014, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
a question for the pessimists, what if everything works out? What if I end up with a huge collection of movies in the cloud, and as quality gets better my license simply lets me watch those better copies... at worst for a small upgrade fee?

What if the data/bandwidth issues are resolved for the majority of the population of the country within a decade?

What if Google, Comcast, Amazon, Walmart, and Apple make all of this work? Why is it that there is greater faith in Japanese discs than American Internet?
Then we will all be happy. I like disks because streaming doesn't work for me, so I have to be able to download the digital file and plan ahead a day or so before I can watch a HDX movie. That said I have 100 movies in my UV account and expect it to grow to 150 soon as we are getting ready to convert another 50 or so Blu-ray and DVDs to UV.

My bottom line is I am still buying blu-rays but will convert them to UV for the other people on my UV account - same for them. None of us are planning on only buying a digital only copy (except if I can pic up a UV code for cheap) of a movie.

What would be interesting to know is how many people are actually buying digital only copies of movies versus those getting/using UV codes.
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post #1181 of 1354 Old 06-12-2014, 10:59 AM
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Then we will all be happy. I like disks because streaming doesn't work for me, so I have to be able to download the digital file and plan ahead a day or so before I can watch a HDX movie. That said I have 100 movies in my UV account and expect it to grow to 150 soon as we are getting ready to convert another 50 or so Blu-ray and DVDs to UV.

My bottom line is I am still buying blu-rays but will convert them to UV for the other people on my UV account - same for them. None of us are planning on only buying a digital only copy (except if I can pic up a UV code for cheap) of a movie.

What would be interesting to know is how many people are actually buying digital only copies of movies versus those getting/using UV codes.
That would be a great idea for one of Scott's new polls. "How did you acquire your library of digital copies?"

1) Purchased BD/DVD + Digital Copy combo pack and redeemed the code.

2) Purchased UV/iTunes code 2nd hand.

3) Used Disc-to-Digital service.

4) Purchased digital copy directly from the online service.

5) Other (Please specify in your reply)

Allow multiple selections and encourage people to post a reply giving the reason they chose the method(s) they did.
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post #1182 of 1354 Old 06-12-2014, 11:02 AM
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I just wish everything I streamed looked as good as the BluRay ISO's I play off my NAS. Vudu HDX and Netflix SuperHD always look a little soft, and my download speeds average around 55 Mbps.
They don't use anywhere near that speed to stream. While they do look good, I'm always amazed at how much better the BD looks. I was looking at Gravity on Vudu last night and compared it to my BD(I always get 3 bar HDX with Vudu). The BD easily looked much more detailed.

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post #1183 of 1354 Old 06-13-2014, 06:11 AM
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I don't agree with the notion that streaming is close to the quality of Blu-ray especially in motion. This is evident on a 65" display and even more evident on a 120" screen from proper seating distances, of course.

4K Blu is coming is next year.
You can see the difference on a 7" display. Compression artifacts are terrible.

I'm not optimistic for 4K Blu ever seeing the light of day.
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post #1184 of 1354 Old 06-13-2014, 06:12 AM
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I just wish everything I streamed looked as good as the BluRay ISO's I play off my NAS. Vudu HDX and Netflix SuperHD always look a little soft, and my download speeds average around 55 Mbps.
Hey Rudy, what are you streaming ISO's with?
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post #1185 of 1354 Old 06-13-2014, 06:14 AM - Thread Starter
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You can see the difference on a 7" display. Compression artifacts are terrible.

I'm not optimistic for 4K Blu ever seeing the light of day.
I'd run a contest with a $1000 prize for anyone who could tell the difference between Vudu HDX and Blu-ray on a 7-inch display.

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post #1186 of 1354 Old 06-13-2014, 06:17 AM
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I'd run a contest with a $1000 prize for anyone who could tell the difference between Vudu HDX and Blu-ray on a 7-inch display.
Sorry, wasn't referring to HDX: that is pretty good. Most people stream with Netflix, Amazon Prime and AppleTV/iOS.

How do i enter the contest BTW?
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post #1187 of 1354 Old 06-13-2014, 06:21 AM
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I'd run a contest with a $1000 prize for anyone who could tell the difference between Vudu HDX and Blu-ray on a 7-inch display.
Now you just have to move down to cell phone sizes. Having > 1080p on a 4" screen is dumb
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post #1188 of 1354 Old 06-13-2014, 06:58 AM
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Hey Rudy, what are you streaming ISO's with?
I'm using one of these...works perfectly with my ISO's:

http://www.mediaconceptusa.com/mede8er%20med600x3d.html
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post #1189 of 1354 Old 06-13-2014, 07:05 AM
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I'd run a contest with a $1000 prize for anyone who could tell the difference between Vudu HDX and Blu-ray on a 7-inch display.
Mark, you may want to qualify this bet by stipulating that the tester must be able to stream HDX at maximum quality. I watched a Vudu HDX copy of Master and Commander a few weeks ago on my iPad and I could certainly tell the difference, but I wasn't getting the highest tier of quality at all times.
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post #1190 of 1354 Old 06-13-2014, 07:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Mark, you may want to qualify this bet by stipulating that the tester must be able to stream HDX at maximum quality. I watched a Vudu HDX copy of Master and Commander a few weeks ago on my iPad and I could certainly tell the difference, but I wasn't getting the highest tier of quality at all times.
Yes it would need to be qualified. It would need to be a 7-inch tablet, Vudu HDX would have to run full speed (three bars), and you'd have to find a way to play a Blu-ray on a tablet! Or, you'd have to find a way to watch Vudu HDX on a portable Blu-ray player. Everyone has one of those, right?

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post #1191 of 1354 Old 06-13-2014, 07:32 AM
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Yes it would need to be qualified. It would need to be a 7-inch tablet, Vudu HDX would have to run full speed (three bars), and you'd have to find a way to play a Blu-ray on a tablet! Or, you'd have to find a way to watch Vudu HDX on a portable Blu-ray player. Everyone has one of those, right?
Most likely, they would have to rip the blu-ray and stream it to the tablet, since I don't know of any devices with 7" screens that have a built-in blu-ray player or an HDMI input AND the ability to stream video from Vudu. My laptop is my portable Blu-Ray player, but it doesn't qualify for this bet as it has a 17.3" Full HD Active 3D display.

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post #1192 of 1354 Old 06-13-2014, 07:54 AM
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I don't agree with the notion that streaming is close to the quality of Blu-ray especially in motion. This is evident on a 65" display and even more evident on a 120" screen from proper seating distances, of course.

4K Blu is coming is next year.
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You can see the difference on a 7" display. Compression artifacts are terrible.
First, it's not useful to refer to "streaming" as some sort of homegenous entity. Netflix and Amazon are NOT the same quality as Vudu HDX or even iTunes.

Second, this whole thread is hilarious to me. My wife and I are probably 50% iTunes and Vudu HDX rentals at this point. Why? Because we don't have much of a choice. Blu-ray movie selection is terrible in my locale. Unless I want to put myself in the poor-house buying every movie I want to watch, I have no choice but to rent streaming.

We only have one midwest movie rental chain left - Family Video. While the selection is decent, they still only carry the most popular movies on Blu-ray. All the really good independent stuff they do carry is only on DVD. That leaves me with Redbox, which is nearly worthless at this point. I used to be able to rent from Redbox once a week back in the day. Now that they carry BD, DVD, and games in a single Redbox, I'm down to about once a month.

So, the rental store is good for 2-3 BD's a month, and Redbox is good for about one. That leaves me with at least another 4-5 nights I don't have any option but to stream. Before you say it, Netflix disc rental is worthless to me. We tried it back in the HD-DVD/BD days, and the idea of having a single movie sitting there a week in advance is stupid. I don't know a week ahead of time what we're going to be in the mood to watch any more than I know what I'm going to want to eat for dinner a week in advance.

Luckily, the 50% iTunes and Vudu rentals we've been watching are damn good. Not Blu-ray certainly, but very good. Certainly not how some people are characterizing "streaming" in the this thread, like "the compression artifacts are terrible". We haven't been disappointed at all. Quality is actually very good, and I'm watching a 110-inch diagonal screen from 10-11 feet away. The biggest drawback to me isn't the compression; it's that there's no way to watch iTunes or Vudu downloads in 24p; they both output 60p, which sucks.

Still, that works fine, since we prioritize and bias the streaming toward movies where ultimate PQ is less important and story, acting, etc. are more important. We do the same with BD. If it's a mega-buck blockbuster with super-high production value, we'll watch the BD, which works because we'll be able to rent that, or if it's just the right movie, I'll buy it.

I'll just also mention that when it's -5F here, I'm not too hot on driving to the rental store, either. Streaming also works well in those instances.

So, the combo approach works well for us, and I don't see that changing. I'm not going to triple my costs to start buying movies I'll only watch once, and I don't see rental selection getting anything but worse.

I've got GAS: Gadget Acquisition Syndrome.
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post #1193 of 1354 Old 06-13-2014, 08:05 AM
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First, it's not useful to refer to "streaming" as some sort of homegenous entity. Netflix and Amazon are NOT the same quality as Vudu HDX or even iTunes.

Second, this whole thread is hilarious to me. My wife and I are probably 50% iTunes and Vudu HDX rentals at this point. Why? Because we don't have much of a choice. Blu-ray movie selection is terrible in my locale. Unless I want to put myself in the poor-house buying every movie I want to watch, I have no choice but to rent streaming.

We only have one midwest movie rental chain left - Family Video. While the selection is decent, they still only carry the most popular movies on Blu-ray. All the really good independent stuff they do carry is only on DVD. That leaves me with Redbox, which is nearly worthless at this point. I used to be able to rent from Redbox once a week back in the day. Now that they carry BD, DVD, and games in a single Redbox, I'm down to about once a month.

So, the rental store is good for 2-3 BD's a month, and Redbox is good for about one. That leaves me with at least another 4-5 nights I don't have any option but to stream. Before you say it, Netflix disc rental is worthless to me. We tried it back in the HD-DVD/BD days, and the idea of having a single movie sitting there a week in advance is stupid. I don't know a week ahead of time what we're going to be in the mood to watch any more than I know what I'm going to want to eat for dinner a week in advance.
errr... netflix. That's where I get my Blu-rays. Best thing, you make a queue, so you're never stuck with what happens to be on the shelf and you can easily get through 8-10/month for $14.99 (2 BD at home). (1 BD @ home is $9.99). Yeah, waiting 28 days after release is a pain, but I can live with it.

As for compression artifacts, I see them in every iTunes stream. look at any graduated background, it has tons of steps in it. I work with computer graphics a lot, so I see this stuff. If I asked my wife, she probably wouldn't have a clue or notice it, but that's the curse: once you know, you know

Don't get me wrong, I stream. If it's a chick flick or silly comedy, I'll stream, but anything with decent cinematography or soundtrack gets the BD disc.
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post #1194 of 1354 Old 06-13-2014, 08:07 AM
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I get my blu rays from netflix too. I think right now in my list every movie is offered in blu ray. for 10 bucks a month you can't beat it.
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post #1195 of 1354 Old 06-13-2014, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by mark_anderson_u View Post
You can see the difference on a 7" display. Compression artifacts are terrible.

I'm not optimistic for 4K Blu ever seeing the light of day.
I thought they were supposed to ratify a BD 4K standard this Summer? With the hope for the first 4K BD players appearing near the end of 2014?

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post #1196 of 1354 Old 06-13-2014, 09:45 AM
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I thought they were supposed to ratify a BD 4K standard this Summer? With the hope for the first 4K BD players appearing near the end of 2014?
Interesting. Where did you read that? I really hope so, but HDDVD was a standard
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post #1197 of 1354 Old 06-13-2014, 02:04 PM
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I'm using one of these...works perfectly with my ISO's:

http://www.mediaconceptusa.com/mede8er%20med600x3d.html
Looks nice. Shame their IR codes are not available anywhere. i would need for a URC system

Regards

Mark
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post #1198 of 1354 Old 06-13-2014, 03:28 PM
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errr... netflix. That's where I get my Blu-rays. Best thing, you make a queue, so you're never stuck with what happens to be on the shelf and you can easily get through 8-10/month for $14.99 (2 BD at home). (1 BD @ home is $9.99). Yeah, waiting 28 days after release is a pain, but I can live with it.
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I get my blu rays from netflix too. I think right now in my list every movie is offered in blu ray. for 10 bucks a month you can't beat it.
Errr… Did you guys read my post? I don't mind the delayed release; that crap exists with streaming, too. You can buy the new release for weeks before you can rent it. No biggie. But, I used Netflix back in the day - before streaming. Hell, I used Netflix back in '98 or something when it was still the traditional rent-by-mail model! I'm dating myself, but I just don't like deciding what I'm going to watch a week or two in the future. Do you guys make reservations two weeks in advance for dinner? I don't do that because chances are that night will roll around, and I'll want a steak, instead of the Italian that I made the reservation for.

I really haven't been using my Netflix streaming sub. At all. I suppose I'll turn it off and switch to the two-out and see how we like that. Maybe try to have two movies from two different genres on hand, so chances are greater we'll want to watch one we have on-hand.

SC

I've got GAS: Gadget Acquisition Syndrome.
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post #1199 of 1354 Old 06-13-2014, 03:46 PM
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Errr… Did you guys read my post? I don't mind the delayed release; that crap exists with streaming, too. You can buy the new release for weeks before you can rent it. No biggie. But, I used Netflix back in the day - before streaming. Hell, I used Netflix back in '98 or something when it was still the traditional rent-by-mail model! I'm dating myself, but I just don't like deciding what I'm going to watch a week or two in the future. Do you guys make reservations two weeks in advance for dinner? I don't do that because chances are that night will roll around, and I'll want a steak, instead of the Italian that I made the reservation for.

I really haven't been using my Netflix streaming sub. At all. I suppose I'll turn it off and switch to the two-out and see how we like that. Maybe try to have two movies from two different genres on hand, so chances are greater we'll want to watch one we have on-hand.

SC
You can typically rent movies as streaming before the disc comes out with several of the studios (which really annoys me). I know netflix has a 28-day-after-disc-release delay with many studios and some studios are trying to make that 56 days. I guess the rational is, if you want *really* want at disc release on BD, you'll buy rather than rent. I would imagine they get more revenue when rented on iTunes at $5.99 than they do from Netflix when $15.99 gets you as many as you can watch in a month

I always have a long queue. If I remember, I usually check it the day i mail a disk back in case I want to move one up. One thing I use it for a lot is BadCommedyX comes out at movies, no way I'm gonna go to movies to watch, no way I'm gonna pay $5 to stream so search and netflix and click SAVE, that way, it's in queue for later. Another use case is good movie is in theaters (hardly go anymore as HT is so much better) and I'm not gonna buy (unless i rent and it's a keeper), I save to queue and it's moved to queue on release. I don;t know if the date you add to queue (save it) has any affect on priority when there are supply issues. I doubt it as I guess it's more likely to be the date it got to no 1 in your queue. Anyway, the save function saves me having to remember to add to queue on release. It's also a good way to add movies you want to watch in future, but would probably forget about.
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post #1200 of 1354 Old 06-13-2014, 05:06 PM
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I thought they were supposed to ratify a BD 4K standard this Summer? With the hope for the first 4K BD players appearing near the end of 2014?
According to Sony Europe, the final standards (physical, compression type, etc.) for UHD Blu-Ray Disc will be finalized by the end of 2014. They expect the new discs to be unveiled at the Berlin IFA show in September, with the first movies to be available in 2015. Below are a couple of articles I found on the subject of 4K BD:

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/bda-4k-201401093581.htm
http://www.projectorreviews.com/tech...te-april-2014/
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