Sony Blames Blu-ray for "Bag of Hurt" - Page 42 - AVS Forum
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post #1231 of 1375 Old 06-18-2014, 12:29 PM
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All I have access to is ADSL at 10Mb down and 750Mb up. Streaming works fine SOME OF THE TIME. No way can I switch to internet delivery for everything. IP phone, tried it, horrible voice quality and constantly getting feedback that it was choppy at times so I still have my hard phone. Nothing better than finally carving out some time to watch a mediocre movie and it buffers. Those that have enough pipe to share with a family and still be able to stream HD quality reliably more power to you. For me streaming is a great option for those with access to big pipes, no data caps and no kids. Excellent for single guys in city center dwellings.

The family does use Amazon Prime. It is excellent for very low quality content like TV shows and watching the occasional musty dusty movie from the 80's that would not look any better at 1080p anyway. I sure hope physical media continues to be an option. At least until the delivery method is optimized for a wider audience.


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post #1232 of 1375 Old 06-18-2014, 05:26 PM
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The movie theaters stream their content from a server. At least the ones with a modern digital setup do.
Scott Wilkinsen interviewed Thomas Larsen, head projectionist at the TCL (formerly Grauman's, then Mann's) Chinese Theatre in Hollywood, CA at this Podcast: The Projectionist's Perspective with Thomas Larsen

According to Larsen, movies are delivered on hard drives, and then loaded onto the theater's server. So, at least according to this podcast, physical media is still delivered to the theaters; it's a disk instead of reels of film.

My very humble setup:
Man Cave:Vizio E500i-A1 "Smart TV" (50-in 1080p 120Hz LED/LCD, has Netflix app.), Blu-ray players (Sony BDP-S3100, old LG BD390), Roku (the original model: N1000), PC (Windows 7), Comcast Internet (25Mbps/5Mbps).
Bedroom:LG 32LV3400-UA TV (32-in 768p 60Hz LED/LCD), HD DVR (Motorola RNG200N), Xfinity Comcast cable (Digital Starter Package), DVD/VHS player.
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post #1233 of 1375 Old 06-18-2014, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark12547 View Post
Scott Wilkinsen interviewed Thomas Larsen, head projectionist at the TCL (formerly Grauman's, then Mann's) Chinese Theatre in Hollywood, CA at this Podcast: The Projectionist's Perspective with Thomas Larsen

According to Larsen, movies are delivered on hard drives, and then loaded onto the theater's server. So, at least according to this podcast, physical media is still delivered to the theaters; it's a disk instead of reels of film.
I guess I got part of it right. I knew a server was used at some point. I guess if they had the bandwidth though they could just download the encrypted movies straight to the servers. But I guess that would need to be some serious speed. Any idea what the file sizes are for the movies?

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post #1234 of 1375 Old 06-18-2014, 06:10 PM
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I guess if they had the bandwidth though they could just download the encrypted movies straight to the servers. But I guess that would need to be some serious speed. Any idea what the file sizes are for the movies?
It was mentioned in the podcast but I don't recall the size. It was a very long time since I had watched that podcast.

My very humble setup:
Man Cave:Vizio E500i-A1 "Smart TV" (50-in 1080p 120Hz LED/LCD, has Netflix app.), Blu-ray players (Sony BDP-S3100, old LG BD390), Roku (the original model: N1000), PC (Windows 7), Comcast Internet (25Mbps/5Mbps).
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post #1235 of 1375 Old 06-18-2014, 07:43 PM
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Oops.....

Streaming and buying digital content may not be wise after all.

After that date, the music in your Samsung Music library will no longer be available for download. Please be sure to download all purchased music from Samsung Hub and to use any remaining vouchers for Samsung Music before July 1, 2014. The music you download from Samsung Music is DRM-free, which means you will be able to play, store, and transfer these files even after that date.

As alternatives, we are offering Milk MusicSM and Google Play Music, two new exciting music services we think will enhance your music experience with Samsung products.

So if someone did not get this notice. They would be SOL. SAMSUNG MUSIC LIBRARY JUST POOF AND IT IS GONE!
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post #1236 of 1375 Old 06-18-2014, 08:11 PM
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Dear Samsung Music Customer,

Samsung Hub Music will no longer be available as of July 1, 2014.

After that date, the music in your Samsung Music library will no longer be available for download. Please be sure to download all purchased music from Samsung Hub and to use any remaining vouchers for Samsung Music before July 1, 2014. The music you download from Samsung Music is DRM-free, which means you will be able to play, store, and transfer these files even after that date.

As alternatives, we are offering Milk MusicSM and Google Play Music, two new exciting music services we think will enhance your music experience with Samsung products.
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post #1237 of 1375 Old 06-18-2014, 09:40 PM
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Oops.....

Streaming and buying digital content may not be wise after all.

After that date, the music in your Samsung Music library will no longer be available for download. Please be sure to download all purchased music from Samsung Hub and to use any remaining vouchers for Samsung Music before July 1, 2014. The music you download from Samsung Music is DRM-free, which means you will be able to play, store, and transfer these files even after that date.

As alternatives, we are offering Milk MusicSM and Google Play Music, two new exciting music services we think will enhance your music experience with Samsung products.

So if someone did not get this notice. They would be SOL. SAMSUNG MUSIC LIBRARY JUST POOF AND IT IS GONE!
But it's DRM free. So if someone had purchased a song they should have downloaded it anyway so they would have a local backup. If not then they have no one to blame but themselves.

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post #1238 of 1375 Old 06-18-2014, 09:55 PM
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But it's DRM free. So if someone had purchased a song they should have downloaded it anyway so they would have a local backup. If not then they have no one to blame but themselves.
That's the trick in all of this internet stuff isn't it? I don't think a lot of downloadable media is going to be DRM free (like Apple files bought from their iStore)... or may start out that way as an enticement (like Neil Young's Pono), but the lawyers will monkey up the works in time.

Do you see Hollywood allowing DRM free UHD files with lossless object surround in the wild? If a particular download site goes dark (or you cancel the service to go elsewhere), some of your collection you paid for will more than likely go dark as well. Or, let's say your local storage crashes. Will they allow you to re-download those destroyed files for free? Will some or all of them still be made available? Sony's game download service only gives you limited protection on that front, and then you're SOL. And you've already paid them for that "privilege."

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!

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post #1239 of 1375 Old 06-19-2014, 04:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
That's the trick in all of this internet stuff isn't it? I don't think a lot of downloadable media is going to be DRM free (like Apple files bought from their iStore)... or may start out that way as an enticement (like Neil Young's Pono), but the lawyers will monkey up the works in time.

Do you see Hollywood allowing DRM free UHD files with lossless object surround in the wild? If a particular download site goes dark (or you cancel the service to go elsewhere), some of your collection you paid for will more than likely go dark as well. Or, let's say your local storage crashes. Will they allow you to re-download those destroyed files for free? Will some or all of them still be made available? Sony's game download service only gives you limited protection on that front, and then you're SOL. And you've already paid them for that "privilege."
Agreed. As I've been saying, the problems are just starting with download/streaming. Thank goodness for Physical Media!
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post #1240 of 1375 Old 06-19-2014, 08:02 AM
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A few weeks ago several dozen of my movies went "missing". I'm not sure why someone took those instead of pricier things... maybe they thought I wouldn't notice. I'm very forgetful these days so they were probably counting on me forgetting all the great movies I had.

At any rate, I've been buying replacements. So far in the last couple of weeks I've bought about sixty used blu-ray discs and intend to buy many more. I haven't streamed or downloaded anything... not one bit. Why? Because I don't trust corporations. They will always cheat eventually... always.

I'll eventually transfer most of my physical media to decent RAID arrays for convenience and safe-keeping but for now I'm fine with the physical discs. Discs are far safer than any corporate cloud over which I have no control. Regarding theft of physical media: At least I have a pretty good idea who to watch out for and can install hidden surveillance video to catch and prosecute the thief. However, if I lose all my media via theft by corporation... I'm screwed. A cloud is just "vapor".
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post #1241 of 1375 Old 06-19-2014, 10:57 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by bowlopho

you would think 8 years of bluray is not a loss product. it lasted quite some time.

I know I rather stream something rather than buying/renting a BD movie because

1) it's cheaper
2) it's instant
3) the quality is good enough

Good enough? Alrighty then.
1)until you factor in all the increases in charges later down the road when they have you by the b@lls and are forced to pay higher premiums for the hosting site and/or your internet provider. Just begging for corporate greed to come into play, which it will. All for something you don't really own in the first place.

2)running down to the store to buy a bluray compared to waiting 2 hours for my movie to fully download because I don't want to have my movie interrupted while buffering.

3)1 step forward, 2 steps back all in the name of convenience. A rut people get into that bothers me because it ruins any chance for true quality.
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Mediocrity will always appeal to the masses, while excellence is most often over looked and only appreciated by a select few.

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post #1242 of 1375 Old 06-19-2014, 11:01 AM
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After 42 pages I would think its clear these are being utilized for two separate segments of the market.

The mass market prefers the ease of streaming, don't know the difference in quality and have no idea of what surround sound is.

The other section of the market likes blu rays for their better quality and sound even if they are less convenient.

Done.

They don't need to be compared to each other as they are tailored to different people. Just as a boat shouldn't be compared to a sport cars. One isn't inherently better than the other. They are different.
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post #1243 of 1375 Old 06-19-2014, 11:16 AM
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After 42 pages I would think its clear these are being utilized for two separate segments of the market.

The mass market prefers the ease of streaming, don't know the difference in quality and have no idea of what surround sound is.

The other section of the market likes blu rays for their better quality and sound even if they are less convenient.

Done.

They don't need to be compared to each other as they are tailored to different people. Just as a boat shouldn't be compared to a sport cars. One isn't inherently better than the other. They are different.
I still use both. Some content I stream and some I watch on BD. I would not want to choose between one or the other.
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post #1244 of 1375 Old 06-19-2014, 11:17 AM
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I still use both. Some content I stream and some I watch on BD. I would not want to choose between one or the other.
I still use both as well.
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post #1245 of 1375 Old 06-19-2014, 11:30 AM
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After 42 pages I would think its clear these are being utilized for two separate segments of the market.

The mass market prefers the ease of streaming, don't know the difference in quality and have no idea of what surround sound is.

The other section of the market likes blu rays for their better quality and sound even if they are less convenient.

Done.

They don't need to be compared to each other as they are tailored to different people. Just as a boat shouldn't be compared to a sport cars. One isn't inherently better than the other. They are different.
You forgot to mention control of ownership. To me that's at least as important as the difference in quality or convenience issues.
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post #1246 of 1375 Old 06-19-2014, 11:31 AM
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Very true. Thinking of that earlier, but forgot to include it in my rant. Good call.
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post #1247 of 1375 Old 06-19-2014, 11:38 AM
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After 42 pages I would think its clear these are being utilized for two separate segments of the market.

The mass market prefers the ease of streaming, don't know the difference in quality and have no idea of what surround sound is.

The other section of the market likes blu rays for their better quality and sound even if they are less convenient.

Done.

They don't need to be compared to each other as they are tailored to different people. Just as a boat shouldn't be compared to a sport cars. One isn't inherently better than the other. They are different.
Ya at this point there isn't much new to say. I use both and have a larger UV library than I do disk library (thanks to the other people on my UV account and the free movies we got at the start). Unfortunately for me because streaming rarely works (I have to download HDX from Vudu - most movies take over 1/2 day) digital is actually more of a pain than disks are to use.
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post #1248 of 1375 Old 06-20-2014, 08:18 AM
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You forgot to mention control of ownership. To me that's at least as important as the difference in quality or convenience issues.
There is also the right to resale that you give up with streaming and downloading. It is not that big of a deal for blu-ray movies because of the lower prices, but for video games it is a big deal. My nephew buys a new Xbox One game for $60 and then usually resells it for $40 a month later to get the next new game he likes. If 4K Blu-ray does happen, they maybe $30 like it costs on the Sony to own them, but at least you could resell the 4K Blu-ray if you did not like it and recoup most of your money.
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post #1249 of 1375 Old 06-20-2014, 09:15 AM
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This thread became another pitiful "Streaming vs Blu-Ray" debate, in the face that next gen blu-ray is inevitable.
IMO, Sony's "bag of hurt" is because of easy piracy because the internet speed has grew tremendously in the past few years, Nothing more nothing less.

To me, high frame rate is more important than 4k resolution.
Much of the temporal resolution of the captured moving object is lost due to low frame rate of cinema (24 fps) and becomes a blurry mess.
The industry is stuck with the crippled 19th century 24 fps, which limits the perceived resolution of a captured moving object.
Isn't it what we try to achieve with 4k, better resolution?
24fps is also a big culprit of eye-tracking motion blur because of the distance between the captured object between two frames (do a google search is you don't know what it is).

Well IMO, 4K in 24fps is utterly pointless and a marketing gimmick, UNLESS its combined with HFR.
Even 1080p is well beyond adequate with HFR.
Heck, 99.9999% of all the projected films in cinema are mastered in 2K (2048 x 858 for 2.39:1).

Here is a sample of 1080p60 (45MB): Japanese Fox Dog Panning.
I can see a huge progression in cinema realism if HFR is adapted instead of the dreadful 24fps we have now.

As you can see, IMO the biggest improvement in the next gen of cinema and home video should be HFR, more so than resolution.
I have to repeat this again: 4K is pointless without HFR, without HFR its just a gimmick for motion picture (for images is another story).

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post #1250 of 1375 Old 06-20-2014, 09:42 AM
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But it's DRM free. So if someone had purchased a song they should have downloaded it anyway so they would have a local backup. If not then they have no one to blame but themselves.
That's all well and good, but to hear Apple and other folks tell it, you don't need local storage on your device. After all, that's what the cloud is for, right? I'm meeting far more people all the time who only have a smart phone for a computer - and every piece of media is streamed from whatever cloud based service they bought it from. They don't store anything on their device aside from apps.

It's only getting worse, too, as people upgrade their phones more often than ever, meaning they don't want to store anything locally. That would mean transferring all that stuff to the new phone and people don't want the hassle.

The thing is, isn't the crux of the issue that we're depending upon these companies to not bail on these services and leave us hanging? Isn't this what guys like me keep warning people about, but keep getting told big companies aren't going anywhere?

Make no mistake: Even a company like Amazon will die at some point. Even Jeff knows that. The evolution of business dictates that even the largest and most dominant companies will eventually be replaced by some other company that comes along and wins all the customers.

The only hope for any company is to try to be flexible enough to hold off that point as long as possible. At some point, every company fails to see "it" coming.

The thing is, when that time comes, those big companies start needing to cut costs to slow the bleeding. After laying off a few thousand employees, the next step is to drop support for products that have already been sold or to start charging to continue that support.
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post #1251 of 1375 Old 06-20-2014, 10:34 AM
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Here's ONE plus for cloud storage... and I ONLY advocate that for BACKUP. I recently gave about three dozen DVDs to a neighbor with four young kids. I did so because I've either replaced DVDs with BRD or bought movies that came with both formats. The young ones have already destroyed several of the discs I gave away. It's no loss to me but the father had to ban the kids from ever touching the movies. This guy has no home computer... just a smart phone so he has no way to backup his discs. But the point is, had he backed them up somehow then he would still have good copies. Personally though, I'd rather backup to a RAID array and/or BRD backup copies then only play the copies and safely file away the original discs.
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post #1252 of 1375 Old 06-20-2014, 10:59 AM
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That's all well and good, but to hear Apple and other folks tell it, you don't need local storage on your device. After all, that's what the cloud is for, right? I'm meeting far more people all the time who only have a smart phone for a computer - and every piece of media is streamed from whatever cloud based service they bought it from. They don't store anything on their device aside from apps.

It's only getting worse, too, as people upgrade their phones more often than ever, meaning they don't want to store anything locally. That would mean transferring all that stuff to the new phone and people don't want the hassle.

The thing is, isn't the crux of the issue that we're depending upon these companies to not bail on these services and leave us hanging? Isn't this what guys like me keep warning people about, but keep getting told big companies aren't going anywhere?

Make no mistake: Even a company like Amazon will die at some point. Even Jeff knows that. The evolution of business dictates that even the largest and most dominant companies will eventually be replaced by some other company that comes along and wins all the customers.

The only hope for any company is to try to be flexible enough to hold off that point as long as possible. At some point, every company fails to see "it" coming.

The thing is, when that time comes, those big companies start needing to cut costs to slow the bleeding. After laying off a few thousand employees, the next step is to drop support for products that have already been sold or to start charging to continue that support.
i don't store any of my music locally on my phone or tablets. But I do download a copy of anything I purchase and store it in a couple of locations for a backup. It's much easier to stream it. Plus there is no way I could come close to having the storage needed to have a local copy for all my music on my cell phone and tablets.

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post #1253 of 1375 Old 06-20-2014, 10:16 PM
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i don't store any of my music locally on my phone or tablets. But I do download a copy of anything I purchase and store it in a couple of locations for a backup. It's much easier to stream it. Plus there is no way I could come close to having the storage needed to have a local copy for all my music on my cell phone and tablets.
There was a problem with a cc when I renewed subscription to HULU PLUS on APPLE TV. I could not access any of my content until this problem was fixed.

I was a strong advocate for digital as many of my posts state, never again!

APPLE CAN AND WILL BLOCK YOU FROM YOUR PURCHASES.

You do not own jack. From now on I will only rent and not from APPLE.

Bruce Willis has amassed a huge collection of music from ITUNES and wanted to will it to his daughters, guess what, he cannot.
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post #1254 of 1375 Old 06-21-2014, 05:18 AM
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There was a problem with a cc when I renewed subscription to HULU PLUS on APPLE TV. I could not access any of my content until this problem was fixed.

I was a strong advocate for digital as many of my posts state, never again!

APPLE CAN AND WILL BLOCK YOU FROM YOUR PURCHASES.

You do not own jack. From now on I will only rent and not from APPLE.

Bruce Willis has amassed a huge collection of music from ITUNES and wanted to will it to his daughters, guess what, he cannot.
That's bull. If you can will physical stuff it should be no different with digital.
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post #1255 of 1375 Old 06-21-2014, 05:34 AM
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Talking

nrc2112,

Welcome back to our ancient world of Physical Media. Life is grand!
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post #1256 of 1375 Old 06-21-2014, 06:00 AM
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Sure, we (on this forum) want the absolute best in sight & sound, but the general public being clueless, follows Sony blindly. I predicted Sony would monkey this up after the great war. More choices are always better, IMO. They always want to be on top, then find a way to frak things up later. I for one, will never trust them.

"I knew you'd say that"...*BLAM!*
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post #1257 of 1375 Old 06-21-2014, 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted by James Parsons View Post
I learned the hard way that streaming content providers can and will happily cut you off from your entire collection of purchased content...

The only safe way to protect your purchased high-def content is Blu-ray.
Sorry I haven't followed this whole thread, but are there any [legal, not pirated] downloading services where you can BUY content free-and-clear and then do with it as you want (e.g. keep forever on HDD or burn to BD-R)?

Although I can't this early a.m. cite an example OTTOMH it seems to me that there are increasing numbers of programs available via "streaming" that are not available in BD format.
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post #1258 of 1375 Old 06-21-2014, 07:33 AM
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Here is another example of how a digital only world is bad for the consumer. Higher prices.

http://kotaku.com/playstation-now-pr...ane-1594025919
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post #1259 of 1375 Old 06-21-2014, 07:38 AM
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That's bull. If you can will physical stuff it should be no different with digital.
Before you say bull read this.

Bruce Willis loves battles, and fights, and blowing crap up while trying to escape from bad guys. Bruce Willis ain’t afraid of no one, even Apple. And so when Bruce Willis heard that he can’t leave his massive iTunes music library to someone in his will, he decided he wants to fight Apple, in the courtroom.

Look it up for yourself.
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post #1260 of 1375 Old 06-21-2014, 09:43 AM
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Before you say bull read this.

Bruce Willis loves battles, and fights, and blowing crap up while trying to escape from bad guys. Bruce Willis ain’t afraid of no one, even Apple. And so when Bruce Willis heard that he can’t leave his massive iTunes music library to someone in his will, he decided he wants to fight Apple, in the courtroom.

Look it up for yourself.
It turned out to be a false rumor. However, some articles, like in Forbes, did use it to spotlight the fact that you buy all these books, songs, videos, or games in the cloud and you DO NOT OWN A THING. You and you alone bought a limited use license and yet these prices can be as much or more than buying the physical version. Once a media service goes dark, for instance, you're SOL.

So, in that light... you really don't want an internet only solution. These businesses will frak you over big time. Everyone better watch out. They're already doing it.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!

Last edited by Dan Hitchman; 06-21-2014 at 09:48 AM.
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