Sony Blames Blu-ray for "Bag of Hurt" - Page 46 - AVS Forum
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post #1351 of 1481 Old 07-07-2014, 06:15 PM
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While the marketing guys are all busy blatantly hijacking 4K to mean horizontal resolution instead of the de facto standard vertical 2160p resolution, like 1080p, to artificially inflate specs to sell more TV's, us gamers are playing around with "8K horz" ...

http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/18...-in-the-future

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post #1352 of 1481 Old 07-07-2014, 06:17 PM
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Now, when I play my Blu-ray on my turntable, which side gets the needle?
/Oblg. "Get off my LAN" grumpy old computer guy.
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post #1353 of 1481 Old 07-08-2014, 09:53 AM
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I never had any issues playing my BD of The Sound of Music. Whether I played the disc or the BD ISO rip it played fine.

I also had no issues with my LotR Triolgy BDs. I have no idea why you had those issues but that is not the norm. What kind of player were you using? Maybe that was the issue?

Unlike for DVDs, there is no BD player included with Windows. I tried using VLC Player, but that would not work. Now VLC has some BD support if you play around with it and have the right keys. But the keys also change. I recall getting VLC to work after some messing around with a rented BD (maybe Star Trek), but it would not then work with Sound Of Music and I stopped messing around with it.

In order to play BDs, you need a player that can handle the DRM, and that typically means paying for a player, or messing around with a free player getting it configured (and keeping keys up to date). Or you can buy/find software to hack the DRM and make a non-DRM copy. Maybe that is what you are doing, since you mention ripping a BD? The bottom line is that playing a BD is not simple like playing a DVD, and that is due to the DRM schemes. The web is full of people messing around trying to play BDs in their PCs and encountering various problems, so it is clearly an issue compared to the simplicity of playing a DVD.

For my part, if Sony et al is going to make it difficult to play BDs, not to mention the inconvenient of optical disks in this day and age, I won't use BDs. For the same reason, when I built a media PC for my parents, I didn't bother installing a BD player. I didn't want them calling me not able to play rented BDs. They have been fine with DVDs. In my opinion, DRM is one reason BD has problems for Sony. Make things more difficult on the consumer, and the consumer goes elsewhere or doesn't bother with your product.
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post #1354 of 1481 Old 07-08-2014, 10:43 AM
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The ripped BD ISOs have been stripped of encryption. But I know the Nero BD player will play a BD, with menus, with the original Blu-ray Disc and without AnyDVD HD running in the background.

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post #1355 of 1481 Old 09-05-2014, 04:52 PM
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Just for fun I thought I would post in this old thread again. Here is a Cnet article about 4k Blu-ray. Still on track to be here by next fall - article has allot of good info:

http://www.cnet.com/news/4k-blu-ray-...tag=CAD090e536
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post #1356 of 1481 Old 09-05-2014, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by atmusky View Post
Just for fun I thought I would post in this old thread again. Here is a Cnet article about 4k Blu-ray. Still on track to be here by next fall - article has allot of good info:

http://www.cnet.com/news/4k-blu-ray-...tag=CAD090e536
Next Fall?!?!

I thought they used to be shooting for the end of 2014?

More and more people are already shifting toward streaming UHD. By the time a BD UHD standard comes out it will be half dead.

And then it says
Quote:
....The new format works on existing Blu-ray discs with 50GB capacity.....The roadmap says we have the capability to do that -- to increment to 66GB or maybe 100GB. those things are under study," Martin said....
SO it sounds like even the larger capacity 100GB discs are not even guaranteed to happen.

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post #1357 of 1481 Old 09-05-2014, 08:48 PM
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There's a bit of a tech-leap about every 10 years; I'd be surprised if 4K BD shows up at all next year:


Compact Disc audio (1986)

ATSC TV/ 480p DVD (1996)

Hi-def disc BD/HD DVD (2006)

4K BD disc/UHD OTA (2016?)

"I knew you'd say that"...*BLAM!*
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post #1358 of 1481 Old 09-05-2014, 09:19 PM
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Next Fall?!?! More and more people are already shifting toward streaming UHD. By the time a BD UHD standard comes out it will be half dead.
Rofl, streaming cannot even do quality 1080p and quality UHD is out of the question. Maybe you are thinking of Sony's download service but even then those gigantic downloads will destroy any caps so you will have to buy a premium ISP.
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post #1359 of 1481 Old 09-05-2014, 09:24 PM
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Next Fall?!?!

I thought they used to be shooting for the end of 2014?

More and more people are already shifting toward streaming UHD. By the time a BD UHD standard comes out it will be half dead.

And then it says

SO it sounds like even the larger capacity 100GB discs are not even guaranteed to happen.
I was wondering whether or not to wait for a receiver with HDCP 2.2 compatibility. With the possibility of movies before the future not being remastered in 4K, as well as the majority of 4K titles being released on 50GB discs, I am not holding my breath and changing my audio/video home theater life for 4K. As someone whose collection consists primarily of horror movies, I'm not a fan of all the fright flicks from 2000 to the present. I like five or ten. Also, unless they give up bonus materials, putting 4K titles on 50GB would more than likely be half the bitrate per pixel of 1080p editions. More pixels with lower quality? Wouldn't you be better off upscaling a high-quality 1080p Blu-ray? Unless they remaster movies from the past to the present on 100GB Blu-ray discs, I'll pass on this one. Even if they should decide to do so, it's going to take several years. In fact, Warner Bros.'s 1080p Blu-ray editions of "The Exorcist" series is yet to be released at the end of this month. My point is that there are still a few things I have on DVD I'm waiting for 1080p Blu-ray editions of, and here we are talking about upgrading our titles once again? I just got a Pioneer Elite BDP-52FD Blu-ray player with HDMI video output from 480i-1080p and PQLS bitstream. I am waiting for my Pioneer Elite SC-81 receiver with Class D3 amps, and jitter-tolerant, DSD-to-analog-capable, ESS Sabre Premier ES9006 DACs and PQLS bitstream to arrive. This major system upgrade is good enough to hold me over until 4K from past to future on 100GB becomes a reality. Considering how long it's taking for certain titles to make it to 1080p Blu-ray, I know it's going to be forever before 4K from yesterday's movies to tomorrow's movies on 100GB Blu-ray becomes a reality. And if it doesn't become a reality, I have a feeling I'll be good for life with this most recent system upgrade.

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post #1360 of 1481 Old 09-05-2014, 11:43 PM
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While I the idea of this pretty cool, as has been pointed out 1080p hasn't even been adopted fully what are the chances of 4k+ becoming a widely used standard anytime soon??????


They have the capability to do this, they have for years. But with there really no industry support for content what is the point to get one of these anytime soon...You might very soon be able to buy one of these UHDs but with no native content likely in the foreseeable future, what is the point???????

And streaming UHD, what are you smoking? You would hit your gb limit before you could get one movie downloaded......YOu would have to have a Terabit limit to even consider trying to download content for this thing

So you could say, I have a really cool tv but nothing to watch on it,,,,,LOL.....For what these things will cost I am thinking this is bad very expensive joke being played on us all.......
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post #1361 of 1481 Old 09-06-2014, 12:14 AM
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I'm late to the party.

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post #1362 of 1481 Old 09-07-2014, 08:53 AM
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So you could say, I have a really cool tv but nothing to watch on it,,,,,LOL.....For what these things will cost I am thinking this is bad very expensive joke being played on us all.......
With 4K, my "upgradeitis" will be cured at last (at least until some interactive Star Trek hologram system comes out in 20 years). 8K and 16K TV I won't bother with..

"I knew you'd say that"...*BLAM!*
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post #1363 of 1481 Old 09-07-2014, 03:14 PM
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Yes, 8K in Japan.

And 16K is next.
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post #1364 of 1481 Old 09-16-2014, 03:13 AM
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And streaming UHD, what are you smoking? You would hit your gb limit before you could get one movie downloaded......YOu would have to have a Terabit limit to even consider trying to download content for this thing.
I'm sorry to hear you've got one of the ISPs with data caps.

Bandwidth keeps getting cheaper. 4K video requires 25 Mbps according to Netflix. Verizon FiOS is now making 25/25 Mbps its official minimum for new customers.

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post #1365 of 1481 Old 09-17-2014, 10:36 AM
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Streaming media is where everything is going. I just dont feel like the quality is there. Kinda like CDs and mp3 files.
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post #1366 of 1481 Old 09-18-2014, 03:20 AM
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Streaming media is where everything is going. I just dont feel like the quality is there. Kinda like CDs and mp3 files.
According to Hydrogenaudio: "MP3-encoded files are generally considered artifact-free at bitrates at/above 192kbps." Of course, if you disagree, you can always participate in a blind ABX listening test.

As for streaming video, the movie studios will give you SD over HD any chance they can get. Any Blu-ray disc with UV is only giving you SD UltraViolet rights.

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"Sony has forecast a net loss of $2.15 billion for the current fiscal year, nearly five times its original estimate of $488 million (JPY50 billion ) through March of 2015. The company blamed the drastic downturn on poor smartphone sales and said that it will take a $1.76 billion (JPY180 billion) impairment charge against the phones division in the second quarter."




http://variety.com/2014/biz/news/son...ar-1201307413/

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post #1368 of 1481 Old 09-18-2014, 05:23 PM
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"Sony has forecast a net loss of $2.15 billion for the current fiscal year, nearly five times its original estimate of $488 million (JPY50 billion ) through March of 2015. The company blamed the drastic downturn on poor smartphone sales and said that it will take a $1.76 billion (JPY180 billion) impairment charge against the phones division in the second quarter."




http://variety.com/2014/biz/news/son...ar-1201307413/

It doesnt help that their tv sales have taken a hit as well yet again. They are losing money and they are still hanging on to the hope that 4K will be the difference maker. It hasnt been a difference maker and wont be.
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post #1369 of 1481 Old 09-18-2014, 05:33 PM
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According to Hydrogenaudio: "MP3-encoded files are generally considered artifact-free at bitrates at/above 192kbps." Of course, if you disagree, you can always participate in a blind ABX listening test.

As for streaming video, the movie studios will give you SD over HD any chance they can get. Any Blu-ray disc with UV is only giving you SD UltraViolet rights.
What do you mean? EVery UV code I enter from a BD gets me an HDX version on Vudu.

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post #1370 of 1481 Old 09-20-2014, 10:54 PM
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What do you mean? EVery UV code I enter from a BD gets me an HDX version on Vudu.
That's Vudu-specific. Don't confuse your Vudu HDX rights with your UltraViolet rights. Try linking other services, such as Target Ticket, M Go, or CinemaNow, to your UV account. They will likely be standard definition. Even when you buy HDX movies directly from Vudu, you are only getting standard definition UltraViolet rights. I learned that the hard way when I signed up for Target Ticket. All the movies that were HDX on Vudu were only SD on Target Ticket. When I asked why, I was told that I only had SD UV rights.

As a general rule, if a Blu-ray says "UltraViolet" or "Digital UltraViolet," it will give you standard definition UltraViolet rights. If it says "Digital HD UltraViolet," only then will you get high definition UltraViolet rights.

I could be wrong on this. The whole UltraViolet system avoids mentioning what playback quality you are entitled to with UV rights, except when it's clearly HD (i.e. Digital HD UltraViolet). My personal experience was that when I took my HDX movies redeemed at Vudu, and linked Target Ticket to my UV library, Target Ticket recognized me as having standard definition UV rights for all my movies.

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post #1371 of 1481 Old 09-20-2014, 11:15 PM
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That's Vudu-specific. Don't confuse your Vudu HDX rights with your UltraViolet rights. Try linking other services, such as Target Ticket, M Go, or CinemaNow, to your UV account. They will likely be standard definition. Even when you buy HDX movies directly from Vudu, you are only getting standard definition UltraViolet rights. I learned that the hard way when I signed up for Target Ticket. All the movies that were HDX on Vudu were only SD on Target Ticket. When I asked why, I was told that I only had SD UV rights.

As a general rule, if a Blu-ray says "UltraViolet" or "Digital UltraViolet," it will give you standard definition UltraViolet rights. If it says "Digital HD UltraViolet," only then will you get high definition UltraViolet rights.

I could be wrong on this. The whole UltraViolet system avoids mentioning what playback quality you are entitled to with UV rights, except when it's clearly HD (i.e. Digital HD UltraViolet). My personal experience was that when I took my HDX movies redeemed at Vudu, and linked Target Ticket to my UV library, Target Ticket recognized me as having standard definition UV rights for all my movies.

The only place I would ever watch any of my digital content is from Vudu. If they give me 1080P HDX then I don't care what Target or someone else will have. Since I won't be watching any content through them. The digital license will be just as long or short, depending on how you look at it. But why would I want to watch content from a streaming service that only gives me SD? I'll watch it from Vudu which gives it to me in 1080P.

EDIT: The only other UV service I ever signed up for was Flixter. I just checked several of my UV titles there. They play back in HD from them. Although I don't know if it's only 720P or if it's 1080P like Vudu, but I have the option to play back in SD or HD. SO it sounds like Target might not have access to the HD content or something.

EDIT: Although I just tried a couple more and those only had SD options. I really don't see the issue. Vudu gives them to me with three choices. HDX which is 1080P. Or HD which is 720P. Or SD which is 480. If the other services don't give me those same options then that is more reason never to use them. Vudu seems to be the best choice. I've been using them for just about seven years now and I see no reason to stop.

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post #1372 of 1481 Old 09-20-2014, 11:45 PM
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I'm sorry to hear you've got one of the ISPs with data caps.

Bandwidth keeps getting cheaper. 4K video requires 25 Mbps according to Netflix. Verizon FiOS is now making 25/25 Mbps its official minimum for new customers.

LIKE THATS REALITY for the majority of folks... if download is the mainstay of this tech it will never work.

We cant even get good quality BR quality streaming , let alone no hi res audio at all.
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post #1373 of 1481 Old 09-21-2014, 06:32 AM
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LIKE THATS REALITY for the majority of folks... if download is the mainstay of this tech it will never work.

We cant even get good quality BR quality streaming , let alone no hi res audio at all.
The majority of people aren't buying 4K TVs in 2014. The people with budgets for 4K TVs probably also have the budgets for faster broadband.

That said, depending on who you believe, few Americans may have the bandwidth for streaming even HD video. Ookla says the average U.S. speed is 29.9 Mbps. Akamai says the average U.S. speed is 10 Mbps. Netflix says the average U.S. video streaming speed is 2.57 Mbps.
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post #1374 of 1481 Old 09-21-2014, 06:46 AM
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For Netflix that is the average speed streaming Netflix content for their users. And since SuperHD streams are only around 5.8 Mb/s, their rates are not going to be high to begin with.

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post #1375 of 1481 Old 09-21-2014, 02:41 PM
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For Netflix that is the average speed streaming Netflix content for their users. And since SuperHD streams are only around 5.8 Mb/s, their rates are not going to be high to begin with.
Good catch.

I think the Ookla speed rating has a selection bias towards more sophisticated internet users, since people have to intentionally seek out Ookla's Internet Speed Test.

On the other hand, Akamai's stats may be skewed low:
Quote:
Speed tests check the collection of a single file. Akamai measures the downloads of all content, including parallel requests. The average web page, he said, requires 90 requests for content. Much of these are small files that won't reach maximum throughput rates. That alone could be enough to suggest the discrepancy

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post #1376 of 1481 Old 09-23-2014, 08:02 AM
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Sony Blames Blu-ray for "Bag of Hurt"? Maybe they should be blameing themselves for how their product has gone down hill over the last few years. The X900A and W900A were their only good tv's of 2013 and they took a big step back with their tv's in 2014 with design and innovation going out the door with the so called cost saving measures they implemented. They are getting their tails kicked by Samsung, LG and Vizio and its not hard to see why.
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post #1377 of 1481 Old 09-23-2014, 08:05 AM
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It doesnt help that their tv sales have taken a hit as well yet again. They are losing money and they are still hanging on to the hope that 4K will be the difference maker. It hasnt been a difference maker and wont be.
I have to agree I don't think 4K will be a huge difference maker. I still wonder if we will see another BOOM to the industry like HDTV was ever again.
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post #1378 of 1481 Old 09-23-2014, 08:15 AM
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I have to agree I don't think 4K will be a huge difference maker. I still wonder if we will see another BOOM to the industry like HDTV was ever again.

To be honest that all depends on the general consumer who right now could care less about 4K tv or 4K Blu ray and the other things all of us love talking about here on the forums. They just want their cheap 55inch tv's they pick up from Wallymart and their dvd's they get in the bargin bins. That dont make them bad but they just dont care about the things we do when it comes to quality ect. Will we ever see another BOOM to the industry like HDTV was? In my personal opinion no because of what I said above. Also dont forget we now have a society that likes its Ipads, Ipods, Iphones and the list goes on.
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post #1379 of 1481 Old 09-23-2014, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by steve1971 View Post
To be honest that all depends on the general consumer who right now could care less about 4K tv or 4K Blu ray and the other things all of us love talking about here on the forums. They just want their cheap 55inch tv's they pick up from Wallymart and their dvd's they get in the bargin bins. That dont make them bad but they just dont care about the things we do when it comes to quality ect. Will we ever see another BOOM to the industry like HDTV was? In my personal opinion no because of what I said above. Also dont forget we now have a society that likes its Ipads, Ipods, Iphones and the list goes on.
Truth hurts but you're right. I just have to hope there is at least enough support to continue to push the industry to deliver better and better experience's.
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post #1380 of 1481 Old 09-23-2014, 10:09 AM
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Sony Blames Blu-ray for "Bag of Hurt"? Maybe they should be blameing themselves for how their product has gone down hill over the last few years. The X900A and W900A were their only good tv's of 2013 and they took a big step back with their tv's in 2014 with design and innovation going out the door with the so called cost saving measures they implemented. They are getting their tails kicked by Samsung, LG and Vizio and its not hard to see why.
The only 2014 sets that are arguably worse than the 2013 models are the W950B and the 79" version of the X900B, which uses an IPS panel, sacrificing on-axis black level and contrast for "improved" off-axis performance. All other models give equal or better performance than the equivalent 2013 model. The X950B is the absolute best LED/LCD TV you can buy right now.

Innovation isn't their problem either, unless you expect them to be miles ahead of every other TV manufacturer (like they used to be in the 90's and early 2000's) instead of just slightly ahead of them. Other than not having a consumer level OLED display for sale, what innovative feature do other TV manufacturers have that Sony does not? Curve? Samsung's One Connect box? LG's WebOS? Sharp's Quattron (which isn't even used in their 4K sets)?

Outsourcing of components has certainly made it that much harder to hold a performance advantage over their competition but, in today's market, there isn't really an alternative. Japanese plants can't manufacture goods as cheaply as South Korean and Chinese plants can. So, unless they outsource, they can't compete when it comes to the cost of producing TV's. And, if they can't compete on cost, then they certainly can't compete on price in a market where profit margins are already razor thin. For years, Sony banked on the idea that people would be willing to pay a premium for quality. And, for years, that worked. But then display tech hit a bit of a plateau. Both plasma and LCD have been mature tech for quite some time with only very modest improvements made in the last 5 years. New display techs (OLED, Quantom Dot, laser, etc.) are still very expensive to make. This narrowed the playing field when it came to overall performance between various manufacturers. Combine that with the fact that most consumers think a $300-$500 LCD TV is "good enough" and it becomes obvious that any TV manufacturer that can't make "decent" TV's for dirt cheap prices is in trouble. If Sony can really be blamed for its struggling TV business, that blame should fall on their marketing department (who, outside of the World Cup, have done very little to advertise their products) and the corporate planning and sales projections, which were far too optimistic for too long. They probably should have gotten out of the low-mid tier TV manufacturing business years ago and focused that capital on either new display technology for premium displays or something else entirely.

Getting back to the original topic, I think you are taking the title of this thread too literally. First off, Sony never used the phrase "bag of hurt". Supposedly, that was something Steve Jobs said in regards to putting blu-ray drives in Mac computers. Secondly, Sony wasn't directly blaming blu-ray for its losses. It was blaming a decline of total physical media sales (to include both DVD and Blu-Ray) for its inability to meet projected profit margins. There are several ways to look at this. One, you could blame rapid decline of DVD sales. Two, you could blame slow growth of Blu-Ray sales. Three, you could blame the folks who failed to realize the potential of digital delivery of content and what that would mean to the sales of physical media. Had they done so, they might have been able to find ways to reduce production costs (since their production capabilities exceed demand by a large margin), thereby maintaining the desired profit margin in the face of declining market share.
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