Sony Blames Blu-ray for "Bag of Hurt" - Page 50 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1471 of 1495 Old 12-22-2014, 12:11 AM
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Are you also a big fan of Seth Rogen? ...The Canadian director/actor/writer/producer of 'The Interview'.
...Produced/distributed by Sony Pictures (Columbia studios).

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post #1472 of 1495 Old 12-22-2014, 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
The only things you are missing in the consumer 1080p version are less compression, 12 bit video depth, and a wider color gamut (DCI-P3). Those improvements, in and of themselves, can make a world of difference beyond resolution.
Properly implemented blu-ray format is impressive nonetheless.

Dithering can make 8bit look like 12bit or more which is implemented in software like madVR maybe even in hardware players.
Compression is not an issue with the bitrate that bluray is capable of, it is fully capable of retaining the finest detail even film grain, almost nothing is visually lost.
Gamut and framerate are the only aspect that current gen displays are lacking in.
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post #1473 of 1495 Old 12-22-2014, 12:33 AM
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Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
Properly implemented blu-ray format is impressive nonetheless.

Dithering can make 8bit look like 12bit or more which is implemented in software like madVR maybe even in hardware players.
Compression is not an issue with the bitrate that bluray is capable of, it is fully capable of retaining the finest detail even film grain, almost nothing is visually lost.
Gamut and framerate are the only aspect that current gen displays are lacking in.
Dithering only gets you so far in retaining the original's wider dynamic range. And you still get nasty 8 bit video banding artifacts. Moving to 10 bit will help quite a bit, and is actually easier to compress.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #1474 of 1495 Old 12-22-2014, 01:20 AM
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Dithering only gets you so far in retaining the original's wider dynamic range. And you still get nasty 8 bit video banding artifacts. Moving to 10 bit will help quite a bit, and is actually easier to compress.
Wrong.

I said "properly implemented" which means the processed high bit depth footage from the camera is dithered down to 8bit with absolutely no visible banding.
Only then, properly compressed with H.264 which retains the invisible dithering noise aka retaining the smoothness you would see from the original camera footage.

A bad H.264 compression like you would see on a 1GB internet download, would definitely destroy the dithering noise and will leave you with pure 8bit banding on a smooth scene.
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post #1475 of 1495 Old 12-22-2014, 01:31 AM
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Wrong.

I said "properly implemented" which means the processed high bit depth footage from the camera is dithered down to 8bit with absolutely no visible banding.
Only then, properly compressed with H.264 which retains the invisible dithering noise aka retaining the smoothness you would see from the original camera footage.

A bad H.264 compression like you would see on a 1GB internet download, would definitely destroy the dithering noise and will leave you with pure 8bit banding on a smooth scene.
Then just about every Blu-ray has improperly compressed 8 bit video. Dithering is not a panacea. The closer to the original master you can get, the better. 8 bit isn't the answer.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #1476 of 1495 Old 12-22-2014, 02:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
Then just about every Blu-ray has improperly compressed 8 bit video. Dithering is not a panacea. The closer to the original master you can get, the better. 8 bit isn't the answer.
Dithering is a must in anything Audio or Video when converting to a lower bit depth.
The dithered material is definitely not the original master, but it also not a pure 8bit conversion either.
The i1 Display Pro (a display calibration device) reads as though the display is 12bit, on a 8bit monitor from dithered patch generator.

I strongly disagree with the "Then just about every Blu-ray has improperly compressed 8 bit video" statement, this is just nonsense.
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post #1477 of 1495 Old 12-22-2014, 09:21 AM
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4k, 8, 10,00k.. None of it means crap when the format it compressed. Resolution means nothing 90% of the time.

I'd rather watch a 1080p Blu-ray at a solid bit-rate than a supposed "4k" streaming or broadcast video. Most people don't have a damned clue about it either.

The only time it is actually the intended resolution is when there is zero movement on the screen. When the micro blocking and macro blocking start (and you know they always do).. suddenly the resolution means absolutely nothing. It might as well be 360p. That is the reason I don't even subscribe to one streaming service and only have Blu-ray rental service on Netflix.

I'll wait for the movie on HBO rather than deal with streaming's complete crap audio and visual quality. And I have a plenty fast internet connection, the services never utilize it all anyways.

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post #1478 of 1495 Old 12-22-2014, 02:50 PM
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But all of it is compressed. Whether Netflix, OTA, cable, DVD or BD. They all use compression.

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post #1479 of 1495 Old 12-22-2014, 03:20 PM
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Yeah it is all a matter of degree though. Some BD audio tracks are considered loss-less, and they sound 100 times better than any streaming service I have ever heard. The difference in visual qulaity of a good BD video and any streaming service I have ever seen is huge as well.
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post #1480 of 1495 Old 12-23-2014, 08:10 PM
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And I love how some manufactures cheat and rate the lower end models at 6ohms not 8 ohms and instead of rating the amplifier at 20Hz-20KHz they rate it at 1Khz so they can fudge the power numbers and make it look better to the consumer that doesn't know much about A/V gear.
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post #1481 of 1495 Old 12-23-2014, 08:13 PM
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...And dts sounds better (louder) than Dolby Digital. ...DTS-HD MA versus Dolby TrueHD.
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post #1482 of 1495 Old 01-06-2015, 12:14 PM
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<p><br></p><p>The problems I have with streaming media are:</p><p>1. Poorer quality video and sound</p><p>2. High cost for the product offered (VUDU)</p><p>3. Inability to rewatch movies without paying to watch it again. Obviously this doesn't apply to Netflix or Amazon Prime, but the selection and streaming quality of both of those services are sub par compared to bluray. I realize that I'm the exception generally speaking. I don't like the way market seems headed. At all.</p><p><br></p><p><br></p><p><br></p><p>
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People embraced the leap from VHS to DVD not just because of the better quality a/v it offered (too subjective for many), but because of other benefits:</p><p>-no rewinding</p><p>-no degrading the quality over repeated viewings</p><p>-no issues with tracking</p><p>-smaller physical size</p><p>-easy ability to store bonus features</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>The jump from DVD to Bluray didn't really bring anything like that. If someone doesnt care to look for quality differences, or has a smaller television, there isn't much Bluray provides that they can't get from a DVD.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>Moving from DVD/Bluray to streaming has some more advantages:</p><p>-no need to physically store it</p><p>-not possible to damage it</p><p>-available immediately on demand</p><p>-extremely portable</p><p>-no moving parts to break
</p><p>&nbsp;</p>

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post #1483 of 1495 Old 01-22-2015, 08:32 PM
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I really hate the title of this tread, since it as was erroneous conclusion by "the Verge" as to what Sony was saying a couple of years ago about their optical disc manufacturing business. Let's get the facts related to Blu-ray clear. Sales of Blu-ray discs have increased every year since they were introduced in 2006. The 2014 sales were up 5% over 2013, so another years of increasing sales.


While its true that the sales for other types of optical discs (DVDs and CDs) have been going downward for a number of years and Sony's share of the manufacturing business has also declined, Blu-ray sales are still climbing. In fact a presentation given by a Sony rep. at last the NAB show last May showed that revenue generated for the studios from discs sales (Blu-rays plus DVDs) is still more than twice the revenue generated from streaming services.
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post #1484 of 1495 Old 01-24-2015, 06:21 AM
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I really hate the title of this tread, since it as was erroneous conclusion by "the Verge" as to what Sony was saying a couple of years ago about their optical disc manufacturing business. Let's get the facts related to Blu-ray clear. Sales of Blu-ray discs have increased every year since they were introduced in 2006. The 2014 sales were up 5% over 2013, so another years of increasing sales.


While its true that the sales for other types of optical discs (DVDs and CDs) have been going downward for a number of years and Sony's share of the manufacturing business has also declined, Blu-ray sales are still climbing. In fact a presentation given by a Sony rep. at last the NAB show last May showed that revenue generated for the studios from discs sales (Blu-rays plus DVDs) is still more than twice the revenue generated from streaming services.
Don't tell imagic that.

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post #1485 of 1495 Old 01-24-2015, 06:36 AM
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When I watch my blu-ray movies in my Samsung BD-F7500 with 4K UHD upscaling on my Samsung 4K UHD TV they look fantastic. I think "Bag of Hurt" refers to Steve Jobs comment on HDCP in blu-ray movie disks.
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post #1488 of 1495 Old 01-24-2015, 06:40 PM
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I wonder if buying an UHD TV will cause people that are happy with streaming quality to realize that it's not so good after all. Prices of UHD TV's are dropping rapidly. I just cannot stream watch a movie at home if I know I can get it in higher quality, that's just part of the pleasure of watching...Unless it's a Chick-Flick
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post #1489 of 1495 Old Yesterday, 06:20 AM
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I think most consumers will prefer the convenience of streaming 4K content over disc-based 4K content. Disc-based 4K won't have a single-view pricing advantage over streaming 4K, and I have doubts that superior audio/video quality on disc 4K can woo enough customers from streaming 4K to make disc 4K economically viable for manuafacturers.
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post #1490 of 1495 Old Yesterday, 07:30 AM
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I wonder if buying an UHD TV will cause people that are happy with streaming quality to realize that it's not so good after all. Prices of UHD TV's are dropping rapidly. I just cannot stream watch a movie at home if I know I can get it in higher quality, that's just part of the pleasure of watching...Unless it's a Chick-Flick
I think the slowness of the bluray manufacturers in coming out with a standard has given the streaming providers an open field to customers of 4K content.

Right now the only easily accessible 4K content is through Netflix, Amazon, et. al.

The upcoming 4K blurays will most likely be superior to the streaming content, given the advantages of the platform, but also suffer from issues that the streaming services don't. The largest (to my point of view) is HDMI. The bulk of the current 4K HDMI implementations (current, not future) don't seem to support > 10.2G speeds, and you need the full 18+G speed.

That limitation (since it's delivered over IP) is not there for streaming.

There's other limitations in streaming, but of course the point is moot since there are no 4K players and no 4K disk media available. By the time there are, the streaming services will have had almost a year's march on the disk and in customer's minds and habits (in my opinion).

I will be buying an Oppo 4K machine, when it's available - and at that time will buy a 4K panel (1080p until then), but I don't expect to represent the vast majority of people, who I believe will be doing mostly streaming.
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post #1491 of 1495 Old Today, 09:57 AM
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I think most consumers will prefer the convenience of streaming 4K content over disc-based 4K content. Disc-based 4K won't have a single-view pricing advantage over streaming 4K, and I have doubts that superior audio/video quality on disc 4K can woo enough customers from streaming 4K to make disc 4K economically viable for manuafacturers.
Right now the people buying 4K panels are likely those that also have good Internet access, so streaming will be viable for them. However when we start talking about "most consumers" unless something chances rapidly, they will not have good enough Internet access to stream high quality 4K content. It will be interesting to see how ISPs deal with this.
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post #1492 of 1495 Old Today, 10:16 AM
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The fact that studios releasing Blu-ray keeps punishing the ones paying for physical media by first releasing sub-par transfers and the keeps re-releasing it for a few years until they finally can do their job properly. They did the same thing with DVD and when Sony themselves seem to think that they can push 4K with releases like Battle LA, the Amazing Spider-man and the Total Recall remake it makes me wonder if they actually are planning to fail.

And I haven't even started to mention the poor quality control, the copy protection, unskippable railers and commercials (yay for snickers ads in SD).
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post #1493 of 1495 Old Today, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post
I really hate the title of this tread, since it as was erroneous conclusion by "the Verge" as to what Sony was saying a couple of years ago about their optical disc manufacturing business. Let's get the facts related to Blu-ray clear. Sales of Blu-ray discs have increased every year since they were introduced in 2006. The 2014 sales were up 5% over 2013, so another years of increasing sales.


While its true that the sales for other types of optical discs (DVDs and CDs) have been going downward for a number of years and Sony's share of the manufacturing business has also declined, Blu-ray sales are still climbing. In fact a presentation given by a Sony rep. at last the NAB show last May showed that revenue generated for the studios from discs sales (Blu-rays plus DVDs) is still more than twice the revenue generated from streaming services.
Yes BD sales have been increasing. I don't think anyone has said otherwise. The problem is that they are not increasing anywhere near enough to offset the decline of DVD sales. Of course BD sales will never reach what DVD sales did. Plus with streaming growing by leaps and bounds it's only a matter of time until streaming takes over.

It took many years at Netflix but finally their streaming revenue percentage exceeded their disc rental percentage. Although they needed something like six or seven times the number of streaming subscribers to achieve that, but never the less it happened.

And the growth of streaming will only accelerate. I would be surprised if the new "Ultra HD Blu-ray" format really gets much traction when it is launched late this year or early next year.

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post #1494 of 1495 Unread Today, 05:27 PM
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Sony selling twice as much disc as streaming doesn't surprise me as their system isn't even top 5 in highest grossing behind iTunes, Netflix, Amazon, Vudu, etc. They aren't comparing their BD sales to what they make in other mediums, they're comparing to what IS POSSIBLE for them to make. Knowing this makes me reluctant to jump inboard the 4K-BD bandwagon. Sony does NOT have a good track record in not abandoning its early adopters.

Saying that...my home uses AT&T mobile broadband with a 50GB cap at $375/mo (I live on a ranch 60 mi. Outside Austin TX)...and 6-10 Mbps is barely good enough for Netflix right now (and sometimes it's jumpy).

So...I'm over a barrel until Mobile speeds get faster.
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post #1495 of 1495 Unread Today, 06:19 PM
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Mobile speeds are already many,many times faster than that. The problem is that those speeds are in higher populated areas. Not much incentive to upgrade cell towers to super fast speeds where the population is spread out so far.

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