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post #181 of 1531 Old 05-02-2014, 06:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sage11x View Post

So my dad came over the other night and we watched pacific rim. He liked it. He asked if he could take it home and watch it with my step mom. I handed him the disc and told him I'd see him next week.

Yep. I'll keep buying physical media-- I guess I'm old fashioned.

 

Awesome. Discs are great for loaning and sharing.

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post #182 of 1531 Old 05-02-2014, 06:06 PM
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CD sales have by and large been replaced by digital (either purchased or pirated). whats to stop movies?

digitally archiving music didn't make a lot of sense in the late 90s with 56k modems and 3GB hard drives. within 5 years those points were moot.

maybe its a bias from my time in the htpc and digital media player subforums, but it seems everyone is archiving their movies onto hard drives, giving them the wow factor of a movie jukebox. if you could download the movie for the same cost or less why not? we do it with music.

the bandwidth issues, storage problems, and data caps might currently be problems, just as they were with CDs before technology progressed further.

it's still a long way off in the infrastructure.

a decade ago I had 100gb HDD's capable of storing 20 000+ songs.
today I've spent well over $1000 on hdd's that still only provide enough storage for about 2000 HD RIPS, or only a few hundred BD quality movies. I'm at about 1100 ripped into my collection, about half at 720p, and it occupies about 8-9TB of storage.

ten years ago I had a monthly bandwidth cap of 60gb/mth and speeds of around 500kB/s. again, 60gb's is tens of thousands of songs, and it would take only 2-3minutes to get each one, max.
today I have a cap of 150gb/mth, and speeds of 1500kB/s(but only for short 'bursts', I still only manage about 650kB/s continuous). my cap would only be good a couple of BD quality movies a month, and it would take a day or more to get each one.

the simple truth is, it's WAY more expensive, if possible at all, to download high quality movies today than it was to download music even in the days of napster. when it's commonplace to have 10TB HDD's that cost about 100bux, and either no caps on bandwidth or caps in the TB's per mth, and when 'normal' speed internet is 150mb/s minimum. THEN i'll believe we have the infrastructure required to make streaming HD video as reliable as streaming music was ten years ago. which still means we'd have another ten years of physical format to get to where we are today with cd vs digital.

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post #183 of 1531 Old 05-02-2014, 06:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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I'm not naive, but that goes both ways. The law is real. Copying a disc is illegal. Ergo, you don't own the data on the disc.

How do I permanently get to own a movie I stream? Do I not get to permanently own a Blu-ray I buy?

 

If you damage your physical Blu-ray, you don't own the movie anymore. That doesn't happen with a permanent license through Ultraviolet.


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post #184 of 1531 Old 05-02-2014, 06:10 PM
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Awesome. Discs are great for loaning and sharing.

not that the movie studios would sign off on it, but digital could be even better for sharing.

ive been capturing our family's old 8mm cassette and VHS home movies onto my htpc. I run a Plex server and created a home movie library. I shared that library with my dad, who lives in another city. as I add more videos to it my dad is able to access them on his pc and his Roku.

I could share my entire media collection with him if I wanted to. movies, music, talk radio recordings, pictures, DVR recordings, and more. Pacific Rim included.

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post #185 of 1531 Old 05-02-2014, 06:15 PM
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I'm not naive, but that goes both ways. The law is real. Copying a disc is illegal. Ergo, you don't own the data on the disc.

but the clear difference is how it functions after a company stops supporting it.

as it stands, I can still very easily play vhs tapes, I can play dvd's, and I can play bd's for as long as I can own and maintain a machine to play them. if sony went bankrupt tomorrow, or decided they no longer wanted to make dvd players, it would not affect my ability to play the movies I've purchased. but if one of the cloud based systems did, then what? how can you play the movies you purchased on ultraviolet if that server no longer exists?

also, NA laws aren't universal. while this is something Hollywood would obviously like to change, copyright laws differ by country, and some countries don't consider ripping a disc illegal. for whatever that's worth, I don't know. just stating it

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post #186 of 1531 Old 05-02-2014, 06:20 PM
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I predict the next article is sound bars replace separates. Whatever rolleyes.gif

So let's check back and see how sales stack up at the end of this year because it seems like Frozen by itself will help achieve another up year for physical media and possibly a record year I for total revenue. This discussion and numbers sited for streaming remind me of ebooks. At our college bookstore ebooks sales doubled last year from a half percent to one. I can site the hundred percent increase and make that look spectacular, but in reality they still have a long way to go before overtaking the old fashioned printed textbook.

This article makes me wonder if AVS was just bought by Google - a Fire is bought and all of a sudden physical media is doomed. All hail streaming. Hopefully we will all be around in a few years to see who is right. Sony may not be selling blu-rays in a year or two not because of a decision to drop the format but because they keep losing money.

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post #187 of 1531 Old 05-02-2014, 06:20 PM
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So my dad came over the other night and we watched pacific rim. He liked it. He asked if he could take it home and watch it with my step mom. I handed him the disc and told him I'd see him next week.

Yep. I'll keep buying physical media-- I guess I'm old fashioned.

to be fair, in a cloud based system, you could be able to email him account info(user name/password) and allow him to watch all your movies, and do so without preventing your from being able to watch them while he 'has them' either.

yeah, I like the physical better, but some of these arguments aren't physical vs digital, they are more about restrictions companies have decided on.

sometimes it works for the better. for example I know ppl who have Netflix, and use the account at home and at their cottages. it would be very inconvenient to transfer your entire movie collection with you, but a digital service COULD actually make sharing/transferring easier. it's all in how it's handled.

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post #188 of 1531 Old 05-02-2014, 06:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

I'm not naive, but that goes both ways. The law is real. Copying a disc is illegal. Ergo, you don't own the data on the disc.

but the clear difference is how it functions after a company stops supporting it.

as it stands, I can still very easily play vhs tapes, I can play dvd's, and I can play bd's for as long as I can own and maintain a machine to play them. if sony went bankrupt tomorrow, or decided they no longer wanted to make dvd players, it would not affect my ability to play the movies I've purchased. but if one of the cloud based systems did, then what? how can you play the movies you purchased on ultraviolet if that server no longer exists?

also, NA laws aren't universal. while this is something Hollywood would obviously like to change, copyright laws differ by country, and some countries don't consider ripping a disc illegal. for whatever that's worth, I don't know. just stating it

 

Great point. It is a shame then, that Europe was cited as leading the shift away from Blu-ray.


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post #189 of 1531 Old 05-02-2014, 06:22 PM
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This has spiraled into a pretty pointless pissing match. I'm out.

I love my iPhone, but it will never replace my turntable.

The Cinema 1858 Remodel Thread
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post #190 of 1531 Old 05-02-2014, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

If you damage your physical Blu-ray, you don't own the movie anymore. That doesn't happen with a permanent license through Ultraviolet.

I would absolutely agree that this is one of the upsides. one of the few that I thought would be neat if there weren't so many downsides. for myself, it's not a big deal since I haven't broken any discs, but I could imagine a family with young sticky fingered kids thinking it was a life-saver, haha.

if we're going for the perfect world, I think being able to rip your discs would be ideal. buy the bd, rip it to a more convenient storage method, put the disc back safely out of reach. that way if something does happen, you're covered.

maybe these companies will end up being reliable enough, or maybe the content providers will stem the fears by making the licenses multiplatform. ie, if you buy a Disney movie for ultraviolet, you would own the license to that Disney movie, not just the ultraviolet version. so if ultraviolet goes bankrupt, you just transfer your license, which is from Disney, not ultraviolet, to whatever company now has that movie streaming. something like that would certainly ease my fears a LOT.

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post #191 of 1531 Old 05-02-2014, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

to be fair, in a cloud based system, you could be able to email him account info(user name/password) and allow him to watch all your movies, and do so without preventing your from being able to watch them while he 'has them' either.

yeah, I like the physical better, but some of these arguments aren't physical vs digital, they are more about restrictions companies have decided on.

sometimes it works for the better. for example I know ppl who have Netflix, and use the account at home and at their cottages. it would be very inconvenient to transfer your entire movie collection with you, but a digital service COULD actually make sharing/transferring easier. it's all in how it's handled.

You assume Dad has a decent internet connection. We will probably see 8k displays before 50% of the US has the type of speed Mark enjoys. Google isn't expanding that fast and neither AT&T or Verizon are expanding their fiber networks quickly. AT&T DSL which is still prevalent in Birmingham - not fast enough for you to enjoy HD streams from Netflix or Vudu.

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post #192 of 1531 Old 05-02-2014, 06:27 PM
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Great point. It is a shame then, that Europe was cited as leading the shift away from Blu-ray.

maybe that's part of it though. I can see where a system that allows your to transfer digital copies devaluing the physical disc. seems like it's be a lot easier/more likely for somebody to buy the bd, rip to HDD, then sell to the next person who does the same, and so on and so on.

definitely more to it than I'm able to put together at this point in time

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post #193 of 1531 Old 05-02-2014, 06:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

If you damage your physical Blu-ray, you don't own the movie anymore. That doesn't happen with a permanent license through Ultraviolet.

I would absolutely agree that this is one of the upsides. one of the few that I thought would be neat if there weren't so many downsides. for myself, it's not a big deal since I haven't broken any discs, but I could imagine a family with young sticky fingered kids thinking it was a life-saver, haha.

if we're going for the perfect world, I think being able to rip your discs would be ideal. buy the bd, rip it to a more convenient storage method, put the disc back safely out of reach. that way if something does happen, you're covered.

maybe these companies will end up being reliable enough, or maybe the content providers will stem the fears by making the licenses multiplatform. ie, if you buy a Disney movie for ultraviolet, you would own the license to that Disney movie, not just the ultraviolet version. so if ultraviolet goes bankrupt, you just transfer your license, which is from Disney, not ultraviolet, to whatever company now has that movie streaming. something like that would certainly ease my fears a LOT.

 

Vudu is Wal-mart and iTunes is Apple and Amazon is... Amazon. I'm not too worried that these companies will evaporate tomorrow. It's more likely that Sony will get out of the electronics business, after all Sony's main line of business is insurance, not discs.


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post #194 of 1531 Old 05-02-2014, 06:29 PM
 
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You assume Dad has a decent internet connection. We will probably see 8k displays before 50% of the US has the type of speed Mark enjoys. Google isn't expanding that fast and neither AT&T or Verizon are expanding their fiber networks quickly. AT&T DSL which is still prevalent in Birmingham - not fast enough for you to enjoy HD streams from Netflix or Vudu.
AT&T's fiber deployment solution is laughable. tongue.gif I thought Verizon brought FIOS expansion to a standstill years ago, and Google seems to have no interest in expanding to any further cities than the 7 or so they are targeting/blanketing now. I may be out of the loop on the latest from AT&T (not bloody likely, though) and Verizon. wink.gif
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post #195 of 1531 Old 05-02-2014, 06:29 PM
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maybe that's part of it though. I can see where a system that allows your to transfer digital copies devaluing the physical disc. seems like it's be a lot easier/more likely for somebody to buy the bd, rip to HDD, then sell to the next person who does the same, and so on and so on.

definitely more to it than I'm able to put together at this point in time

that was microsofts original plan for xbox one games.

discs would simply be delivery mechanisms. you had to rip your disc to play the game, at which point the disc would've been worthless

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post #196 of 1531 Old 05-02-2014, 06:30 PM
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Great point. It is a shame then, that Europe was cited as leading the shift away from Blu-ray.

Yet, Blu-ray replication is up in Europe.

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post #197 of 1531 Old 05-02-2014, 06:33 PM
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Great point. It is a shame then, that Europe was cited as leading the shift away from Blu-ray.

no they don't thats a lie. UK and Germany had recordbreaking years in blu ray last year. UK was up 10% from 2012 in 2013. Germany to was way up

https://technology.ihs.com/454912/germany-now-europes-largest-blu-ray-disc-market
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post #198 of 1531 Old 05-02-2014, 06:33 PM
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You assume Dad has a decent internet connection. We will probably see 8k displays before 50% of the US has the type of speed Mark enjoys. Google isn't expanding that fast and neither AT&T or Verizon are expanding their fiber networks quickly. AT&T DSL which is still prevalent in Birmingham - not fast enough for you to enjoy HD streams from Netflix or Vudu.

well yes, but then you assume Dad has a bluray player...

apples or oranges, the possibilities are there if you want to support them(and I don't mean you personally, as I'm sure you and your dad don't control what internet services you can choose from, haha).

streaming is not really practical for me either, too slow, too unreliable. but if it was, i could see how streaming may be more universal than bluray ownership. i bought my first bd player last year for example. many of my friends have one, but all of my friends have a pc and internet(albeit the same slow ass internet i have)

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post #199 of 1531 Old 05-02-2014, 06:34 PM
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Yet, Blu-ray replication is up in Europe.

exactly. that guy really do not know the facts
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post #200 of 1531 Old 05-02-2014, 06:37 PM
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Vudu is Wal-mart and iTunes is Apple and Amazon is... Amazon. I'm not too worried that these companies will evaporate tomorrow. It's more likely that Sony will get out of the electronics business, after all Sony's main line of business is insurance, not discs.

the companies might not, but the services certainly could. there's been plenty of examples of recent 'powerhouses' in the a/v market losing money and downsizing. and i wouldn't put it passed any of those companies to reduce/eliminate support for hd content when UHD content becomes popular. how they handle that transition is up for speculation, but i doubt they'd honor your HD purchases and give you those movies in their UHD format. we all know how frustrating it is to replace your old favourites with a new format, imagine what it would have been like if dvd's stopped working 2yrs after BD was released.

again, highly speculative, but sometimes the devil you know is better than the devil you don't

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post #201 of 1531 Old 05-02-2014, 06:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Great point. It is a shame then, that Europe was cited as leading the shift away from Blu-ray.

no they don't thats a lie. UK and Germany had recordbreaking years in blu ray last year. UK was up 10% from 2012 in 2013. Germany to was way up

https://technology.ihs.com/454912/germany-now-europes-largest-blu-ray-disc-market

 

It's what Sony cited in the article I linked to. Back in February Sony was much more optimistic. Things change, maybe the market shifted drastically. I don't have the answer. Sony blames a sudden drop in European Blu-ray demand for it's poor financials. That's the story.


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post #202 of 1531 Old 05-02-2014, 06:41 PM
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that was microsofts original plan for xbox one games.

discs would simply be delivery mechanisms. you had to rip your disc to play the game, at which point the disc would've been worthless

right, but right now those discs aren't worthless after being ripped. and that's where i could imagine it causes less sales. because everybody is passing around the same used bd instead of hanging onto and making others buy their own new bd.

but on that topic, that style of delivery mechanism would certainly be harmful to the success of physical media. if you take away the major advantage of physical media(it working 100% independently of any other service) then everything else is just a matter of time. streaming/downloading certainly COULD provide bit for bit copies of bd's, it's just not practical for many markets yet

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post #203 of 1531 Old 05-02-2014, 06:51 PM
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For a quality perspective check out A Brief History of the Television at Popular Mechanics, http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/digital/home-entertainment/a-brief-history-of-your-television?click=pp.  We've come a long way and people's perspective can be shifted by their history.  I appreciate an HQ image perhaps more than most, I'm a demanding video consumer.

 

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Vudu is Wal-mart and iTunes is Apple and Amazon is... Amazon. I'm not too worried that these companies will evaporate tomorrow. It's more likely that Sony will get out of the electronics business, after all Sony's main line of business is insurance, not discs.


Wow, maybe they should insure their disks.:D  A good way to improve both businesses.  No?  That was just too easy.  Sorry if it's too corny.

 

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sometimes it works for the better. for example I know ppl who have Netflix, and use the account at home and at their cottages. it would be very inconvenient to transfer your entire movie collection with you, but a digital service COULD actually make sharing/transferring easier. it's all in how it's handled.


Not much of a "cottage" if it's got that good an internet connection.  If I had a "cottage" I'd need a sat pager to check in.  Why have a "cottage" if it's not to get away from modern stuff.

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post #204 of 1531 Old 05-02-2014, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

I don't agree with the notion that streaming is close to the quality of Blu-ray especially in motion. This is evident on a 65" display and even more evident on a 120" screen from proper seating distances, of course.

4K Blu is coming is next year.


Couldn't say it better................
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post #205 of 1531 Old 05-02-2014, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

The whole point of the original post is that physical Blu-ray media is clearly not still making money, at least not as much as Sony thought it was just three months ago.

Not making money (as in breaking even or even losing money) are not the same thing as making less money than expected. The later indicates that they are still making money. Unless you believe that Sony has the potential to turn enough of the potential bluray sales that they would lose by retiring the format into digital download/streaming sales for Sony then they are better off continuing to sell discs. It does Sony no good to pull the plug on bluray if that just means those lost sales get their content from a different company. The only reason to stop selling discs is if a) they actually lose money on them or b) they have the ability to make up that money or more on digital delivery sales that wouldn't have occurred if discs still exist. Personally, I don't see "b" happening for Sony. They would simply lose those sales to iTunes, Vudu, Flixster, Kaleidescape, etc.
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post #206 of 1531 Old 05-02-2014, 07:43 PM
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A lot of people seem to be looking forward to the death of physical media with glee. To me this is the worst thing that could happen, for everyone. Even if you never buy another disc, the existence of physical media is not hurting you. I would argue that the existence of higher quality physical media is the main reason you have seen as much improvement in the quality of downloaded/streamed media. Without it, their would be no target to chase. Nothing to compete with. The best thing that could happen for the potential future quality of UHD streaming and downloads would be the creation of a UHD physical format. Without it, increases in quality will take a back seat to decreasing bandwidth, in order to decrease costs and increase profit margins.
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post #207 of 1531 Old 05-02-2014, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

You are right about that...



That's great for you, but you realize the average US download speed is 20MB. Even with your blazing fast connection you are still looking at 2.5 hours to download. Now imagine what is going to happen to their servers when people try to download that much data for so long, and that is assuming rather small 100GB downloads. Most 4K DCI movies sent to theaters on hard drives are around 300-400GB.


http://theweek.com/article/index/257404/why-is-american-internet-so-slow
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post #208 of 1531 Old 05-02-2014, 07:48 PM
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If you damage your physical Blu-ray, you don't own the movie anymore. That doesn't happen with a permanent license through Ultraviolet.

Any time I have had physical media damaged, I sent it back to the company and they sent me a replacement. 2 blu-rays and 2 xbox games so far.
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post #209 of 1531 Old 05-02-2014, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by sytech View Post


Any time I have had physical media damaged, I sent it back to the company and they sent me a replacement. 2 blu-rays and 2 xbox games so far.


Nice.  Since the 80s I've owned about a thousand shiny disks of different types.  I've only lost one to damage so far...a music CD which I recovered by making a copy on a computer, computer error correction is more robust.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyoAJB View Post
The best thing that could happen for the potential future quality of UHD streaming and downloads would be the creation of a UHD physical format. Without it, increases in quality will take a back seat to decreasing bandwidth, in order to decrease costs and increase profit margins.

I agree.  Good thought!

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post #210 of 1531 Old 05-02-2014, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by sytech View Post

Any time I have had physical media damaged, I sent it back to the company and they sent me a replacement. 2 blu-rays and 2 xbox games so far.

i have had no problem either. And if you do you just buy it again and it will probably be cheaper then. The whole deal with Ultraviolet is again "you buy air ready to be lost forever" what happens if Ultraviolet cease to exist then ALL your money spend and movies you have on these codes has gone down the drain. Then you really are in deep sh!t
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