Kaleidescape Settles Lawsuit With DVD CCA - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 130 Old 06-07-2014, 06:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Kaleidescape Settles Lawsuit With DVD CCA



On June 2, 2014, Kaleidescape and the DVD Copy Control Association reached a settlement in a decade-long court battle over customers' right to import DVDs onto the company's server, and then play the content without inserting a disc. As a result of the agreement, Kaleidescape systems sold after November 14, 2014, will no longer import CSS-protected DVDs. 

  

According to Kaleidescape, the agreement clears the way for the company to become "the de-facto platform for high-resolution content delivery"—a bold claim given the crowded field of competitors, including Apple, Walmart (Vudu), Amazon, Google, Microsoft, and Comcast. That's only a partial list of companies that offer high-definition movies for purchase or rent, and every one of them is a truly formidable mega-corporation. If Kaleidescape is to succeed in its stated goal, it needs to offer something more than just high-definition content accessible through an online store.

According to the company, the answer lies in the details, including higher-quality content and a better interface. When it comes to beating the tech giants at the online-delivery game, Kaleidescape touts the fact that its downloads are true Blu-ray quality for both video and audio—what you download is the same data you would get on a disc. The company says it has the most extensive database of movie metadata in the world, which makes it easy to search for movies and find specific scenes in any collection. I've demoed a Kaleidescape Cinema One for the past couple months; during that time, I've come to appreciate what a refined luxury product it is. However, it was hard to get past the limited selection of movies in the online store.

Personally, I've given up on collecting Blu-ray discs. I want my data to come from the cloud, not a plastic platter. To that end, Kaleidescape promises that the selection of movies in its online store will expand significantly by November 30, 2014—almost literally the day after the agreement in the settlement takes effect. In a statement, the company said it "expects to have most DVD movies available for download from the Kaleidescape Store in the United States." According to Cheena Srinivasan, founder and CEO of Kaleidescape, “This agreement is a watershed moment for Kaleidescape. Electronically delivered movies are the future of home video. This agreement allows us to focus on creating the future of digital content ownership.” 

When I asked Kaleidescape to elaborate on its digital-content strategy, I received the following response from Mr. Srinivasan: 

"It is important to observe that customers in our target market care about quality, convenience, and choice. Kaleidescape makes the user interface so beautiful that it doesn’t matter whether the content is in DVD, Blu-ray Disc, or an electronically delivered format. When they want to browse their personal movie library, they can experience the same great Kaleidescape experience as content formats migrate from physical to electronic over time. 

"The injunction will only affect the playback of CSS-protected DVDs. Blu-ray, downloaded movies, and DVDs that are not protected by CSS will still be treated the same as they are today. However, by November 30, 2014, there will be substantially more content available in the Kaleidescape Store. Consequently, for most DVDs that are imported today, Kaleidescape will provide disc-to-digital conversion to a downloaded movie of equivalent or better quality. This will be especially convenient for a customer with multiple Kaleidescape systems because the customer will be able to load his DVD collection on all of his systems at once. In addition, a larger number of DVDs loaded this way will receive UltraViolet rights that enable playback on portable devices. A new feature will make it possible to play physical DVDs from a vault, and the playback of a DVD from the tray will be improved. These new features will make the Kaleidescape offering even more compelling, not less." 

I wondered if the anticipated expansion of the online selection would also apply to Blu-ray-quality downloads, and the answer was yes. Since Kaleidescape already honors UltraViolet licenses in its store, I think this is the most important feature, the one that sets Kaleidescape apart—online delivery of true Blu-ray-quality content. If Kaleidescape delivers on this promise of a significantly expanded selection of high-definition movies for online delivery, then perhaps it does have a chance to become the de facto platform for high-definition content that it seeks to be. 

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Last edited by imagic; 06-12-2014 at 08:15 AM.
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post #2 of 130 Old 06-07-2014, 08:30 PM
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Good luck to everyone depending upon cloud storage when your ISP enforces caps w/overage fees. As for me I'll continue to buy discs and rip them with DVD Fab and watch them via my own in-home server. When discs are no longer available, I'll reconsider my options.
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post #3 of 130 Old 06-07-2014, 08:57 PM
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I have a full kaleidescape setup and love it. I keep checking to see if the online content will expand. It seems it will. Great news indeed!
I'm still waiting for them to put "covers" on the iPad and big screen when selecting "genres". That would be the sole improvement I would make to an almost perfect system. smile.gif
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post #4 of 130 Old 06-08-2014, 12:31 AM
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Originally Posted by mhufnagel View Post

Good luck to everyone depending upon cloud storage when your ISP enforces caps w/overage fees. As for me I'll continue to buy discs and rip them with DVD Fab and watch them via my own in-home server. When discs are no longer available, I'll reconsider my options.

Hear! Hear!
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post #5 of 130 Old 06-08-2014, 03:59 AM
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Good luck to everyone depending upon cloud storage when your ISP enforces caps w/overage fees. As for me I'll continue to buy discs and rip them with DVD Fab and watch them via my own in-home server. When discs are no longer available, I'll reconsider my options.

You'll just have to wait for Kaleidescape to pay ISP's for preferential treatment.
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post #6 of 130 Old 06-08-2014, 09:22 AM
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You'll just have to wait for Kaleidescape to pay ISP's for preferential treatment.

Lol.

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post #7 of 130 Old 06-08-2014, 09:40 AM
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Good luck to everyone depending upon cloud storage when your ISP enforces caps w/overage fees. As for me I'll continue to buy discs and rip them with DVD Fab and watch them via my own in-home server. When discs are no longer available, I'll reconsider my options.

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post #8 of 130 Old 06-08-2014, 09:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Good luck to everyone depending upon cloud storage when your ISP enforces caps w/overage fees. As for me I'll continue to buy discs and rip them with DVD Fab and watch them via my own in-home server. When discs are no longer available, I'll reconsider my options.

 

OK, and Kaleidescape owners will download Blu-ray quality movies and watch them via their in-home server. It's not as if it's streaming each time. Plus, if you can afford a Kaleidescape system, you can afford some extra bandwidth.

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post #9 of 130 Old 06-08-2014, 10:02 AM
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If Kaleidescape is to succeed in its stated goal, it needs to offer something more than just high-definition content accessible through an online store.

Mark, I agree with the quote above. I currently use Netflix for whenever I stream content and I really don't know if Kaleidescape's offering is enough for me to switch/add another streaming service. One of my questions would be their pricing. Will they be competitively priced? I don't believe a decent interface and "higher quality" can command a premium price in the streaming realm.
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post #10 of 130 Old 06-08-2014, 10:19 AM
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It's great that they offer full blu ray quality.

That's what I get ... I just happen to get it from the actual blu rays... it's quite a bit easier that way.
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post #11 of 130 Old 06-08-2014, 10:22 AM
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In my first post I misunderstood the type of service. I thought it was a streaming service. If the movie will be downloaded every time, then that would be great. The issue I see is that some forethought would have to be put into what you want to watch for some areas. My neighborhood, densely populated, supports 45 Mbps (U-Verse) and 105 Mbps (Comcast) but just one neighborhood over the best they can get is 3 Mbps. The people in that neighborhood, sparsely populated, can comfortably afford a Kaleidescape system. This may be the exception but it is something to consider.
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post #12 of 130 Old 06-08-2014, 12:20 PM
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OK, and Kaleidescape owners will download Blu-ray quality movies and watch them via their in-home server. It's not as if it's streaming each time. Plus, if you can afford a Kaleidescape system, you can afford some extra bandwidth.

But downloading and storage on a HDD isn't the same as "cloud storage". And my solution is better, no pesky DRM to take into consideration.
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post #13 of 130 Old 06-08-2014, 12:25 PM
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Because having an in home server is so convenient...

I can afford this system and id rather pay for next day shipping.
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post #14 of 130 Old 06-08-2014, 01:01 PM
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Because having an in home server is so convenient...

I can afford this system and id rather pay for next day shipping.
An in-home server is pretty convenient. I can watch my BD collection anywhere in the house or on the road and not just on the tv the system is connected to. My system isn't limited in storage capacity either. I can expand very easily and inexpensively. And I can keep my discs nice and safe in their cases in a storage area in the basement.

While it is nice that you can afford a Kaleidescape system, the vast majority of video buffs can't or won't buy one. An in home server is great for most of the people posting on these threads and they're a lot easier to set-up than most people realize.
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post #15 of 130 Old 06-08-2014, 01:54 PM
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An in-home server is pretty convenient. I can watch my BD collection anywhere in the house or on the road and not just on the tv the system is connected to. My system isn't limited in storage capacity either. I can expand very easily and inexpensively. And I can keep my discs nice and safe in their cases in a storage area in the basement.

While it is nice that you can afford a Kaleidescape system, the vast majority of video buffs can't or won't buy one. An in home server is great for most of the people posting on these threads and they're a lot easier to set-up than most people realize.
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post #16 of 130 Old 06-08-2014, 01:54 PM
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A system like this we are talking about is for people that have more money than the time and ambition it takes to create a superior media server themselves. Totally different markets. You'd think they complete with each other but they don't. A surgeon working 50 hours a week and being on call isn't going to want to waste his precious time fooling around with trying to replicate one of these systems DIY. Since my bank account is small but my DIY spirit and knowledge of PC is very high I take the opposite approach, it's different strokes for different folks. No different than a DIY speaker builder vs a Mfg made , or a DIY theater builder vs a Turk key buyer. Sure it's true that with DIY you save some $ in exchange for the investment of your personal sweat equity, but there more to doing a DIY project than just money. Customization, personal pride, sense of accomplishment, enjoying the hobby and adventure as much as the destination... Lots of stuff plays into account. Keep an open mind. I'm not trading my DIY media server in anytime soon, but I get what someone might like about a non DIY option. You can't compare DIY and non DIY, DIY on the upper end is always going to surpass anything else because of the passion and talent of some of the folks here. There is no replacement for talent and passion no matter how big your checkbook is. But for someone that just wants to enjoy their movies without much fuss, there's nothing wrong with that either.
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post #17 of 130 Old 06-08-2014, 01:57 PM
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A surgeon working 50 hours a week and being on call isn't going to want to waste his precious time fooling around with trying to replicate one of these systems DIY.

Why not? What if it's the hobby he loves to unwind with?

My brother is a doctor who works in the emergency ward a lot. He builds canoes in his spare time. Why couldn't a doctor be a Home Theater buff who loves to tinker with computers?
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post #18 of 130 Old 06-08-2014, 02:03 PM
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Well sure you could but then you'd be a DIY guy. The profession has nothing to do with DIY or not, it was just an example. Anyone in any profession and at any income level can have a passion for home theater or PCs, but for anyone that doesn't want to take the DIY route there's turn key options. That's the point. If you didn't have the passion for building your own system and you had the funds to buy a turn key option nothing wrong with that was the main point. No everyone has the passion or talent; in comparison a lot more people have the financial means is my guess.

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post #19 of 130 Old 06-08-2014, 02:22 PM
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OK, and Kaleidescape owners will download Blu-ray quality movies and watch them via their in-home server. It's not as if it's streaming each time. Plus, if you can afford a Kaleidescape system, you can afford some extra bandwidth.

You have no tangible asset with any online purchasing service, any money you spend in a purchase really only provides the ability to repeatedly rent the movie over, and over, and over. If Kaleidescape actually sent the disc to you I'd feel differently, but as far as I know they don't

So you're dependent on Kaleidescape as a single point of contact to deliver your media. You can only warranty their devices for up to 5 years. At that point you'll either have to invest in new hardware to protect your 'purchases' or HOPE your device doesn't fail. If the business and/or your device fails you're out of luck, all your purchases are simply gone. With their entry level system that's $7000.00 down the drain.

Owning physical media mitigates that risk. As long as I have a device that can read that physical media I'll have some way to deliver the content to my TV.
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post #20 of 130 Old 06-08-2014, 02:36 PM - Thread Starter
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OK, and Kaleidescape owners will download Blu-ray quality movies and watch them via their in-home server. It's not as if it's streaming each time. Plus, if you can afford a Kaleidescape system, you can afford some extra bandwidth.

You have no tangible asset with any online purchasing service, any money you spend in a purchase really only provides the ability to repeatedly rent the movie over, and over, and over. If Kaleidescape actually sent the disc to you I'd feel differently, but as far as I know they don't

So you're dependent on Kaleidescape as a single point of contact to deliver your media. You can only warranty their devices for up to 5 years. At that point you'll either have to invest in new hardware to protect your 'purchases' or HOPE your device doesn't fail. If the business and/or your device fails you're out of luck, all your purchases are simply gone. With their entry level system that's $7000.00 down the drain.

Owning physical media mitigates that risk. As long as I have a device that can read that physical media I'll have some way to deliver the content to my TV.

 

All of Kaleidescape's online offerings are licensed through UltraViolet; even if the company folds, you retain rights to purchases.

I'm ambivalent about the risks of a keeping a virtual movie collection. Physical discs are not immune to theft or disaster, for one thing. Not that I'd expect a thief to load up on used Blu-rays... most of them are essentially worthless.


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post #21 of 130 Old 06-08-2014, 02:45 PM
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All of Kaleidescape's online offerings are licensed through UltraViolet; even if the company folds, you retain rights to purchases.


I'm ambivalent about the risks of a keeping a virtual movie collection. Physical discs are not immune to theft or disaster, for one thing. Not that I'd expect a thief to load up on used Blu-rays... most of them are essentially worthless.

UV is a kludge with too many services and quality levels. It's still virtual media.

I have homeowners insurance to protect against thieves and disaster, it doesn't protect me against business, service, or device failure.
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post #22 of 130 Old 06-08-2014, 03:05 PM
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I like that friends and family can peruse my collection and that I can lend them discs they are interested in after the evening is over.
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post #23 of 130 Old 06-08-2014, 03:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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All of Kaleidescape's online offerings are licensed through UltraViolet; even if the company folds, you retain rights to purchases.


I'm ambivalent about the risks of a keeping a virtual movie collection. Physical discs are not immune to theft or disaster, for one thing. Not that I'd expect a thief to load up on used Blu-rays... most of them are essentially worthless.

UV is a kludge with too many services and quality levels. It's still virtual media.

I have homeowners insurance to protect against thieves and disaster, it doesn't protect me against business, service, or device failure.

 

The fact there are multiple services that use UV licensing is its strength, IMO. As for the quality level, I'm quite happy with Vudu HDX, and I thought it was pretty cool that kaleidescape honors those licenses at the Blu-ray quality download tier.

Insurance might protect (part of) the value of a Blu-ray collection, but not the collection itself.


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post #24 of 130 Old 06-08-2014, 03:49 PM
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As for the quality level, I'm quite happy with Vudu HDX, and I thought it was pretty cool that kaleidescape honors those licenses at the Blu-ray quality download tier.

As for having the best quality, you couldn't care less. Convenience trumps quality for you, as you have made clear again, and again, and again.
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post #25 of 130 Old 06-08-2014, 03:51 PM
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I like that friends and family can peruse my collection and that I can lend them discs they are interested in after the evening is over.

Absolutely agree.

In fact, check out the link in my signature and you can see all the films that friends of mine are free to borrow.
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post #26 of 130 Old 06-08-2014, 03:52 PM
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The fact there are multiple services that use UV licensing is its strength, IMO. As for the quality level, I'm quite happy with Vudu HDX, and I thought it was pretty cool that kaleidescape honors those licenses at the Blu-ray quality download tier.
The question is where would the movies end up? Would they end up on VUDU or Flixster or Cinemanow or multiple services depending on studio? The WAF doesn't allow multiple services with a 1300 movie collection.
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Insurance might protect (part of) the value of a Blu-ray collection, but not the collection itself.
At least there's protection. You get ZERO protection when an online service fails other than the hope that another service picks up your 'purchases' and delivers them to you.
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post #27 of 130 Old 06-08-2014, 03:56 PM
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I like that friends and family can peruse my collection and that I can lend them discs they are interested in after the evening is over.

The movie studios certainly don't like it.
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post #28 of 130 Old 06-08-2014, 04:19 PM - Thread Starter
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As for the quality level, I'm quite happy with Vudu HDX, and I thought it was pretty cool that kaleidescape honors those licenses at the Blu-ray quality download tier.

As for having the best quality, you couldn't care less. Convenience trumps quality for you, as you have made clear again, and again, and again.

 

That's simply untrue; I care a great deal about quality, and the difference between Vudu HDX and Blu-ray is quite small. In fact, watching Vudu HDX on a plasma has only reinforced that view. I used to be criticized for watching Vudu on an LCD. Now, I've tried both front projection and a plasma—it's only reinforced what I already knew—HDX looks great. Yes, Blu-ray looks a wee bit better, but it's a given that Blu-ray's quality will be beaten by online delivery of UHD/4K. What's not so clear is whether Blu-ray will have a viable successor, or if such a format would meet the same fate as SACD.


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post #29 of 130 Old 06-08-2014, 04:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

The fact there are multiple services that use UV licensing is its strength, IMO. As for the quality level, I'm quite happy with Vudu HDX, and I thought it was pretty cool that kaleidescape honors those licenses at the Blu-ray quality download tier.
The question is where would the movies end up? Would they end up on VUDU or Flixster or Cinemanow or multiple services depending on studio? The WAF doesn't allow multiple services with a 1300 movie collection.
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Insurance might protect (part of) the value of a Blu-ray collection, but not the collection itself.
At least there's protection. You get ZERO protection when an online service fails other than the hope that another service picks up your 'purchases' and delivers them to you.

 

I don't have WAF issues. And yes, I have a wife.
 

It's not really a hope, it's a license. The primary vendors are Apple and Walmart (Vudu). I'm OK with putting my eggs in those baskets.


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post #30 of 130 Old 06-08-2014, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

That's simply untrue; I care a great deal about quality, and the difference between Vudu HDX and Blu-ray is quite small. In fact, watching Vudu HDX on a plasma has only reinforced that view. I used to be criticized for watching Vudu on an LCD. Now, I've tried both front projection and a plasma—it's only reinforced what I already knew—HDX looks great. Yes, Blu-ray looks a wee bit better, but it's a given that Blu-ray's quality will be beaten by online delivery of UHD/4K. What's not so clear is whether Blu-ray will have a viable successor, or if such a format would meet the same fate as SACD.

There is no winning with you. Even when Blu-ray is superior, by whatever margin, you still can't admit that you prefer convenience over quality.

And don't give me that Vudu UHD/4K in the future malarkey. Of course there will be a disk-based successor to Blu-ray....and it will also be superior to streaming in more ways than just video.
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