Dolby Atmos is Coming to Blu-ray - Page 12 - AVS Forum
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post #331 of 392 Old 07-03-2014, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
Yes, but this is all about movie making, not movie listening. I can see why Atmos is useful for movie makers, for the reasons you give and others. Or maybe even useful in theaters, because there are many speakers to manage and large differences among theater speaker installations.

But at home? Why? So long as the number of speakers is small and their locations are stereotyped, the Atmos-type calculations can be done once to distribute sounds among a few channels, corresponding roughly with the speakers people have at home, and that can be made into a soundtrack, as is done now. There is no point to repeating all those calculations in everyone's home AVRs every time a movie is played. For you programmers, it's the difference between program compilation (what is done now in multichannel sound) and program interpretation (what would be done by Atmos at home).

The impression that Atmos has some inherent aural advantage (other than adding overhead channels) is just mistaken and stems from an incomplete understanding of how multichannel sound works.
You can put one audio element, be it dialog, or music, or a sound effect in an object and extract it from all the other clatter in the channel bed and place it in an individual speaker, which can make intelligibility better. You cannot do that with channel based audio.

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post #332 of 392 Old 07-03-2014, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
But aside from processing issues, there's the delivery pipe. Objects are just like channels as far as bandwidth is concerned, (if coded the same, be it lossy or lossless). Since we are talking about existing Blu-ray as one of the first formats, how much more bitrate are the content makers willing to allocate to audio, knowing it can begin to impact video at some point? Similar issues exist for online delivery where bandwidth is severely constrained.
So if I understand you correctly, Roger, increasing the number of objects would increase the audio bit rate?
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post #333 of 392 Old 07-03-2014, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
But at home? Why? So long as the number of speakers is small and their locations are stereotyped, the Atmos-type calculations can be done once to distribute sounds among a few channels.
But we have history to show that the "small number of speakers" may seem like we peaked right now, and we will never need more continues to be false.
In home cinema we started with mono ... then stereo ... then 3 channels, then 5, then 7, then 7 plus height. Each time I am sure everyone thought as you do now. "We already have 5 channels of sound, who would ever need more?". Many people said that. Then, shocker, 7 channel surround was invented. "7 channels ... who would need more?" ... Then a height channel was created. This evolution will never stop.

While (today at least) it may be hard to imagine it being common to have 7, 9, or 11 channel systems, it probably sounded unreasonable for homes to have 5 speakers at one point. Atmos is betting on the future ... 5, 10 years out. Is it hard to imagine that in 10 years more homes will have more speakers, ceiling speakers, even floor speakers (sound coming from under you)?
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post #334 of 392 Old 07-03-2014, 12:03 PM
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Many people still think 5 speakers are far too many. They get soundbars and a 4" subwoofer. o_O

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post #335 of 392 Old 07-03-2014, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
So long as the number of speakers is small and their locations are stereotyped, the Atmos-type calculations can be done once to distribute sounds among a few channels, corresponding roughly with the speakers people have at home, and that can be made into a soundtrack, as is done now.
If the number of speakers increase and actual locations cannot fit the stereotype, how will a channel-based soundtrack adapt?

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post #336 of 392 Old 07-03-2014, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
If the number of speakers increase and actual locations cannot fit the stereotype, how will a channel-based soundtrack adapt?
How did we get Dolby PLIIz?

I understand from some material on Dolby's website, that matrix techniques are available for localizing sounds to upward directions, using Dolby height speakers. I doubt this has ever been used in a movie, but it could be (if anyone cared enough).

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post #337 of 392 Old 07-03-2014, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
How did we get Dolby PLIIz?
Dolby wanted to add a subtle sense of height to source material that had no height content. But that's not a solution to adapting the same soundtrack to different speakers layouts (different = in number of speakers and location).
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I understand from some material on Dolby's website, that matrix techniques are available for localizing sounds to upward directions, using Dolby height speakers.
You would rather see matrix surround processing used instead of object-based audio?

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post #338 of 392 Old 07-03-2014, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
You would rather see matrix surround processing used instead of object-based audio?
I don't see why I should have to choose between those alternatives. I'd like to have a few more channels. But not an infinite number -- my needs are simple. What does the UHD spec call for? I can't recall, exactly, but it's a small number. 22, perhaps. That would do, for me.

Do you recall the question you asked? "If the number of speakers increase and actual locations cannot fit the stereotype, how will a channel-based soundtrack adapt?" That's the question I was answering.

(On the needed number of channels in multichannel audio, when I referred above to "22", I was evidently thinking of the "Super Hi-Vision specifications" of NHK, which call for 22.2 channel sound.)

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post #339 of 392 Old 07-03-2014, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
The impression that Atmos has some inherent aural advantage (other than adding overhead channels) is just mistaken and stems from an incomplete understanding of how multichannel sound works.
Quite the opposite.


Being able to place certain sounds (objects) in precise locations based on listener and speaker position is impossible with channel based audio. You can fake it, but it will never sound as good.

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post #340 of 392 Old 07-03-2014, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post
Many people still think 5 speakers are far too many. They get soundbars and a 4" subwoofer. o_O
I know. Pathetic isn't it. Ha!
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post #341 of 392 Old 07-03-2014, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
I don't see why I should have to choose between those alternatives.
Because one makes the other superfluous. With object-based audio mapping to the number of speakers and their locations, there is nothing for matrix upmixing and downmixing to do.
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Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
-- my needs are simple. ... That would do, for me.
Designing a system around your needs imposes that limitation onto others. By comparison, object-based audio can scale to your needs without limiting others.
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post #342 of 392 Old 07-03-2014, 08:51 PM
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So if I understand you correctly, Roger, increasing the number of objects would increase the audio bit rate?
Yes indeed.
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post #343 of 392 Old 07-03-2014, 09:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
Yes indeed.
In technological hindsight, would it have been better, in the long run, if Dolby had waited for UHD media that could have had a larger capacity and bit bucket to work with?

Or, would they actually improve and enhance the Atmos codec for the next disc format?

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post #344 of 392 Old 07-03-2014, 11:17 PM
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It also is to be said that objects don't necessarily need to be 'lossless'. You can have a fully lossless soundtrack supplemented with lossy objects.

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #345 of 392 Old 07-03-2014, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
It also is to be said that objects don't necessarily need to be 'lossless'. You can have a fully lossless soundtrack supplemented with lossy objects.
I wouldn't for as much as possible. I want the best fidelity... I would rather not lose that for the sake of "more."
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post #346 of 392 Old 07-03-2014, 11:41 PM
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Oh, right. Cuz you're going to be able to tell some transient 'object' is lossy or lossless.

Man.... I would never be able to tell and I'm that guy saying I sure can. I'd give the hybrid config the benefit of the doubt, personally.

But I hear ya, bro. Like you I have very simple and reasonable expectations of some form of 'hi-definition' standard. Hell, go to HTF and I think my sig is a copy and paste of your old: "1080p high bitrate and uncompressed 7.1 audio" or whatever it was.

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post #347 of 392 Old 07-04-2014, 12:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
In technological hindsight, would it have been better, in the long run, if Dolby had waited for UHD media that could have had a larger capacity and bit bucket to work with?

Or, would they actually improve and enhance the Atmos codec for the next disc format?
Once we accept the fact that a home Atmos track will not be a clone of the cinema track due to bandwidth and computation realities, the game is to get best bang for buck out of the available consumer format resources. That applies to the audio assets but also to the entire disc, too, wrt video quality, number of languages, other features, and number of disc layers.

For all these same reasons, UHD may not automatically mean a windfall in audio capacity, so BD makes a great dress rehearsal.

Speaking theoretically, as Scott well said, certain objects can use lossy coding with no audible consequence, and in fact the bitrate can be chosen to suit the object's characteristics. It's a new world of codec/content optimization options that never existed before with channel-based audio.
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post #348 of 392 Old 07-04-2014, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by imarkup View Post
and we will never need more continues to be false.

This evolution will never stop.

Is it hard to imagine that in 10 years more homes will have more speakers, ceiling speakers, even floor speakers (sound coming from under you)?

comment on first line - how much more will we "need"? Fanboys maybe and even then to a degree. How many more will be needed in average size rooms? electronic hoarders?


comment on second line - will it go to 100 speakers for total emersion?

comment on third line - Yes it is hard to imagine that more and more homes needing that many speakers -re:fanboys only

conclulsion: Dolby is designing for a niche market

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post #349 of 392 Old 07-04-2014, 10:40 AM
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Obviously, the entire wall surface will be a video display and arbitrary regions will be able to act as speakers.. So when you're watching a documentary about extinct wildlife, the sound of the squirrel chattering at you will follow him around the room through the tree branches and rustling leaves. For example

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post #350 of 392 Old 07-04-2014, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by bass excavator View Post
conclulsion: Dolby is designing for a niche market
If by "niche market" you mean all consumers, since the niche includes everything from Onkyo HTiBs to the Trinnov Altitude 32.

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post #351 of 392 Old 07-04-2014, 12:09 PM
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Are there specifications know for the spl output of the atmos height channels ? Or specifications in general ?

If i read the cinema version it seems to be 99 dB.

Can that be done with those speakers that reflect via the ceiling ? Not that i want any, but if 99 dB is enough the choice is more easy for small active speakers.
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post #352 of 392 Old 07-04-2014, 11:49 PM
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If by "niche market" you mean all consumers, since the niche includes everything from Onkyo HTiBs to the Trinnov Altitude 32.
That's exactly what I mean.

I think Atmos is a fantastic development but for home use there will be relatively few consumers opting for this as compared to those of us who enjoy home cinema as a hobby. I am only pointing this out from an overall mass business point of view and not from a technological one. I'm just being realistic.

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post #353 of 392 Old 07-05-2014, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post
Many people still think 5 speakers are far too many. They get soundbars and a 4" subwoofer. o_O
And many of those same people probably at some point thought that their TV speakers would always be all they wanted.
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post #354 of 392 Old 07-05-2014, 04:20 PM
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I like this comment about Dawn of the Planet of the Apes in Dolby Atmos...

Basically, what I'm starting to learn about Atmos, and numerous other surround formats, is the more you push things -- the more croweded individual moments become -- the less it really matters. With loud moments and auditory overload, with lots of guns and explosions, it's harder to tell the difference between 5.1 and 7.1 and Atmos

But when the scene itself is tame... When there are small moments in the rain... When there are little world-building details... When there are a hundred apes all around us, each calling out at different times... That's when Atmos shows its true potential because it fades away into an invisible, life-like quality...

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/sh...entation/16236
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post #355 of 392 Old 07-09-2014, 08:39 AM
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What about the ceiling?

You are correct. Using top-mounted "height" speakers relies on the ceiling being more or less flat, at a reasonable height, and having a reasonable amount of reflectivity and diffusion. If you have a huge trap on your ceiling, then all the sound coming from those height drivers will disappear into it... If your ceiling is sloped, or some odd sort of vaulted shape, or not all the same height, then the reflections will bounce around unpredictably (which you may or may not be able to compensate for or avoid with careful speaker placement and aiming).

If you have any of those situations to extreme, then you are going to need real speakers up there to get a decent result.

Personally, I would suggest that it is unlikely that you will ever get a really good result with bounce speakers - they are intended for people who really want Atmos, but really DON'T want to add physical ceiling speakers.

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I have a question about the new Pioneer speakers. It seems that they have built in drivers, or even add on modules that are on top of or placed on your front speakers to radiate the sound up to give the ATMOS effect right? They seem to rely on reflecting off of the ceiling surface. What happens if there are room treatments on the ceiling or someone insulated their ceiling to be one big bass trap. Won't that take away the advantage of using that particular method of getting ATMOS into the room leaving the more conventional way of just putting more speakers in the room. I mean, wouldn't the treatments on the ceiling absorb the very sound you are getting from those top firing speakers? If I am wrong, please correct me.

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post #356 of 392 Old 07-15-2014, 04:26 PM
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Very few movies deserve a repurchase for atmos...

Some marvel titles like avengers or capt II perhaps

Have they announed any 20+ channel units yet?
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post #357 of 392 Old 07-15-2014, 04:52 PM
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Blu-ray movies embedded with "directional objects" (Dolby Atmos) a la (similar encoding to) FOX Blu-ray movies with D-BOX?
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post #358 of 392 Old 07-15-2014, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TitusTroy View Post
I like this comment about Dawn of the Planet of the Apes in Dolby Atmos...

Basically, what I'm starting to learn about Atmos, and numerous other surround formats, is the more you push things -- the more croweded individual moments become -- the less it really matters. With loud moments and auditory overload, with lots of guns and explosions, it's harder to tell the difference between 5.1 and 7.1 and Atmos

But when the scene itself is tame...
When there are small moments in the rain... When there are little world-building details... When there are a hundred apes all around us, each calling out at different times... That's when Atmos shows its true potential because it fades away into an invisible, life-like quality...

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/sh...entation/16236
I think that I want it.
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post #359 of 392 Old 07-15-2014, 05:32 PM
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I asking the following questions in the "Dolby Atmos Comes Home" thread in the AVS Forum Podcasts forum but didn't receive a response yet. Thought I would ask here too...

I have two questions:

1. If I were to use the top-firing speakers to emulate the ceiling speakers, do all the speakers (mains and surrounds) have to be at or around ear-level for the top-firing speakers to work?

2. Are the top-firing speakers specially designed for Atmos ceiling speaker emulation or can I use any other speaker and position it on top of the main and surround speakers and aim it towards the ceiling?
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post #360 of 392 Old 07-15-2014, 05:35 PM
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Those who are excited about Atmos, have you actually heard an Atmos setup in a theater? I've never had the pleasure..
I have, many times, and it's well worth getting excited about. I've also heard demos of the home system, and it's also very exciting.

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