Dolby Atmos is Coming to Blu-ray - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 411 Old 06-23-2014, 01:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
it's well know that BD runs in problem thanks to live streaming.

a lot of people don't like the disc anymore and use streaming services. this could be a real problem for Atmos. as it looks like it needs bitstreaming and most likely needs a really high bandwidth.
According to Dolby, there will be streaming content as well as TV shows broadcast with Atmos. Probably with more compression than on Blu-ray, but that's the word...

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post #62 of 411 Old 06-23-2014, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by HockeyoAJB View Post
Has there been any indication that 12 discrete "channels" (7.1.4 or 9.1.2) is intended to be the max limit for the foreseeable future in the home environment or is this just a temporary limitation brought on by the processing capabilities and number of amps/pre-outs used in current receivers?
I think Dolby just wanted to make it easier for manufacturers to transition over to Atmos, so they limited the max number of outputs to what is already on current receivers (11.2). Does anyone truly believe that consumer Atmos will be frozen at 7.1.4 forever?

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post #63 of 411 Old 06-23-2014, 01:41 PM
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I think Dolby just wanted to make it easier for manufacturers to transition over to Atmos, so they limited the max number of outputs to what is already on current receivers (11.2). Does anyone truly believe that consumer Atmos will be frozen at 7.1.4 forever?

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post #64 of 411 Old 06-23-2014, 01:42 PM
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Anyone besides Scott.

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post #65 of 411 Old 06-23-2014, 02:00 PM
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Well, now you have reason to rejoice because Blu-ray has something new to offer. I bet you'll really see an uptick in sales of Blu-rays when everyone goes out and buys a new thousand-dollar AVR and installs 11+ speakers to hear the difference. Of course, Atmos will also be included with streaming content—it's a boon for discs and streaming. In fact, it should go a long way towards addressing the concerns of AV enthusiasts who feel that high-bitrate streaming is close to Blu-ray in terms of picture quality, but falls short in the audio department. Or, at least I hope it does...
I actually have no interest in Atmos and am thrilled with my (Chad B) pro-calibrated Audyssey 7.1 Denon X3000 set-up, but found your posting of this announcement a bit ironic given your very dire predictions and overall hatred of Blu-ray.

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post #66 of 411 Old 06-23-2014, 02:07 PM
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According to Dolby, there will be streaming content as well as TV shows broadcast with Atmos. Probably with more compression than on Blu-ray, but that's the word...
did they said when?
i fear the first DD Atmos Shows are "master with Atmos" at least for TV.
or are they using broadcast only for Atmos user and how are they putting the Atmos mixing informations in there is no Tv braodcast standt yet or not? you can't simply decode audio streams for Atmos and play them back as they are. and a TV can mix it to "right" stereo because it doesn't know what atmos is.
they may use predefined mapping for 6 channel input without special infos.

what i mean with bandwidth is that a 2d BD is hard capped at 48 mbit for all streams! and the fact internet is not unlimited fast for most user on earth.

Atmos is shouldn't be codec limited it just takes decoded audio streams and special informations as input.
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post #67 of 411 Old 06-23-2014, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
I actually have no interest in Atmos and am thrilled with my (Chad B) pro-calibrated Audyssey 7.1 Denon X3000 set-up, but found your posting of this announcement a bit ironic given your very dire predictions and overall hatred of Blu-ray.
on what point it's not like Atmos is limited to BD. so if he hates BD it has nothing to do with Atmos.
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post #68 of 411 Old 06-23-2014, 02:17 PM
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Atmos, seems like the next logical step but personally I am still at 5.1, I have the ability to do 7.1 with all the receivers I have but don't really care too, unless I have a huge enough room to enjoy it. In this day and age with a lot of people using one stop shop boxes just too improve TV set audio not sure if pushing the envelope on more speakers isn't going to fly with most consumers. I welcome it, but just like they have over simplified and dummied down CDs to MP3s and downloads we have now lost quality and I see the same thing happen with HT systems. Just an opinion of course.
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post #69 of 411 Old 06-23-2014, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyhuhn
----------------------------------------------------------
it's well know that BD runs in problem thanks to live streaming.

a lot of people don't like the disc anymore and use streaming services. this could be a real problem for Atmos. as it looks like it needs bitstreaming and most likely needs a really high bandwidth.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
According to Dolby, there will be streaming content as well as TV shows broadcast with Atmos. Probably with more compression than on Blu-ray, but that's the word...
The bandwidth required for audio is tiny compared to what is required for video. So, I don't see the bandwidth as being an issue for streaming or broadcasting Dolby Atmos soundtracks. What is more likely to be an issue for playing back streamed or broadcast Dolby Atmos sound tracks is the capability (or lack thereof) of existing streaming devices to recognize and output a Dolby Atmos soundtrack. It sounds like, for existing blu-ray players, they were able to squeeze 12 "channels" worth of information down a pipe that was designed for 8 discrete channels of audio. Will they be able to squeeze 12 "channels" worth of information down a pipe that was designed for 6 discrete channels of audio (as is the case for most streaming devices)? My guess (and this is only a guess) is that those who use Blu-Ray players which can handle TrueHD & DTS-HD MA to stream, will be able to stream Dolby Atmos soundtracks without upgrading their player. But, those who use dedicated streaming devices or the built-in streaming apps in their "smart" TV's will likely have to upgrade or switch to a different streaming device to be able to do so. This would be in addition to needing to upgrade the AVR/pre-pro. I hope I am wrong on this as I just upgraded my DirecTV receiver to a Genie (for free) and I only qualify for a free upgrade every two years. If they start broadcasting shows/movies with Dolby Atmos soundtracks in the coming year then I will have to wait a while before I will be able to take advantage of it.

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post #70 of 411 Old 06-23-2014, 02:25 PM
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Well now, there goes the streaming movies all shot to hell. My issue was lossless 5.1/7.1 but now, forget it! I feel sorry for those who cashed in the BD collection. Or, buy them all again! 1st
VHS, then DVD then BD now BD with Atmos. Not meant to be rude! But how many times will you buy the house?
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post #71 of 411 Old 06-23-2014, 02:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by quad4.0 View Post
Well now, there goes the streaming movies all shot to hell. My issue was lossless 5.1/7.1 but now, forget it! I feel sorry for those who cashed in the BD collection. Or, buy them all again! 1st
VHS, then DVD then BD now BD with Atmos. Not meant to be rude! But how many times will you buy the house?
How's that? You don't know how Atmos will sound with streaming content, and my guess is it'll be UHD/4K streaming that has it.

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post #72 of 411 Old 06-23-2014, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by quad4.0 View Post
Well now, there goes the streaming movies all shot to hell. My issue was lossless 5.1/7.1 but now, forget it! I feel sorry for those who cashed in the BD collection. Or, buy them all again! 1st
VHS, then DVD then BD now BD with Atmos. Not meant to be rude! But how many times will you buy the house?
Who says you have too buy them all over again... lol I won't unless the sound track is a must have for some reason or another. If they come up with the 4K player and content along with Atoms then maybe then I will re-buy some movies.
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post #73 of 411 Old 06-23-2014, 02:40 PM
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Link to Dolby Atmos speaker location recommendations or spec?

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post #74 of 411 Old 06-23-2014, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by HockeyoAJB View Post
Will they be able to squeeze 12 "channels" worth of information down a pipe that was designed for 6 discrete channels of audio (as is the case for most streaming devices)?
Depends on the efficiency of the compression codec. DD+ arrived a decade after DD, during which time research into perceptual coding continued on, allowing DD+ to give better fidelity at lower bitrates than DD (much the way the relatively newer AAC sounds better at 286kbps than older MP3 at 320kbps).

So if you pick an efficient compression codec, prioritize the most important objects, there should be no reason that a streaming service that is supposedly transmitting 'House of Cards' in "4K" shouldn't have the bandwidth to slip an Atmos-encoded DD track into the bitstream.
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post #75 of 411 Old 06-23-2014, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by HockeyoAJB View Post
The bandwidth required for audio is tiny compared to what is required for video. So, I don't see the bandwidth as being an issue for streaming or broadcasting Dolby Atmos soundtracks. What is more likely to be an issue for playing back streamed or broadcast Dolby Atmos sound tracks is the capability (or lack thereof) of existing streaming devices to recognize and output a Dolby Atmos soundtrack. It sounds like, for existing blu-ray players, they were able to squeeze 12 "channels" worth of information down a pipe that was designed for 8 discrete channels of audio. Will they be able to squeeze 12 "channels" worth of information down a pipe that was designed for 6 discrete channels of audio (as is the case for most streaming devices)? My guess (and this is only a guess) is that those who use Blu-Ray players which can handle TrueHD & DTS-HD MA to stream, will be able to stream Dolby Atmos soundtracks without upgrading their player. But, those who use dedicated streaming devices or the built-in streaming apps in their "smart" TV's will likely have to upgrade or switch to a different streaming device to be able to do so. This would be in addition to needing to upgrade the AVR/pre-pro. I hope I am wrong on this as I just upgraded my DirecTV receiver to a Genie (for free) and I only qualify for a free upgrade every two years. If they start broadcasting shows/movies with Dolby Atmos soundtracks in the coming year then I will have to wait a while before I will be able to take advantage of it.
of course they can stream 12 channel with 128/192 kbit aac/ac3 this is quite big already for a stream. but with Atmos you have to do a lot of Math with these data. lossless 48khz 24 bit audio is for a lot of people an over kill but this is not an over kill for post processing! i doubt doing dd Atmos without 24 bit is a good idea and high khz doesn't harm in the processing too.

and now do the math with 12 lossless 48 khz/24 bit streams ouch. and on a BD DD TrueHD will/is be capped at ~18 mbit so only 30 mbit for video and alternative audio streams (non Atmos)...

DTS HD MA can go up to ~25 mbit so maybe they can do DD TrueHD with that too the original limited was about 18 mbit.
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post #76 of 411 Old 06-23-2014, 02:58 PM
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Depends on the efficiency of the compression codec. DD+ arrived a decade after DD, during which time research into perceptual coding continued on, allowing DD+ to give better fidelity at lower bitrates than DD (much the way the relatively newer AAC sounds better at 286kbps than older MP3 at 320kbps).

So if you pick an efficient compression codec, prioritize the most important objects, there should be no reason that a streaming service that is supposedly transmitting 'House of Cards' in "4K" shouldn't have the bandwidth to slip an Atmos-encoded DD track into the bitstream.
Agree. However, my concern isn't with the streaming services capabilities or the internet bandwidth but with the ability of current streaming devices (Roku, AppleTV, smart TV, etc.) to recognize that the connected AVR is capable of decoding a Dolby Atmos soundtrack and then tell the streaming provider to send it the Dolby Atmos soundtrack rather than the plain old DD 5.1 version.
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post #77 of 411 Old 06-23-2014, 03:04 PM
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Dang! I just got a new Denon 4520 and Oppo BD103D. So if this can't be solved via firmware update like you say then I will not have Atmos for awhile
We should get T-shirts made or something :-P
Just got my 4520 on Wednesday and have just gotten to where I think its getting dialed in.

Tech wise it's been batshit crazy few months, a sony hw50 just before crishtmas (merry Xmas to me :-D ) a oppo 103d after new years, and now the 4520.

Guess I am stuck in fullhd for a while yet, but having seen the sony vw1000 at an enthusiast home viewing I am very happy with this setup, now don't get me wrong the vw1000 was leagues ahead, but those can get quite small compared to the cost.

As far I am concerned I can happily wait hopefully 5 years or so while all the first gen kinks get worked out and we see where the industry goes.
Maybe if I just wish hard enough and click my heals three times I could get an affordable 80" OLED.

I figures I could either get the last and better of the fullhd era or first generation uhd at an even greater cost and lower lifespan.
Granted I won't have the lasted for a while but I honestly think I can live with that :-)
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post #78 of 411 Old 06-23-2014, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by HockeyoAJB View Post
...my concern isn't with the streaming services capabilities or the internet bandwidth but with the ability of current streaming devices (Roku, AppleTV, smart TV, etc.) to recognize that the connected AVR is capable of decoding a Dolby Atmos soundtrack and then tell the streaming provider to send it the Dolby Atmos soundtrack rather than the plain old DD 5.1 version.
Ah, got it. I'm guessing that Atmos soundtracks for home video will have a core + extension structure, for backwards compatibility. The core will be a 5.1 or 7.1 channel-based mix containing all the sounds. The extension packet will have the objects.

Older AVRs won't recognize the extension packet and just play back the channel-based core. Newer, object-aware AVRs will decode the objects, slice those sounds out of the channel-based mix, and render those sounds where intended.

Since Atmos mixes are a collection of sounds, in channels and as objects, they can be compressed like any audio is. For streaming, the audio will be compressed using DD or DD+ (more likely the latter). Your Roku will see a DD+ stream, like it does now, and pass it on to your AVR.

Your current AVR will decode the DD+ 5.1 mix. If you get one of the newer AVRs, it will decode the entire Atmos soundtrack.

The Roku has no idea what's in the bitstream; it just recognizes the DD or DD+ flag and passes the data through. It has no idea whether your AVR will decode only the channel-based core or fully decode the core+extension Atmos mix.

Same with my 7 year old BD player. It will see a TrueHD bitstream and pass it through, like it always does. It will have no idea that there is an Atmos soundtrack inside that TrueHD wrapper.

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post #79 of 411 Old 06-23-2014, 03:44 PM
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Ah, got it. I'm guessing that Atmos soundtracks for home video will have a core + extension structure, for backwards compatibility. The core will be a 5.1 or 7.1 channel-based mix containing all the sounds. The extension packet will have the objects.

Older AVRs won't recognize the extension packet and just play back the channel-based core. Newer, object-aware AVRs will decode the objects, slice those sounds out of the channel-based mix, and render those sounds where intended.

Since Atmos mixes are a collection of sounds, in channels and as objects, they can be compressed like any audio is. For streaming, the audio will be compressed using DD or DD+ (more likely the latter). Your Roku will see a DD+ stream, like it does now, and pass it on to your AVR.

Your current AVR will decode the DD+ 5.1 mix. If you get one of the newer AVRs, it will decode the entire Atmos soundtrack.

The Roku has no idea what's in the bitstream; it just recognizes the DD or DD+ flag and passes the data through. It has no idea whether your AVR will decode only the channel-based core or fully decode the core+extension Atmos mix.

Same with my 7 year old BD player. It will see a TrueHD bitstream and pass it through, like it always does. It will have no idea that there is an Atmos soundtrack inside that TrueHD wrapper.
I was thinking that they might be able to do something along the lines of what you described, I just wasn't sure how easy it would be for the new AVR's to accurately remove sounds from the channel-based mix if they are present in the object-based portion of the mix. As you mentioned, the sound has to be in the channel based mix for older AVR's or that sound would be completely missing when played back on them. And, if it doesn't remove that sound from the channel-based portion of the mix when played back with an Atmos-capable receiver then it would interfere with the 3D effect.
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post #80 of 411 Old 06-23-2014, 04:40 PM
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Well now, there goes the streaming movies all shot to hell. My issue was lossless 5.1/7.1 but now, forget it! I feel sorry for those who cashed in the BD collection. Or, buy them all again! 1st
VHS, then DVD then BD now BD with Atmos. Not meant to be rude! But how many times will you buy the house?
To me it's all hype unless you have a mansion, the average home don't need it.
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post #81 of 411 Old 06-23-2014, 04:50 PM
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I just wasn't sure how easy it would be for the new AVR's to accurately remove sounds from the channel-based mix if they are present in the object-based portion of the mix.
The technique has been used for so long that it is pretty trivial at this point.

The old DTS 6.1 tracks on DVD worked the same way. The discrete surround-back channel was in an extension packet, but that information was duplicated in the L/R surround channels for backwards compatibility.

Older AVRs either played back the 5.1 core or matrix extracted the surround-back info. Newer AVRs recognized the extension packet, sent those sounds to the rear speakers, cancelled that info from the side speakers.

Each object is digital data. During playback, you simply remove the copy of that data from the channel-based downmix, leaving behind an Atmos channel-bed.

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post #82 of 411 Old 06-23-2014, 05:07 PM
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I bet Godzilla is the first!
Nah, it'll be Michael Jordan's Space Jam. lol
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post #83 of 411 Old 06-23-2014, 05:10 PM
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Nah, it'll be Michael Jordan's Space Jam. lol
Die Hard.

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post #84 of 411 Old 06-23-2014, 05:29 PM
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Die Hard.
I heard they were going redo a bunch of Charlie Chaplin's films in Dolby Atmos. The beauty is you don't even need a new AVR for it.
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post #85 of 411 Old 06-23-2014, 06:38 PM
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Die Hard.
I was thinking more like that Todd-AO copy of Oklahoma!

That 30fps was just disinformation for what was really the first ever Atmos BD.



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post #86 of 411 Old 06-23-2014, 06:39 PM
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UHD/4K now Dolby Atmos. Lot of things to spin off all at once. Square trade will be going out of business.
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post #87 of 411 Old 06-23-2014, 07:32 PM
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I think Dolby just wanted to make it easier for manufacturers to transition over to Atmos, so they limited the max number of outputs to what is already on current receivers (11.2). Does anyone truly believe that consumer Atmos will be frozen at 7.1.4 forever?
and if I'm reading this right, it seems like the sky is the limit really. if the information programmed in the source is an x,y,z location, and not discrete channels, then the only thing needed to go from 7.1.4 to 9.1.4 (or any number of speakers really) is the speakers, amps, and a processor to organize it all.


I definitely like this idea of 'scalable' surround sound. it's nice to know that no matter what my speaker arrangement is, I've got the best source for it.
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post #88 of 411 Old 06-23-2014, 07:32 PM
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No interest for my home use at present (no easy way to mount ceiling speakers in my drop ceiling and I can barely squeeze in a 5.1 configuration anyway) but if I ever get to take over the larger portion of the basement (or we move to a new house), perhaps this will be of interest. I am intrigued by the technology behind it though, so its move into the home cinema market is a good idea.
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post #89 of 411 Old 06-23-2014, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Chise View Post
To me it's all hype unless you have a mansion, the average home don't need it.
I kind of felt that way when we went from 5.1 to 7.1. 'my room isn't big enough, I don't need more rear channels', and in fact I'm still running a 5.1 set up. but this isn't adding trivial detail to the same ol surround sound, it's adding the 3rd dimension. I imagine even just ONE overhead speaker would be more noticeable than going from 5.1 to 11.1.


so I'm pretty happy I didn't cave to my urges to upgrade my avr. now I have a goal to aim for, and a reason to be a little more patient. I definitely want atmos, and whatever DTS UHD has as an answer in my next avr.


besides, I just hate the fact that there's something at the theatres I don't have at home, haha.
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post #90 of 411 Old 06-23-2014, 07:41 PM
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No interest for my home use at present (no easy way to mount ceiling speakers in my drop ceiling and I can barely squeeze in a 5.1 configuration anyway) but if I ever get to take over the larger portion of the basement (or we move to a new house), perhaps this will be of interest. I am intrigued by the technology behind it though, so its move into the home cinema market is a good idea.
hmm, I would have thought the drop ceiling would make installation so much easier. it was a big pain running wires to install the in ceilings I have in my basement, with a stucco finished drywall ceiling. I put a couple in the bathroom as well, with a drop ceiling and it was a breeze.


but regardless, there should be options for speakers that sit on top of your front speakers and reflect the sound off the roof. so if you wanted it, room size shouldn't be a restriction.
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