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post #181 of 411 Old 06-25-2014, 01:37 PM
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I'm quite convinced that DTS NEO:X from this point on will support rear heights.


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post #182 of 411 Old 06-25-2014, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
I wouldn't think so, unless the current positions aren't appropriate.

Audyssey answered my question regarding Heights and in-ceiling speakers:

Hello,
The best and most noticeable results will be with speakers that are separated as much as possible from the front speakers (using height as distance). As all your speaker are in the ceiling, there will not be much separation and the addition will be a lot less noticeable then the addition of wides.



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post #183 of 411 Old 06-25-2014, 03:25 PM
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so Dolby Atmos is another format in addition to DTS Master Audio and Dolby TrueHD?...are there discernible differences in audio quality with Atmos?
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post #184 of 411 Old 06-25-2014, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by TitusTroy View Post
so Dolby Atmos is another format in addition to DTS Master Audio and Dolby TrueHD?...are there discernible differences in audio quality with Atmos?
As it seems the Atmos content will be delivered through TrueHD. I'm not sure that has really been clarified really.


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post #185 of 411 Old 06-25-2014, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
As it seems the Atmos content will be delivered through TrueHD. I'm not sure that has really been clarified really.
And that's the rub. Outside of whatever surviving boutique store we have in Denver, I don't know where one would get a proper Dolby Atmos demo in these parts to see if it was more than just hype.

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post #186 of 411 Old 06-25-2014, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by TitusTroy View Post
so Dolby Atmos is another format in addition to DTS Master Audio and Dolby TrueHD?...are there discernible differences in audio quality with Atmos?
The quality should be the same. Atmos is about improving immersion, not quality.
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post #187 of 411 Old 06-25-2014, 04:03 PM
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Well that was helpful.
I hope you seperates with nine or eleven channel amp especially for you going to adding more speakers
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post #188 of 411 Old 06-25-2014, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by HockeyoAJB View Post
The quality should be the same. Atmos is about improving immersion, not quality.

so 5.1 Dolby Atmos vs 7.1 DTS MA-- the 7.1 system would be better...but 5.1 Atmos vs 5.1 DTS MA and there would be little to no difference?
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post #189 of 411 Old 06-25-2014, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by TitusTroy View Post
so 5.1 Dolby Atmos vs 7.1 DTS MA-- the 7.1 system would be better...but 5.1 Atmos vs 5.1 DTS MA and there would be little to no difference?
Atmos would be at least 7.1 since that's it's core bed (that or 9.1). There is no 5.1 Atmos. It's all in the speaker configuration in your room. If you only have 5.1 with no tops, then I don't see much of a benefit between Atmos and regular surround.

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post #190 of 411 Old 06-25-2014, 06:01 PM
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I hope you seperates with nine or eleven channel amp especially for you going to adding more speakers
lolwut?


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post #191 of 411 Old 06-25-2014, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
Atmos would be at least 7.1 since that's it's core bed (that or 9.1). There is no 5.1 Atmos. It's all in the speaker configuration in your room. If you only have 5.1 with no tops, then I don't see much of a benefit between Atmos and regular surround.
Technically there is no 7.1 or 9.1 Atmos either, since the top channels are counted separately from the basic channel bed speakers. Atmos requires at least two top channels and a channel bed of at least 5 speakers. The Onkyo receivers that feature Dolby Atmos support the following configurations...

5.1.2 (5 discrete channels for the channel bed, 1 discrete LFE channel, and 2 discrete top channels)
5.1.4 (5 discrete channels for the channel bed, 1 discrete LFE channel, and 4 discrete top channels)
7.1.2 (7 discrete channels for the channel bed, 1 discrete LFE channel, and 2 discrete top channels)
7.1.4 (7 discrete channels for the channel bed, 1 discrete LFE channel, and 4 discrete top channels)
9.1.2 (9 discrete channels for the channel bed, 1 discrete LFE channel, and 2 discrete top channels)

Keep in mind that the above are channel configurations only, not soundtrack formats. AFAIK, all Dolby Atmos soundtracks can actually contain information for more than 12 discrete channels. The cinema version can support up to 64 discrete channels.

If you do not use any top channels then you aren't really utilizing the object-based capabilities of Atmos. I suspect that if your receiver does not detect top channels (or if you manually turn them off in the settings) then it will just default to the standard Dolby TrueHD soundtrack, utilizing whatever speakers you do have connected.

If the intent of the original question was to ask what sounds better between a 5.1.2 setup and a standard 7.1 setup when playing a movie with a Dolby Atmos soundtrack then the answer would usually be the 5.1.2 setup. Again, this isn't a question of quality since the quality of the sound coming from each speaker would be identical. It's a question of immersion. The lack of the rear surrounds in the 5.1.2 setup can be compensated for to an extent, by playing a sound from both the left and right surround speaker to give you the impression that the sound is coming from behind. The effect might not be as convincing as it would if you actually had rear surrounds, but it can be simulated. On the other hand, a standard 7.1 setup cannot simulate the effect of sound coming from above at all.
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post #192 of 411 Old 06-25-2014, 07:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyoAJB View Post
Technically there is no 7.1 or 9.1 Atmos either, since the top channels are counted separately from the basic channel bed speakers. Atmos requires at least two top channels and a channel bed of at least 5 speakers. The Onkyo receivers that feature Dolby Atmos support the following configurations...

5.1.2 (5 discrete channels for the channel bed, 1 discrete LFE channel, and 2 discrete top channels)
5.1.4 (5 discrete channels for the channel bed, 1 discrete LFE channel, and 4 discrete top channels)
7.1.2 (7 discrete channels for the channel bed, 1 discrete LFE channel, and 2 discrete top channels)
7.1.4 (7 discrete channels for the channel bed, 1 discrete LFE channel, and 4 discrete top channels)
9.1.2 (9 discrete channels for the channel bed, 1 discrete LFE channel, and 2 discrete top channels)

Keep in mind that the above are channel configurations only, not soundtrack formats. AFAIK, all Dolby Atmos soundtracks can actually contain information for more than 12 discrete channels. The cinema version can support up to 64 discrete channels.

If you do not use any top channels then you aren't really utilizing the object-based capabilities of Atmos. I suspect that if your receiver does not detect top channels (or if you manually turn them off in the settings) then it will just default to the standard Dolby TrueHD soundtrack, utilizing whatever speakers you do have connected.

If the intent of the original question was to ask what sounds better between a 5.1.2 setup and a standard 7.1 setup when playing a movie with a Dolby Atmos soundtrack then the answer would usually be the 5.1.2 setup. Again, this isn't a question of quality since the quality of the sound coming from each speaker would be identical. It's a question of immersion. The lack of the rear surrounds in the 5.1.2 setup can be compensated for to an extent, by playing a sound from both the left and right surround speaker to give you the impression that the sound is coming from behind. The effect might not be as convincing as it would if you actually had rear surrounds, but it can be simulated. On the other hand, a standard 7.1 setup cannot simulate the effect of sound coming from above at all.
If you don't mind me asking... where are you getting this information that consumer Dolby Atmos can handle more than 12 discrete channels (as in object metadata, I'm assuming)?

But if there are only a few maneuverable objects compared to the 128 in the commercial version, aren't you then quite limited in the 3D effect you can create? It would just be a few items at a time that can get the full effect. The rest have to stay buried in the channel beds. "Gravity," for instance, would have a very paired down sonic experience from the one you get in the theater... that was just killer in terms of the use of 3D audio space, but it needed a lot of simultaneous objects to pull it off.

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post #193 of 411 Old 06-25-2014, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by TitusTroy View Post
so Dolby Atmos is another format in addition to DTS Master Audio and Dolby TrueHD?
No. Atmos is a method of mixing that allows sounds to be placed at x,y,z coordinates in 3D space as well as in channels. DTS-MA and TrueHD are lossless data packing algorithms (like zipping a file to save space). Atmos mixes can be stored as DTS-MA or TrueHD.

Your question is like asking if 5.1 is another format in addition to DD and DTS. 5.1 is the number of channels in a soundtrack. DD and DTS are lossy compression algorithms (like MP3). 5.1 soundtracks can be stored as DD or DTS.
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post #194 of 411 Old 06-25-2014, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by HockeyoAJB View Post
If you do not use any top channels then you aren't really utilizing the object-based capabilities of Atmos. I suspect that if your receiver does not detect top channels (or if you manually turn them off in the settings) then it will just default to the standard Dolby TrueHD soundtrack, utilizing whatever speakers you do have connected.

I was under the impression that a major 'added value' feature of object based audio is enhanced dialog management through user-interactive static and|or dynamic objects (together with the ability to separately manage the volume of, e.g., a narrative for the visually impaired track). That feature is usable with any speaker configuration including 2.0 if one has only a TV set.
_

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post #195 of 411 Old 06-25-2014, 08:16 PM
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I was under the impression that a major 'added value' feature of object based audio is enhanced dialog management through user-interactive static and|or dynamic objects (together with the ability to separately manage the volume of, e.g., a narrative for the visually impaired track). That feature is usable with any speaker configuration including 2.0 if one has only a TV set.
_
That feature is way down there on my list of features. Immersive 3D sound that blows away regular surround formats is, however, extremely high.

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post #196 of 411 Old 06-25-2014, 08:34 PM
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I have to wonder if the Atmos stream from Blu-ray will be compatible with the commercial cinema Atmos decoder. That might be workable for people who want more than 9.1.2 in their homes.
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post #197 of 411 Old 06-25-2014, 10:10 PM
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Wow ... so I just bought a Denon W900 S-series receiver for 600 bones. Does this announcement make my new purchase obsolete? Just upgraded from a HTIB ... so I'm finally enjoying decent 5.1 surround sound.
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post #198 of 411 Old 06-25-2014, 10:30 PM
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I have to wonder if the Atmos stream from Blu-ray will be compatible with the commercial cinema Atmos decoder. That might be workable for people who want more than 9.1.2 in their homes.
I doubt it. The file size would be too much for a Blu-ray with video and the codec used is different than Atmos contained in a commercial DCP structure for the cinema. At-home Atmos is most definitely going to be a highly stripped down version anyway.

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post #199 of 411 Old 06-25-2014, 10:33 PM
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Wow ... so I just bought a Denon W900 S-series receiver for 600 bones. Does this announcement make my new purchase obsolete? Just upgraded from a HTIB ... so I'm finally enjoying decent 5.1 surround sound.
If you think you can handle getting more matching speakers and your room can take it, you could box your receiver up and return it and then save up for an Atmos capable receiver.

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post #200 of 411 Old 06-25-2014, 11:43 PM
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All right guys, if Atmos @ home really uses a Dolby True HD Bitstream, as indicated in this thread before, and the Blu-ray specs allow a maximum of 8 discrete channels (7.1 that is) for that - how could the promised 11.1 (or 7.1.4) channels be discrete?
Either the spec has been changed (which would mean all current BD-players are not Atmos-compatible, which Dolby denies, which then again would impossible) or the channels are NOT really discrete, but rather matrixed - which would make atmos @ home just another "ProLogicIIz" or "DTS NeoX" variant.
Another proof for that would be that some last-gen AVRs will be getting Atmos software upgrades, which wouldn't really be possible with an "all-new", "all-so-different" system.
So what's the real technical deal here?

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post #201 of 411 Old 06-25-2014, 11:56 PM
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All right guys, if Atmos @ home really uses a Dolby True HD Bitstream, as indicated in this thread before, and the Blu-ray specs allow a maximum of 8 discrete channels (7.1 that is) for that - how could the promised 11.1 (or 7.1.4) channels be discrete?
Either the spec has been changed (which would mean all current BD-players are not Atmos-compatible, which Dolby denies, which then again would impossible) or the channels are NOT really discrete, but rather matrixed - which would make atmos @ home just another "ProLogicIIz" or "DTS NeoX" variant.
Another proof for that would be that some last-gen AVRs will be getting Atmos software upgrades, which wouldn't really be possible with an "all-new", "all-so-different" system.
So what's the real technical deal here?

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Blu-ray specs allow for 8 discrete PCM channels, Atmos will be bitstreamed to the receiver, not sent by PCM.
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post #202 of 411 Old 06-26-2014, 12:58 AM
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Originally Posted by WayneJoy View Post
I have to wonder if the Atmos stream from Blu-ray will be compatible with the commercial cinema Atmos decoder.
The commercial version of Atmos is delivered as uncompressed PCM. The consumer version on Blu-ray will be packed using lossless encoding.

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post #203 of 411 Old 06-26-2014, 01:59 AM
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Blu-ray specs allow for 8 discrete PCM channels, Atmos will be bitstreamed to the receiver, not sent by PCM.
So this means Atmos @ home is, in the end, discrete 9.1 to 11.1 Dolby True HD?
So I have a 7.1 PCM capable amplifier from Denon (AVC-A11XVA) and an Oppe BDP-103 doing the decoding and sending up to 7.1 discrete PCM channels to the Denon.
So if, on the forthcoming Blu-rays with Atmos track I select this - what will happen? Does the Oppo just pick the 7.1 channels suitable for him and ignore the rest or does it, as with 7.1 tracks on a 5.1 setup, reencode the information from the 4 missing speakers into those for the 7.1 setup?
If done properly, it should be this way, right?

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post #204 of 411 Old 06-26-2014, 05:32 AM
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The oppo will have to be set to bitstream if you want to hear the height information, if you decode in player it would probably play back some 5.1 or 7.1 "core" file.
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post #205 of 411 Old 06-26-2014, 06:29 AM
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Thumbs up

[QUOTE=Aaron Davis;25197081]http://www.twice.com/news/components...by-atmos/45748

"Onkyo became one of the first audio suppliers to announce plans to ship audio electronics components with built-in Dolby Atmos decoding. The first three Onkyo products, shipping in August, are the $1,699-suggested TX-NR1030 and $2,399 TX-NR3030 A/V receivers and the $2,499 PR-SC5530 preamp/surround processor. The company will also bring the technology into lower price points with a firmware update, targeted in September, to enable Dolby Atmos decoding by its midprice TX-NR636, TX-NR737 and TX-NR838 networked A/V receivers, which are already available at suggested retails of $699, $899 and $1,199, respectively. - See more at: http://www.twice.com/news/components...uf"[/QUOTE]


Great news for folks like me who just picked up a new Onkyo receiver (636) and were wondering about the timing of the announcement.
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post #206 of 411 Old 06-26-2014, 06:38 AM
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If you don't mind me asking... where are you getting this information that consumer Dolby Atmos can handle more than 12 discrete channels (as in object metadata, I'm assuming)?
I have no official source. I actually asked a similar question and a couple people, who have better connections than I do, hinted that it might be capable of more than 12 discrete channels and that the current 12 channel limit might only be a result of current receiver capabilities, related to keeping cost down. It was suggested that, in the future, receivers might be capable of processing and amplifying more than 12 discrete channels. AFAIK, the exact specifics of the implementation of Atmos on Blu-Ray aren't readily available, yet. I assume that the channel bed in this particular implementation is limited to a maximum of 9.1 discrete channels (the top channels are not part of the channel bed and only put out audio as dictated by the processing of the object-based portion of the soundtrack). I have no idea how many objects can be stored in the object-audio portion of the soundtrack. The number of channels used specifically for the object-based portion of the soundtrack is not dictated by the recording. It's dictated by the processor. The processor has to know how many speakers are in your setup so that it can render the audio to the proper # of channels. It also needs to know the locations of those speakers so that it can render the audio to the correct speaker channels.

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But if there are only a few maneuverable objects compared to the 128 in the commercial version, aren't you then quite limited in the 3D effect you can create? It would just be a few items at a time that can get the full effect. The rest have to stay buried in the channel beds. "Gravity," for instance, would have a very paired down sonic experience from the one you get in the theater... that was just killer in terms of the use of 3D audio space, but it needed a lot of simultaneous objects to pull it off.
The first generation of Dolby Atmos at home will be somewhat limited as compared to the cinema version, mostly due to the lesser number of discrete channels to which a home receiver/processor can render audio. Hypothetically, let's say that the Atmos soundtrack on Blu-Ray can store the information for up to 24 separate objects (just a guess since it happens to be double the number of discrete channels used in the home version which matches the ratio used in the cinema version of 128 objects to 64 discrete channels). Clearly it is possible to have more objects than channels, which means that in order to represent all of those objects at once, at least half of them must be rendered to the same channel as at least one other object. If all of the objects are in the same area then all of them would be rendered to the same channel(s) (i.e. the sounds of all objects would be combined and sent to the same channel(s), which feed the same speaker(s)). Assuming that the maximum number of objects actually used in the cinema soundtrack is greater than the number that can be stored on Blu-Ray and/or handled by the processor then I believe that you are correct. They would have to pair down the number of objects, which would likely mean moving those sounds to the channel-based portion of the soundtrack (a.k.a. channel bed) when the Blu-Ray version of the soundtrack is mixed in the studio.

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Dolby Atmos, until the new version of DTS... Then the need to upgrade to new AVRs. And industry sells more and better the profit.
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post #208 of 411 Old 06-26-2014, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
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As it seems the Atmos content will be delivered through TrueHD. I'm not sure that has really been clarified really.

so people with Atmos certified AVR's will have the choice between Dolby TrueHD and Atmos while everyone else will get downsampled to TrueHD?...so really Atmos is just the next generation of Dolby TrueHD?
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post #209 of 411 Old 06-26-2014, 01:58 PM
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so people with Atmos certified AVR's will have the choice between Dolby TrueHD and Atmos while everyone else will get downsampled to TrueHD?...so really Atmos is just the next generation of Dolby TrueHD?
Pretty much. I don't know if I'd really call it a choice between Dolby TrueHD and Atmos for those who have Atmos-compatible AVR's/pre-pro's (i.e. I don't think that the audio options in the Blu-Ray's on-disc menu will allow you to select one or the other). They could probably disable Atmos if, for some strange reason, they wanted to...either by some setting in the AVR/pre-pro or by having the Blu-Ray player do the decoding (assuming the Blu-Ray player can decode Dolby TrueHD).
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post #210 of 411 Old 06-26-2014, 02:02 PM
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Pretty much. I don't know if I'd really call it a choice between Dolby TrueHD and Atmos for those who have Atmos-compatible AVR's/pre-pro's (i.e. I don't think that the audio options in the Blu-Ray's on-disc menu will allow you to select one or the other). They could probably disable Atmos if, for some strange reason, they wanted to...either by some setting in the AVR/pre-pro or by having the Blu-Ray player do the decoding (assuming the Blu-Ray player can decode Dolby TrueHD).

so will DTS now try and create a newer version of DTS-HD MA?


or will Atmos finally become the standard surround format?...so no more having to choose between DTS and Dolby?
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