Dolby Atmos is Coming to Blu-ray - Page 8 - AVS Forum
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post #211 of 425 Old 06-26-2014, 02:05 PM
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post #212 of 425 Old 06-26-2014, 02:26 PM
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So the use of wide speakers in dts neo will not be used by Atmos? I have a 11.2 setup now and would basically only be adding 2 rear height speakers, but I wouldn't want to sacrifice the wides, they do fill in front /side surround space nicely. Maybe if Atmos won't then maybe DTS UHD would?!
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post #213 of 425 Old 06-26-2014, 02:28 PM
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[quote=jbug;25278010]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Davis View Post
http://www.twice.com/news/components...by-atmos/45748

"Onkyo became one of the first audio suppliers to announce plans to ship audio electronics components with built-in Dolby Atmos decoding. The first three Onkyo products, shipping in August, are the $1,699-suggested TX-NR1030 and $2,399 TX-NR3030 A/V receivers and the $2,499 PR-SC5530 preamp/surround processor. The company will also bring the technology into lower price points with a firmware update, targeted in September, to enable Dolby Atmos decoding by its midprice TX-NR636, TX-NR737 and TX-NR838 networked A/V receivers, which are already available at suggested retails of $699, $899 and $1,199, respectively. - See more at: http://www.twice.com/news/components...uf"[/QUOTE]


Great news for folks like me who just picked up a new Onkyo receiver (636) and were wondering about the timing of the announcement.
You better hope it don't run hot when using all those channels.
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post #214 of 425 Old 06-26-2014, 02:42 PM
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[quote=Chise;25290761]
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Originally Posted by jbug View Post
You better hope it don't run hot when using all those channels.
The 636 only has connections for up to 7.2 channels (at a time). I would have to assume that the 6th and 7th channels would be re-assignable as "Top" channels, so you would be running it in 5.1.2 mode for Atmos. I don't think it will have an overheating issue with only 7 internal amps.
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post #215 of 425 Old 06-26-2014, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlanzy View Post
So the use of wide speakers in dts neo will not be used by Atmos? I have a 11.2 setup now and would basically only be adding 2 rear height speakers, but I wouldn't want to sacrifice the wides, they do fill in front /side surround space nicely. Maybe if Atmos won't then maybe DTS UHD would?!
If you use the 9.1.2 channel setup for Atmos, you get discrete inputs for Front-Left, Front-Right, Center, Surround-Left, Surround-Right, Rear-Surround-Left, Rear-Surround-Right, Front-Wide-Left, Front-Wide-Right, Subwoofer, Top-Middle-Left, and Top-Middle-Right.

Note that Top-Middle-Left and Top-Middle-Right don't have to be in the ceiling. If you have Front-Left-High and Front-Right-High speakers installed and they are mounted high enough on the wall then you might be ok using them as the top channels. If not then you would just have to swap those out or keep them where they are and add two speakers to use as top channels w/ a speaker switch to select whether to use the heights or tops, depending on whether you are using NeoX or Atmos.
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post #216 of 425 Old 06-26-2014, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by TitusTroy View Post
...so really Atmos is just the next generation of Dolby TrueHD?
No.

Dolby Atmos is a mixing and rendering technology, where sounds can be placed at x,y,z coordinates in 3D space and are no longer limited to being placed in channels. Those pieces of sound are called objects.

Dolby TrueHD is a lossless data-packing algorithm, like zipping a file to save space.

Atmos is not the next generation of TrueHD (i.e., Atmos is not a new lossless compression codec).
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so will DTS now try and create a newer version of DTS-HD MA?
DTS has been working on their own object-based mixing and rendering technology. But that has nothing to do with their lossless compression technology (DTS-HD MA).

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post #217 of 425 Old 06-26-2014, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Atmos is not the next generation of TrueHD (i.e., Atmos is not a new lossless compression codec). DTS has been working on their own object-based mixing and rendering technology. But that has nothing to do with their lossless compression technology (DTS-HD MA).

Hey Sanjay

If you go to the other thread the one that is "Pioneer's Dolby Atmos-Compatible AVRs and Speakers"

I have posted the latest 2014 DTS interview explaining DTS's Multi-dimensional audio. Pay attention to the time spans I wrote on that video and see what DTS's spokesman says.

For me this will be widely acceptable by the masses and I feel it will be more common practice by the movie studios to integrate into homes. It simply is plug and play. It's not particularly channel-based.

Tell us what you think.

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post #218 of 425 Old 06-26-2014, 03:39 PM
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I was watching the Dolby Atmos video on the Onkyo youtube channel and at the very end they mention that, "Dolby Atmos will also bring new life to traditional channel based soundtracks, so you'll experience a better audio experience with or without a Dolby Atmos soundtrack."

I guess this means that the height speakers will be enabled even if a movie does not include an Atmos soundtrack!

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post #219 of 425 Old 06-26-2014, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bass excavator View Post
For me this will be widely acceptable by the masses and I feel it will be more common practice by the movie studios to integrate into homes.
Irrespective of company (Dolby or DTS), it is a matter of time before audio is no longer thought of in terms of channels, both for professional mixers and everyday consumers. I remember when Dolby Digital first showed up in expensive AV receivers. Lots of oohing and ahing. Now that same decoding is built into the cheapest TV sets. Same will happen with Atmos eventually.

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post #220 of 425 Old 06-26-2014, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlanzy View Post
So the use of wide speakers in dts neo will not be used by Atmos? I have a 11.2 setup now and would basically only be adding 2 rear height speakers, but I wouldn't want to sacrifice the wides, they do fill in front /side surround space nicely. Maybe if Atmos won't then maybe DTS UHD would?!
The fact that Atmos doesn't currently have a 9.1.4 layout may have something to do with the current DSP's and lack of horsepower to pull it off. So, you may not have to choose between the back heights and the front wides for much longer.

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post #221 of 425 Old 06-26-2014, 06:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Irrespective of company (Dolby or DTS), it is a matter of time before audio is no longer thought of in terms of channels, both for professional mixers and everyday consumers.
How can you not think in terms of channels? So long as home installations have a small number of speakers at fixed locations in the listening room, there will be channels. The output sent to a speaker at a fixed location is a channel. The object sound sources are portrayed as being at various places by apportioning the sounds of the object among the speakers available -- that is, sending the sounds over various channels, attenuated and timed appropriately.

Channels haven't disappeared, though it may become unstylish to speak of them.

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post #222 of 425 Old 06-26-2014, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
The fact that Atmos doesn't currently have a 9.1.4 layout may have something to do with the current DSP's and lack of horsepower to pull it off. So, you may not have to choose between the back heights and the front wides for much longer.
Quite possible. But one thing that has turned me off on the Onkyo and Pioneer receivers is that they max out with 11.2 (or 11.4 in onkyo's case) channels of preouts. The Onkyo even has one set labeled as "height 2/wide" (can't tell with Pioneer but I think it's the same). At least with the Denon and Marantz units, They have separate "height 2" and "wide" preouts (total of 13.2 even though 11.2 seems to be the max usage at a time with what we know currently), so at least there are more options with these. Not a fan of being obviously hamstrung from the get go. Especially since the MSRP of the Pioneer SC-89 is $3000.

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post #223 of 425 Old 06-26-2014, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by esappy View Post
Quite possible. But one thing that has turned me off on the Onkyo and Pioneer receivers is that they max out with 11.2 (or 11.4 in onkyo's case) channels of preouts. The Onkyo even has one set labeled as "height 2/wide" (can't tell with Pioneer but I think it's the same). At least with the Denon and Marantz units, They have separate "height 2" and "wide" preouts (total of 13.2 even though 11.2 seems to be the max usage at a time with what we know currently), so at least there are more options with these. Not a fan of being obviously hamstrung from the get go. Especially since the MSRP of the Pioneer SC-89 is $3000.
If enough people complain, maybe Dolby will convince their "partners" to put in better DSP's for full Atmos support and cough up at least more active pre-amp outputs. I don't think you'll see more mass market receivers with tons of built-in amps.

The industry as a whole needs to start producing more pre-amp processors rather than receivers. Scalable object audio screams this approach.

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post #224 of 425 Old 06-26-2014, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
How can you not think in terms of channels?
On the professional side, mixers will think in terms of where they want the sound in 3D space. On the consumers side, the only concern will be how many speakers they can accommodate. People on both sides won't be associating source channels with playback speakers. Like people don't think in terms of pixels when dealing with vector graphics.
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The output sent to a speaker at a fixed location is a channel.
When the left surround channel of a soundtrack is sent to 8 speakers, each at different fixed locations on the left side wall of a theatre, it doesn't suddenly become 8 surround channels. In the context of rendering objects to a consumer set-up, an output isn't necessarily a channel, since that "channel" might not have existed in the source material.
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post #225 of 425 Old 06-26-2014, 09:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee
The output sent to a speaker at a fixed location is a channel.



When the left surround channel of a soundtrack is sent to 8 speakers, each at different fixed locations on the left side wall of a theatre, it doesn't suddenly become 8 surround channels.
I don't think I implied that it does. And anyhow, I made it clear I was talking about home installations with a small number of speakers.

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post #226 of 425 Old 06-26-2014, 09:47 PM
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I don't think I implied that it does.
You said: "The output sent to a speaker at a fixed location is a channel." I was giving an example of when additional outputs are not additional channels.
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And anyhow, I made it clear I was talking about home installations with a small number of speakers.
Which is why I said:
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
In the context of rendering objects to a consumer set-up, an output isn't necessarily a channel, since that "channel" might not have existed in the source material.
You can have audio that is purely object oriented, where sounds have x,y,z coordinates. That can be rendered to as many or few speakers as you want. No channels involved. Like a vector graphic.
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post #227 of 425 Old 06-26-2014, 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
You can have audio that is purely object oriented, where sounds have x,y,z coordinates. That can be rendered to as many or few speakers as you want. No channels involved. Like a vector graphic.
You know, all this talk about xyz coordinates and vectors reminds me of Stargate for some strange reason.

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post #228 of 425 Old 06-26-2014, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
You can have audio that is purely object oriented, where sounds have x,y,z coordinates. That can be rendered to as many or few speakers as you want.
But we can already render sounds from objects at various locations in a conventional 5.1 system. So the difference between "purely object oriented" and channel oriented is whether you can indeed render "to as many or few speakers as you want". Now, is Atmos purely object oriented or is it channel oriented? From what I read here, it is just a 5.1 or 7.1 system with 2 or 4 overhead speakers. Sounds like channels, to me.

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post #229 of 425 Old 06-26-2014, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
But we can already render sounds from objects at various locations in a conventional 5.1 system. So the difference between "purely object oriented" and channel oriented is whether you can indeed render "to as many or few speakers as you want". Now, is Atmos purely object oriented or is it channel oriented? From what I read here, it is just a 5.1 or 7.1 system with 2 or 4 overhead speakers. Sounds like channels, to me.
It's consumer base bed is probably 7.1 channels. We don't know how many objects nor do we know how many speakers they can be rendered to.

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post #230 of 425 Old 06-26-2014, 11:09 PM
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But we can already render sounds from objects at various locations in a conventional 5.1 system.
Objects aren't limited to channel assignments, where certain locations require panning to more than one channel to create a phantom image between speakers during playback.
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So the difference between "purely object oriented" and channel oriented is whether you can indeed render "to as many or few speakers as you want".
Yes, if there is a speaker at the intended location, it will send the sound there. If there isn't, then it will grab nearby speakers to create a phantom image at the intended location. The rendering is based on the number and location of speakers.

Another difference is the ability control objects during playback. Video games have been doing this for a decade. You hear your enemy directly behind you and turn your first person shooter around, the sound of the enemy goes from your back speakers to your side speaker to your front speaker to your centre speaker. Which channel was that sound mixed to? No channel, otherwise you wouldn't have been able to move it in real time.

For a movie mix, this could mean encoding the dialogue stem as a separate object, whose volume level could be controlled by the listener during playback, without affecting anything else in the soundtrack. Can't do that if the dialogue is mixed into a channel.
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Now, is Atmos purely object oriented or is it channel oriented?
It is hybrid, allowing movie mixers to place sounds in traditional channels AND locations in 3D space, in whatever combination they're comfortable with. The idea was to add more options, not take current ones away.

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post #231 of 425 Old 06-26-2014, 11:11 PM
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You know, all this talk about xyz coordinates and vectors reminds me of Stargate for some strange reason.
Except without the she-male villain.

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So, when will they add the ability to render objects beneath you using speakers beneath the coffee table/seat in front of you, angled upwards? That way when the actor steps on a snake or a rat scurries across his/her feat I can watch my wife jump out of her seat and scream.
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post #233 of 425 Old 06-27-2014, 06:22 AM
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Will Dolby Atmos for home theaters have object-based audio or will it just be discrete audio with overhead channels?
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post #234 of 425 Old 06-27-2014, 07:51 AM
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Will Dolby Atmos for home theaters have object-based audio or will it just be discrete audio with overhead channels?
No one except Dolby insiders know this for sure.

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post #235 of 425 Old 06-27-2014, 09:40 AM
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Objects aren't limited to channel assignments, where certain locations require panning to more than one channel to create a phantom image between speakers during playback.
I don't understand this. Objects which lie in a direction where there happens no speaker available require panning now, and they will still require panning with home-Atmos. There is no difference in that regard.

You make the point that Atmos can locate objects for us in 3D space, while our present 5.1 channel systems cannot do this. This is true, but the only reason it is true is because 5.1 systems don't have any source height channels. Add a couple of height channels, and a 5.1.2 channel system could also locate objects in 3D.

And that is what home-Atmos appears to me to be, in effect. It's a way to smuggle in source height channels. All the stuff about being "object oriented" is just window dressing.

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post #236 of 425 Old 06-27-2014, 10:53 AM
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Home atmos MUST sound convincingly better to the lay public ... And the way to do that is with demos with 16+ channels to give enough room surface area coverage.

You need to upsell speakers convincingly or atmos has no real point and cannot be experienced correctly.

It NEEDS TO SCALABLE just like the theater version. You MUST cater to the early adopter wealthy consumer the way porsche or ferrari might. If you cant get good press and reviews that "wow", the whole thing is gonna be dead in the water.

No matter how cheap your atmos budget is, its still a sizable investment most relevant to upper middle class and above.

I cant find a single announed avr i want at this point and i have been atmos ready for 3-6 months now
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post #237 of 425 Old 06-27-2014, 11:00 AM
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Home atmos MUST sound convincingly better to the lay public ... And the way to do that is with demos with 16+ channels to give enough room surface area coverage.

You need to upsell speakers convincingly or atmos has no real point and cannot be experienced correctly.

It NEEDS TO BE SCALABLE just like the theater version. You MUST cater to the early adopter wealthy consumer the way porsche or ferrari might. If you cant get good press and reviews that "wow", the whole thing is gonna be dead in the water.

No matter how cheap your atmos budget is, its still a sizable investment most relevant to upper middle class and above.

I cant find a single announed avr i want at this point and i have been atmos ready for 3-6 months now
Well said, though it can't just be targeted at wealthy individuals because then all you'll get are super expensive decoders that can create a more lavish Atmos experience for the home. That's why I think modular equipment should become the norm. You cannot do object based audio well stuck with the old receiver model of doing business. That way you're stuck to a limited amount of speakers.

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post #238 of 425 Old 06-27-2014, 11:21 AM
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I have a question about the new Pioneer speakers. It seems that they have built in drivers, or even add on modules that are on top of or placed on your front speakers to radiate the sound up to give the ATMOS effect right? They seem to rely on reflecting off of the ceiling surface. What happens if there are room treatments on the ceiling or someone insulated their ceiling to be one big bass trap. Won't that take away the advantage of using that particular method of getting ATMOS into the room leaving the more conventional way of just putting more speakers in the room. I mean, wouldn't the treatments on the ceiling absorb the very sound you are getting from those top firing speakers? If I am wrong, please correct me.

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post #239 of 425 Old 06-27-2014, 11:57 AM
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I have a question about the new Pioneer speakers. It seems that they have built in drivers, or even add on modules that are on top of or placed on your front speakers to radiate the sound up to give the ATMOS effect right? They seem to rely on reflecting off of the ceiling surface. What happens if there are room treatments on the ceiling or someone insulated their ceiling to be one big bass trap. Won't that take away the advantage of using that particular method of getting ATMOS into the room leaving the more conventional way of just putting more speakers in the room. I mean, wouldn't the treatments on the ceiling absorb the very sound you are getting from those top firing speakers? If I am wrong, please correct me.
You are not wrong. You have to have hard, reflective ceilings. Better to install real top speakers (timbre matched to the rest of your speakers) for the best effect anyway.

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post #240 of 425 Old 06-27-2014, 12:02 PM
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Posts: 6,289
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Thanks Dan. Some times I feel like I am out of my league with this stuff but it's nice to know that I get some of it.

It ain't easy being green.
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MIkeDuke is offline  
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