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Latest Industry News > Pioneer's Dolby Atmos-Compatible AVRs and Speakers
wingnut4772's Avatar wingnut4772 06:26 PM 06-24-2014
Just another way to get more $$$ out of the consumer. I'm out. In fact, I'm over all the upgradeitis needed with this hobby.

David Susilo's Avatar David Susilo 06:49 PM 06-24-2014
Isn't that the case with any business?
ambidexterous's Avatar ambidexterous 02:54 AM 06-25-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by b curry View Post
No



There will be AVR's configured 5.1.4 or 7.1.2 and 7.1.4 or 9.1.2. The key here is the first group has 9 channels +1 and the second group has 11 channels +1 of amplification.

It's possible 7.1.4 and 9.1.2 will be more geared to pre-pro's.
That is correct. Here's info on Denon that is due to come out in September and Marantz supporting these speaker configurations.

http://www.twice.com/news/components...mponents/45756
solarrdadd's Avatar solarrdadd 08:36 AM 06-25-2014
on the new Onkyo Atmos pre-amp PR-SC-5530, the Onkyo receiver TX NR-3030 and the new Pioneer receiver SC-89 (that gets the Atmos upgrade later this year) both have one interestingly sad trait, neither have multichannel inputs as they have been sacrificed for the extra channels of speakers.

for those of us who prefer multichannel analog from our players for music and movies because said players have better DAC's, we are out of luck. i have an Oppo 105D connected to my current Onkyo pre-amp 5507 via 8 analog RCA cables and i won't give up that 105D superior DAC sound for anything! and yes, i understand that the information comes from the digital realm via HDMI, but i can really do without and still live.

no Atmos for me; i've got a 7.1 system and that's plenty good audio for me and my 105D!
solarrdadd's Avatar solarrdadd 08:54 AM 06-25-2014
well, Pioneer will be releasing some Atmos speakers, at least i think they will based on this graphic at their site:

Click image for larger version

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i guess you would have to run two dedicated pair of speaker cables to each speaker (not counting the center) plus not shown the rear (with two dedicated pair of speaker cables also) that would make 11 speakers which kinda rings true since each of the receivers/pre-amps all have 11 speaker channels available.

what do you guys think?
Attached:
b curry's Avatar b curry 09:03 AM 06-25-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by solarrdadd View Post
well, Pioneer will be releasing some Atmos speakers, at least i think they will based on this graphic at their site:

Attachment 134698

i guess you would have to run two dedicated pair of speaker cables to each speaker (not counting the center) plus not shown the rear (with two dedicated pair of speaker cables also) that would make 11 speakers which kinda rings true since each of the receivers/pre-amps all have 11 speaker channels available.

what do you guys think?


The picture you've posted depicts a 5.1.4 Atmos configuration; that would be 9 channels +1 for LFE.

Yes, the Pioneer Atmos speaker will require two separate speaker cables to each box.

EDIT: 11 amplifier/AVR channels will support up to 7.1.4 or 9.1.2. You could also have a 5.1.2 or 7.1.2 configuration as well.
sdurani's Avatar sdurani 09:21 AM 06-25-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by solarrdadd View Post
what do you guys think?
I think it's only for people that can't/won't mount in-ceiling or on-ceiling speakers. IF they come out with small bookshelf versions of these coaxials, I would rather mount 4 of them high up than rely on ceiling reflections. Only if I couldn't do that would I resort to virtual height speakers.
cranster's Avatar cranster 09:54 AM 06-25-2014
I'm out on the pioneer atmos speakers. My ceiling is only 6'8", and the pioneer speakers require 8' to 14', and a hard surface on the floor for proper reflection, and I have a carpet. I was, and apparently still am planning on getting sierra 2's across the front lcr, and have 2 more sets of speakers for sides, and rears. I'm not going to rule out getting 4 sierra 1's for height speakers. The problem for me will be that I can't do in ceiling speakers in an apartment, but could do 4 telescoping tripod speaker stands to get them up there, but angling them to the the listener position will pose a challenge. I'm waiting to see the price of the denon x4100 in the US. So far it's listed on avforum as 1499 gbp which is about $2550.00. That's a mighty hefty upgrade price increase for the successor to the $1299 x4000.
b curry's Avatar b curry 10:45 AM 06-25-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by cranster View Post
I'm out on the pioneer atmos speakers. My ceiling is only 6'8", and the pioneer speakers require 8' to 14', and a hard surface on the floor for proper reflection, and I have a carpet. I was, and apparently still am planning on getting sierra 2's across the front lcr, and have 2 more sets of speakers for sides, and rears. I'm not going to rule out getting 4 sierra 1's for height speakers. The problem for me will be that I can't do in ceiling speakers in an apartment, but could do 4 telescoping tripod speaker stands to get them up there, but angling them to the the listener position will pose a challenge. I'm waiting to see the price of the denon x4100 in the US. So far it's listed on avforum as 1499 gbp which is about $2550.00. That's a mighty hefty upgrade price increase for the successor to the $1299 x4000.
Perhaps a typo, but the Pioneer caveat calls out the "listening room ceiling should have horizontal flat hard surface (for audio reflection)".

If Atmos is successful I'm sure we will see a wide variety of height speaker designs come to market as manufactures jump on the band wagon in the next year. A good many people will have challenging rooms for Atmos implementation.

Companies like Leon Speakers Corporation have deep experience building shallow 1.5" to 4" deep on wall speakers. Something like this could easily transition to on ceiling mounting without cutting into the building material.
esappy's Avatar esappy 11:53 AM 06-25-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
I think it's only for people that can't/won't mount in-ceiling or on-ceiling speakers. IF they come out with small bookshelf versions of these coaxials, I would rather mount 4 of them high up than rely on ceiling reflections. Only if I couldn't do that would I resort to virtual height speakers.
+1. If you have the option, starting with in/on ceiling speakers sounds like the ideal method. That would emulate what commercial cinemas are doing. Placing an 'Atmos enabled module' on top of my existing speakers and having them fire up and reflect off the ceiling is definitely my last resort. But I can understand that may be necessary for some people. My buddy lives in an apartment so obviously he wont be cutting holes in the ceiling and they are pretty strict about putting holes in walls so hanging or mounting speakers would be a no go for him also. Add on modules may be his best option at this point.
wse's Avatar wse 12:50 PM 06-25-2014
So what do they look like press conference any one?
David Susilo's Avatar David Susilo 03:23 PM 06-25-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post
So it's got a different physical diffusion pattern? I wonder how they're going to sell that, for speakers that also need to sound good on non-Atmos material, such as 99.999999999% of the world's recorded audio.

No way I'm buying speakers specifically for Atmos. If they're required, I'm not interested. Unless by some chance they make everything I listen to that much better. What happens when one turns the Atmos processing off? I guess you have muddy, diffuse sound with no sound stage?

Atmos seems really great. Finally some real innovation beyond just EQ and room correction. Room and speakers coherently working together, to give the best possible sound field for your couch, seems ideal.
The speakers will have dual terminals. 1 set for the regular speaker input, 1 set for reflective (top firing) speaker input.
Dan Hitchman's Avatar Dan Hitchman 03:34 PM 06-25-2014
No word on the Pioneer press conference or Atmos demo at CE Week??
action_jackson's Avatar action_jackson 03:34 PM 06-25-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post
So what do they look like press conference any one?
They have them up on their site http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PU...a+Home+Theater
action_jackson's Avatar action_jackson 03:40 PM 06-25-2014
I was looking at the rear of the Atmos compatible AVRs and notice that they have 11 channel output plus the subs. I wonder if they will be able to output 11 discrete channels for Atmos if we use an external amplifier to power the other channels?
BRob1's Avatar BRob1 05:13 PM 06-25-2014
bass excavator's Avatar bass excavator 07:16 PM 06-25-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by wingnut4772 View Post
Just another way to get more $$$ out of the consumer. I'm out. In fact, I'm over all the upgradeitis needed with this hobby.
HERE HERE!

I am also virtually over the upgradeitis. The last component I will be buying will be an Oppo 105 next year to replace my tried and true little Samsung. I will be using the analog outputs of the 105 for the sonic performance. I manually tune the system to my room.

Now if by next year Oppo will include the Atmos/MDA chip in their players then that will be a bonus. Oppo messaged back today saying that they may be considering this option in their players. I can then run Atmos or MDA processed through the 105 rather than the AVR.

If Oppo does not include the Atmos chip or Atmos doesn't make much of a difference in my standard 7.1 setup, I am STILL getting the 105.

Atmos/MDA, as I perceive it, is a more advanced Navigation System in the car but is not the better or higher performing car.
esappy's Avatar esappy 09:00 PM 06-25-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by bass excavator View Post
Now if by next year Oppo will include the Atmos/MDA chip in their players then that will be a bonus. Oppo messaged back today saying that they may be considering this option in their players. I can then run Atmos or MDA processed through the 105 rather than the AVR.
Wouldn't the player then need to have up to 12 preouts to achieve 7.1.4 Atmos if the player is doing the processing? How many prepros out there actually have a pre-in section with that many inputs? Based on the current pics of the Denon X7200 and the Marantz AV8802, they both only have the standard 8 (7.1) inputs. Pioneer looks like they don't even have multi channel pre inputs at all, and I'm not sure about Onkyo/Integra. Maybe one of the super expensive prepros have it?
sdurani's Avatar sdurani 09:13 PM 06-25-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by esappy View Post
Placing an 'Atmos enabled module' on top of my existing speakers and having them fire up and reflect off the ceiling is definitely my last resort. But I can understand that may be necessary for some people.
Indeed, I think Dolby and speaker manufacturers are simply accepting the reality that most consumers are not going to be punching holes in the ceiling. Even though I won't be buying virtual height speakers, I am still curious to see how creative the loudspeaker industry is willing to get in an attempt to make sound come from above the listener without having speakers up there. Should be some interesting designs in the next couple years.
wse's Avatar wse 09:51 PM 06-25-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by bass excavator View Post
HERE HERE!

I am also virtually over the upgradeitis. The last component I will be buying will be an Oppo 105 next year to replace my tried and true little Samsung. I will be using the analog outputs of the 105 for the sonic performance. I manually tune the system to my room.

Now if by next year Oppo will include the Atmos/MDA chip in their players then that will be a bonus. Oppo messaged back today saying that they may be considering this option in their players. I can then run Atmos or MDA processed through the 105 rather than the AVR.

If Oppo does not include the Atmos chip or Atmos doesn't make much of a difference in my standard 7.1 setup, I am STILL getting the 105.

Atmos/MDA, as I perceive it, is a more advanced Navigation System in the car but is not the better or higher performing car.
Next year it will be the 115
wse's Avatar wse 09:52 PM 06-25-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by esappy View Post
Wouldn't the player then need to have up to 12 preouts to achieve 7.1.4 Atmos if the player is doing the processing? How many prepros out there actually have a pre-in section with that many inputs? Based on the current pics of the Denon X7200 and the Marantz AV8802, they both only have the standard 8 (7.1) inputs. Pioneer looks like they don't even have multi channel pre inputs at all, and I'm not sure about Onkyo/Integra. Maybe one of the super expensive prepros have it?
Yes I would rather have 9.2.4
esappy's Avatar esappy 09:59 PM 06-25-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post
Yes I would rather have 9.2.4
Yeah, good luck finding a prepro with that many inputs.

Not even this beast has that many inputs: http://www.goldmund.com/en/products/mimesis_32_5 But 32 output channels is insane!
bass excavator's Avatar bass excavator 12:30 AM 06-26-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by esappy View Post
Wouldn't the player then need to have up to 12 preouts to achieve 7.1.4 Atmos if the player is doing the processing? How many prepros out there actually have a pre-in section with that many inputs? Based on the current pics of the Denon X7200 and the Marantz AV8802, they both only have the standard 8 (7.1) inputs. Pioneer looks like they don't even have multi channel pre inputs at all, and I'm not sure about Onkyo/Integra. Maybe one of the super expensive prepros have it?
Um I didn't exactly think of that one esappy. You have a huge point on this as Atmos is channel-based. Perhaps not then.
bass excavator's Avatar bass excavator 12:36 AM 06-26-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by solarrdadd View Post
on the new Onkyo Atmos pre-amp PR-SC-5530, the Onkyo receiver TX NR-3030 and the new Pioneer receiver SC-89 (that gets the Atmos upgrade later this year) both have one interestingly sad trait, neither have multichannel inputs as they have been sacrificed for the extra channels of speakers.

for those of us who prefer multichannel analog from our players for music and movies because said players have better DAC's, we are out of luck. i have an Oppo 105D connected to my current Onkyo pre-amp 5507 via 8 analog RCA cables and i won't give up that 105D superior DAC sound for anything! and yes, i understand that the information comes from the digital realm via HDMI, but i can really do without and still live.

no Atmos for me; i've got a 7.1 system and that's plenty good audio for me and my 105D!
If that's the case solarrdadd then I'm with you as I'm planning to get a 105 next year to complete my system as I love the analog dacs it's using. I run my Samsung with the 8 cables multichannel. I set it up that way as I'm planning the 105.

I think that Atmos may be niche only or it will flop like a chicken as how many people are going to get more speakers in their living room. For myself I want nothing more than my 7.1. DTS has MDA and in their 2013 interview their spokesman Kellogg said MDA can work in existing systems. Perhaps Oppo will adopt something like that.

DTS will have the upper hand on this. Who knows by next year what happens.
thrang's Avatar thrang 12:48 AM 06-26-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by esappy View Post
Wouldn't the player then need to have up to 12 preouts to achieve 7.1.4 Atmos if the player is doing the processing? How many prepros out there actually have a pre-in section with that many inputs? Based on the current pics of the Denon X7200 and the Marantz AV8802, they both only have the standard 8 (7.1) inputs. Pioneer looks like they don't even have multi channel pre inputs at all, and I'm not sure about Onkyo/Integra. Maybe one of the super expensive prepros have it?
Why wouldn't you just send player-decoded multichannel via hdmi like you can now (presuming adequate bandwidth)?

The pre-outs on players are for legacy connections (processors without HDMI); belief that the player DACs are better than the AVR DACs; or a desire to connect directly to amps (in the case of the Oppo) and bypass the AVR entirely.

Unless I missed and earlier use case scenario...
Dan Hitchman's Avatar Dan Hitchman 08:03 AM 06-26-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post
Why wouldn't you just send player-decoded multichannel via hdmi like you can now (presuming adequate bandwidth)?

The pre-outs on players are for legacy connections (processors without HDMI); belief that the player DACs are better than the AVR DACs; or a desire to connect directly to amps (in the case of the Oppo) and bypass the AVR entirely.

Unless I missed and earlier use case scenario...
But you need a receiver or pre-amp that can potentially accept 13 or possibly more PCM channels. No animal like that exists yet.
thrang's Avatar thrang 08:08 AM 06-26-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
But you need a receiver or pre-amp that can potentially accept 13 or possibly more PCM channels. No animal like that exists yet.
Were talking the context of the new AVR's in this thread, which will of course.

My post was referencing the belief one needs analog outs for a player to do the processing...multichannel LPCM can be transmitted over HDMI now - analogs are used for other reasons.
esappy's Avatar esappy 10:26 AM 06-26-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post
Were talking the context of the new AVR's in this thread, which will of course.

My post was referencing the belief one needs analog outs for a player to do the processing...multichannel LPCM can be transmitted over HDMI now - analogs are used for other reasons.
@bass excavator was talking about using a future Oppo blu ray player as the decoder and then sending out the signals as analog using the superior DAC's from the Oppo. So in that case you would need to have at least 12 analog outputs on the bluray player (7.1.4) for 'full Atmos' implementation as we currently understand it. That is not wholly inconceivable, what is is finding a prepro or receiver with a multichannel input section with that many inputs. I don't think they exist at this point. The Marantz and Denon units max out at 7.1 analog inputs, the new Pioneers look like they dont even have multichannel inputs, not sure about Onkyo/Integra, and uber expensive units like the Lexicon and Goldmund dont have that many inputs either.

Even if you had the player decode it to PCM and sent it via HDMI, you are still going to need a new unit to be able to extract the info to send to the appropriate speaker. Dolby has already said that Atmos 'should' be compatible with existing bluray players, so what would be the point of that?
Dan Hitchman's Avatar Dan Hitchman 10:33 AM 06-26-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by esappy View Post
@bass excavator was talking about using a future Oppo blu ray player as the decoder and then sending out the signals as analog using the superior DAC's from the Oppo. So in that case you would need to have at least 12 analog outputs on the bluray player (7.1.4) for 'full Atmos' implementation as we currently understand it. That is not wholly inconceivable, what is is finding a prepro or receiver with a multichannel input section with that many inputs. I don't think they exist at this point. The Marantz and Denon units max out at 7.1 analog inputs, the new Pioneers look like they dont even have multichannel inputs, not sure about Onkyo/Integra, and uber expensive units like the Lexicon and Goldmund dont have that many inputs either.

Even if you had the player decode it to PCM and sent it via HDMI, you are still going to need a new unit to be able to extract the info to send to the appropriate speaker. Dolby has already said that Atmos 'should' be compatible with existing bluray players, so what would be the point of that?
Meaning the players can bitstream Atmos because the player and HDMI chipset think it's Dolby TrueHD. Players would think DTS-UHD is DTS Master Audio. They were sneaky.
bass excavator's Avatar bass excavator 11:05 AM 06-26-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
Meaning the players can bitstream Atmos because the player and HDMI chipset think it's Dolby TrueHD. Players would think DTS-UHD is DTS Master Audio. They were sneaky.
Can you guys look at this video of DTS's MDA technology? Some of you may have seen this before but this is from 2013. It explains MDA as something different than Atmos. That is my perception. It seems that it is not channel-based. This way maybe the player can send this "renderer" through HDMI OR 7.1 analog using any amount of speakers the user needs.


You Tube

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