Pioneer Unloads Home Electronics Business - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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Old 06-25-2014, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by saprano View Post
The advantage MCACC has is that you have more control after you calibrate. You can adjust anything you want and still keep the calibration. Audyssey doesn't let you do that. There's no tweaking at all. Not to mention you can save your calibration to 6 memory slots and do 3 different types of calibrations. This makes it so easy to compare different results. Since there's no sub EQ i use the standing wave filters, which is basically a PEQ. Then i just bump the sub level from those filters 3db. It makes a huge difference for me. imo, MCACC is much better than Audyssey just because you have so much stuff you can tweak to make the sound better. But i find MCACC calibrates better than Audyssey in my room anyway.
I gotcha. I have MCCAC in my living room. Its just my opinion that Audyssey is the better room correction suite, even acknowledging all your valid points. Audyssey is not perfect either and especially irritating that they hide their filter sets once they are set after auto correct. Although, I believe the higher versions of Audyssey allow more "tweaking" but thats the pro version license and higher end Dennons if memory serves me correct.

We just disagree.
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Old 06-25-2014, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by seattlepir8 View Post

BTW, when I dropped it off at the authorized repair shop, I explained the faults and the guy reached under the counter and pulled out a couple of OTHER brand HDMI boards just to show me what failed. They all looked about the same and they all had similar failures. It's not brand specific and Pioneer is not immune. But hey, mine lasted three and a half years and they covered it. Well done by Onkyo IMHO. The repair guy did say that so far, they've had none of the replacement boards come back.=
Heat has a lot to do with that. AVRs are notorious for cramming a million components into a space not much larger than a toaster oven.

I suspect this is what also kills the digital audio board (and I should note that even when that's dead in the VSX-49/59 it still continues to function as a killer small amp with analog inputs) on the older Pioneers. But then again, it's not universal as mine is from 2001 and has survived years with the original owner and now me without fault (knock on wood). I only bought it like last year as a nice receiver just for what it was since I didn't need HDMI. I think it came with the box MCACC mic, touchscreen remote and manuals for like 300 bucks. Can't beat that with a stick for the quality of this thing. Even used it as a dead nuts quiet pre-amp for a while and now it's at my brother's place.
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Old 06-25-2014, 06:22 PM
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Is it confirmed Onkyo is pulling Audyssey in their entire line? I have no problem with the cheap end losing it but they're smoking crack if they think people will upgrade from models that have MultEQ XT32 for some crap built in IC solution.

No way I am giving up my 3008 unless it is for a model with equivalent specs and features.
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Old 06-25-2014, 06:31 PM
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Some of you are saying that Pioneer is still going to sell their own receivers and Blu-ray players in addition to selling to Onkyo and another company. Others are saying that being that Pioneer is selling to other companies, we shouldn't expect anything new in Pioneer's home theater department in 2015. I was going to get the new Elite VSX-80 receiver this fall and hold my breath for a new Elite Blu-ray player with PQLS. Are you saying that the Pioneer high-speed Blu-ray dream with SourceDirect HDMI video resolution, PQLS, and DSD-to-PCM conversion at 176.4 KHz may never come true and that I should start looking for a Denon, Marantz, Onkyo, or Yamaha receiver with jitter-tolerant DACs, get an Oppo BDP-103, set it to SourceDirect, and tell it to bitstream DTS-HD-MA, Dolby TrueHD, DSD, and even the lossy DTS and Dolby Digital via HDMI?

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Old 06-25-2014, 06:35 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Playdrv4me View Post
Vintage-heads will never be satisfied by anything but their SX-1980 holy grail :eyeroll:, yet as novel as that behemoth is, I'd say that of the modern stuff, the peak came with the VSX-49TX, and 59TXi circa the early 2000s, which I know you and I have discussed before, Vinnie. Major important fact was that those tanks were the last of the Made in Japan variety (even the big-daddy SC-09TX was made in Malaysia by that point) and it shows throughout the construction and even the way the caps and power supply components are carefully labeled almost as if to be seen. Even the touchscreen remote, which was honestly a pain to use, was a completely over-engineered piece of gear. Sadly, this era suffered from digital board failures which put a bit of a damper on their legendary status, but took NOTHING away from their flawless construction and attention to details.

I do have to admit, even having a pair of BeoLab 5s, I'm surprised to hear so much love lavished on ICE amps which is nice to hear. On the audiophile 2 channel side, Ice stuff is generally derided for having negative characteristics in the treble and such (again, eyeroll). Yet having the Lab 5s in the same listening room with 802Ds on good amplification, I prefer the Lab 5s and their supposedly "horrible" ICE amplification.

Interestingly, I too still have a fully functional Pro-Logic VSX-406 from *1996* that NEVER is turned off because it serves as a homebrew subwoofer amp at my brother's place. It just keeps going and going and going, and that was a MID level model that wasn't even Japanese made.
Aye, we have indeed. In spite of it possibly not being as robust as the units made in Japan, I foresee this SC-05 lasting just as long as the VSX-502 I had prior.
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Old 06-25-2014, 06:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Utopianemo View Post
As am I. In spite of the wanton negativity in this thread(sadly typical of AVS posters), I am really excited to see what Pioneer has to show. I'm also curious to hear what you have to say about the SQ, if you get to hear any of the AVRs. If anything, the general consensus from pro reviews seems to be that the SQ has gotten better since they stopped using the B&O ICE amps, because the ICE amps sounded a little too sterile. Hopefully Scott will get to report on it for the HT Geeks podcast as well. Good luck and have fun!
One man's sterility (poor choice of words here, I do declare, lol) is another's neutrality/transparency.
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Old 06-25-2014, 06:55 PM
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The sound quality is not terrible on Pioneer's but they got behind with their MCACC or whatever. The alphabet soup name "MCACC" is completely silly too. They also haven't embraced more channels, XLR connectors, better integration instant integration with control systems, higher channel counts, or anything else I care for. Their cosmetic styling has never really been great for me either.

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Old 06-25-2014, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
this has been a long time coming and really no big surprise
If I were a betting man I would say they lost their A&% on their TV business when they were still a player

They were having very bad financial issues when I bought my SC 07 years ago...like 2008-2009?
It was rumored, at that time, that they were going to get out of the home audio business and concentrate of the much more profitable car audio business

I have long since gotten rid of the Sc07...but I still hang on to an SC37, a unit others have mentioned that was the pinnacle of that series.

So now its Yamaha, D&M and a bigger Onkyo that are left of the Asians.... I cant imagine this "new" pioneer is going to having much other than "me -too" units that dont need require much in the area of innovation or new R&D


Warren
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Old 06-25-2014, 07:10 PM
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Wow... I'm reading this thread while watching my beautiful 2009 Kuro 60" surrounded by some pioneer speakers.

This week I am finally building my first threater room in our home... here are the specs:

AVR Pioneer SC-1523 with a 9.2 speaker system with 7 pioneer speakers (not the subs). Installed an electric acousticpro 100" elite screen and will be ceiling mounting an Optoma HD25.

The first real receiver I ever bought was a Pioneer VSX-D608 that I will still be using to handle the sound field for our outdoor pool area that is being put in this month.

I have 4 receivers in my home... the two Pioneer receivers previously mentioned and two yamahas... I have not had a single problem with any of them yet. I only purchased new when I needed newer capabilities (i.e. s-video and toslink, multiple component switching, hdmi switching, hdmi 3d and network capability)

Reading through this feels like we are lamenting a dead friend at a funeral. It may be a bit premature... I hope that Pioneer can continue being a leader in innovation and home theater.
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Old 06-26-2014, 12:23 AM
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Pioneer has always been my first "go-to" choice for receivers, and I have had great luck with their speakers over the years. I took some time off and had a HK receiver for a while, but I wound up back with a Pioneer Elite in short fashion. As I am now less than a year away from building my sweet suite, I was avidly looking forward to the new Pioneer line. They may not be the absolute best sometimes, but I have never been disappointed by one. Now Kaleidescape is getting nerfed, and it looks like Pioneer as the first choice might not have much future either. This is rather depressing. Oh to have built a theatre 5 years ago...
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Old 06-26-2014, 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted by blazar View Post
The sound quality is not terrible on Pioneer's but they got behind with their MCACC or whatever. The alphabet soup name "MCACC" is completely silly too. They also haven't embraced more channels, XLR connectors, better integration instant integration with control systems, higher channel counts, or anything else I care for. Their cosmetic styling has never really been great for me either.
Pioneer is positioned at the entry-mid level of consumer HT, and in fairness, I've never seen an Onkyo, Yamaha or Denon receiver or pre-pro with XLRs. Maybe they exist, but certainly none of what they offer at the big box store level has them. I mean, my Classe gear has that, but it's positioned at a point well above any Pioneer product.
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Old 06-26-2014, 02:07 AM
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I'm surprised the Korean's aren't going into the home theater business. Samsung and LG seem to be everywhere except HT. It seems the easiest way to get in is to purchase a troubled Japanese unit. I wonder if it's a pride thing. The Japanese seem to be disliked by everyone in their region.
Koreans are represented on this market by Inkel - company that currently owns Sherwood brand and makes OEM budget receivers for other major brands. Samsung tried to make AV receivers like Samsung HW-C700 / Samsung HW-C500 but after a few models has stoped that. Apparently was not very successful with that.

The thing with the Japanese companies that went out of business - they almost always sold to other Japanese companies. Even if foreigners ready to pay more. The Japanese are very careful not to share their technologies with other countries.
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Old 06-26-2014, 05:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Playdrv4me View Post
Pioneer is positioned at the entry-mid level of consumer HT, and in fairness, I've never seen an Onkyo, Yamaha or Denon receiver or pre-pro with XLRs. Maybe they exist, but certainly none of what they offer at the big box store level has them. I mean, my Classe gear has that, but it's positioned at a point well above any Pioneer product.
My Onkyo 5508 pre/pro has XLRs as well as the Yamaha Cx-A5000 I just bought the other day

as I recall my old Onkyo PRSC885 pro pro that I had years ago had them as well

I dont think I have ever seen pre pros at any 'big box" store sans the Magnolia Design Centers that are Best Buy owned companies.....where there also have brands like McIntosh etc on their showroom floor


Warren

Rm 1 Samsung 64F8500 Onkyo 5509 prepro Sherbourn 5/1500A amp B&W CM10s..CM2 center...CM5's.rears
Rm 2 LG 47LE8500 Denon 4520 Celestion 305 speaker system
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Old 06-26-2014, 05:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Manichaean View Post
Koreans are represented on this market by Inkel - company that currently owns Sherwood brand and makes OEM budget receivers for other major brands. .
Great and key point

I had heard this as well


Warren

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Rm 2 LG 47LE8500 Denon 4520 Celestion 305 speaker system
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Old 06-26-2014, 05:41 AM
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Originally Posted by blazar View Post
The sound quality is not terrible on Pioneer's but they got behind with their MCACC or whatever. The alphabet soup name "MCACC" is completely silly too. They also haven't embraced more channels, XLR connectors, better integration instant integration with control systems, higher channel counts, or anything else I care for. Their cosmetic styling has never really been great for me either.
I dont see where they are not competitive at the same price points as the other Asian brands
Room correction is a subjective issue...I have used them all and there are pluses and minuses across the board
I can honestly say that my favorite pieces used different systems of room correction
They have embraced more channels...just like the other Asian manufacturers who seem to be racing to have upteem.4 channel systems
I have no idea why anyone wants to listen to upteen matrixed channels...but that is my subjective opinion

what competing Asian receiver has XLR connections?

Styling ofcourse is very subjective. I was more a fan of the look of the older SC series with the ICE amps

Warren

Rm 1 Samsung 64F8500 Onkyo 5509 prepro Sherbourn 5/1500A amp B&W CM10s..CM2 center...CM5's.rears
Rm 2 LG 47LE8500 Denon 4520 Celestion 305 speaker system
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Old 06-26-2014, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Big C View Post
Some of you are saying that Pioneer is still going to sell their own receivers and Blu-ray players in addition to selling to Onkyo and another company. Others are saying that being that Pioneer is selling to other companies, we shouldn't expect anything new in Pioneer's home theater department in 2015. I was going to get the new Elite VSX-80 receiver this fall and hold my breath for a new Elite Blu-ray player with PQLS. Are you saying that the Pioneer high-speed Blu-ray dream with SourceDirect HDMI video resolution, PQLS, and DSD-to-PCM conversion at 176.4 KHz may never come true and that I should start looking for a Denon, Marantz, Onkyo, or Yamaha receiver with jitter-tolerant DACs, get an Oppo BDP-103, set it to SourceDirect, and tell it to bitstream DTS-HD-MA, Dolby TrueHD, DSD, and even the lossy DTS and Dolby Digital via HDMI?
I agree with the idea this is similar like mourning the loss of someone in a way. Should I get the VSX-80 and a BDP-62FD while I still have the chance, see what Pioneer does or doesn't do in 2015, or just get a receiver by Denon, Marantz, Onkyo, or Yamaha with jitter-tolerant DACS and either a Denon, Marantz, or Oppo universal Blu-ray/DVD/DVD-A/SACD player, set the video resolution to Source Direct, and bitstream all the audio via HDMI?
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Old 06-26-2014, 07:13 AM
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Am I the only one with the sense that home audio is the next area that is ripe for disruption?

You can put way more efficient processing power into a custom made piece of hardware with highly customized software.

Think of Apple and A7 + IoS7.

The cost efficiency would be dramatic if a PC manufacturer made AVR/processors alongside those that "know stuff about audio". It takes a blink of an eye and chump change to buyout most of the remaining audio industry.

Imagine totally internet/itunes/whatever savvy with great interface with a platform such as Apple's new "homekit" or Google's version of the same. Put all your music on the cloud in lossless for backup.

The end of what we consider an AVR is coming to an end and I am guessing the existing corporate players are coming to an end or will get bought out. With apple's new homekit, integration of AVR's is going to become a joke for most home automation. Home automation companies like control4 are going to find an ever shrinking market.

It's not as if half the folks on AVS with their individual or collective expertise couldn't direct a group of engineers and interface designers to do a better job than what is out there now.

The public is being primed for higher end audio (through headphones) with expectations changing for how much should be paid for new audio stuff. How long will the fad of headphones last before people realize what a good pair of speakers can do? Once you lower enough of a generations expectations, you can then wow them with a loudspeaker revival.

Class D will be perfected even further in the next 10 years and amplifier costs will drop even further with more channels per box.

Big components to the revolution:
1. instant integration for all products (tv and audio manufacturers will have to conform to "Homekit" or similar standards or become irrelevant.) NOBODY will buy a product that can't be controlled with their "home automation" that came with their phone...
2. even cheaper and higher quality/efficient amplifiers
3. Ethernet based audio / high speed wireless transmission with sync signals throughout the chain (including video sync to audio). Kiss the "interconnect" and ground loops goodbye. I will bet my LIFE that interconnects will become non-existent.

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Old 06-26-2014, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by blazar View Post
Am I the only one with the sense that home audio is the next area that is ripe for disruption?

You can put way more efficient processing power into a custom made piece of hardware with highly customized software.

Think of Apple and A7 + IoS7.

The cost efficiency would be dramatic if a PC manufacturer made AVR/processors alongside those that "know stuff about audio". It takes a blink of an eye and chump change to buyout most of the remaining audio industry.

Imagine totally internet/itunes/whatever savvy with great interface with a platform such as Apple's new "homekit" or Google's version of the same. Put all your music on the cloud in lossless for backup.

The end of what we consider an AVR is coming to an end and I am guessing the existing corporate players are coming to an end or will get bought out. With apple's new homekit, integration of AVR's is going to become a joke for most home automation. Home automation companies like control4 are going to find an ever shrinking market.

It's not as if half the folks on AVS with their individual or collective expertise couldn't direct a group of engineers and interface designers to do a better job than what is out there now.

The public is being primed for higher end audio (through headphones) with expectations changing for how much should be paid for new audio stuff. How long will the fad of headphones last before people realize what a good pair of speakers can do? Once you lower enough of a generations expectations, you can then wow them with a loudspeaker revival.

Class D will be perfected even further in the next 10 years and amplifier costs will drop even further with more channels per box.

Big components to the revolution:
1. instant integration for all products (tv and audio manufacturers will have to conform to "Homekit" or similar standards or become irrelevant.) NOBODY will buy a product that can't be controlled with their "home automation" that came with their phone...
2. even cheaper and higher quality/efficient amplifiers
3. Ethernet based audio / high speed wireless transmission with sync signals throughout the chain (including video sync to audio). Kiss the "interconnect" and ground loops goodbye. I will bet my LIFE that interconnects will become non-existent.
I think your concept is already happening to an extent

There was a time when the Asians had components that were built like tanks
Products like the Denon 5308, Yamaha Z-11, Pioneer VSX49TX were show pieces and has MSRP's north of $4K
Not anymore....there is serious( and obvious ) cost cutting among all the Asian brands
None of them have flagship products anymore, that at one point, rivaled some models of the esoteric brands
Nor do their top of their current line -ups cost at much as they did 10-12 years ago

But...they sure as heck have crammed more "tricks" into the box
Sure they are some amp efficiency gained in the last decade but I would argue not that much
Some of the highest end brands still have amps that weigh about as much as their models did 10-15 years ago
So...that being said maybe the public values "tricks" more than the best audio from a pure sense


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Old 06-26-2014, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by morbidcorpse View Post
Ironically, I just sold a pioneer receiver to buy an onkyo because I wanted Audyssey. MCACC does a decent enough job with main speakers for movies, bit it absolutely SUCKS for music.....not to mention, MCACC murders the bass.
I agree. Audyssey all the way! I love my Denon and one of the main reasons is its cal software and dynamic EQ/VOL features.

For these reasons alone, I would put my modest Denon 1713 up against many higher end Pioneer Elite AVR's for actual sound quality any day. My friend and I have the same speaker setup and he has an Elite (not sure what model) but the sound in my room is far superior to the sound he is getting in his room. I attribute much of that to Audyssey and Denon sound processing features.
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Old 06-26-2014, 11:00 AM
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looks like ill hold on to my vsx1018 for a few more years until i make enough to get an integra

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Old 06-26-2014, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by freemeat View Post
Back when I bought my lower end receiver I purchased a few receivers (Pioneer's, Denon's and Onkyo's_ and end up returning them and finally settling on an Onkyo 805. To me it did the best job at pushing my speakers as well as meeting my requirements for blu-ray. That said I think Pioneer receivers are very nice as well and a great value, especially the higher end range.

I love Pioneer head units for cars, I hope they keep going strong.
Onkyo 805 was a game changer in the receiver market (imho). It was to good to be true kind of product. Excellent power amp, beefed up power supply, good DAC, Audissey MultiEQ XT. When it successor 806 showed up the cost reduction was written all over: power supply/amp, DAC, Audissey (MultiEQ), not to mention significant weight loss (50.9lbs vs 37.5lbs) - it was a disappointment, but they had to keep 805 quality in $2000+ category. To be fair, 806 had better video processing, but who really cares for that? I have used my 805 for a year or 2 in my HT room before I added parasound hca-2205at amp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Playdrv4me View Post
Vintage-heads will never be satisfied by anything but their SX-1980 holy grail :eyeroll:, yet as novel as that behemoth is, I'd say that of the modern stuff, the peak came with the VSX-49TX, and 59TXi circa the early 2000s, which I know you and I have discussed before, Vinnie. Major important fact was that those tanks were the last of the Made in Japan variety (even the big-daddy SC-09TX was made in Malaysia by that point) and it shows throughout the construction and even the way the caps and power supply components are carefully labeled almost as if to be seen. Even the touchscreen remote, which was honestly a pain to use, was a completely over-engineered piece of gear. Sadly, this era suffered from digital board failures which put a bit of a damper on their legendary status, but took NOTHING away from their flawless construction and attention to details.

I do have to admit, even having a pair of BeoLab 5s, I'm surprised to hear so much love lavished on ICE amps which is nice to hear. On the audiophile 2 channel side, Ice stuff is generally derided for having negative characteristics in the treble and such (again, eyeroll). Yet having the Lab 5s in the same listening room with 802Ds on good amplification, I prefer the Lab 5s and their supposedly "horrible" ICE amplification.

Interestingly, I too still have a fully functional Pro-Logic VSX-406 from *1996* that NEVER is turned off because it serves as a homebrew subwoofer amp at my brother's place. It just keeps going and going and going, and that was a MID level model that wasn't even Japanese made.
Yeap, vsx-49tx and vsx-59txi had the best power amps as far as Pioneer receivers are going. I remember bunch of audiophiles tweaking them to death (removing coupling caps and such).
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Old 06-27-2014, 12:32 AM
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Originally Posted by turnne1
My Onkyo 5508 pre/pro has XLRs as well as the Yamaha Cx-A5000 I just bought the other day

as I recall my old Onkyo PRSC885 pro pro that I had years ago had them as well

I dont think I have ever seen pre pros at any 'big box" store sans the Magnolia Design Centers that are Best Buy owned companies.....where there also have brands like McIntosh etc on their showroom floor
That's actually pretty cool, although the Onkyo is not fully balanced, so they may as well be fancy RCAs, and the Yamaha is astonishingly lacking an XLR for the sub, which is where a lot of noise issues can show up and the benefits of XLRs can really come into play. It seems like the Asian brands always happen to *just* miss something when it comes to things like audiophile interconnects and topologies versus the established American and European audiophile brands.

Of all the Japanese brands, I think Sony over the years did the best job of embracing FULL BALANCED XLR connections for 2 channel audio which is where it really shines. Despite the fact that a lot of audiophiles dismiss Sony when it comes audiophile equipment discussions, they've had some amazing special edition equipment over the years. Of course, none of this was sold at the big box store level with the exception of store within a store specialty concepts like Magnolia, as mentioned.

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Old 06-27-2014, 06:00 AM
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Originally Posted by tpaxadpom View Post
Onkyo 805 was a game changer in the receiver market (imho). It was to good to be true kind of product. Excellent power amp, beefed up power supply, good DAC, Audissey MultiEQ XT.
along with questionable reliability and hence a ton or refurbs in the market the next year going for less than $400 in some cases
Those were( are) great units when they worked. I bought a refurbed 875 back then for like $550
HDMI board died( no surprise there) but it was fixed under warranty
btw..I am an Onkyo fan I just always suggest to extend the warranty on them

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Originally Posted by Playdrv4me View Post
That's actually pretty cool, although the Onkyo is not fully balanced, so they may as well be fancy RCAs, and the Yamaha is astonishingly lacking an XLR for the sub, which is where a lot of noise issues can show up and the benefits of XLRs can really come into play. It seems like the Asian brands always happen to *just* miss something when it comes to things like audiophile interconnects and topologies versus the established American and European audiophile brands.

Of all the Japanese brands, I think Sony over the years did the best job of embracing FULL BALANCED XLR connections for 2 channel audio which is where it really shines. Despite the fact that a lot of audiophiles dismiss Sony when it comes audiophile equipment discussions, they've had some amazing special edition equipment over the years. Of course, none of this was sold at the big box store level with the exception of store within a store specialty concepts like Magnolia, as mentioned.
I dont know of a fully balanced pre/pro under $6K
That is really not a price point where the Asians brands play

The Asians brand may miss something as you say
However there are really no choices at their price points
A salesguy told me something at a higher end stereo store the other day. I asked him about some higher end brands..Krell, mcIntosh etc that they carry..he said it was the 80/20 rule
You pay 20% of the price of some of those units with an Asian brand..but you get 80% of the performance
What is that extra 20% worth?
Just like many things that is in the mind and wallet of the prospective buyer

I personally have never seen a Sony audio product that was impressive...video yes...audio no
Even their higher end ES labeled receivers today dont have very good amp sections
They are loaded with "tricks" though


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Rm 1 Samsung 64F8500 Onkyo 5509 prepro Sherbourn 5/1500A amp B&W CM10s..CM2 center...CM5's.rears
Rm 2 LG 47LE8500 Denon 4520 Celestion 305 speaker system
Rm 3 Samsung 51E8000 Yamaha A2010 Kef 2005.2 speaker system
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Old 06-27-2014, 08:17 AM
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I have a Pioneer Elite VSX-53, I love it with the exception of the remote which is very cheaply made. They actually bend if you press them hard enough. Also Pioneer Elite Blu ray player, nice but ever now and then it locks up. I have to unplug it.

I like Pioneer, but I know from what I've bought recently they do have their quirks. Better than my experience with Denon AVR's which all the ones I've had blew up on me within a year.
Hello.. My vsx-53 remote has fallen on a the tile floors many many many times over (my wife's fault, not mine ) It it still works with no broken parts..
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Old 06-27-2014, 09:34 AM
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along with questionable reliability and hence a ton or refurbs in the market the next year going for less than $400 in some cases
Those were( are) great units when they worked. I bought a refurbed 875 back then for like $550
HDMI board died( no surprise there) but it was fixed under warranty
btw..I am an Onkyo fan I just always suggest to extend the warranty on them



I dont know of a fully balanced pre/pro under $6K
That is really not a price point where the Asians brands play

The Asians brand may miss something as you say
However there are really no choices at their price points
A salesguy told me something at a higher end stereo store the other day. I asked him about some higher end brands..Krell, mcIntosh etc that they carry..he said it was the 80/20 rule
You pay 20% of the price of some of those units with an Asian brand..but you get 80% of the performance
What is that extra 20% worth?
Just like many things that is in the mind and wallet of the prospective buyer

I personally have never seen a Sony audio product that was impressive...video yes...audio no
Even their higher end ES labeled receivers today dont have very good amp sections
They are loaded with "tricks" though


Warren
Yes, 805, 875 and 905 had reliability problems, dts bomb, delay switching dd - pcm. They are not ideal. My 805 sits in close rack. I have used all 7 channels with front biamped. Never had a problem. I recommended 805 to a friend and he bought the refurb one(don't recall $400 price range after a year, they were over $550) and it had 2 channels blown. They have fixed it but he ended up paying for the shipping one way.
What is the obsession with xlr's? Fully balanced circuit will use twice as many components. Fully balanced amps are quite rare with the exception of a few exotic brands.
As far as 20% goes I think this is more applicable to movie sounds. With music it is hard to switch from krell to some low end asian brand. I am sure there are exceptions but using percentages is not a good way to measure sound quality. Shoot I cannot tell how it is going to sound after I measured component on ap 2722.
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Old 06-27-2014, 10:16 AM
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That's weird, I was thinking of buying one of their new AVRs, but now? Not so much.
Don't let this 'merger' dissuade you. If you can find an older model, or refurbed SC Elite model for a fair price you can't go wrong. Be sure it uses the ICEamp modules though.

I bought the baby of the SC (05) series several years ago at a firesale price. It has been the best AVR I've ever owned. I immediately fell in love with the ICEPower amps, their silky smooth sound (at least with my speakers - Energy RC-30) and haven't looked back. It has been going strong now for going on 6 years. It too is built like a tank. The only thing it lacks from its older siblings is the THX rating and power capability. But I never push it very hard anyway. That may change soon once my new media room is finished though and I put it back into service.

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Old 06-27-2014, 10:45 AM
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Don't let this 'merger' dissuade you. If you can find an older model, or refurbed SC Elite model for a fair price you can't go wrong. Be sure it uses the ICEamp modules though.

I bought the baby of the SC (05) series several years ago at a firesale price. It has been the best AVR I've ever owned. I immediately fell in love with the ICEPower amps, their silky smooth sound (at least with my speakers - Energy RC-30) and haven't looked back. It has been going strong now for going on 6 years. It too is built like a tank. The only thing it lacks from its older siblings is the THX rating and power capability. But I never push it very hard anyway. That may change soon once my new media room is finished though and I put it back into service.
Magnolia Home Theater 'blows" out Pioneer Elite AVR's about once a year...typically somewhere about Christmas week to just shortly after the new year....at about 75% off retail

They have for the last 3-4 years anyway

I have bought an SC25, SC35,SC37,SC57,SC65 and SC67 from them all at a minimum of 75% off MSRP
The SC7X series about about 50% off in many markets now at Magnolia....expect them to be half again for the few remaining units
Possibly other brands as well though Pioneer seems to be the most deeply discounted

If the DolbyAtmos is "perceived" as a must have item and thus making non Atmos units obsolete.....then there will be fire sale pricing like their was in late 2010, with the introduction of 3D, on the models that didnt offer 3D passthough


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Rm 1 Samsung 64F8500 Onkyo 5509 prepro Sherbourn 5/1500A amp B&W CM10s..CM2 center...CM5's.rears
Rm 2 LG 47LE8500 Denon 4520 Celestion 305 speaker system
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Rm 4 Panasonic 50ST50 906 Mirage Omni sat speaker system
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Old 06-27-2014, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by tpaxadpom View Post
Yes, 805, 875 and 905 had reliability problems, dts bomb, delay switching dd - pcm. They are not ideal. My 805 sits in close rack. I have used all 7 channels with front biamped. Never had a problem. I recommended 805 to a friend and he bought the refurb one(don't recall $400 price range after a year, they were over $550) and it had 2 channels blown. They have fixed it but he ended up paying for the shipping one way.
What is the obsession with xlr's? Fully balanced circuit will use twice as many components. Fully balanced amps are quite rare with the exception of a few exotic brands.
As far as 20% goes I think this is more applicable to movie sounds. With music it is hard to switch from krell to some low end asian brand. I am sure there are exceptions but using percentages is not a good way to measure sound quality. Shoot I cannot tell how it is going to sound after I measured component on ap 2722.
reliability issues continued well past the X05 series. Usually 2-3 years after their models are in the market you hear of issues
You can consistently find someone "dumping" a used Onkyo with HDMI issues on Ebay etc
I bought a "junked" 906 a few months ago for practically nothing...it has one bad HDMI input and one bad output
The rest functions great...for now...but I bought it with that expectation
I bought a "junked" 875 a couple of years ago and when it arrived it worked...?

XLR's are supposed to be a lot less prone to ground distortion noises
My pre pro is not fully balanced but to me it sounds a little better using the XLR cables

perhaps its a placebo effect


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Rm 1 Samsung 64F8500 Onkyo 5509 prepro Sherbourn 5/1500A amp B&W CM10s..CM2 center...CM5's.rears
Rm 2 LG 47LE8500 Denon 4520 Celestion 305 speaker system
Rm 3 Samsung 51E8000 Yamaha A2010 Kef 2005.2 speaker system
Rm 4 Panasonic 50ST50 906 Mirage Omni sat speaker system
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Old 06-27-2014, 10:57 AM
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I can't say I'm completely surprised by this annoucement considering market forces over the last 20 years. People are still spending money on home electronics...but these days it's on phones and tablets. The (mostly male) buyer would grow up in the 70's, 80's and 90's looking for their first good stereo system. These days you still need that for a good party, but the music experience is far more personal. And the younger crowd is a lot more willing to get video content on computers and tablets than massive home theater rigs.

I remember the first Pioneer stereo system I ever saw back in the 70's...it was in the home of my best friend and his parents were physicians. The system included a stereo amp, turntable and speakers. The stereo receiver was mostly silver, very stylish and had excellent quality. It probably still works, assuming it still exists once it was passed to the kids.

Lately, all the consumer electronics makers that names aren't Apple or Samsung have been squeezed by the new trends. Sony has been struggling for 15 years now. Pioneer shed it's home video division years ago (we pause to remember the spinning tuning fork logo and music). Then it was the TV business, ending with the weirdness of having the Elite brand being sold by Sharp. And now the venture capital deal + Onkyo. Keep in mind that Onkyo spun its North American business to Gibson Guitar a few years back and then they merged that operation with another acquisition, Teac.

If sharing engineering with Onkyo (which you would think is the outcome of this) will keep the Pioneer brand on store shelves, I don't see a problem with that. I've never owned Onkyo but friends have and the experience has been largely positive. Marantz survives this way through engineering sharing with Denon. But I imagine that the broader market for receivers is shrinking, not growing. There's likely little profit in most Blu-Ray players if your name isn't Oppo these days, and that's a shrinking business too.

Rick
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Old 06-27-2014, 11:28 AM
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So what's left for them to sell now? Car audio and Laser Discs?
Primarily after-market and OEM car audio, which surprisingly makes them far more money than the home electronics business, which has been a lousy business for a really long time.

I'm actually surprised there's much of a business for after-market car audio, since most car audio systems today are tied into the HVAC system and the mapping system. That makes the OEM system very hard to replace. It's not like the days when the Japanese and European car makers all used the DIN standard and you just removed a few screws, pulled out the car radio and plugged in another.
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