Pioneer Unloads Home Electronics Business - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 129 Old 06-27-2014, 10:37 AM
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Oppo will likely move into excellent processors since bluray may eventually cease to be a business.

I suspect they will do a apple homekit compatible processor with dolby atmos and high grade dacs eventually.

Less competitors (such as pioneer) will help them break into that space easier.

Processor interface and integration has lagged behind routine computer os's Badly and audio companies will eventually fix these shortcomings.
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post #92 of 129 Old 06-27-2014, 10:51 AM
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Am I the only one with the sense that home audio is the next area that is ripe for disruption?

You can put way more efficient processing power into a custom made piece of hardware with highly customized software.

Think of Apple and A7 + IoS7.

The cost efficiency would be dramatic if a PC manufacturer made AVR/processors alongside those that "know stuff about audio". It takes a blink of an eye and chump change to buyout most of the remaining audio industry.

Imagine totally internet/itunes/whatever savvy with great interface with a platform such as Apple's new "homekit" or Google's version of the same. Put all your music on the cloud in lossless for backup.

The end of what we consider an AVR is coming to an end and I am guessing the existing corporate players are coming to an end or will get bought out. With apple's new homekit, integration of AVR's is going to become a joke for most home automation. Home automation companies like control4 are going to find an ever shrinking market.

It's not as if half the folks on AVS with their individual or collective expertise couldn't direct a group of engineers and interface designers to do a better job than what is out there now.

The public is being primed for higher end audio (through headphones) with expectations changing for how much should be paid for new audio stuff. How long will the fad of headphones last before people realize what a good pair of speakers can do? Once you lower enough of a generations expectations, you can then wow them with a loudspeaker revival.

Class D will be perfected even further in the next 10 years and amplifier costs will drop even further with more channels per box.

Big components to the revolution:
1. instant integration for all products (tv and audio manufacturers will have to conform to "Homekit" or similar standards or become irrelevant.) NOBODY will buy a product that can't be controlled with their "home automation" that came with their phone...
2. even cheaper and higher quality/efficient amplifiers
3. Ethernet based audio / high speed wireless transmission with sync signals throughout the chain (including video sync to audio). Kiss the "interconnect" and ground loops goodbye. I will bet my LIFE that interconnects will become non-existent.
Sorry...not buying it...at least not for the masses. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should (or people will) do something.

First of all, Apple and manufacturers of Home Kit and other automation devices couldn't care less about home theaters and the like. It's already a niche market.

Secondly, a lot this home automation is a solution in search of a problem. We really do not need to control every device from our smartphone. Why do I need to control my refrigerator or range from my phone? And there's also already a lot of backlash to smart devices from people who believe they've had bad experiences with smart meters from the electric companies. Back in the 1970s, when I was a recording engineer and producer, I once produced a spot for Frigidaire for their "talking refrigerator". Basically, it was just a cassette deck mounted in the door, but the made a big deal out of it. Obviously, it was a failure. It wasn't needed then and it's not needed now.

Furthermore, in spite of sites like this one, most people don't have a home theatre. At most, the masses have a sound bar.

So this disruption you talk about isn't going to happen because there's essentially nothing to disrupt.

That's not to say that current manufacturers won't use the Home Kit standard to implement some automation instead of using proprietary functionality in their current iPhone or Android-based control apps.

As for headphones, people aren't listening via headphones because they're high quality - they're listening on headphones because it's the primary way to listen to an MP3 player outside the home. And when those people listen inside the home, if they're not using headphones, they're listening on one of those crappy little playback boxes with 3" speakers. IMO, portable listening hasn't increased the demand for quality - it's decreased it. I see absolutely nothing in the marketplace that says to me that there's an increased demand for high quality speakers and the like. Back in the 1960s and 70s, everyone wanted a big sound system. You don't see that today.

Where I do agree with you is that current AVR UI is indeed awful. I'm an ex-recording engineer and even I had some trouble initially understanding what everything meant - and some of it (like the various sound modes) still don't make any sense. But I don't see anyone coming along to fix that with the possible exception of OPPO. It wouldn't take that much for OPPO to take much of what they already have in their Blu-ray players and turn it into an AVR. But that's not disruption either - that's niche. And with all the industry consolidation (the latest with Onkyo getting a minority share of Pioneer) there isn't a lot of competition (and there aren't a lot of profits), so I don't see the other manufacturers making a lot of improvements on this. I've actually been very surprised that we haven't seen the equivalent of a smartphone screen built in as the main control surface for an AVR, especially at the high end, but we haven't.

Where we are eventually going to see disruption is in the program space. But it's going to take a long time (unless Apple does indeed release their own TV with an "AppleTV" embedded that goes far beyond what it does today.) Eventually, over-the-air broadcast TV will pretty much disappear and all program transmission, including what we now receive on cable or satellite, will be IPTV based and therefore available on all manner of devices. I also think that at some point, as the MSOs lose subscribers, some of the cable networks will make the first hole in the dam and make their channels available to an Apple TV or the equivalent without the consumer having to buy a cable TV subscription. But all this is going to happen over the next 7 to 15 years. It's not going to be fast.
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post #93 of 129 Old 06-27-2014, 11:49 AM
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...But all this is going to happen over the next 7 to 15 years. It's not going to be fast.
Or, pretty. Let's just hope the major wireless and cable companies will continue to build-out the infrastructure that's sadly lacking in all but major metropolitan areas of the US. I live 1 hour north of NYC and still can't get consistent reliable internet service! And the merger of Comcrapst and TWC is going to be a good thing? We need to see Google fiber in every corner of all 50 states.

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post #94 of 129 Old 06-27-2014, 12:34 PM
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So murdering the bass is because you knew it only set distance and level for the sub?


MCACC doesn't eq the bass, just go into sub level and increase it. Even Audyssey makes settings which have to be changed manually. Nothing is perfect./
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post #95 of 129 Old 06-27-2014, 01:12 PM
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Not sure what you're asking me, here? I can say this was my first real AVR and when I purchased, I didn't fully understand the advantage of receivers that include sub EQ. It was when I recently upgraded to a real subwoofer and I wasn't getting any decent extension out of it, that I began to fully understand the Pioneer's weakness in that area. Also, when just playing 2-channel stereo with no subwoofer, my mains (Mirage OMD-28's) were weak and anemic on the bass, which they should not have been. I'm getting much better results on both fronts with Audyssey. So am I to be publically challenge/scolded for having a learning curve? Sorry we don't all know EVERYTHING about HT right off the bat, like you. Some of us learn through trial and error.
Holy overreaction batman. I just wanted to know how your experience with MCACC goes from murdering the bass to knowing that it only set level/distance of your sub. FWIW my Pioneer receiver in stereo mode still used the sub (as I wanted in any case). After that Pioneer avr suffered from a failed hdmi board (and is now on iPod duty in the garage only) I went to an Audyssey based avr (Onkyo) and also prefer the Audyssey setup. LOL I wish I knew "everything" then I wouldn't spend so much time around here trying to get a handle on all the possibilities....

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post #96 of 129 Old 06-27-2014, 01:13 PM
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MCACC doesn't eq the bass, just go into sub level and increase it. Even Audyssey makes settings which have to be changed manually. Nothing is perfect./
Yes, am aware of that. Audyssey in my avr does not allow a manual change in the eq without giving up the Audyssey eq setting afaik (you can adjust trim level though).

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post #97 of 129 Old 06-27-2014, 04:03 PM
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Yes, am aware of that. Audyssey in my avr does not allow a manual change in the eq without giving up the Audyssey eq setting afaik (you can adjust trim level though).
Yes, with audyssey you can change level, speaker size, I'm guessing that you can change crossover also. Never owned an audyssey equipped receiver, don't know.
I own a Harman Kardon AVR 2700, don't even need room correction, it sounds very good. Dolby Volume works very nice. I've owned a pioneer and a yamaha before, the HK sounds so much better, especially with music.
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post #98 of 129 Old 06-28-2014, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by redjr View Post
Or, pretty. Let's just hope the major wireless and cable companies will continue to build-out the infrastructure that's sadly lacking in all but major metropolitan areas of the US. I live 1 hour north of NYC and still can't get consistent reliable internet service! And the merger of Comcrapst and TWC is going to be a good thing? We need to see Google fiber in every corner of all 50 states.
My daughter lives 2-hours north of NYC. They do occasionally lose service for a short period, but other than that, their service is pretty good within the constraints of what we expect in the U.S. They have TWC (their only choice).

Unfortunately, it's doubtful that any American company is going to build out a quality infrastructure, especially in a low density area where it would take many years for payback and especially if they don't have any competition. While I personally think this is a mistake, because it's inevitable that there will be eventually be tech that could replace a cable line, like a 5" satellite dish, American companies look at the next quarter, not the long term.

I was at a SMPTE meeting a few weeks ago where they spoke about "over the top TV". One of the persons making the presentation claimed that Comcast just gave him a free upgrade to 50MB service and they also offer 100MB service, but I don't know where he lived. If Comcast is really going to offer that everywhere, that would be great, because using RCN in the city, advertised speed is much lower and actual speed never even comes close to advertised space. For web surfing it's fine as is (except for downloading large files). But for streaming movies in HD, even if starts out okay, about halfway into the movie, it starts to choke. I've always wondered if the cable company is detecting the huge data consumption and throttling the pipe, since it seems to happen pretty consistently.

At other people's homes, I noticed that both Verizon and Comcast had upload speeds equivalent to download speeds. RCN's upload speed is about a tenth of their download speed. (In my building, we only have a choice of RCN or TWC).

I'm not sure sure that I'd want to go with Google. Frankly, I don't trust them not to monitor all of my internet communications and not just when I use Google Search. Maybe that's paranoia, but they have a lousy track record at preserving privacy.
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post #99 of 129 Old 06-28-2014, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by zoetmb View Post
Primarily after-market and OEM car audio, which surprisingly makes them far more money than the home electronics business, which has been a lousy business for a really long time.

I'm actually surprised there's much of a business for after-market car audio, since most car audio systems today are tied into the HVAC system and the mapping system. That makes the OEM system very hard to replace. It's not like the days when the Japanese and European car makers all used the DIN standard and you just removed a few screws, pulled out the car radio and plugged in another.
and here it is...lol

as I said before .....after losing their A&* on Tv's...then having rough years on their home audio.....how long do you expect car audio to keep "paying the bills"?

I never understand why people on here don't understand that profitability is everything

All those tears in the Panasonic plasmas forums...LOL

the writing had been on the wall for years


Warren

Rm 1 Samsung 64F8500 Onkyo 5508 prepro Sherbourn 5/1500A amp Atlantic technology System 350 THX Ultra speakers
Rm 2 LG 47LE8500 Pioneer Denon 4520 Celestion 305 speaker system
Rm 3 Samsung 51E8000 Yamaha A2010 Kef 2005.2 speaker system
Rm 4 Panasonic 50ST50 Onkyo 5009/906 Mirage Omni sat speaker system
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post #100 of 129 Old 06-29-2014, 08:31 AM
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That's the one I have
I have never seen this model ?? I looked it up on Amazon ,and I cannot find one that has the same remote as the one in this thread? Can u tell me where u got this one with this same remote ?
thanks, Dabsim
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post #101 of 129 Old 06-29-2014, 11:29 AM
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I have never seen this model ?? I looked it up on Amazon ,and I cannot find one that has the same remote as the one in this thread? Can u tell me where u got this one with this same remote ?
thanks, Dabsim
SC-37 got mines in 2011
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post #102 of 129 Old 06-29-2014, 03:02 PM
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Thanks! I've had my SC 1222K for 5 months now and and everything I've added since then I feel like I nedd to get just a bit bigger? I have never seen this model!! Awesome!! This is all I can say. But does it sound better than the amp in the 1222k? It's the same isn't it? ?I'm thinking of adding an Emotiva 2 channel amp for just my fronts? ?? My Def Tech Super Towers would sound better would they not???
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post #103 of 129 Old 06-30-2014, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by zoetmb View Post
My daughter lives 2-hours north of NYC. They do occasionally lose service for a short period, but other than that, their service is pretty good within the constraints of what we expect in the U.S. They have TWC (their only choice).

Unfortunately, it's doubtful that any American company is going to build out a quality infrastructure, especially in a low density area where it would take many years for payback and especially if they don't have any competition. While I personally think this is a mistake, because it's inevitable that there will be eventually be tech that could replace a cable line, like a 5" satellite dish, American companies look at the next quarter, not the long term.

I was at a SMPTE meeting a few weeks ago where they spoke about "over the top TV". One of the persons making the presentation claimed that Comcast just gave him a free upgrade to 50MB service and they also offer 100MB service, but I don't know where he lived. If Comcast is really going to offer that everywhere, that would be great, because using RCN in the city, advertised speed is much lower and actual speed never even comes close to advertised space. For web surfing it's fine as is (except for downloading large files). But for streaming movies in HD, even if starts out okay, about halfway into the movie, it starts to choke. I've always wondered if the cable company is detecting the huge data consumption and throttling the pipe, since it seems to happen pretty consistently.

At other people's homes, I noticed that both Verizon and Comcast had upload speeds equivalent to download speeds. RCN's upload speed is about a tenth of their download speed. (In my building, we only have a choice of RCN or TWC).

I'm not sure sure that I'd want to go with Google. Frankly, I don't trust them not to monitor all of my internet communications and not just when I use Google Search. Maybe that's paranoia, but they have a lousy track record at preserving privacy.
Sounds like your daughter might live in or close to Albany? I lived there for 20 years, and had TWC since around ~ 2003. All I can say is that compared to Comcast, the TWC service was stellar! It just worked. All the time. Everytime. Cable, Internet and phone. I can't remember any short-to-medium length outages. We hardly ever had to reboot the modem or router. HD channels very seldom broke up with pixelation, in fact never did. I wish I could say the same for Comcast.

We've since moved to Western CT and the only service provider available in our area is Comcast - unless I want to go DSL (no thanks). As I mentioned in another thread, we've had Comcast for almost 1 year now, and the quality of the signal and internet reliability is abysmal. We've had tech after tech out to the house trying to figure out what the issue is and have been unsuccessful. We've gone days with no service! Let me also say one other thing... the Xfinity cable box and feature set is - IMHO - just not ready for prime time. Way to many unwanted features that partly work. It's a total waste of time. In fact, I'm thinking of going back to a non-recording basic box. Most people don't realize it and the tech confirmed it, but if you change the channel on the Xfinity remote, the signal travels down the wire, all the way to the closest Comcast CO, to their server, changes the channel, and then sends the new channel back to you! What kind of convoluted approach is that to simply changing the channel?! Urgh!

Finally, we got a 'real' tech (not contractor) that's been with Comcast for 15 yrs out to the house, and he installed a signal amplifier that mitigated most of our issues. He also terminated some dead drops, and told us that our other two non-Xfinity boxes were causing problems with the Xfinity one. We immediately took those out of service. The Internet still goes down, but does not stay down as long as it used to. But still, when you're in the middle of a purchase transaction and it goes down, you never know where you are when it comes back up! You need consistent reliability to function at any level on the Internet.

After spending a good hour at the house and swapping out modems and taking back a couple older boxes (that cause interference with the Xfinity box), we now have our Internet back up. Also, since I'm in the midst of finishing my new media/office space, he said, "When you get your SMC enclosure installed and all your new drops in place, give me a call and I'll come back out and install another amp (if needed in the SMC enclosure.") He gave us his personal phone number. He also said he works these chronic issue installs like ours on the weekend - with approval from his boss. I was happy!

To be fair and in the interest of full disclosure, we do live on the edge of the city limits, but Comcast still services the area. Semi-rural or not, if you say you offer service, and you're paying north of $200 every month I do have every right to expect a higher level of consistant and quality service.

Sorry for getting off-topic.

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post #104 of 129 Old 06-30-2014, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by zoetmb View Post
Primarily after-market and OEM car audio, which surprisingly makes them far more money than the home electronics business, which has been a lousy business for a really long time.

I'm actually surprised there's much of a business for after-market car audio, since most car audio systems today are tied into the HVAC system and the mapping system. That makes the OEM system very hard to replace. It's not like the days when the Japanese and European car makers all used the DIN standard and you just removed a few screws, pulled out the car radio and plugged in another.
You're right, there isn't much of a business for after market car audio. (I'm using your post discuss the OEM aspect; hope you don't mind...)

It's the OEM supplier that has to opportunity to print money and Pioneer is and has been primarily an OEM supplier for car audio and GPS units for years. I think this is an area of manufacturing and supply that is not very well understood here.

For example Honda builds Accords in the US. US Honda Accord production for 2013 was something like 250,000 vehicles. That's 250,000 radio/CD units that an OEM like Pioneer sold in one transaction. No worries for the OEM supplier for/about marketing campaigns, distribution channels for 100's of store fronts, customer service, returned product, etc. and the cost associated with these services. That's a conservative $25,000,000 sale assuming the radio sells for $100 per unit.

Keep in mind Honda has over 29 automobile manufacturing facilities spread world wide in some 15 different countries and the Accord is but one model they produce. The Accord is produced in most of the other factories as well. And BTW, Pioneer has/is an OEM supplier for Honda.

So multiply that example by the total number of automobiles made world wide by various manufactures and you have a huge market. Also keep in mind there are dozens of car models manufactured in the world that are not sold in the US.

The point is Sony, Harmon, Panasonic, Pioneer and others consider OEM automotive supply to be core business with a larger profit margin than CE sales.

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post #105 of 129 Old 06-30-2014, 10:07 AM
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If Pioneer's home electronics business shifts to Onkyo and Baring, does this mean that starting in 2015, Pioneer will no longer distribute their own receivers and Blu-ray players? If Onkyo plans on incorporating Pioneer's MCACC into their receivers, will they also incorporate Pioneer's PQLS into both their receivers and Blu-ray players? Also, would Onkyo Blu-ray players then be compatible with DVD-A and SACD and use the Pioneer GUI? I don't even know what type of stuff Baring specializes in. What's their role in home electronics?
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post #106 of 129 Old 06-30-2014, 11:22 AM
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If Pioneer's home electronics business shifts to Onkyo and Baring, does this mean that starting in 2015, Pioneer will no longer distribute their own receivers and Blu-ray players? If Onkyo plans on incorporating Pioneer's MCACC into their receivers, will they also incorporate Pioneer's PQLS into both their receivers and Blu-ray players? Also, would Onkyo Blu-ray players then be compatible with DVD-A and SACD and use the Pioneer GUI? I don't even know what type of stuff Baring specializes in. What's their role in home electronics?
Baring Private Equity Asia - a private equity company, think Bain Capital, The Blackstone Group, TPG Capital, etc.

These groups buy up almost dead companies or companies in financial trouble and work a turn-a-round if possible and sell the investment for profit.

I would assume Onkyo is interested in acquiring some technology but Baring Private Equity Asia is more or less holding the purse strings.

I would imagine the effort would be made, and it would probably be in Baring's best interest, to keep the Pioneer name alive.

Edit: Probably the best thing that could happen for Pioneer CE as the alternative would be closing or bankruptcy.

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post #107 of 129 Old 06-30-2014, 06:11 PM
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Before you give up on Pioneer, I'd read the latest news from Walkamo. He explains very clearly what's going on with Pioneer. So now, I am reconsidering the Elite VSX-80 and am going to wait for their flagship player!

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Hi BigC,

Pioneer is not shifting their Home Electronics Business to Baring and Onkyo. Baring has purchased 51% of Pioneer as an investment and Pioneer and Onkyo own the remaining 49%. The exact split has not been announced yet. Pioneer and Onkyo will remain separate brands and investments from Baring will give us the capital to invest in non-traditional areas.

As far as BD is concerned you will see new models (Even a new flagship) launch by the end of the year.

Here is a link to a good explanation of what is going on at Pioneer.

http://www.engadget.com/2014/06/24/p...ome-av-groups/

Chris Walker
Pioneer Electronics
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post #108 of 129 Old 06-30-2014, 10:36 PM
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So @Chris Walker , since someone else will own 51% and Onkyo a good portion of the rest, will they have any control over the build quality, features and Tech Support? A "renovation" would keep me interested.
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post #109 of 129 Old 07-01-2014, 06:16 AM
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One thing we have to remember is that just because we know our tech terms and as savy as some of us might be, this doesn't mean we understand business terms and are as savy when it comes to the business end of things. When companies release these press releases, in addition to their fancy business language, it would be helpful if they include in consumer English how the upcoming plans will affect the consumer.

Back in 2009 when Pioneer announced the optical disc joint venture with Sharp, we thought that all we'd see from Pioneer were players like the BDP-31FD/33FD/41FD/43FD/120/330/430/LX53/LX54--all Sharps masking as Pioneers and Pioneer Elites. We never thought we'd see better players like the BDP-52FD/53FD/62FD/140/150/160/170/440/450/LX55. Then a week ago, we were under the impression that Pioneer was bowing out of the home electronics business, shifting it over to Onkyo and Baring. Yesterday, Walkamo clears it up for us that Pioneer and Onkyo will still be home electronics brands, while Baring provides capital for nontraditional areas, and that Pioneer will release a flagship Blu-ray player by the end of the year. For those of us who became dependant on Pioneer between 2007 and 2009 with their inhouse designed high-performing players such as the BDP-05FD/09FD/23FD/51FD/320/LX52/LX71/LX91 and DV-48AV/49AV/58AV/300/310/320/400V/410V/420V/600AV/610AV/800V/LX50, it has been crazy--back in 2009 being concerned about what life would be like if all Pioneer players were like the Sharp-designed BDP-120, having our fears of 2009 confirmed in 2010 with the BDP-31FD/33FD/41FD/43FD/330/430/LX53/LX54, a surprise and being somewhat satisfied from 2011-2013 with the BDP-52FD/53FD/62FD/140/150/160/440/450/LX55 with no replacement in 2013 for the BDP-62FD/450, last week with the press announcement of the BDP-170 possibly being released in North America as an Elite BDP-80FD with the added bonus of a misconception not to expect anything new from Pioneer home electronics, and finally, yesterday's post by Walkamo suggesting that Pioneer will still be distributing home electronics and that we will see a flagship Blu-ray player by the end of the year. In short, Pioneer has kept us guessing for the past five years. Are they going down? Are they going to make somewhat of a comeback? Now that I think about it, it's almost as entertaining as a book, movie or TV show. Maybe that's because being that they've produced some good stuff for a good price many times, we can't help following them and holding our breath for their next big success.

Last edited by Big C; 07-01-2014 at 06:25 AM.
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post #110 of 129 Old 07-02-2014, 06:03 AM
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Interesting thread. As I understand the Pioneer Press Release, the private equity firm will be able to inject cash into the business for expansion purposes. The proof is always in the pudding so we shall see what this really means for the consumer.

"The two will "cope" with the shift in music playback trends through the strengths of their brand names and "superior technologies;" a private equity firm is also taking a controlling stake in Pioneer's home electronics division, so there will be cash available to expand the business."

A couple comments and observations:

  • I've been very happy with my Pioneer SC-65 AVR. I am now using it as a "Preamp" with my Wyred4Sound 7.1 MMC amplifier. Folks like Arnyk will say that this is overkill and that a simple AVR with around 90 wpc will suffice, but I've noticed an appreciable difference in separation and quality of sound at lower listening levels with the MMC. I haven't blind tested anything but I can tell you that my listening levels are lower compared to the AVR alone. And, SACD Multichannel music is incredible! Two channel listening sucks, but I'll address this later.
  • Audyssey & MCACC - - I'm not so sure what all the fuss is about. I've had both and I always end up tweaking my speakers to my listening preference. To me, it's just another tool - - an option to perfect your HT environment as best you can.
  • Streaming of movies - - there are two main reasons that I do not stream anything - - cost and quality. Especially with a projector setup. I can easily visit my local Redbox and for $1.52, walk out with a Bluray movie. I find that compression is a huge issue and that will also affect my future buying decisions.
  • Dolby Atmos - - not really on the wish list. If you have a big enough room, then great, go for it. I'd be happy with more 7.1 content.
  • Future wish list - - video wise, 4K/Ultra HD sounds great, but the cost and lack of content is a real killer right now. And I do not see the major cable companies investing a lot of $$$ to change this. The only hope for 4K/Ultra HD is HEVC (H.265) High Efficiency Video Coding - - and the ability to stream without sacrificing quality. I used to have Comcast cable here in metro Denver, but the quality was terrible and the customer service atrocious. Comcast blew off two appointments to meet me at home around five years ago. I switched to Directv and never looked back. Much better audio tracks. Once I installed a "dish heater," I've been able to enjoy movies & sports in the wintertime without having to go up on the roof and clean the dish. GENIE service is cool!

O.K. - the fun part! My wish list which is probably five years out due to technology -

80" 4K/Ultra HD TV that is H.265 compliant. This might put my projector out of business as I am limited to a 100" 16 X 9 screen due to the size of my man cave in the basement.

Preamp - to be future proof, you really need the 2.0 HDMI specification. I would be ecstatic if I could find a Preamp with bass management with bypass at a reasonable cost. I am still unsure of how well this works in a digital world - - even using the analog outputs. This would be for two channel music listening only.

I know there are Preamps that handle bass management right now but my upgrade path is based on 4K/Ultra HD content being available like HD content is now. And I think that is at least five years away. I'd love to be proven wrong.

Lastly - - I have a good friend who is replacing his AVR in a 5.1 setup. He doesn't have an overly expensive speaker setup and his current AVR is an older Yamaha with no HDMI inputs/outputs. So, I recommended the Pioneer VSX-1124K - - primarily due to the HDMI 2.0 specification and the fact that he doesn't need much power and he holds on to his equipment for 8 to 10 years.

HT is a hobby for me and I really enjoy getting the most out of my setup and learning from everyone on AVS Forum. Cheers to great movies, sports and entertainment!

Best - Rico

Home Theater Setup
Samsung UN65ES8000 LCD/LED
BenQ W1080ST Projector
Pioneer SC65 (Pre-Amp)
Wyred4Sound MMC-7 Channel Amplifier, 221wpc
OPPO 103, Directv GENIE
Darbee Darblet
ALL Paradigm - 7.1 - Studio 60's, V.2 (FL/FR)
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post #111 of 129 Old 07-06-2014, 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Big C View Post
One thing we have to remember is that just because we know our tech terms and as savy as some of us might be, this doesn't mean we understand business terms and are as savy when it comes to the business end of things. When companies release these press releases, in addition to their fancy business language, it would be helpful if they include in consumer English how the upcoming plans will affect the consumer.

Back in 2009 when Pioneer announced the optical disc joint venture with Sharp, we thought that all we'd see from Pioneer were players like the BDP-31FD/33FD/41FD/43FD/120/330/430/LX53/LX54--all Sharps masking as Pioneers and Pioneer Elites. We never thought we'd see better players like the BDP-52FD/53FD/62FD/140/150/160/170/440/450/LX55. Then a week ago, we were under the impression that Pioneer was bowing out of the home electronics business, shifting it over to Onkyo and Baring. Yesterday, Walkamo clears it up for us that Pioneer and Onkyo will still be home electronics brands, while Baring provides capital for nontraditional areas, and that Pioneer will release a flagship Blu-ray player by the end of the year. For those of us who became dependant on Pioneer between 2007 and 2009 with their inhouse designed high-performing players such as the BDP-05FD/09FD/23FD/51FD/320/LX52/LX71/LX91 and DV-48AV/49AV/58AV/300/310/320/400V/410V/420V/600AV/610AV/800V/LX50, it has been crazy--back in 2009 being concerned about what life would be like if all Pioneer players were like the Sharp-designed BDP-120, having our fears of 2009 confirmed in 2010 with the BDP-31FD/33FD/41FD/43FD/330/430/LX53/LX54, a surprise and being somewhat satisfied from 2011-2013 with the BDP-52FD/53FD/62FD/140/150/160/440/450/LX55 with no replacement in 2013 for the BDP-62FD/450, last week with the press announcement of the BDP-170 possibly being released in North America as an Elite BDP-80FD with the added bonus of a misconception not to expect anything new from Pioneer home electronics, and finally, yesterday's post by Walkamo suggesting that Pioneer will still be distributing home electronics and that we will see a flagship Blu-ray player by the end of the year. In short, Pioneer has kept us guessing for the past five years. Are they going down? Are they going to make somewhat of a comeback? Now that I think about it, it's almost as entertaining as a book, movie or TV show. Maybe that's because being that they've produced some good stuff for a good price many times, we can't help following them and holding our breath for their next big success.
I have had a few of those players you mentioned...05...51...52...62
The former two had some very good video scaling...but could be very buggy

The later two offered things like SACD...but the online interface was something that resembled a Best Buy branded Insignia player. I myself cant hear the difference in PQLS in a double blind test
2009..as I recall was bad year for Pioneer. They had not long before then shuttered their Plasma TV business that had been losing money. The remainder of their home A/V business wasn't doing well either
I doubt we will really know what will happen in the future with them now that this acquisition has taken place
The management probably doesn't even know at this time...no matter what their press releases say

One thing is for sure though..private equity firms dont like to have poor performing portfolios.
You can rest assured they will make whatever changes necessary to raise the value of the company

Including selling off pieces of it that are not performing financially


Warren

Rm 1 Samsung 64F8500 Onkyo 5508 prepro Sherbourn 5/1500A amp Atlantic technology System 350 THX Ultra speakers
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Rm 3 Samsung 51E8000 Yamaha A2010 Kef 2005.2 speaker system
Rm 4 Panasonic 50ST50 Onkyo 5009/906 Mirage Omni sat speaker system
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post #112 of 129 Old 07-17-2014, 07:01 PM
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What a bad underwhelmingly presented news overall ... Thanks Mark for the coverage.

I mean... Pioneer , to me , has always been exactly that. A pioneer.

So, thinking that majoritarily share-holders that were previously unrelated to the group will have the possibility to eventually block innovation makes me want to regurgitate.

Add to that the fact that major rivals ( Onkyo !) are possessing a share of the remainder... Multiple possibilities of blockades from multiple interested parties. So, an Administration council comprising of new buyers only striving for top profit and former rivals are going to drive the company forward? I highly doubt it.

Onkyo will have limited powers of course, but enough to try to derail potentially damaging competition... Seldomly an Hydra can successfully manage a behemoth without collateral damage.

Maybe I'm wrong, and maybe the transition will be fluid. But sure thing, Pioneer isn't going to be the same...

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post #113 of 129 Old 08-03-2014, 01:44 AM
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I wonder what they will be selling now
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post #114 of 129 Old 08-03-2014, 04:15 AM
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Pioneer receivers peaked in 1980, FYI.

SX980,SX1050,SX 3900 here all in good order and work well those are REAL TANKS not SCxxx

Although those Ice amps SC are real decent and the real deal sound wise !
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post #115 of 129 Old 08-03-2014, 06:09 AM
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After searching the web, I haven't found anything about what Pioneer plans on showing at CEDIA or IFA this year. It's the beginning of August. Shouldn't at least roomers of such info have been leaked by now by Pioneer, AVS, AVForums, Engadgets, AudioHolics, HomeTheaterForum, TrustedReviews, WhatHiFi, etc.? If we don't get word by October, I think I'm going to get the new VSX-80 and couple it with a used BDP-52FD. That way, I know I'll be getting the audio/video quality (Sabre Premier ES9006 120dB DACs and 1080p/24 support), speed/functionality, format compatibility, and features (such as 480i via HDMI for playing DVDs, and PQLS bitstream for lossless movie audio codecs and the best DSD-to-analog conversion via HDMI) which meets the demands I've had for years. I know this year's lineup doesn't support HDCP 2.2, but (1) after some long waiting, the distributors are finally releasing Blu-ray editions of stuff I've owned on DVD for years, (2) I've heard that new 4K disc players won't be compatible with DVDs, which I have a lot of, and (3) considering what I had to go through (and still am) to add Blu-ray editions of DVD titles, I don't think it's worth it to go through the same thing going from Blu-ray to 4k discs. I can't fit any of the 4K TVs in my shelf. Except for streaming, I'm not aware of any TV stations that broadcast in 4K at this time. I don't have room to set up for Dolby Atmos. So unless they decide to record movie audio at 96 or 192 KHz, I don't think I'd gain anything with the new audio codecs to be used with 4K discs. Therefore, how long before not being HDCP 2.2 compliant would become a problem?

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post #116 of 129 Old 08-03-2014, 06:32 AM
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SX980,SX1050,SX 3900 here all in good order and work well those are REAL TANKS not SCxxx

Although those Ice amps SC are real decent and the real deal sound wise !
I would beg to differ

top models from 2002-2003 were the real tanks

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PU...vers/VSX-49TXi


Warren

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Rm 2 LG 47LE8500 Pioneer Denon 4520 Celestion 305 speaker system
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post #117 of 129 Old 08-03-2014, 01:18 PM
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SX980,SX1050,SX 3900 here all in good order and work well those are REAL TANKS not SCxxx

Although those Ice amps SC are real decent and the real deal sound wise !
Very nice. SX 1050 here. High Five!

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post #118 of 129 Old 08-05-2014, 06:56 AM
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Before you give up on Pioneer, I'd read the latest news from Walkamo. He explains very clearly what's going on with Pioneer. So now, I am reconsidering the Elite VSX-80 and am going to wait for their flagship player!
Pioneer is not what they use to be. Period.

home theater addict
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post #119 of 129 Old 08-05-2014, 09:34 PM
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Pioneer is not what they use to be. Period.
Unless they physically take the product line back to when it was really good, it's a moot point. They can say all they want, it still doesn't matter. Pioneer is no longer a player in the field. Now Yamaha, that was my brand before Pioneer, it's still great and they are still supporting gear that is years old. Unlike Pioneer. I'm being told that my year old 1222K is no longer supported and all the bugs that should have been taken care of, won't be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EscapeVelocity
"Pioneer receivers peaked in 1980, FYI."
My 2003 VSX-D909S is still the most amazing thing. I was hoping that my S1222K would be a 2012 version. No such luck. Also my 3 late 90's VSX-9300's are just as good and still working strong. So I think Pioneer took the dive in the late 00's? The only problem with my old gear is that is not HDMI or have the newer audio codex. Otherwise . . . "PERFECT!"

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post #120 of 129 Old 08-12-2014, 10:00 AM
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After searching for Pioneer at IFA and CEDIA 2014, nothing comes up for CEDIA. WhatHiFi lists everyone who'll be at IFA, but Pioneer wasn't on the list. I was going to wait til mid September to see what Pioneer's plans are, but I don't know if I can rely on IFA and CEDIA 2014 for help with those decisions if they're not going to be at either event. Is my assumption correct that they won't be at either event this year? Is it safe to assume that their A/V receiver and Blu-ray player 2014 lineups are final at this time and that I should choose from what they have at this point?
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