UHD/4K Quandary: To Buy or Not to Buy - Page 28 - AVS Forum
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post #811 of 1786 Old 08-03-2014, 02:37 PM
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this is not at simple. you can see alasing on a 1080p very early. alasing shouldn't be in any BD, but there is alasing this is an mastering issue. and that's why you can use a UHD display to stop it from appearing. a source with tons of alasing (pc games) benefit from this even from normal distances. of cause you can simply render the game in UHD and present is them as 1080p and all alasing is gone X-) but this is another topic.

have a look at this screen shoot: http://international.download.nvidia...iasing-Off.png

the pic is about 4 mb

you can see the alasing easily even from far it's so extrem...
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post #812 of 1786 Old 08-03-2014, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
I've stood right next to David, with vision test charts showing on 1080p and 2160p TVs of the same size, from the same manufacturer, and agreed we saw the same things as we scrutinized the two TVs from various distances. I'm not dealing with theory, I'm talking about observations, under controlled conditions, of 2014 HDTVs and UHDTVs.
You think you're dealing directly with observations and not theory, but this is not the case. Your test is designed so that it could only have one result, since any extra detail shown in the 4k pictures would be too small for a human to see. What kind of experiment is that? The result couldn't have come out in any different way. You're just engaged in confirming your biases.

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post #813 of 1786 Old 08-03-2014, 02:39 PM
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4k resolution is visible on 55" tv from 9' away.

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/4k-re...1312153517.htm

There is what they all want to say. Then there is reality. When they actually test something.

I have an eagle eye. Always have. I can dust particles in the air with great ease and detail.

I can see the difference. I sit 8 to 9 ft away and have a 65".

The point of 4k is get closer and see more detail. A cinematic experience. What's all this stand further back stuff?

Heck if you blur your eyes any picture can look equal.
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post #814 of 1786 Old 08-03-2014, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Calibration remains 100% relevant for UHD/4K TVs. There's no getting around the fact that TVs cannot be accurate out of the box due to variations in electronic components, or that all content is mastered to an accepted standard, one that you are free to ignore but exists nonetheless. Also, professional reviewers are ahead of the curve on all things UHD/4K, when compared to a consumer such as yourself. I guarantee it.
If they are so ahead of the curve then why do OPINION vary so much?

A consumer such as myself usually know and understand sets way more than a simple reviewer who has a short period of time with a set. Or worse has grown to generalize all set technology into thinking it can be calibrated the exact same way even though technically the range for such things as color and contrast are greater but that is not taken into account t.

The experts are the real issue. They are no longer truly the experts. Those guys are throughout this forum and others. The hobbyist who truly get to know a set.

Or you get paid to review certain brands or lay biased to one or the other.

But it's us who spend thousands of dollars on these sets who spend countless hours with them who are true experts.
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post #815 of 1786 Old 08-03-2014, 02:57 PM
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http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/4k-re...1312153517.htm - out of 49 attendees, 48 guessed correctly the UHD display. But imagic and Dave Katz can't. I am sorry, this is getting funny.
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post #816 of 1786 Old 08-03-2014, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Mrorange303 View Post
If they are so ahead of the curve then why do OPINION vary so much?

A consumer such as myself usually know and understand sets way more than a simple reviewer who has a short period of time with a set. Or worse has grown to generalize all set technology into thinking it can be calibrated the exact same way even though technically the range for such things as color and contrast are greater but that is not taken into account t.

The experts are the real issue. They are no longer truly the experts. Those guys are throughout this forum and others. The hobbyist who truly get to know a set.

Or you get paid to review certain brands or lay biased to one or the other.

But it's us who spend thousands of dollars on these sets who spend countless hours with them who are true experts.
You don't become an expert in TV technology by buying one and watching it for countless hours. Understanding the ins and outs of TV technology is not as simple as reading the manual and tweaking a few user settings.

AVS has plenty of highly knowledgeable members who understand how TVs work, and the purpose of calibration and color standards, as well as the pros and cons of each technology. You can find quite a few of them in the calibration forums. However, to count yourself among them would require that you embrace the very things you reject, and that you stop hurling insults at qulaified professionals, who honestly do know a lot more about TVs than typical enthusiasts do, no matter how psyched those enthusiasts are about their expensive new TVs.

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post #817 of 1786 Old 08-03-2014, 03:06 PM
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Explain this?

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post #818 of 1786 Old 08-03-2014, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
this is not at simple. you can see alasing on a 1080p very early. alasing shouldn't be in any BD, but there is alasing this is an mastering issue. and that's why you can use a UHD display to stop it from appearing.
And here I thought the goal was to faithfully reproduce what is on the disc as accurately as possible, not blur the content. The sort of enhancement very high end scaling can provide to HD content when scaling it to UHD (which very likely isn't in the mainstream UHD sets people are buying) isn't going to do much of anything to eliminate shallow line aliasing. Sure it could smooth out a 45 degree angle line but those shouldn't look aliased on a 1080p set from a reasonable viewing distance anyhow.
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post #819 of 1786 Old 08-03-2014, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by vddobrev View Post
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/4k-re...1312153517.htm - out of 49 attendees, 48 guessed correctly the UHD display. But imagic and Dave Katz can't. I am sorry, this is getting funny.
Too bad they didn't also do something more useful like seeing if those extra pixels really made 1080p video better since that's the vast majority of what the UHD sets will be playing.
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post #820 of 1786 Old 08-03-2014, 03:25 PM
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i don't think up scaling a BD from 1080p to 2160 is an quality improvement it can do this it can distroy a lot too...

i'm just giving a example of content that is improved by UHD and that alaising is visible with PC game content the screen doesn't use any type of anti alasing just to show the effect better.

i'm just talking about the improvement for games nothing more. a very small thing for UHD TV. problems with connectivity you know what i mean X-) is the bigger problem computer games in 4:2:0 no thank you...
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post #821 of 1786 Old 08-03-2014, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by vddobrev View Post
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/4k-re...1312153517.htm - out of 49 attendees, 48 guessed correctly the UHD display. But imagic and Dave Katz can't. I am sorry, this is getting funny.
That's a false claim. I never said that.

Also, HDTVtest just recently crowned the ZT60 plasma the best TV.
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post #822 of 1786 Old 08-03-2014, 03:32 PM
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But it's us who spend thousands of dollars on these sets who spend countless hours with them who are true experts.
No, it works just the other way. The more you spend, the less objective you are, because it becomes so painful to admit that you may have misspent on devices that don't actually deliver a better picture (or better sound). The time you spend trying to confirm a theory is also a kind of investment, and leaves you less able to see what the facts actually say.

The best way to get at the truth is to do exactly what we are doing here. Gather people with different views and let them argue.
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post #823 of 1786 Old 08-03-2014, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
I've stood right next to David, with vision test charts showing on 1080p and 2160p TVs of the same size, from the same manufacturer, and agreed we saw the same things as we scrutinized the two TVs from various distances. I'm not dealing with theory, I'm talking about observations, under controlled conditions, of 2014 HDTVs and UHDTVs.
Didn't you say you did not see a difference? I concluded that if you participated in the hdtvtest, you could not have guessed the UHD tv. Sorry if I made a wrong conclusion.
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post #824 of 1786 Old 08-03-2014, 03:39 PM
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Didn't you say you did not see a difference? I concluded that if you participated in the hdtvtest, you could not have guessed the UHD tv. Sorry if I made a wrong conclusion.
Are you confusing David Katzmaier from CNET with David Mackenzie, the reviewer from HDTVtest?

I'll be at the Value Electronics shootout.

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post #825 of 1786 Old 08-03-2014, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
You don't become an expert in TV technology by buying one and watching it for countless hours. Understanding the ins and outs of TV technology is not as simple as reading the manual and tweaking a few user settings.

AVS has plenty of highly knowledgeable members who understand how TVs work, and the purpose of calibration and color standards, as well as the pros and cons of each technology. You can find quite a few of them in the calibration forums. However, to count yourself among them would require that you embrace the very things you reject, and that you stop hurling insults at qulaified professionals, who honestly do know a lot more about TVs than typical enthusiasts do, no matter how psyched those enthusiasts are about their expensive new TVs.
no we do by diagnosing problems and having solutions. If I asked you how to get the best picture out of the hu9000 right now? The calibrations are not the answer. People are using their own settings. Look in the forums. There is plent of calibrations. Those same owners keep changing the settings away from the calibration.

Not just one person. Keep in mind I said my 4k is not calibrated. I also said I don't agree using the older calibrations give you the best picture from the 4k sets. Many again don't agree.

They also own the set. Take a trip to the owners forum. Samsung and Sony. They also apparently are just owners who can tell you about their sets in a way that you cannot speak to them about.

The Panasonic ax800 I'm sure you would eat my lunch.

Overall plasma and it's benefits you have all day.

Samsung and Sony 4k sets. You are not an expert on. Katz is not either.

Although I give him more credit with the curved samsung then the sony.

Only because I know he lived with it for a month.

But again trying to mimic a plasma picture and you know it.

It's strengths are new. You and DK both miss the point and don't agree with others who are seeing it.
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post #826 of 1786 Old 08-03-2014, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Are you confusing David Katzmaier from CNET with David Mackenzie, the reviewer from HDTVtest?
Oops.

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Good luck, but honestly, would you be able to tell which is the 4K set?
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No, it works just the other way. The more you spend, the less objective you are, because it becomes so painful to admit that you may have misspent on devices that don't actually deliver a better picture (or better sound). The time you spend trying to confirm a theory is also a kind of investment, and leaves you less able to see what the facts actually say.

The best way to get at the truth is to do exactly what we are doing here. Gather people with different views and let them argue.
Are you joking heck no I'm not. Oled. Oled.

Really though I just mean how intimate you get with your own set as an owner.

If your familiar with my post you know I own the hu9000. Gladly admit the sony has a slightly better picture and plasma will always be standard with motion.

I'm just saying an expert is not going to say 4k and 1080p have no visible difference. That's not an expert I'm going to listen to. It's just not.

I'm not more credible the. Them.

I'm just not having to say hey your an expert. There is good and bad in all industry.

I'm just saying. Not imagic himself. I'm just saying he isn't an hu9000 expert. That's all.

I still know he knows his stuff and can eat me up that way.

I mean there are people who can enlighten anyone I the owners forum. They also know great amounts of info.

And own the set so they correct issues. Help with settings and support.

Like thank many plasma EXPERTS IN HERE. Look at all these guys who have all the answers. All know 4k so well.
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post #828 of 1786 Old 08-03-2014, 03:50 PM
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Oops.



Good luck, but honestly, would you be able to tell which is the 4K set?
It depends on the content and the viewing distance.
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post #829 of 1786 Old 08-03-2014, 03:54 PM
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It depends on the content and the viewing distance.
50" from 9 feet, various content just like the hdtvtest.
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But again trying to mimic a plasma picture and you know it.
didn't i already told you a plasma has nothing to do with calibration and never will have...
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post #831 of 1786 Old 08-03-2014, 04:16 PM
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didn't i already told you a plasma has nothing to do with calibration and never will have...
I'm not argue g that no one. Is.. Im saying that when you read a Katz article that's where he is coming from.. It's very true.
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post #832 of 1786 Old 08-03-2014, 04:18 PM
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50" from 9 feet, various content just like the hdtvtest.
That would be equivalent to twelve feet away on a 65-incher, which is about the distance where the UHD/4K benefit disappears with TVs that size.

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post #833 of 1786 Old 08-03-2014, 04:26 PM
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That would be equivalent to twelve feet away on a 65-incher, which is about the distance where the UHD/4K benefit disappears with TVs that size.
This does not answer my question though. In your opinion, then, how were these 48 out of 49 people able to tell which the UHD set was?
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Mrorange303 he is not a hu9000 expert but he have many years of experience as a professional photographer.

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If your familiar with my post you know I own the hu9000. Gladly admit the sony has a slightly better picture and plasma will always be standard with motion.
i thing my lightboost hacked asus VG248 can easily match plasma in motion so i still see a chance with the next couple of sonys with impulse mode to match plasma like motion or even CRT like motion with a couple of other problems...

Quote:
I'm just saying an expert is not going to say 4k and 1080p have no visible difference. That's not an expert I'm going to listen to. It's just not.
difference and better picture are to totally difference things. if you sit close to a UHD screen you can use more of the pixel and the upscaled 1080p picture different for obvious reasons its rescaled so it's changed. and true UHD content is a different story too.

but in the end the current UHDs still lose in direct comparison even with UHD test material sad but true. looks like the pixel can't make up for the bad CR and the other problems... at least for people at these uk site you like to post.

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Like thank many plasma EXPERTS IN HERE. Look at all these guys who have all the answers. All know 4k so well.
not a lot to learn about only pixel the big things come later.

and some expert are used to 2560x1440 screen for year and even higher color gamuts like adobe RGB. so selling edge lit screen with more pixel wasn't something to go crazy for.

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If I asked you how to get the best picture out of the hu9000 right now? The calibrations are not the answer. People are using their own settings. Look in the forums. There is plent of calibrations. Those same owners keep changing the settings away from the calibration.

Not just one person. Keep in mind I said my 4k is not calibrated. I also said I don't agree using the older calibrations give you the best picture from the 4k sets. Many again don't agree.
i'm not sure you understand calibration. calibration and some settings is not the point calibration needs a lot of time and each TV needs different calibration even with the same model. they drift a little from model to model and from time. so redoing your calibration every ~6 month is important too.

what is an old calibration can you please make that more clear?

how do you get a calibration from the forum are you sharing icc profiles for PC or what? or are you talking about general settings people come up and call "calibration"?
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post #836 of 1786 Old 08-03-2014, 04:59 PM
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So you're sitting closer than 8 feet from a 65"? Eye distance? I just measured my seating distance in my media room and it's just about 8ft from glass to backrest and there's just enough room to slide between the ottoman and entertainment rack to change discs. I can't really imagine sitting closer I'd be propping my feet on my center channel!

And this is in your living room? You're the one without the media room right? How does anyone else see the screen with you sitting that close? Especially with the off angle falloff inherent to LCD? I'd think you'd want to sit back a ways to allow more people in the 'sweeter' spot.
My recliner is off to the right of the wall mounted TV, and the mount has an arm and pivot to adjust the display so it's facing the recliner. I move it in and out every day.

When I had my plasma up there my "eye" distance was around 8.5 feet, but with the 65" Sony I find myself sitting close enough to where my feet can touch the bottom of the TV. Obviously if I'm watching this close I'm watching it alone.

The TV when retracted faces the couch, which is about 11-12 feet away.
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viewing distance
''We consulted with Chris Heinonen, creator of the de facto 4K calculator, who suggested imposing a distance of 8 to 9 feet though it's theoretically beyond the visual acuity for 4K on a 55'' screen''
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/4k-10...1311153442.htm

third
''the difference was not night and day, but we could tell even from 9 feet away.''

Does this mean that 4K represents a improvement over 1080p at 9 feet from a 55'' TV? Not by definition, because being able tell the difference and benefits is not the same thing..You probably won't see much of a difference..but it is there..
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/4k-re...1312153517.htm
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I would think that there was more than a simple resolution difference in that blind test. Visual acuity (assuming 20/20 vision) at certain distances is not a "theory" and there's no way 48 out of 49 people would tell on a 55" from 8-9 feet away unless there was another factor which steered people toward the 4k set.
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I would think that there was more than a simple resolution difference in that blind test. Visual acuity (assuming 20/20 vision) at certain distances is not a "theory" and there's no way 48 out of 49 people would tell on a 55" from 8-9 feet away unless there was another factor which steered people toward the 4k set.
A lot of people test better than 20/20, at least in one eye. Even people who wear glasses/contacts or have Lasik surgery sometimes achieve a correction that is beyond 20/20. On the other hand, when you've got 50 people, the average is likely to be 20/20.

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post #840 of 1786 Old 08-03-2014, 06:39 PM
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Plasma settings. You mean tried to get the sets to display the closest picture to your reference plasma.

Not my idea condition. Reference has changed. Tv has changed.

Material is shot at sharper resolutions and higher frame rates. Our sets take advantage of it. Let's not avoid that.
I mean... Wow.

Mark, (Imagic) thanks for taking the time to (attempt to) return this discussion to one of rationality and moderation. I know I'm not the most level headed individual and I frequently put my foot in my mouth around here but THIS... I don't know how to even argue with THIS anymore. I'm not sure if this is a willful disregard of the facts presented or a failure to comprehend what is being argued but we're 20 pages in at this point and, yet, here we are with a post like this.

Someone a long time ago warned me about arguing with people on the internet-- it goes something along the lines of: "they'll bring you down to their level and beat you with experience". I've been beaten.

MrOrange has declared himself an expert despite having no training and possessing no certifications besides owning a display. Well I own a car so I guess I'm going to go racing next week because gosh-darnit I'm an expert-- I drive everyday! For this reason I will no longer point out to mrOrange that the fundamental technology of how an LCD produces a picture hasn't actually changed at all and that the only thing that a 4k LCD guarantees is a higher resolution than 1080p-- everything else that he's attributing to the 4k spec has absolutely nothing to do with the the 4k spec and has only to do with variation in setup and quality differences between models.
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