UHD/4K Quandary: To Buy or Not to Buy - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 2289 Old 07-21-2014, 09:19 AM
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ISF rating the order of importance of various image quality parameters is a subjective determination by a body that I think is the expression mainly of one individual. The content one watches and the size of the display, seating distances, room conditions and the sensitivities of the viewer determine ones order of importance. I suppose one could collect a random cross section of viewers and do detailed studies as the the groups assessment of importance but as soon as you narrow the group to experienced videophiles, I suspect there would be differences in the ordering of importance.In the test for ISF certification for calibrators you actually have to memorize and spew back the list as if were verified gospel from above.
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post #62 of 2289 Old 07-21-2014, 09:25 AM
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I'm not planning on replacing any of my existing TVs with a 4K. At least not until 4K content is playable in blu-ray. But, if one of my TVs breaks and I need to replace it, I'll get a 4K TV. The price difference isn't that great and I can see a difference between 4K content and 1080 content. 4K content looks much better to my eyes.
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post #63 of 2289 Old 07-21-2014, 09:44 AM
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All of you above posters sure give a lot of food for thought.

From my perspective, I wont be considering buying in the near future a higher definition TV (>1080p) as mine works quite well - 65"VT50. I do want to keep up on what is happening with the newer technologies and screen so that when the time comes, I am up to speed on what to look for in terms of specs and reviews.

Given that many of us are into a fair investment in 1080p content, to get me to move to higher def would be more about how these newer TVs will handle 1080p and if* the technology might even produce a better picture. I don't know the latest jargon or true terms for TV (moving image displays) but having a background in photography and using software to generate "improved" images, I would hope that the TVs we are discussing here could do much the same with respect to gamut, border contrast manipulation and better dithering.

As for whether plasma should be in the discussion - I believe it should for a simple reason, if you want people to abandon their plasmas it is best to give them a good reason.

When it comes to making these purchases, I suppose many will be thinking of what else they will need to buy - AVR, possibly introduction of new media players (akin to Blu Ray etc.). It seems to me (please do correct me if I am wrong) that the AVR may be the last to go if* the source of the high def media allows for audio out on standard HDMI and then HDMI2x video out direct to the new TV. I suppose Oppo down the line might produce a "4K" player that will work this way.

Streaming media - Folks like Netflix say they offer 4K but what really is the source? Are these faithful true 4k transfers or up-converted 1080p sources? Given that Netflix has some question disc content for rent, it will remain quite suspect as to being of any advantage. Netflix continues to have offerings of 1080p discs that don't offer the HD audio tracks (often found with Lionsgate offerings) and absolutely the most wretched DVDs of older films that look like someone videotaped a television. The point is that there are no standards for minimum level of quality on streaming services or simply a "standard."

Tonight, I have friends over for a nice evening of The Fellowship of the Rings extended playing on my VT50 65", surround audio (Goldenear speakers, Marantz AVR) and I doubt any of my guests would say - "gee I wish I could see this with a better picture and better sound."
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post #64 of 2289 Old 07-21-2014, 10:08 AM
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I can't think of any good reason to buy a 4K TV right now. Of course if you have the money, and don't need a good reason, there's nothing to recommend against it either.

To be perfectly honest, even after the color space is expanded, and there's a ton of native content, I still don't feel like it even approaches the difference between SD/HD.

Even though I can already self-produce the native content (4K PC games), it's still a really tough sell to me until it supports a variable refresh rate capable of at least 100fps@4K. Not even HDMI 2.0 can push that many pixels, nor have they stated any support for VRR.
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post #65 of 2289 Old 07-21-2014, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmReverie View Post
Actually discussing plasmas in this thread is entirely relevant to the discussion at hand. Why 4k is not worth it to many is the issues that lcd has, that plasmas do not have. Furthermore the reason people are interested in 4k is superior pq. Yet at the same time in shoot outs several plasmas where consistently considered superior in this regard then any 4k television. This is a thread about whether one thinks 4k tv's of today are worth it, which invariably will involve discussing it in comparison with today's plasmas, oleds and 1080p lcds, all of which are all relevant to the discussion. Repeating "stop" will not make your point any more valid and the discussion of plasma any less relevant.
I think you missed the previous exchange-- in fact I fall into the group you describe as I bought a VT60 late last year. That's how enthusiastic I was for 4k!

What I'm totally not interested in seeing is a string of posts parading every perceived issue with plasma as some sort of explanation for the opinion that 4k TVs automatically produce a better picture because 4k > 1080p.
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post #66 of 2289 Old 07-21-2014, 10:47 AM
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I believe this UHD thing needs to be a slow and evolutionary change...


that is, when my TV's EVENTUALLY need to be replaced, due to wear, moving, wanting a bigger size, etc. then opting for a UHD tv over an HDTV, assuming the UHD tv is actually better, and not just higher resolution, then i'll view it the same way I look at 720p vs 1080p today. why the heck wouldn't I buy it? I always want to buy the best I can for my needs, so it only makes sense to get the higher resolution, if all else is equal.


but there is NOTHING about what I've seen from UHD tv that makes me want to upgrade my current TV's. in MANY ways, the UHD TV's would be massive downgrades from what I have and how I use them currently. I am a believer than no scaling is better than upscaling, so as long as I'm viewing 1080p content (at best), there's no point in UHD TV for me. To me, owning a UHD TV right now is like owning a Ferrari in winter. it's awesome, probably, but how would I ever know, I don't get to use it...
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post #67 of 2289 Old 07-21-2014, 10:59 AM
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What I don't get is when people say that watching 4K content on a 2K TV over 2K content it actually looks better................
Where is the extra information coming from to make it a better picture? Or is it just placebo?
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post #68 of 2289 Old 07-21-2014, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc Wielage View Post
Your message should be engraved on a gold plaque. It's incredible to me how we're in this endless race for maximum resolution, but they're forgetting all the other things that matter: colorimetry, color temperature, black level detail, freedom from motion artifacts, grey scale accuracy, and so on. For 2% the cost of adding 4K, they could just provide a reasonable Rec709 preset that actually produces something close to reality.

But instead, they throw in more bells and whistles, rather than giving viewers an accurate picture based on real industry standards. Sad.
The gold plaque is a good idea. But all it needs to say is NO MORE SCREEN GLARE!

What's incredible to me is how this issue never comes up, I am assuming you are putting it under the catagory of "and so on". Sad.

I can only assume people around here have gotten used to watching tv in darkened rooms with dark clothes on.

From a review of a Phillips set with motheye...

46PFL9707 in fact has another even more unique feature which delighted us: the Moth Eye filter. The microscopic structure of the filter allows light to be diffused across a wider area on the panel, posing less of a threat to the image.

The vivid, clean nature of the pictures this allows the Philips 9707 to present is genuinely special: we’re so used to seeing latent reflections on TV screens – even LCDs, but especially Plasmas, which can suffer greatly in bright rooms – when we view them in brighter environments, that to some extent, we do our best to mentally tune them out.

So, seeing the 46PFL9707T’s images, which are actually free of them, is an eye-opening experience. You can watch this display in a light-flooded room, and the picture will appear remarkably lucid and free of distracting reflections. We usually recommend LED LCD televisions for use in bright rooms, but this is especially the case with the Philips 46PFL9707. It’s probably the best bright-room HDTV we’ve ever tested."
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/phili...1304042732.htm

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post #69 of 2289 Old 07-21-2014, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Mrorange303 View Post
I was hoping for a more evolved read. I think it would be ill advised to take a 1080p set knowing its just a matter of time for that resolution.
Any 1080p content usually looks better on a 4k set. Why buy a new outdated tv?
I think this also goes toe and toe with most 4k sets. Samsung has removed the brains making the line up upgradable at a fairly low cost and also leaves a much larger window for a set that complys with 4k standards.

The samsungs have spectacular 3d. Active 3d provides a bright, crisp 3d picture that is greater bluray when it comes to immersion.

No 1080p set makes 3d close to the same quality.

Netflix has already begun to release content.

The sets that support it really shine. The future won't be les and less 4k. It will be less and less 1080p content. Why not at least have a set that comes with a nice new viewing experience if it is available at an affordable price?

Those people who all ran out and bought 720 plasmas and eArly LCDs quickly had 1080 sets shortly after because of one thing resolution.

If we were talking anything else I would understand but resolution jumps are important and should be the first thing we consider now that 4k sets are available. Sorry but it's true. That will change once the saturation demands it. Oled vs LCD will be the new plasma vs LCD battle.

Plasma would still be alive if 1080p was all we had to worry about. You could buy a plasma today and know the tech was best.

What killed it? 4k. Because 4k plasmas was not realistic. If 1080p was still the standard plasma would still be alive.

All these things point to one thing.

Buy a 4k set.
The one connect box from Samsung is a fantastic way to update faster processing, upscaling and overall OWNERS performance. Samsung will support each display that uses the evolution kit/one connect for 2 years. If you buy a 2014 Samsung 4k,2016 will be the last EVO kit before needing to upgrade entire set.
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post #70 of 2289 Old 07-21-2014, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Kingcarcas View Post
What I don't get is when people say that watching 4K content on a 2K TV over 2K content it actually looks better................
Where is the extra information coming from to make it a better picture? Or is it just placebo?

To me, 2K content on a 4K TV clearly looks better as long as the TV's upscaler is up to snuff. Obviously the improvement is more noticeable on larger size 4K sets, but it's something that's visible to me standing fairly close to even a 55" 4K display. I've compared the image of a blu-Ray split to a Sony 55W950B and 55X850B, and the 4K set definitely renders more/finer detail with a 1080 source.

If you've already got a great set -- an Elite, a Kuro, a ZT60, HX950, F8500, etc. -- then there's obviously little reason to upgrade if you're currently happy with your picture and size. But if you're in the market today, it seems silly to avoid 4K on purpose. TV manufacturers have already made sure that their best performing 1080p TVs ARE their 4K TVs. 1080p sets have already become an afterthought.

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post #71 of 2289 Old 07-21-2014, 11:28 AM
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"Is Ken right that 4K TV does not need native 4K content?" Yes. I just replaced an old 50" 720p plasma set with a 50" 4k set, without expecting to see 4k content on it at all, and the 4k set looks great (except for poor off-axis viewing). I would have waited a year or two for Dolby Vision, but the plasma broke -- it was a TV emergency.

Would I replace the working plasma set in my main HT with a new 4k TV? No way.

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post #72 of 2289 Old 07-21-2014, 11:44 AM
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Look @ the picture on that screen, @ them two lovely chicks @ left, and right;
who wouldn't want to buy a 4K display today?
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post #73 of 2289 Old 07-21-2014, 11:46 AM
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as someone who currently doesn't have a tv, it went permanently missing, now im having to buy a new one. so what do I do, I have been struggling with the fact that the better 4k's are a year or 2 away, obviously im not going to wait that long. I decided on the 4k, Sony XBR55X850B I was able to get it for 2300. They placed a 55" sony lcd 1080p next to the 4k and i was simultaneously viewing espn on both, I will say the picture was noticeably better comparing them side by side. they even played bluray with the same bluray sony 5200 I have at home, I was very impressed that pretty much sealed the deal at that point. I don't think, or perhaps I should say I hope my tv could accept a 4k signal in 5 years it just may not look as good as current TV's at that time. I can live with that considering the situation im in. for the moment I am very happy with my decision.
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post #74 of 2289 Old 07-21-2014, 11:52 AM
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No mention of the Vizio P Series with 4K, FALD, etc starting at just $999?

The films of De Sica, of Welles, of Michael Powell and Emeric Pressburger made little money and endure as spiritual delights.
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post #75 of 2289 Old 07-21-2014, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Shankenstein View Post
The one connect box from Samsung is a fantastic way to update faster processing, upscaling and overall OWNERS performance. Samsung will support each display that uses the evolution kit/one connect for 2 years. If you buy a 2014 Samsung 4k,2016 will be the last EVO kit before needing to upgrade entire set.
As the former owner of a flagship $400 Samsung Bluray player that typically got updates around 2-3 months after the release of the movie that needed the update to play, once downloaded an update that actually bricked my player (no fault of mine but Samsung charged me to fix it anyway) and then lost support all together as Samsung 'transitioned to support to newer players in the interest of customer service'... I wouldn't be overly optimistic about the EVO kit.

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post #76 of 2289 Old 07-21-2014, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by fatuglyguy View Post
To me, 2K content on a 4K TV clearly looks better as long as the TV's upscaler is up to snuff. Obviously the improvement is more noticeable on larger size 4K sets, but it's something that's visible to me standing fairly close to even a 55" 4K display. I've compared the image of a blu-Ray split to a Sony 55W950B and 55X850B, and the 4K set definitely renders more/finer detail with a 1080 source.

If you've already got a great set -- an Elite, a Kuro, a ZT60, HX950, F8500, etc. -- then there's obviously little reason to upgrade if you're currently happy with your picture and size. But if you're in the market today, it seems silly to avoid 4K on purpose. TV manufacturers have already made sure that their best performing 1080p TVs ARE their 4K TVs. 1080p sets have already become an afterthought.
I'm curious where you think more/finer detail actually comes from. Are you sure the settings on the two TVs are otherwise identical, save for resolution? So far, I have yet to see 1080p upscaled to UHD/4K provide any benefit whatsoever, in terms of resolution and detail rendition. I've performed a similar test with a Panasonic TC-64AX800U and a Samsung PN64F8500, and the Samsung always keeps up when it comes to 1080p content. Real UHD/4K content is a whole another story, it absolutely blows away 1080p as long as you are close enough to see it.
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post #77 of 2289 Old 07-21-2014, 12:48 PM
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Personally I think people are nuts to buy a high end set or PJ in 2014. There are terrific bang for the buck 1080p sets out there and if you don't have any set at all right now go that route and save your real money for the much better sets to land for 4k if and when we see physical media to support it.

I'm not discounting 4k streams either, I just watched Snowpiercer via Apple TV this weekend at 120" via an Epson 5020 and was suitably impressed at how well that compared to Blu quality. But the bandwidth for that is going to be at least double, probably between triple and 4x for 1080p and while my FIOS 50/50 can handle that fine it's not going to be mainstream any time soon.

CEDIA is close too, don't buy anything until after that if considering a PJ.

I get just as excited to upgrade as anyone, but jumping onto half baked displays when there is nothing to make them sing just seems like a waste of money to me.
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post #78 of 2289 Old 07-21-2014, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gene Cox View Post
as someone who currently doesn't have a tv, it went permanently missing, now im having to buy a new one. so what do I do, I have been struggling with the fact that the better 4k's are a year or 2 away, obviously im not going to wait that long. I decided on the 4k, Sony XBR55X850B I was able to get it for 2300. They placed a 55" sony lcd 1080p next to the 4k and i was simultaneously viewing espn on both, I will say the picture was noticeably better comparing them side by side. they even played bluray with the same bluray sony 5200 I have at home, I was very impressed that pretty much sealed the deal at that point. I don't think, or perhaps I should say I hope my tv could accept a 4k signal in 5 years it just may not look as good as current TV's at that time. I can live with that considering the situation im in. for the moment I am very happy with my decision.
Congratulations! ...She's a real beauty.

____________

* I saw (with my own set of eyes) some 4K (UHD) TVs from Samsung, and Sony @ my local video stores.
They were playing true 4K content (on a loop), and the picture quality was simply phenomenal!
...Mucho bellissimo, much nicer picture (details, more details, colors, wow wow factor, more colors, details again, wow, big wow, ...) than the one of my 2K (1080p) Samsung plasma (lower hi-def pic). ...No contest!

To buy now? ...Why the heck not, life's short and then you just die.

And! If they are good @ doing 4K, you can bet your brain that they can do 2K superbly.
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post #79 of 2289 Old 07-21-2014, 01:00 PM
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...And make that 4K in 3D. ...They'll come eventually; them Utlra hi-def Blu discs in 3D.
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post #80 of 2289 Old 07-21-2014, 01:10 PM
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experts can't see the difference [between native UHD/4K and the same content upscaled from 1080p] in side-by-side tests from distances of three feet or more.
This alone should clue people in on how little pixel resolution is starting to mean.
In short If you have a 'good' 1080p display now, you might as well put your feet up and just enjoy it.

With a truck load of luck maybe we will see affordable oled in the 80-90" range, that would honestly be the only thing I would consider replacing my front projection, in fact it wouldn't even have to be 4k, I would much rather have a 10bit 1080p panel than a 8bit 4k one.
The 50" plasma is plenty good for regular tv uses.
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post #81 of 2289 Old 07-21-2014, 01:23 PM
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Relevant article to this discussion

Study finds only 17% of U.S. broadband users are aware of 4K




"The industry is counting on 4K/UHD to be the solution for slow television sales and declining unit prices," said TDG president Michael Greeson. "This explicitly quantifies just how poor the demand for 4K/UHD televisions actually is and clearly demonstrates the current prices are too high to stimulate new sales."

Here's the rub who would have thought that one of the main problems with 4K is a widespread lack of awareness among consumers. Well duh, no 4K media, no 4k streaming unless you own a UDTV, whats the incentive?

Oppo Beta Group

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post #82 of 2289 Old 07-21-2014, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Mattopotamus View Post
It is very hard to find good 4k content. I have a smaller f8500 and wanted a larger set. I bought the sony since it was slightly cheaper and the picture looked almost identical.

If I had a 64" f8500 I would not upgrade just to have 4k.
that was my thinking as well though i didn't already have a F8500. Higher resolution is obviously the future but we are in that transitional period where if you are in the market for a new TV there is no clear cut answer, I just went with with F8500 because i know what i am getting with plasma and don't have to read up on what LED has the best trickery to do what a top performing Plasma does natively. the fact that a 2013 model still holds up with the 2014 tvs (excluding OLED) was just enough for me to pull the trigger , are there just as good sets or better coming out this year , yes and of course tech moves quickly so u make a decision based on conditions at the moment.
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post #83 of 2289 Old 07-21-2014, 01:47 PM
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post #84 of 2289 Old 07-21-2014, 01:52 PM
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What we need it this:

* OLED
* 4K resolution (3840 × 2160)
* 30/36 bit per pixel color depth (i.e. 10/12 bits per RGB color channel)
* Rec.2020 color space
* 48/50/60+ fps

That's the next holy grail. Everything else is intermediate.
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post #85 of 2289 Old 07-21-2014, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Mrorange303 View Post
We'll sit fairly close I guess that is why I am so admiring of 4k tech. I also have 20/15 vision. Not that I am saying huge thing or anything but I've always noticed pixels in hd material. Uhd non with good native 4k. But we will all own 4k sets anyway one day so what's the big deal. I think there are advantages and we early adopters drive the tech.
Your statement is so important, I always forget that most people have less than 20/20 vision, considering this is "average" eyesight, and the mean population here is above 16.

My wife and I are 47 and 44, respectively; she has extraordinary distance 20/10 vision, whereas I have only 20/15 vision. She can read street signs 1/2 mile away, a full 5-10 seconds before I can. This is our vision currently, and not from when we were 16!

We sit anywhere from 10 to 12 ft. away from our 46" LCD (Sony Aquos from '08) and definitely see pixels in 1080p. Resolution of 720p vs. 1080p is like night and day to us. My mother-in-law was over last night and we are amazed she still can't tell the difference between SH and HD! As for PQ, the level that my wife cares is a 1, whereas I am (like all of you in this forum) at a 10. Basically, she cares if she can turn the TV on and off, and if a rom/com is on.

That being said, this past weekend my wife, daughter and I went to Jordan's to look at new furniture. After ice cream, I told her I wanted to show her something at Paul's TV. I have been on the UHD 4K kick for only a week, and I just had to show her the Samsung 50", 55", 65" and 75" HU8550. They had the 9000's also, but when she saw the 55" HU8550 she just said one word: "Wow!" My eyes welled up with tears. It was so incredible!!!

So, for someone who cares not one iota for PQ, I think this was a great test for HD vs. UHD. Most of us here are all ridiculously knowledgeable about A/V compared to the average, reasonable TV viewer. So I think at times we get so caught up in the details.

I think sometimes getting the impromptu opinion of someone who is 100% objective is just as important as that of the educated person.
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post #86 of 2289 Old 07-21-2014, 02:19 PM
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The 50" plasma is plenty good for regular tv uses.
Nothing more true than a statement about the average Joe. But we wouldn't be here if we were average, would we?
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post #87 of 2289 Old 07-21-2014, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by MegaMember View Post
Your statement is so important, I always forget that most people have less than 20/20 vision, considering this is "average" eyesight, and the mean population here is above 16.

My wife and I are 47 and 44, respectively; she has extraordinary distance 20/10 vision, whereas I have only 20/15 vision. She can read street signs 1/2 mile away, a full 5-10 seconds before I can. This is our vision currently, and not from when we were 16!

We sit anywhere from 10 to 12 ft. away from our 46" LCD (Sony Aquos from '08) and definitely see pixels in 1080p. Resolution of 720p vs. 1080p is like night and day to us. My mother-in-law was over last night and we are amazed she still can't tell the difference between SH and HD! As for PQ, the level that my wife cares is a 1, whereas I am (like all of you in this forum) at a 10. Basically, she cares if she can turn the TV on and off, and if a rom/com is on.

That being said, this past weekend my wife, daughter and I went to Jordan's to look at new furniture. After ice cream, I told her I wanted to show her something at Paul's TV. I have been on the UHD 4K kick for only a week, and I just had to show her the Samsung 50", 55", 65" and 75" HU8550. They had the 9000's also, but when she saw the 55" HU8550 she just said one word: "Wow!" My eyes welled up with tears. It was so incredible!!!

So, for someone who cares not one iota for PQ, I think this was a great test for HD vs. UHD. Most of us here are all ridiculously knowledgeable about A/V compared to the average, reasonable TV viewer. So I think at times we get so caught up in the details.

I think sometimes getting the impromptu opinion of someone who is 100% objective is just as important as that of the educated person.
Great read. Thanks for that.
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post #88 of 2289 Old 07-21-2014, 02:59 PM
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Nothing more true than a statement about the average Joe. But we wouldn't be here if we were average, would we?
Well the average Joe hasn't bought plasmas the past 5+ years anyways, but I have a sony hw50 projector for more (or less) serious viewing.

In truth I look at my bank statement and wish I was the average Joe, but then again every regular guy has that one thing to blow his dispensable income on, be it AV gear, cars or mountain biking or just plain drinking.

And I would have to admit that being an HT enthusiast has a much lower risk of grievous bodily harm than mountain biking :-)
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post #89 of 2289 Old 07-21-2014, 03:38 PM
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UHD/4K Quandary: To Buy or Not to Buy

I think TV manufacturers just need to recalibrate their sales expectations. TVs are a mature product, there's practically nothing they can do to set sales on fire. On virtually every single measure of image quality we're bumping up against the limits of human perception and/or the limitations of current technology. HD-4K isn't a big difference from a normal seating distance. 10bit color is practically imperceptible outside of test patterns. Rec 2020 is meaningless when TVs aren't calibrated out of the box anyway, and even if they were, people wouldn't notice or care. Smart TVs are pointless in a world full of cheap set top boxes.

The only thing that's going to sell TVs to people outside of AVS is size, style and price. 3D had potential, but they couldn't bridge the gap to glasses free before people (and content producers) move on.

They need to accept that they're in the business of selling durable goods like cars, not disposable gadgets. It's like ford pinning their hopes for rejuvenating sales on an extra gear in the transmission and a reformulated tire compound, when today's family sedans already exceed the needs of normal people by a significant margin...it's crazy.

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post #90 of 2289 Old 07-21-2014, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Mrorange303 View Post
How do you know its a better expirience? I get you have a great plasma. But if like younyou all say it was so good then why did it die?

Everything is better in 4k. Everything.

I have never liked plasma televisions. Living in Colorado we have a short life span with plasmas here. Low oxygen doesnt help the tech.

My last example is the never perfected 720p sets. Why did you buy a 1080p set?
WTF!! I live in Aurora and you don't know what you're talking about dude. I love plasma tvs-how do figure living in Colorado means they have a shorter life span? Where is your proof? Tests to back your opinion? Baloney
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