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post #901 of 1698 Old 08-05-2014, 01:54 PM
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Same principle works on displays big and small. This is literally science. Not my personal feelings.

I request the same. And don't say stand back further. 4k is to sit closer. So that point is a dead horse.

Thanks.
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post #902 of 1698 Old 08-05-2014, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
^ Absolutely. But it does speak to the improved 'look' that HD has on a good UHD TV. I can easily see someone mistaking this improved look for greater detail. I think CR nailed it by calling it 'enhanced detail'.
Ditto.
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post #903 of 1698 Old 08-05-2014, 01:59 PM
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Why is it that anytime someone post a "pro" for UHD, a bunch of people get aggravated and try to disprove him, while if someone posts a "con" it is greatly accepted and appreciated.
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post #904 of 1698 Old 08-05-2014, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrorange303 View Post
Prove to me more pixels doesn't help detail. Let's start there.
With a 4k source, certain details that involve small color variations across a surface should be visible (using dither), though they could not be seen at 2k, at ordinary viewing distances.

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post #905 of 1698 Old 08-05-2014, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrorange303 View Post
Same principle works on displays big and small. This is literally science. Not my personal feelings.

I request the same. And don't say stand back further. 4k is to sit closer. So that point is a dead horse.

Thanks.
Whoever said more pixels don't help, please explain the difference between the iPhone icons Mr. Orange posted. All are form the same OS, but the last row is from a retina display. Can you see that?
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post #906 of 1698 Old 08-05-2014, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by vddobrev View Post
Why is it that anytime someone post a "pro" for UHD, a bunch of people get aggravated and try to disprove him, while if someone posts a "con" it is greatly accepted and appreciated.
Great question indeed.
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post #907 of 1698 Old 08-05-2014, 02:07 PM
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This resolution 'enhancement' sounds suspiciously like the 'motion enhancement' that manufacturers use to 'improve' motion by interpolating artificial intermediary frames between the actual frames of a source.

So, what I'll say to that is some people like this sort of enhancement and some don't. I fall on the side of the argument that I don't want my display adding anything that wasn't there to begin with. Now, we're getting into a sort of grey area here as, unless the UHD set just quadruples every pixel of the 1080p source, it HAS to scale the source up similar to how an HD set HAS to scale an SD image up to fit the pixel count of the display.

In either case this isn't an ideal. I'll tell you that DVD looks better played natively on our 56" CRT RPTV than it does upscaled to any of our digital (DLP, LCD, plasma) displays. Having to create something from nothing is always going to leave a lot to be desired.
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post #908 of 1698 Old 08-05-2014, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
With a 4k source, certain details that involve small color variations across a surface should be visible (using dither), though they could not be seen at 2k, at ordinary viewing distances.
And there are 4 pixels on a 4k to do color transitions and variations compared to 1 for every 1080p screen.

SSo while the 1080p screen shows 1 pixel of color.

The 4k screen can literally show 4 pixels in the same space as the 1 and display 4 different colors.

This is why definition is greater which causes some detail lost from conversion to show up on the UHD screen.

They don't get it. I literally did not make any of this up. They just don't get it.

I'm lost.
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post #909 of 1698 Old 08-05-2014, 02:12 PM
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only a matter of time before 4k infiltrates all tvs, down to the walmart level

at that point, its going to be: Do i go with the cheaper lcd or the more expensive Oled
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post #910 of 1698 Old 08-05-2014, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
This resolution 'enhancement' sounds suspiciously like the 'motion enhancement' that manufacturers use to 'improve' motion by interpolating artificial intermediary frames between the actual frames of a source.

So, what I'll say to that is some people like this sort of enhancement and some don't. I fall on the side of the argument that I don't want my display adding anything that wasn't there to begin with. Now, we're getting into a sort of grey area here as, unless the UHD set just quadruples every pixel of the 1080p source, it HAS to scale the source up similar to how an HD set HAS to scale an SD image up to fit the pixel count of the display.

In either case this isn't an ideal. I'll tell you that DVD looks better played natively on our 56" CRT RPTV than it does upscaled to any of our digital (DLP, LCD, plasma) displays. Having to create something from nothing is always going to leave a lot to be desired.
Motion interpolating has nothing to do with resolution.

You have 60hz, 120hz and so on but all are still 1080p.

If your saying it is that type of step I disagree.

I can get a video game in 720p at 60fps.

But will it show more detail then a game at 1080p 30 fps?

No. 2 separate features.
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post #911 of 1698 Old 08-05-2014, 02:25 PM
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Detail is greater. Color etc all because of pixels. Not a feeling. If you debate this that is the first issue with your understanding of 4k.
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post #912 of 1698 Old 08-05-2014, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrorange303 View Post
The 4k screen can literally show 4 pixels in the same space as the 1 and display 4 different colors.

This is why definition is greater which causes some detail lost from conversion to show up on the UHD screen.
Well, it's more complicated than that, because those extra pixels on the 4k screen are too small to be seen at an ordinary distance. Details that depend on the visibility of individual pixels at 4k will be lost -- the pixels are too tiny. My example concerned a detail of a different sort, that doesn't depend on the visibility of individual pixels. Rather, I'm talking about a detail that depends on distinguishing the colors of contiguous areas, where the colors are close enough that 8 bit color is not enough to distinguish them, but in 4k you can make the areas appear distinct by scattering some differing pixels in one of them. The distinguishing pixels themselves would not be visible, but the different color tint they add to the area could be seen.

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post #913 of 1698 Old 08-05-2014, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
I bet you anything that the non retina example that apple use on that pic for marketing propose doesn't look like that close to a retina display.come on!!! You can't even see clear the letters.


The first row is 1:1, second and third row is blown up. Have you ever had an iPohone 3, or 2?
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post #914 of 1698 Old 08-05-2014, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
Well, it's more complicated than that, because those extra pixels on the 4k screen are too small to be seen at an ordinary distance. Details that depend on the visibility of individual pixels at 4k will be lost -- the pixels are too tiny. My example concerned a detail of a different sort, that doesn't depend on the visibility of individual pixels. Rather, I'm talking about a detail that depends on distinguishing the colors of contiguous areas, where the colors are close enough that 8 bit color is not enough to distinguish them, but in 4k you can make the areas appear distinct by scattering some differing pixels in one of them. The distinguishing pixels themselves would not be visible, but the different color tint they add to the area could be seen.
This is not different. Just I use a real easy to understand version of it.
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post #915 of 1698 Old 08-05-2014, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by vddobrev View Post
The first row is 1:1, second and third row is blown up. Have you ever had an iPohone 3, or 2?
Yep. Been a while. Retina was huge.

Bottom line is it helps. That's all. I think we can agree it possible

And sorry that's not at you. I just agree with you.
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post #916 of 1698 Old 08-05-2014, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Mrorange303 View Post
Detail is greater. Color etc all because of pixels. Not a feeling. If you debate this that is the first issue with your understanding of 4k.
That's native 4K resolution, whereas we were talking about upscaling, not showing native 4K.
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post #917 of 1698 Old 08-05-2014, 02:59 PM
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Now we are going to exaggerate the look of a image over a retina or 4k display?
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post #918 of 1698 Old 08-05-2014, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post
That's native 4K resolution, whereas we were talking about upscaling, not showing native 4K.
Sorry. It does help in upscale too. Like in frozen the characters wear a purple fleece type material. On my UHD you can see the texture of the material.

The material on my 1080p set is just not as defined.

Of course UHD content is really sharp so that helps.

But I'd say it helps a lot on upscale pictures.
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post #919 of 1698 Old 08-05-2014, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
Now we are going to exaggerate the look of a image over a retina or 4k display?
If you argue it please just use evidence we can follow. We are open minded and are willing to take the time to review the evidence. Thanks. Its just I've given a good argument with something to follow. It makes it easier for all who maybe following to better understand your point. Thanks again.
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post #920 of 1698 Old 08-05-2014, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrorange303 View Post
Sorry. It does help in upscale too. Like in frozen the characters wear a purple fleece type material. On my UHD you can see the texture of the material.

The material on my 1080p set is just not as defined.
Isn't that because you've set the sharpness on your 4K TV very high? You've calibrated the 1080p set but not the 4K set and set the sharpness to high. If you're going to do comparisons like this surely for a valid comparison you'd need both sets calibrated/similar settings on both (not sharpness/contrast turned way up on one but not the other).

I'm not saying upscaling doesn't help, but the difference you're seeing in this case is probably a lot to do with the different settings (eg. sharpness/contrast etc.), than just upscaling/the TVs res.

Last edited by Joe Bloggs; 08-05-2014 at 03:08 PM.
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post #921 of 1698 Old 08-05-2014, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
This picture clear said simulated images.
Of course it is, isn't it obvious?
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post #922 of 1698 Old 08-05-2014, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
Now we are going to exaggerate the look of a image over a retina or 4k display?
Yea, lets try exaggerating for a while, since you don't get it. You avoided the question, so it is obvious you haven't seen how iPhone 2 or 3 icons looked back then [exactly as depicted]. If you have, you would have know the difference...
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post #923 of 1698 Old 08-05-2014, 03:20 PM
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Somebody posted this chart below at another forum. Has anybody seen it? No source was given for it so I'm curious.



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post #924 of 1698 Old 08-05-2014, 03:23 PM
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That simulated images doesn't represent the real look of 4k and 1080p and I'm out, this is getting out of proportion.

Last edited by losservatore; 08-05-2014 at 03:29 PM.
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post #925 of 1698 Old 08-05-2014, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
The pictures doesn't represent the real look of 4k and 1080p and I'm out this is getting out of proportion.
Like hell it doesn't, so all this time I have been looking at a UHD with unreal look, and also an iPhone retina display with unreal look. What do you know...
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post #926 of 1698 Old 08-05-2014, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Mrorange303 View Post
The details that's there is refined. Simple. Hair, grass, show detail. All benefit from resolution bumps. I meant the detail is more defined.

Prove to me more pixels doesn't help detail. Let's start there.

The science is not against me. It's against you.

So let's first prove more pixels doesn't help.
first you say it create new and now science is against me ?...
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post #927 of 1698 Old 08-05-2014, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by bruceames View Post




Somebody posted this chart below at another forum. Has anybody seen it? No source was given for it so I'm curious.


Yes, those have been posted several times. They're from Carlton Bale's website.

http://carltonbale.com/does-4k-resolution-matter/
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post #928 of 1698 Old 08-05-2014, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
I have an iphone 3 in my closet I also have an iphone 5 and iPad ,what will be next taking pictures with a magnifying glass?
No magnifying glass needed, just take your iPhone 3 out of the closet and put it next to your iPhone 5... perhaps you forgot how it looked, since you asked all these question. Gee... I cannot believe you said all of the above...
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post #929 of 1698 Old 08-05-2014, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Kalani View Post
Yes, those have been posted several times. They're from Carlton Bale's website.

http://carltonbale.com/does-4k-resolution-matter/
The second chart is?

I ask because the second chart recommends about 3x the seating distance as the first, so I don't think it's from the same source.
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post #930 of 1698 Old 08-05-2014, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
I have an iphone 3 in my closet I also have an iphone 5 and iPad ,what will be next taking pictures with a magnifying glass and zooming the image to 400%?
As I said, no need to zoom:

iPhone 3: 480×320 = 153,600 pixels
iPhone 5: 1136x640 = 727,040 pixels --> number of pixels increased 4.7 times, while screen increased with .5 inches.

Translate the above to 1080p vs UHD... you do the math.
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