UHD/4K Quandary: To Buy or Not to Buy - Page 38 - AVS Forum
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post #1111 of 1679 Old 08-09-2014, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
motion blur and LCD. UHD even FHD loss all of it benefits in motion.

without very special treatment like sony impulse or lightboost hacked LCDs. motion is has a very low resolution on LCD or shows terrible artefacts with frame creation. so the best choice is slow motion from wild life and flowers.
Again this is in fact wrong. The source has a large part to do with this. Content matters.

Most blurays and uhd content does not have major issues at all.

In fact those nature videos look better on a uhd set. Motion wise.

Again older issues that are generalized and applied to even this years uhd sets.

If you don't know then you don't. But I'd high
Y encourage you to research motion on 2014 sets. Sony and samsung in particular.

Your outdated info is the issue. Sets have evolved even from just last year.
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post #1112 of 1679 Old 08-09-2014, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post
What happen to "experience it yourself then make a decision"? How difficult is it to go to any store that shows 4K and make a decision based on your own experience?...sigh.

This is the only way to evaluate a purchase decision. There is no science to this. You see it and like it buy it. If you don't like it don't buy it.
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post #1113 of 1679 Old 08-09-2014, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by bakerwi View Post
This is the only way to evaluate a purchase decision. There is no science to this. You see it and like it buy it. If you don't like it don't buy it.
have you ever seen a OLED next to a normal LCD in a store? i can't tell the difference by these lightning conditions no wonder. and the next problem the settings of the TVs. all samsung UHD i saw looked totally terrible in shops. like sharpness put at max or crap like that. tons of ringing and other things that are defiantly correctable by changing the settings.

in my eyes a shop is a bad place to judge a TV.
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post #1114 of 1679 Old 08-09-2014, 04:01 PM
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I don't know if this was unintentionally but the best buy in my city have a 4k side by side with a 2k just like in the picture but with the same TV size ,I was about that distance, I'm not sure how far is that but the resolution difference were very minimal, it didn't WOW ME.

I must be blind right..



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post #1115 of 1679 Old 08-09-2014, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
I don't know if this was unintentionally but the best buy in my city have a 4k side by side with a 2k just like in the picture but with the same TV size ,I was about that distance, I'm not sure how far is that but the resolution difference were very minimal, it didn't WOW ME.

I must be blind right..



Or didn't have the same source going to both to get a fair comparison . But hey if you say your blind.

Also a few minutes with inaccurate comparison material doesn't help your case for a trusty comparison.

Or 4k is not for you. Go buy a f8500 now and never buy a 4k set because you really won't benefit.
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post #1116 of 1679 Old 08-09-2014, 04:22 PM
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is not like UHD "4k" is limited to the resolution at least not for long so buy a 1080p and forget UHD is no good way to deal with this.
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post #1117 of 1679 Old 08-09-2014, 04:27 PM
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Well I passed my eye test last year to renew my license and without any glasses ,4k did look nice when I was right in front of the TV ,I mean too close ,,who seat that close?

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post #1118 of 1679 Old 08-09-2014, 04:36 PM
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
is not like UHD "4k" is limited to the resolution at least not for long so buy a 1080p and forget UHD is no good way to deal with this.
But if he doesn't benefit now the threads point would dictate he goes for a 1080p set. In that case a plasma would be his best choice.

Of course he would have had a better idea if they actually compared material but they didn't. So he has already formed his opinion.

It's not wrong I mean it is his. If he doesn't benefit from a tv at that horrid angle btw great shot from the side, but really if every thing you say is a negative about technology it's not for you. Simple enough.
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post #1119 of 1679 Old 08-09-2014, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
have you ever seen a OLED next to a normal LCD in a store? i can't tell the difference by these lightning conditions no wonder. and the next problem the settings of the TVs. all samsung UHD i saw looked totally terrible in shops. like sharpness put at max or crap like that. tons of ringing and other things that are defiantly correctable by changing the settings.

in my eyes a shop is a bad place to judge a TV.
In about 90% of the stores, that's true. In the three stores that I consult for, they have a separate room that showcases 2K, 4K, both TVs and projectors and all of the displays are professionally calibrated.

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post #1120 of 1679 Old 08-09-2014, 04:43 PM
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@MrO rnage you are aware that UHD gets a bigger colorspace and HDR?

yeah it's true that current UHD can't do that but

Quote:
Go buy a f8500 now and never buy a 4k set because you really won't benefit.
is a little bit extreme don't you things don't you think?
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post #1121 of 1679 Old 08-09-2014, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
@MrO rnage you are aware that UHD gets a bigger colorspace and HDR?

yeah it's true that current UHD can't do that but



is a little bit extreme don't you things don't you think?
Fine. But how long until that happens. Could be soon. May be years. Could miss out.

I agree I'm being overly dramatic about the never part. But so is he about zero benefit.

Once the standards are set we will be in a much better spot. All of us. But you have to realize it all starts somewhere.

We all jump in at different times. The benefit right now is only a resolution bump. What benefits that has on a picture.

He has to accept that or not. But I think we can all agree his method to deliver his point with that off angle shot and commercials running really missed the point. That's not a good comparison at all.
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post #1122 of 1679 Old 08-09-2014, 04:55 PM
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i'm pretty sure the picture was not for us to judge picture quality. they are there as an example of what his store has.

and i don't know how these systems work but from the look of it they are worthless. i don't know if they need an extra input or something to start a test or what ever.
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post #1123 of 1679 Old 08-09-2014, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
...
Using a tape measure, I backed away from the TV until I found the point when I could no longer see a clear difference between the layers.

With the 65-inch AX800U, that distance turns out to be between nine and ten feet away from the screen, and I have 20/15 vision.

Depending on the content, I can see that distance being a bit longer or shorter.
Estimating the distance required for 4k-type detail to be visible has little resemblance, it seems to me, to the conceptually simple result of testing whether 2k and 4k pictures can be discriminated. If you can see the 4k-type detail, of course it follows that you can discriminate 2k and 4k, but if you can discriminate 2k from 4k, it doesn't follow that you did it by seeing more detail in the 4k picture. Do you see that?

I've spent a good deal of effort in the last few days giving my reasons for thinking that people can discriminate 4k from 2k in a way that has nothing to do with seeing details in the picture. Rather, they do it by noticing that color gradients over surfaces are smoother in 4k, because 4k video cameras can dither down 10 bit color depth to 8 bit color depth, preserving better gradients in 4k. If that is so, it makes the experiment you just outlined for us utterly irrelevant to the question of whether people can discriminate 4k pictures at longer distances.

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post #1124 of 1679 Old 08-09-2014, 05:01 PM
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I'm not against of 4k, A 65" LCD 4k TV have very little to offer over my TV,I watch movies in low ambient light or dark room, I mostly watch non stop action movies and plasma TV handle motion better without the use of frame interpolation/soap opera effect ,I have a family so curve to me is totally unnecessary, with a plasma TV my family can enjoy a movie at extreme angles without any image degradation.Dark movies never looked well on my previous LCD.






A 4k projector when they be more affordable will be a great investment.

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post #1125 of 1679 Old 08-09-2014, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
have you ever seen a OLED next to a normal LCD in a store? i can't tell the difference by these lightning conditions no wonder. and the next problem the settings of the TVs. all samsung UHD i saw looked totally terrible in shops. like sharpness put at max or crap like that. tons of ringing and other things that are defiantly correctable by changing the settings.

in my eyes a shop is a bad place to judge a TV.
I've been to several stores and the TVs are scattered all over the place.

Most places are not idea for comparing TVs. What I try to decide is based on 1st impressions and observations can some of the flaws I may be seeing be overcome if properly setup. If it survives the aforementioned then I take it home and see if I can either mitigate the flaws or get them to a point where they are not a distraction during normal viewing. No TV that I have come across could be dialed 100% into a standard regardless of technology. Maybe some have better luck than I. However, I just use the standard as guide to an end. I had my Kuro ISF calibrated and I added my own touches upon completion. It's the old reference versus preference.

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post #1126 of 1679 Old 08-09-2014, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
Estimating the distance required for 4k-type detail to be visible has little resemblance, it seems to me, to the conceptually simple result of testing whether 2k and 4k pictures can be discriminated. If you can see the 4k-type detail, of course it follows that you can discriminate 2k and 4k, but if you can discriminate 2k from 4k, it doesn't follow that you did it by seeing more detail in the 4k picture. Do you see that?

I've spent a good deal of effort in the last few days giving my reasons for thinking that people can discriminate 4k from 2k in a way that has nothing to do with seeing details in the picture. Rather, they do it by noticing that color gradients over surfaces are smoother in 4k, because 4k video cameras can dither down 10 bit color depth to 8 bit color depth, preserving better gradients in 4k. If that is so, it makes the experiment you just outlined for us utterly irrelevant to the question of whether people can discriminate 4k pictures at longer distances.
More detail, especially in textures, is exactly how I was able to tell the difference when I was close enough.

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post #1127 of 1679 Old 08-09-2014, 05:25 PM
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More detail, especially in textures, is exactly how I was able to tell the difference when I was close enough.
I don't doubt it for a second, nor did I ever doubt it.

I just now pointed out that if you can see the extra detail provided by 4k, then you can tell it's 4k that way. It's obvious, anyway. What I'm trying to make clear, is that there is something else you can see, not so sensitive to distance, to tell you that it's 4k. So just because you can't see the discriminating detail of 4k at a given distance, it does not follow that you can't tell it's 4k from that distance.

I guess I'm just beating my gums, here.

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post #1128 of 1679 Old 08-09-2014, 05:37 PM
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@GregLee

i know what you mean but i'm not sure what's so important of this.

so let's say everyone can which is which but doesn't see more details what conclusion did we get this way?

BTW. i think the comparison between FHD and UHD shouldn't be done with a FHD set and a UHD set.

you can easily let a UHD set act as a FHD set. just take a FHD picture and resize it with point resizer to UHD. so 4 pixel will now always show the some information.
so if you do this with half a UHD and half a FHD screen you got a perfect comparison without differences in the panels.
of cause you need a panel that isn't subsampling with a input picture. i'm pretty sure the panasonic AX800 can do this with the display port.

i will create later a picture like that. need a proper legal source first.
of cause the downscaler is still a problem this is not fixable.
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post #1129 of 1679 Old 08-09-2014, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
i know what you mean but i'm not sure what's so important of this.

so let's say everyone can which is which but doesn't see more details what conclusion did we get this way?
I'm concerned only with whether it's true.

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post #1130 of 1679 Old 08-09-2014, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by bakerwi View Post
We can all respect what those individuals saw, but it doesn't necessarily invalidate the chart. 50 different people may come to a different conclusion.
That's true, but when 48 out of 49 come up with same conclusion, we sit up and take notice.
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Both my clients who are an ophthalmologist and an opthalmology professor also claim that the chart doesn't make sense (they both own 65" Sony 4K TV viewed from 10ft away).
And this is precisely why I questioned people who hold this chart up as validated 'science'. It is neither validated nor is it science.
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post #1132 of 1679 Old 08-09-2014, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Lets just say I agree with Scott, who said this in the original post:

"Many people ask me if they should buy a UHD/4K TV now, and my answer is usually, "No, wait for the standards to be finalized and for TVs and content to implement those standards." That is still my advice if you buy a new TV infrequently—say, every 5-10 years. If you buy a UHD/4K TV now, it probably won't be able to display the higher dynamic range and wider color gamut in the content that's coming a couple of years from now—and in a side-by-side comparison between today's UHD/4K content and that future content on a compatible display, the differences will NOT be subtle, I can assure you." - Scott Wilkinson
And as I've said several times, there is absolutely no guarantee that we'll have either or both HDR and a wider color gamut in a couple of years. So yes, you can wait 'a couple of years' and you still may only have the resolution component of 4K.

I think it's only fair to include that caveat rather than making it seem a foregone conclusion.
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Good science, in this context, IMO, is having an experimental result which supports a claim being made. If it's asserted that people can't distinguish a 60" 2k from 4k picture at a distance of, oh say 8 feet, then good science would be to have an experiment with reasonable controls to cite showing that people in the experiment in fact could not discriminate the two. It's really straightforward. Either people can tell the difference, or they can't. Posting a diagram someone made up is not evidence; it's more like a rumor.
Hmm, I wonder who said that pages ago?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
motion blur and LCD. UHD even FHD loss all of it benefits in motion.

without very special treatment like sony impulse or lightboost hacked LCDs. motion is has a very low resolution on LCD or shows terrible artefacts with frame creation. so the best choice is slow motion from wild life and flowers.
First off, the majority of what we watch is not in motion. CBS' estimate was that over 90% of what we watch is static or nearly static in nature.

Second, not all LCDs have the same motion handling ability. So to say that UHD and even FHD 'loses all of its benefits' is nothing but hyperbole.
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
First off, the majority of what we watch is not in motion. CBS' estimate was that over 90% of what we watch is static or nearly static in nature.

Second, not all LCDs have the same motion handling ability. So to say that UHD and even FHD 'loses all of its benefits' is nothing but hyperbole.
Correct. I dont get why he keeps saying that stuff.
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post #1136 of 1679 Old 08-09-2014, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
First off, the majority of what we watch is not in motion. CBS' estimate was that over 90% of what we watch is static or nearly static in nature.

Second, not all LCDs have the same motion handling ability. So to say that UHD and even FHD 'loses all of its benefits' is nothing but hyperbole.
first of all even small moves are effected by this issue. so this 90% is maybe true for talk shows and there are a lot of this stuff.
but movies? nope...

I just repeat my self here:
Quote:
without very special treatment like sony impulse or lightboost hacked LCDs. motion is has a very low resolution on LCD or shows terrible artefacts with frame creation.
go through reviews that check this. this site test motion handling.
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/ue46h...1407153854.htm

if you find a LCD screen with 2160 lines it has to use something like the sony impulse mode or samsung BFI. and this adds flicker and lowers brightness by "a lot". a very good way to fix it.

these frame creating algorithms always add problems there is no perfect out there and never will be because it is interpolation of things that doesn't exist.

this is common-sense if you know how LCD work. it's the simple trust. OLED got the same problems...
only refresh type displays have perfect motion handling.
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post #1137 of 1679 Old 08-09-2014, 08:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
first of all even small moves are effected by this issue. so this 90% is maybe true for talk shows and there are a lot of this stuff.
but movies? nope...

I just repeat my self here:


go through reviews that check this. this site test motion handling.
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/ue46h...1407153854.htm

if you find a LCD screen with 2160 lines it has to use something like the sony impulse mode or samsung BFI. and this adds flicker and lowers brightness by "a lot". a very good way to fix it.

these frame creating algorithms always add problems there is no perfect out there and never will be because it is interpolation of things that doesn't exist.

this is common-sense if you know how LCD work. it's the simple trust. OLED got the same problems...
only refresh type displays have perfect motion handling.
Not perfect. But not the issue you make itnout to be anymore.
"Brightness, flicker and double ghost images – three issues that plague most BFI systems, even Sony’s excellent Impulse mode to some extent – have been addressed effectively on the UE-55HU8500. With [LED Clear Motion] engaged, the television had no problem hitting our peak luminance target of 120 cd/m2 for critical viewing, or even higher for daytime use. Samsung’s skilful implementation of BFI also meant that we didn’t really see much flicker on photorealistic content except during truly bright scenes, or double image ghosting beyond test patterns."

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/ue55hu8500-201404163710.htm
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post #1138 of 1679 Old 08-09-2014, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
First off, the majority of what we watch is not in motion. CBS' estimate was that over 90% of what we watch is static or nearly static in nature.
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post #1139 of 1679 Old 08-09-2014, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Mrorange303 View Post
Not perfect. But not the issue you make itnout to be anymore.
"Brightness, flicker and double ghost images – three issues that plague most BFI systems, even Sony’s excellent Impulse mode to some extent – have been addressed effectively on the UE-55HU8500. With [LED Clear Motion] engaged, the television had no problem hitting our peak luminance target of 120 cd/m2 for critical viewing, or even higher for daytime use. Samsung’s skilful implementation of BFI also meant that we didn’t really see much flicker on photorealistic content except during truly bright scenes, or double image ghosting beyond test patterns."

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/ue55h...1404163710.htm
I know that they are going in the right way. but how do you sell a TV with 120 cm². not at all ? a 120 cm² screen in a bright room looks bad compared to a bright TV next to it. the same problem has plasma. they look bad in a very bright room.

there was a reason I listed BFI and sony impulse mode. but most Tv can't do something like this with interpolation. even through these modes disable (or at least did in the past, this is rarely tested) 4:4:4 support and use downsampling... very very bad for PC uses (HTPC) and gaming.

so we are back at the reason why they don't use high motion clips in stores.
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post #1140 of 1679 Old 08-09-2014, 09:18 PM
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Thumbs up Proof That UK Demo of 55-inch TVs At 9 Feet Is Bogus

Our AVS members can quickly prove for themselves how ludicrous the claim is that 49 out of 50 people at a dealer demo in the UK could see resolution differences between a 1080p TV and a UHD TV at 9 feet.

If you're a fellow AVS member who has vision approximating 20/20, or your vision is corrected to 20/20, you can try a little experiment. Stand a few feet in front of a calibrated 55-inch 1080p TV. Observe the TV's pixel structure. Then, very slowly back away from the TV until the visibility of the pixels has just been lost. At that point you are just at the borderline where it's still possible for you to see the tiniest details that 1080p can produce. If you move any significant distance further away from the screen you lose your ability to see all of a 1080p's detail. And you sure wouldn't see the even more minute details that the same size UHD screen would offer.

There is a mathematical formula that defines the maximum distance a person with 20/20 vision (or corrected to 20/20) can be from a 1080p screen, and still be able to see all the detail that a 1080p display can provide.

That formula is the screen diagonal measurement multiplied by 1.56

So in the case of a 55-inch 1080p TV you have 55 X 1.56 = 85.8 inches. BTW this formula only applies to 16X9 aspect ratio screens. And rounding that figure up a mere 2 tenths of an inch gives us a more manageable total
of 86 inches or 7 feet 2 inches.

And I would bet $20 bills against donuts that a majority of our AVS members can no longer see the pixels on a 55" 1080p display when they are 7 ft 4 inches from it. And those folks would be unable to see any additional detail
at that distance, that would be provided by a 55" UHD. If you can't see all the detail with 1080p, 4k sure isn't going to help you.

Consumer Reports tests 160 to 200 different TV models each year, and their experience confirms the 1.56 formula. In the Sept 2014 issue of CR, (now available at your local library) a statement is made about the findings of their test specialists regarding 65-inch UHD TVs vs 65-inch HDTVs, which were viewed at an 8 foot distance.
So the comments regarding those sets applied to that distance. I'll quote their findings that are found on page 37:

" On a very large screen, say, 84 inches and up, you can really appreciate UHD. But with a 65-inch screen like the ones we tested, most viewers would probably think that the HDTV looked just as good."

Now here's a chance to use the 1.56 formula again, which BTW, Consumer Reports was not involved in developing. 1.56 X 65 inches gives us 101.4 inches or 8 feet 5.4 inches as the furthest distance that someone with
20/20 vision can be from a 65-inch 1080p screen and still see its full resolution. That's pretty close to the 8 ft that CR mentioned, but does mean that a 65-inch UHD TV might have an advantage in perceived resolution all the way up to the 8 ft 5.4 inch mark which is the distance that person with 20/20 could just still make out all of the detail of
1080p.

All of the previous really exposes what a joke that demonstration in the UK was. We are expected to believe that 49 out of 50 people possessed the kind of uncommon "fighter pilot quality vision" that they would need to separate
1080p from UHD on relatively small 55" screens from 9 feet away. I might accept that 5, or to really stretch it, 10
people in a group like that, might possess that unusual ability, but 49 of 50, what person who just didn't get off the boat, falls for that kind of incredible BS. I've read a lot about Richard Nixon, but very few things that the man said
ever went that far in straining credulity. Yeah, either that 1080p set was functioning more like a standard definition
unit, or the head of this promotion laid one of the tallest tales on an unsuspecting public since it was said that Paul Bunyon fell a mighty oak tree with one swing of his ax.

Finally, if you just want to see for yourself that I haven't just been blowing smoke here, then do me a favor and perform your own 1080p pixel test. When you can't see them anymore, a 4k TV will give you no extra perceived
detail at the distance you find yourself at, with the same size screen that you use for the test.
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