UHD/4K Quandary: To Buy or Not to Buy - Page 42 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1231 of 2257 Old 08-10-2014, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post
Do you know of any Blu-ray where >50% of the time nothing is in motion? Most of them? Are you saying over 50% of the time, a frame (eg. in a Blu-ray) will be identical (object/camera position) to the one before it (excluding cuts?)?
If you read what CBS stated, it said "Static or NEARLY STATIC". I suggest you watch TV a bit more closely. As I watch TV, I see the CBS figures tend to match what I actually watch on TV. Most scenes in dramas ARE 'static or NEARLY static'. If the motion is not quick, the resolution is not greatly impacted. And again, LCDs vary in their ability to hold resolution even with motion. They are not all created equal.

But hey, I guess some here know far more about this than CBS that spent a good deal of money in determining whether 1080i or 720p was the way to go and hence the study results. Just as an aside for those that are actually interested in OBJECTIVE thinking. CBS did not have as much sports as networks such as ABC or ESPN. Hence those networks decided 720p was the better route whereas CBS, with a wide variety of programming, decided 1080i was the better way to go. So I look forward to another 100 posts that will refute this point. Perhaps I should post the phone number of Bob Ross, who was the Chief Video Engineer with CBS at the time. You can argue with him. It never ends.

Torturous, utterly torturous. How many times will we go round and round and round and round and round. Is nobody tiring of this?
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post #1232 of 2257 Old 08-10-2014, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post
"49 out of 50"

48 out of 49 people who entered the prize draw were correct.
Oh my, excuse me...I realize now that with such a paltry percentage of correct 'guesses' or 'cheaters', this test did indeed mean nothing.
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post #1233 of 2257 Old 08-10-2014, 04:30 PM
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i was asking Ken Ross directly.
If I see him, I'll ask him.
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post #1234 of 2257 Old 08-10-2014, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
If you read what CBS stated, it said "Static or NEARLY STATIC". I suggest you watch TV a bit more closely. As I watch TV, I see the CBS figures tend to match what I actually watch on TV. Most scenes in dramas ARE 'static or NEARLY static'. If the motion is not quick, the resolution is not greatly impacted. And again, LCDs vary in their ability to hold resolution even with motion. They are not all created equal.

But hey, I guess some here know far more about this than CBS that spent a good deal of money in determining whether 1080i or 720p was the way to go and hence the study results. Just as an aside for those that are actually interested in OBJECTIVE thinking. CBS did not have as much sports as networks such as ABC or ESPN. Hence those networks decided 720p was the better route whereas CBS, with a wide variety of programming, decided 1080i was the better way to go. So I look forward to another 100 posts that will refute this point. Perhaps I should post the phone number of Bob Ross, who was the Chief Video Engineer with CBS at the time. You can argue with him. It never ends.

Torturous, utterly torturous. How many times will we go round and round and round and round and round. Is nobody tiring of this?
Presumably soap operas and the news counts towards that 95% static total. TV game shows and late night talk shows, too. And sitcoms. Lots of static camera shots on TV. But not so much movies. That has everything to do with the nature of TV programming vs. how movies are made—budgets and all that. Many movies have a lot more motion than TV, and movies are a lot more worthwhile to watch under the best possible conditions.

Here we are in a thread about UHD and you are discussing 720p vs. 1080i TV material. I want to discuss content that has a real chance to look better on a UHDTV, not why CBS shows have almost no camera movement or action. I'm interested in how a TV handles a movie like Need for Speed, and whether I can get that that movie in UHD/4K, to compare to the Blu-ray.

Mark Henninger

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post #1235 of 2257 Old 08-10-2014, 04:34 PM
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Most movies I watch have more than three minutes of non-static footage per hour. Usually a lot more.
Mark, you're really pushing this and I have to tell you it's borderline annoying. Did you notice, for the FIFTH time, I said the average of ALL CONTENT. That includes, talking head shows, movies, sports, dramas, serials, comedies, specials...did I leave something else. It does NOT mean the average of all content that Mark watches, or all movie content that Mark watches. I'm just waiting for the next post that says "I don't know, when I watched that action movie, there was more than 3 minutes of non-static footage".

Excuse me while I knock my head against a hard wall.
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post #1236 of 2257 Old 08-10-2014, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Presumably soap operas and the news counts towards that 95% static total. TV game shows and late night talk shows, too. But not so much movies. That has everything to do with the nature of TV programming. Movies have a lot more motion, and movies are a lot more worthwhile to watch under the best possible conditions.

Here we are in a thread about UHD and you are discussing 720p vs. 1080i TV material. I want to discuss content that has a real chance to look better on a UHDTV, not why CBS shows have almost no camera movement or action.
That's YOUR opinion. I brought up the 720p vs 1080i because it was pertinent to the CBS study and THAT was relevant to the discussion of motion handling. Sorry you can't see that.

OK guys, have fun, I'm outta here. Sorry, this thread is so done for me. I have never seen such 'devil's advocacy' in a thread on AVS.
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post #1237 of 2257 Old 08-10-2014, 04:38 PM
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it's nice how you think motion blur is limited to fast moving scene.

but in fact it doesn't matter if just a very small things is in motion or the whole picture. so what does it matter if most picture have low motion it's still there...
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post #1238 of 2257 Old 08-10-2014, 04:39 PM
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Mark, you're really pushing this and I have to tell you it's borderline annoying. Did you notice, for the FIFTH time, I said the average of ALL CONTENT. That includes, talking head shows, movies, sports, dramas, serials, comedies, specials...did I leave something else. It does NOT mean the average of all content that Mark watches, or all movie content that Mark watches. I'm just waiting for the next post that says "I don't know, when I watched that action movie, there was more than 3 minutes of non-static footage".

Excuse me while I knock my head against a hard wall.
Exactly, and what does it matter how a UHDTV renders a 720p talk show? I'm much more interested in how a TV deals with content that takes advantage of UHD/4K resolution, and I'm especially interested in the home theater angle.

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post #1239 of 2257 Old 08-10-2014, 04:42 PM
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First off, the majority of what we watch is not in motion. CBS' estimate was that over 90% of what we watch is static or nearly static in nature.
We are just replying to your posts ,for this is that this forum was created.

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post #1240 of 2257 Old 08-10-2014, 04:54 PM
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Exactly, and what does it matter how a UHDTV renders a 720p talk show? I'm much more interested in how a TV deals with content that takes advantage of UHD/4K resolution, and I'm especially interested in the home theater angle.
That wasn't my point. For my last post here, yes, I too would watch content that takes advantage of 4K resolution. To me the most beautiful 4K imagery is contained within nature & travel shows where motion IS slow and detail IS huge. Any visit to a BB will reveal much of this kind of footage and for me this is what 4K is made for. We each have our own tastes and, they may differ. I love movies too, but I think nothing benefits from 4K like nature & travel shows.

Have fun gentlemen.
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post #1241 of 2257 Old 08-10-2014, 05:07 PM
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Geoffrey has a follow-up to that article, also on CNET: Why Ultra HD 4K TVs are still stupid
At point no.2 he has incorrectly applied the science (massive oversimplification), this has a knock-on effect that invalidates the rest of his points.

The chart he uses is produced some one single number, one fact, which although correct, cannot be applied to every situation. The number used is the angular resolution of a healthy human eye. I can't remember right now what the number is, but the methodology involves being able to tell apart a single black line from two thinner adjacent lines with a gap in the middle, or something pretty similar to that. The first flaw is this methodology (this has been covered many times on various other forums). Basically, someone has assumed that once the gap between two lines 'appears' to dissapear (the gap is no longer perceived) then the resolution is found very simply from that gap size. However, if presented with two single lines where one is thicker than the other, but by less than what the previous experiment tells us we can detect, we can actually detect it.

Secondly, this all applies only to static images, the spatial resolution of the eye increases if it is allowed to view a sequence of images of the same object.

So basically, the article proceeds from a false assumption, that the eye has a well defined 'resolution' just like a TV screen or a camera's CCD. Ofcourse, the eye does not have infinite resolution (which is why his 'sand grains' analogy seems to make sense), but nor is it a simple value like for a TV or camera, the resolution of the human eye varies massively depending on what is being viewed.

It also varies massively across your field of view. You don't notice (because your brain does such a good job of filling in the gaps) but the resolution of your eye in the centre of your field of vision (an area about half the size of your fist at arm's length) is many many times greater than it is in the rest of your field of view. Check this out: https://xkcd.com/1080/large/
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post #1242 of 2257 Old 08-10-2014, 05:15 PM
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4k do not make people said WOW at a normal seating distance ,,,its simple... can you tell the difference at 9' ?maybe.. but is not like WOW that's very impressive.
Well i dont know as they never said it was about wow.

It was can a person tell the difference of the sets.

It may have been shortcomings of the 1080p set compared to the 4k set.

We dont know.

But we know a larfe number can tell. I can tell. I only find people here who cant tell. Every person outside these forums only care that the picture looks better to them.

And thats also what the point is about 4k.

You have to see it. It may be worth it to you now. It might not be.

You may benefit from 9'. You may not. Go see one in person.

The wow factor is debatable. We all like different things so we cant all be pleased by it.
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post #1243 of 2257 Old 08-10-2014, 05:25 PM
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Well i dont know as they never said it was about wow.

It was can a person tell the difference of the sets.

It may have been shortcomings of the 1080p set compared to the 4k set.

We dont know.

But we know a larfe number can tell. I can tell. I only find people here who cant tell. Every person outside these forums only care that the picture looks better to them.

And thats also what the point is about 4k.

You have to see it. It may be worth it to you now. It might not be.

You may benefit from 9'. You may not. Go see one in person.

The wow factor is debatable. We all like different things so we cant all be pleased by it.
and how to disable the picture computer in a shop?

I mean you have to make sure to see the resolution not some post processing. so a totally calibrated screen is a must have for this test.
if you think a UHD screen looks better with sharping you can't say it looks better because it is UHD. because you are watching a post processed image not a real UHD image. is it better because it is UHD or because it is post processed it's not possible to tell.
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post #1244 of 2257 Old 08-10-2014, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Presumably soap operas and the news counts towards that 95% static total. TV game shows and late night talk shows, too. And sitcoms. Lots of static camera shots on TV. But not so much movies. That has everything to do with the nature of TV programming vs. how movies are made—budgets and all that. Many movies have a lot more motion than TV, and movies are a lot more worthwhile to watch under the best possible conditions.

Here we are in a thread about UHD and you are discussing 720p vs. 1080i TV material. I want to discuss content that has a real chance to look better on a UHDTV, not why CBS shows have almost no camera movement or action. I'm interested in how a TV handles a movie like Need for Speed, and whether I can get that that movie in UHD/4K, to compare to the Blu-ray.
Ok well i think it does look better with 1080i material like ota with a football game. The motion was more clear than my 1080p set also. Not huge. But my 1080p set is decent.

Also the hu9000 handles current blurays motion better than my 1080p sets. Thsts part of the reason i say it looks better.

Then mighty huhn gets all technical and we end up at its getting better but yes its still there.

I also would like to know when i can start getting movies in uhd or 4k. But i want physical unlike you. I know it has to be compressed in some form because of that but dang it sometimes its nice.

What would be nice is to keep seeing vudu or uv disk continue with 4k.

The better the source the less pixels, better motion etc right now.
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post #1245 of 2257 Old 08-10-2014, 05:35 PM
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post #1246 of 2257 Old 08-10-2014, 05:36 PM
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What will be the native resolution of the 4K feed from announced content providers? What is the native resolution of the 4K Netflix feed and what will be the native resolution of the 4K Blu-Ray spec (if there is any rumour on it as yet)?

All the current crop of UHD televisions have a native panel resolution of 3840 x 2160 which is exactly four times that of 1080p but the DCI 4K spec is 4096 x 2160 which is found on projectors from Digital Projection, Sim2, Christie Digital and Sony.


Is this 3840 x 2160 the new 720p of sorts till we get all native content delivered in 4096 x 2160 thereby calling it true 4K or Full 4K or [insert name]?
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post #1247 of 2257 Old 08-10-2014, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
and how to disable the picture computer in a shop?

I mean you have to make sure to see the resolution not some post processing. so a totally calibrated screen is a must have for this test.
if you think a UHD screen looks better with sharping you can't say it looks better because it is UHD. because you are watching a post processed image not a real UHD image. is it better because it is UHD or because it is post processed it's not possible to tell.
It looks better because it was shot in a higher reolution and is displayed on a television that can taken advantage and display that resolution.

There for its both the uhd aspect and id say again its just technology advances. Things get better. Not gone. But better.

Motion seems less an issue with uhd material. I mean its not visible to me on my set.

Blurays is less than on my 1080p set. Im not saying its processing. Blurays look better.

They look better on my 4k set then on my 1080p set. I have not calibrated the 4k.

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post #1248 of 2257 Old 08-10-2014, 05:42 PM
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I also would like to know when i can start getting movies in uhd or 4k. But i want physical unlike you. I know it has to be compressed in some form because of that but dang it sometimes its nice.
current BD can use up to 40 mbit for non 3d. that doesn't mean they do use this. if VUDU or other streamer like they can use even more for even better picture quality so it's not clear if the next 4k BD is better than streaming and it is not clear for how long.

isn't the plan for about 100 pathetic GB for the 4k BD so 4 layer?
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post #1249 of 2257 Old 08-10-2014, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Haroon Malik View Post
What will be the native resolution of the 4K feed from announced content providers? What is the native resolution of the 4K Netflix feed and what will be the native resolution of the 4K Blu-Ray spec (if there is any rumour on it as yet)?

All the current crop of UHD televisions have a native panel resolution of 3840 x 2160 which is exactly four times that of 1080p but the DCI 4K spec is 4096 x 2160 which is found on projectors from Digital Projection, Sim2, Christie Digital and Sony.


Is this 3840 x 2160 the new 720p of sorts till we get all native content delivered in 4096 x 2160 thereby calling it true 4K or Full 4K or [insert name]?
It is possible. That is an honest and possible future.

Then that bad boy becomes ansuper 1080p set.

Thats basically what current 4k sets are anyway.
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post #1250 of 2257 Old 08-10-2014, 05:45 PM
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It looks better because it was shot in a higher reolution and is displayed on a television that can taken advantage and display that resolution.

There for its both the uhd aspect and id say again its just technology advances. Things get better. Not gone. But better.

Motion seems less an issue with uhd material. I mean its not visible to me on my set.

Blurays is less than on my 1080p set. Im not saying its processing. Blurays look better.

They look better on my 4k set then on my 1080p set. I have not calibrated the 4k.
my point is to make 100 % sure that the improvment is the resolution and nothing else in the TV you need to look at the untouched picture not something else to make 100 % it's the resolution alone.

BTW. I'm pretty sure it is possible but this doesn't change that this should be judge on resolution alone and nothing else.
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post #1251 of 2257 Old 08-10-2014, 05:51 PM
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current BD can use up to 40 mbit for non 3d. that doesn't mean they do use this. if VUDU or other streamer like they can use even more for even better picture quality so it's not clear if the next 4k BD is better than streaming and it is not clear for how long.

isn't the plan for about 100 pathetic GB for the 4k BD so 4 layer?
Yes they are trying to figure out a compression for the next physical data.

Sigh.

But what if the internet goes out. You wont have any content.

Maybe these crazy hard drives will be the next step. We will go back to digital storage devices.

But that would take forever to load up movies. Play them etc.

I love current uhd material as is.

But i really love to watch the internal demoes and 4k content from my free uhd hard drive. That stuff is clean and clear.

So im honestly not sure how that content stuff is shaping up.

Yet i still love how the set handles current material.

I dont want that to go misunderstood. But the set can do much more.

I cant wait for more to actually see it. I wont lie but how could i about that.
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post #1252 of 2257 Old 08-10-2014, 05:59 PM
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Yes they are trying to figure out a compression for the next physical data.
this is up to VP9, h265 HEVC and h264 AVC.
but this is going hard offtopic if I continue.
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post #1253 of 2257 Old 08-10-2014, 06:00 PM
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my point is to make 100 % sure that the improvment is the resolution and nothing else in the TV you need to look at the untouched picture not something else to make 100 % it's the resolution alone.

BTW. I'm pretty sure it is possible but this doesn't change that this should be judge on resolution alone and nothing else.
I dont know. Obviously i dont think they did that. But i get the benefit. I dont think there would be any other real perceived difference.

The resolition alone still to many is a nice bump in quality.

I think even if its all i got out of this minus the other stuff id still just take it as a super resolution tv.

Thats not bad. Really.
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post #1254 of 2257 Old 08-10-2014, 06:02 PM
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this is up to VP9, h265 HEVC and h264 AVC.
but this is going hard offtopic if I continue.
I understand no need. It gets deep. Im in it now with youtube vs netflix talk all the time in the 4k owners forums. Gets deep.
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post #1255 of 2257 Old 08-10-2014, 06:06 PM
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Arguing against 4K is like arguing against the sun coming up. Either way it's happening.

Even if you are one of the few that can not see the resolution benefit, the 4K standard will bring WCG and HDR which everyone can. The ultimate case for 4K is that it will make all those dead pixels on our new 4K OLED sets much harder to see.
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post #1256 of 2257 Old 08-10-2014, 06:13 PM
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Arguing against 4K is like arguing against the sun coming up. Either way it's happening.

Even if you are one of the few that can not see the resolution benefit, the 4K standard will bring WCG and HDR which everyone can. The ultimate case for 4K is that it will make all those dead pixels on our new 4K OLED sets much harder to see.
Fwiw, here's what I think of UHD/4K so far... UHD/4K First Impressions

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post #1257 of 2257 Old 08-10-2014, 06:39 PM
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But hey, I guess some here know far more about this than CBS that spent a good deal of money in determining whether 1080i or 720p was the way to go and hence the study results. Just as an aside for those that are actually interested in OBJECTIVE thinking. CBS did not have as much sports as networks such as ABC or ESPN. Hence those networks decided 720p was the better route whereas CBS, with a wide variety of programming, decided 1080i was the better way to go. So I look forward to another 100 posts that will refute this point. Perhaps I should post the phone number of Bob Ross, who was the Chief Video Engineer with CBS at the time. You can argue with him. It never ends.
Uh... 1080i60 has just as much temporal information as 720p60. It seem like you're retelling some sort of anecdote that has gotten misconstrued / confused somewhere along the way.
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post #1258 of 2257 Old 08-10-2014, 06:48 PM
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I understand the argument for waiting to buy a tv if you don't need a new one now. I don't understand how some people can't see the difference between a good 4k tv showing 4k content and a 1080p tv showing 1080p content if they have fully functioning eyes. I own a 50" Panasonic Kuro and the 70" 4K LCD tvs I've seen are a dramatic improvement. It's not even close and I am someone who has always disliked LCD tv.
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post #1259 of 2257 Old 08-10-2014, 06:56 PM
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I understand the argument for waiting to buy a tv if you don't need a new one now. I don't understand how some people can't see the difference between a good 4k tv showing 4k content and a 1080p tv showing 1080p content if they have fully functioning eyes. I own a 50" Panasonic Kuro and the 70" 4K LCD tvs I've seen are a dramatic improvement. It's not even close and I am someone who has always disliked LCD tv.
A Panasonic Kuro? Are you sure your eyes are functioning properly?
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post #1260 of 2257 Old 08-10-2014, 07:32 PM
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A Panasonic Kuro? Are you sure your eyes are functioning properly?


Which one? Panasonic viera or a Pioneer kuro? but Panasonic Kuro

Living Room:Panasonic 65"VT60 / Marantz SR7005 / Marantz UD7007 / 2 PSA XS30 / Revel Performa3 F206 / Revel Performa3 C205 / Revel Surrounds / Sonos Connect / Roku3 /Amazon Fire tv / Xbox One / PS4 / HTPC / Darbee 5000 / Sonos Play:1 for bedrooms,kitchen,bathrooms / Master Bedroom: Panasonic 55"VT60 / Sonos Sound Bar / Sonos Sub and Sonos Play 1 Surrounds/Vizio LED in 3 Bedrooms and Dining Room.


Last edited by losservatore; 08-10-2014 at 07:44 PM.
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