UHD/4K Quandary: To Buy or Not to Buy - Page 49 - AVS Forum
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post #1441 of 1818 Old 08-13-2014, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Mrorange303 View Post
Stop Posting personal messages to me. I have every right to post in this thread as you do.

I have had many opportunity to do it to you but i never do. I only ask you to contribute info to this thread thay helps a potential buyer.

Disagreeing with me is fine. Continuing to attack me personally is not.

I get you dont agree with me. Potential buyera who may not be hardcore gamers want want to still know if its been an issue.

I can answer that question from months of hands on experience playing ps4 battlefield. X1 cod.

If you can provide rhay type of info to a potential buyer please do. If not then allow me to as it helps the threads topic.

Thanks.
Saying it's "not an issue: offers zero value. Everyone reacts to input lag differently, and some people don't notice it because they've never gamed on ultra fast monitors before. That's why there are set scientific ways to measure it, and hard numbers. Stop saying it's not an issue. Nobody cares what you personally feel about input lag. I'll continue to trust the actual facts and hard numbers. We get it doesn't bother you, but that means absolutely nothing. I'm not sure how/why you can't get that. It's basic logic. You're responding to scientific facts with YOUR OPINION. I don't need to own a 4K set to see the numbers from the tests. It's called being an educated consumer. It's not even about 4K TVs. I wouldn't buy a 1080P set with high input lag either. It just happens that 4K sets can't reach the low input lag rates of the best of their 1080P predecessors yet.

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post #1442 of 1818 Old 08-13-2014, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by BaeckerX1 View Post
That's Bodnar, 41.4ms. And that's the BEST of the 4K sets so far. I agree with you. That's why I won't buy a 4K HDTV anytime soon. This guy saying a 100+ input lag doesn't affect gaming doesn't know what he's talking about.
Oh don't mind him-- he disagrees with everyone that doesn't pray at the alter of 4k. In his and a few others minds we're all here with an agenda to put down 4k and keep people from buying it. Lol! Actually it sounds even more ridiculous when I take the time to type it out... He'd probably flip if he heard I just recommended a 4k display to a family member-- since I'm so, you know, biased against it.
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post #1443 of 1818 Old 08-13-2014, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by PF View Post
Very much agreed. 4K is not a marginal upgrade. That's why UHD TVs are selling. It's not just marketing, as many of the snarky posters here claim...
M*nster C*bles sell too. Should we apply your same logic to them as well?
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post #1444 of 1818 Old 08-13-2014, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
You crack me up.

The link I just sent you was from one of David K's fellow editors saying that David apparently can't see it or is insensitive to it. What else do you want me to tell you? David K says he has a hard time seeing it but in the very article you post goes on to say that he's received plenty of feedback that it is an issue for many so maybe a test should be included. Meanwhile, Hdtvtest.co.uk has the gear and tests for motion resolution as they feel it is an important aspect of a display's performance (they were one of the first major reviewers to test for input lag as well when every other outfit was downplaying it's importance or even it's existence-- David K has also stated he's not sensitive to lag). All of this makes a lot more sense than you claiming something doesn't exist that clearly does. Motion performance has recently been a complaint in the OLED owners' threads as OLED uses the same sample-and-hold method that LCD does. This is a problem for many, many people.
It is pretty clear that you are a LCd hater. What's the point posting in a LCd thread?
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post #1445 of 1818 Old 08-13-2014, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by BaeckerX1 View Post
Saying it's "not an issue: offers zero value. Everyone reacts to input lag differently, and some people don't notice it because they've never gamed on ultra fast monitors before. That's why there are set scientific ways to measure it, and hard numbers. Stop saying it's not an issue. Nobody cares what you personally feel about input lag. I'll continue to trust the actual facts and hard numbers. We get it doesn't bother you, but that means absolutely nothing. I'm not sure how/why you can't get that. It's basic logic. You're responding to scientific facts with YOUR OPINION. I don't need to own a 4K set to see the numbers from the tests. It's called being an educated consumer. It's not even about 4K TVs. I wouldn't buy a 1080P set with high input lag either. It just happens that 4K sets can't reach the low input lag rates of the best of their 1080P predecessors yet.
It is my opinion. Who said science has tested how i with my eyes play on my 4k set.

Were you expecting that published in popular science?

And plenty of people play on 4k sets just fine.

I guess we are all liars. Because we game on 4k sets just fine.

In fact im often in the top 5 at the end of matches.

So if you cant do it thats you. But dont say i have issues. If yiu have issues thats your issue.
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post #1446 of 1818 Old 08-13-2014, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
Oh don't mind him-- he disagrees with everyone that doesn't pray at the alter of 4k. In his and a few others minds we're all here with an agenda to put down 4k and keep people from buying it. Lol! Actually it sounds even more ridiculous when I take the time to type it out... He'd probably flip if he heard I just recommended a 4k display to a family member-- since I'm so, you know, biased against it.
The 4K Paladin doesn't even get that I'd actually like to buy a 4K TV at some point, once they get the input lag numbers down further. I've got nothing against 4K sets, I just want the best move (and gaming) experience possible for my money. Extra pixels require extra power and extra upscaling requires more processing. More processing equals more input lag. That's why gaming modes disable all the extra motion processing features and everything else. That Sony is 128ms in Cinema mode. You can't get around that. So until the processors become more efficient (not to mention more 4K content being available), I'll wait to purchase a 4K set.

People who spend a lot of money tend to vehemently defend their purchases, and often ignore basic facts. I don't even know why I bother, except to correct his misinformation that may steer others the wrong way.
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post #1447 of 1818 Old 08-13-2014, 03:38 PM
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"UHD/4K Quandary: To Buy or Not to Buy"

After wasting too much time browsing these endless arguments, my quandary has been resolved. 1) Try to quit reading this thread. 2) I will not buy a UHD/4K TV or Projector in the near future. I'll enjoy 480, 720 and 1080 line content on my present equipment. When UHD/4K standards have been set and reasonable content delivery methods are available, I'll take another look at the question.
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post #1448 of 1818 Old 08-13-2014, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
It is pretty clear that you are a LCd hater. What's the point posting in a LCd thread?
Lol! There it is! The crux of every 'fanboy' argument!

First of all: not an LCD hater. Saying I could hate one technology would assume I could love any technology. I love my sister. I love my cat. I don't love any of my TVs... any of them. Not our plasma, not our many (as in plural, as in more than one by a bunch) LCDs, not our DLP, not even our CRT RPTV. None. Second. As I said I own several LCDs, but even if I didn't-- I can't post in a thread discussing the merits of upgrading to 4k today? Is that a rule? Third. This thread was filed in LCD but was posted originally on the homepage for a larger audience to see anyway.

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post #1449 of 1818 Old 08-13-2014, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Z-Mad View Post
LOL, take it easy guys... One of the moderators is likely to shut the whole thread down soon if this continues, lol This has turned into one of the probably most aggressive threads on AVS...

Mrorange, you and I have had plenty exchanges in this thread, and you know I'm not looking for another "contest" here, but please try to be a little more open-minded to analyze the scientific end of things. I think you may find the entire discussion even more interesting that way, rather than always saying "I don't see it, therefore I don't care what any scientific measurement or anyone else's experience suggests". I have to agree with BaeckerX1 that input-leg matters greatly for gaming. I am not making any specific statement on any particular set (be it 2K or 4K), but this is common knowledge and common sense. Just like the whole discussion of some people perceiving the 4K resolution difference more than others, some people are also perceiving input lag difference, especially with games like first-person-shooters (and I have to include myself in that category). I do notice the difference between playing on my 2 TV's due to their different input lag. There are plenty of times where I know my bullet was slower than the opponent's not because I reacted slower, but because my input lagged more... This is not something easily perceived visually, but if you game enough and pay attention, you might notice it. If you are ranking say number 4 or 5 now, maybe you would have ended up number 3 or 2, or even at the top if you had lower input lag. Just because you didn't particularly notice it and think it's fine doesn't mean it isn't there... Try to give that some thought...I duly acknowledge it is something you don't particularly notice or perceive, so it may not be an issue for your gaming needs, and that's perfectly fine - not meant as an attack on you. But input lag is a valid measurement that is indeed important for gaming, and for some potential buyers this may be of importance, even if it isn't to you... Let's remain fair...
I never argued the science come on Z. I said i still play just fine. I even said my set is known to have the highest lag this year and i can still manage to gamw ok on it.

Thats all i was saying.

It ws almost like he was saying i was wrong. I think if you read my post again you will see i never argued the lag is there.

I said i still game with no issues.

You and i both know thats personal taste and cannot be wrong.
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post #1450 of 1818 Old 08-13-2014, 04:20 PM
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Guys, this relentless bickering has got to stop!

Just to clear the issue a little (I have not read most of the posts here), gaming lag time is most certainly an issue with serious FPS gamers, among others. The lag time (for me, anyway) must be less than 30 ms or it is not good enough for me to play my games...end of story. If a HD or UHD set has a lag time greater than 30 ms, then it most certainly is bad for fast paced gaming. It is not a resolution issue...simply a matter of input lag time, so whether the set is standard HD or UHD makes no difference, because you are measuring the wrong metric. So arguing about HD vs. UHD for gaming is pointless, as the resolution, ONCE AGAIN, is not the issue.

Personally speaking, I have not found ANY television set that I can game effectively on, as even a small amount of input lag can have devastating effects on fast paced FPS games, and I just don't want my display device to be an excuse for me dying all the time...

As a result, I use computer monitors only, and I insist on lag times between 0 and 5 ms. If you play nothing but grass growing games (like The Sims), then slow lag times can be totally acceptable. It simply depends on what type of games you play.

So, once again, I insist that you guys STOP discussing gaming input lag times, as resolution has absolutely no bearing on gaming, and the HD vs. UHD debate should be pointed at other metrics, such as picture quality, detail, black level, etc.

Any more posts about gaming lag times will be considered off topic and people will be banned WITHOUT FURTHER NOTICE.
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post #1451 of 1818 Old 08-13-2014, 05:28 PM
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Just to be clear, I am not saying that you guys can not discuss input lag times...you can...just discuss, in a friendly, non confrontational way, the actual numbers (30 ms, 60 ms, etc.) and allow each person to decide for himself whether or not that particular number will work for their own gaming needs. My point is that input lag times can be low or high for ANY set, and making blanket statements that HD or UHD is better or worse for "gaming" is a pointless discussion, as each person has different needs/wants and input lag times are independent of resolution.

I hope this clears things up.
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post #1452 of 1818 Old 08-13-2014, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Johnson View Post
"UHD/4K Quandary: To Buy or Not to Buy"

After wasting too much time browsing these endless arguments, my quandary has been resolved. 1) Try to quit reading this thread. 2) I will not buy a UHD/4K TV or Projector in the near future. I'll enjoy 480, 720 and 1080 line content on my present equipment. When UHD/4K standards have been set and reasonable content delivery methods are available, I'll take another look at the question.
Lol! That's good advice. I almost peed myself when I read your number 1.
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post #1453 of 1818 Old 08-13-2014, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by R Johnson View Post
When UHD/4K standards have been set and reasonable content delivery methods are available, I'll take another look at the question.
By then, I'm sure this thread will have been abandoned, so it should all work out.
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post #1454 of 1818 Old 08-13-2014, 06:32 PM
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Question Questions About OLED's Motion Resolution

Noticed that a few members, including sage11x, have been discussing differences between the 3 major TV technologies in the area of motion resolution.

If the motion resolution of OLED was as good as that of plasma, that would be another reason, besides black level, to hold out until quite large (by which I mean 85" or above) UHD OLEDs become available, at reasonable prices.

Unfortunately, though, it is my understanding that the motion resolution of the OLEDs available so far, has fallen somewhere between plasma and LCD.

Of the OLEDs tested so far, has their motion resolution been closer to that of plasma or of LCD?

And in one of his posts, sage11x mentioned that, in theory OLEDs could be improved in the area of sample and hold, which could have a positive effect on motion resolution performance. Would very much appreciate it if someone could offer a brief explanation of sample and hold. On the surface it sounds like something that would be connected with refresh rate, but I don't really know.

Anyway, I'd be grateful for any info that fellow AVS members could provide.
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post #1455 of 1818 Old 08-13-2014, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by sarahb75 View Post
Noticed that a few members, including sage11x, have been discussing differences between the 3 major TV technologies in the area of motion resolution.

If the motion resolution of OLED was as good as that of plasma, that would be another reason, besides black level, to hold out until quite large (by which I mean 85" or above) UHD OLEDs become available, at reasonable prices.

Unfortunately, though, it is my understanding that the motion resolution of the OLEDs available so far, has fallen somewhere between plasma and LCD.

Of the OLEDs tested so far, has their motion resolution been closer to that of plasma or of LCD?

And in one of his posts, sage11x mentioned that, in theory OLEDs could be improved in the area of sample and hold, which could have a positive effect on motion resolution performance. Would very much appreciate it if someone could offer a brief explanation of sample and hold. On the surface it sounds like something that would be connected with refresh rate, but I don't really know.

Anyway, I'd be grateful for any info that fellow AVS members could provide.
OLED has the same issue with motion as LCD there is no difference. the way to fix it is the same and the reason for it too.
motion blur is a issue create by our brain. it is very very easy to fix you just need a "black screen" between each frame that's it. so all refresh type display doesn't have a problem with this (plasma, CRT, ...).
by doing this you add flicker in and you can lose a lot of CR with LCD displays because the display looks dim thanks to the "black frames" so a higher brightness is needed this is improved with OLED they don't care if the brightness is higher black is still at zero. but the next problem is you need a lot brighter display to get a proper picture with LCD.to fix the flicker you just need a very high refreshrate. some people doesn't notice this with 120 hz refresh rate some still notice this with 600+.
a laser or laser projection base display should fix all issue with black and motion blur not going to happen it's not flat...
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post #1456 of 1818 Old 08-13-2014, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
OLED has the same issue with motion as LCD there is no difference. the way to fix it is the same and the reason for it too.
motion blur is a issue create by our brain. it is very very easy to fix you just need a "black screen" between each frame that's it. so all refresh type display doesn't have a problem with this (plasma, CRT, ...).
by doing this you add flicker in and you can lose a lot of CR with LCD displays because the display looks dim thanks to the "black frames" so a higher brightness is needed this is improved with OLED they don't care if the brightness is higher black is still at zero. but the next problem is you need a lot brighter display to get a proper picture with LCD.to fix the flicker you just need a very high refreshrate. some people doesn't notice this with 120 hz refresh rate some still notice this with 600+.
a laser or laser projection base display should fix all issue with black and motion blur not going to happen it's not flat...
Explained very well.
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post #1457 of 1818 Old 08-13-2014, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by sarahb75 View Post
Noticed that a few members, including sage11x, have been discussing differences between the 3 major TV technologies in the area of motion resolution.

If the motion resolution of OLED was as good as that of plasma, that would be another reason, besides black level, to hold out until quite large (by which I mean 85" or above) UHD OLEDs become available, at reasonable prices.

Unfortunately, though, it is my understanding that the motion resolution of the OLEDs available so far, has fallen somewhere between plasma and LCD.

Of the OLEDs tested so far, has their motion resolution been closer to that of plasma or of LCD?

And in one of his posts, sage11x mentioned that, in theory OLEDs could be improved in the area of sample and hold, which could have a positive effect on motion resolution performance. Would very much appreciate it if someone could offer a brief explanation of sample and hold. On the surface it sounds like something that would be connected with refresh rate, but I don't really know.

Anyway, I'd be grateful for any info that fellow AVS members could provide.
Maybe this helps (from wikipedia):
"For practically all commercial liquid crystal active matrix displays based on TN, IPS or VA electro-optic LC cells (excluding bi-stable phenomena), each pixel represents a small capacitor, which has to be periodically charged to a level corresponding to the greyscale value (contrast) desired for a picture element. In order to maintain the level during a scanning cycle (frame period), an additional electric capacitor is attached in parallel to each LC pixel to better hold the voltage. A thin-film FET switch is addressed to select a particular LC pixel and charge the picture information for it. In contrast to an S/H (sample and hold) in general electronics, there is no output operational amplifier and no electrical signal AO. Instead, the charge on the hold capacitors controls the deformation of the LC molecules and thereby the optical effect as its output. The invention of this concept and its implementation in thin-film technology have been honored with the IEEE Jun-ichi Nishizawa Medal in 2011.[3]
During a scanning cycle, the picture doesn’t follow the input signal. This does not allow the eye to refresh and can lead to blurring during motion sequences, also the transition is visible between frames because the backlight is constantly illuminated, adding to display motion blur."
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post #1458 of 1818 Old 08-14-2014, 06:41 AM
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No 48FPS standard for The Hobbit? Pah!
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Interestingly timed thread, haven't read every post yet

There has been a lot of desire to futureproof htpc builds for 4k in the htpc forum recently, but it's still too soon to safely say what will be needed. A good guess would just be running 1080p for now on an igpu with a pcie 3.0 x16 slot to run a capable dgpu upgrade later

For display-purchase musings, if your primary content consumption on your display is movie-watching then waiting for hdmi 2 and hdcp 2.2 seems wise
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post #1460 of 1818 Old 08-14-2014, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Johnson View Post
"UHD/4K Quandary: To Buy or Not to Buy"

After wasting too much time browsing these endless arguments, my quandary has been resolved. 1) Try to quit reading this thread. 2) I will not buy a UHD/4K TV or Projector in the near future. I'll enjoy 480, 720 and 1080 line content on my present equipment. When UHD/4K standards have been set and reasonable content delivery methods are available, I'll take another look at the question.
Here here and Amen to that!

Enter all at the strait gate and walk the narrow way.
"I am the way the truth and the life, no one enters the Fathers' Kingdom except through me."

Jesus is the strait gate.
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post #1461 of 1818 Old 08-14-2014, 02:26 PM
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Here here and Amen to that!
You mean "hear, hear" R Johnson does make a good point, but that's why we're discussing these things here, so we can arrive at such conclusion as when is a good time to consider buying a 4K set... So if all the discussions have helped R Johnson arrive at his conclusion, I guess it wasn't for nothing, lol
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post #1462 of 1818 Old 08-14-2014, 02:41 PM
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I think if you are planning to buy a lcd you should get the best 4k you can afford.

If your going plasma or oled then wait for better 4k sets if you miss out on the f8500. If thats your goal i mean.

But the 4k sets are super 1080p sets anyway at the moment.

So if you were specifically thinking lcd. Im just saying go see them in person.

A 4k is the best lcd tv you can buy.
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post #1463 of 1818 Old 08-14-2014, 03:11 PM
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Bang for the buck + Value + Your budget = What TV should I buy. Also, whatever your wife says.
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post #1464 of 1818 Old 08-14-2014, 03:17 PM
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I don't want to be a party pooper but do not paid premium for a UHD now ,all the UHD on the market are missing many enhancements.




READ THE LINK.
SMPTE Webinar: Quad HD to UHDTV




If you still want a UHD TV buy a affordable one.

Last edited by losservatore; 08-14-2014 at 04:11 PM.
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post #1465 of 1818 Old 08-14-2014, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post
Bang for the buck + Value + Your budget = What TV should I buy. Also, whatever your wife says.
Lol. Agreed.
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post #1466 of 1818 Old 08-14-2014, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
I don't want to be a party pooper but do not paid premium for a UHD now ,all the UHD on the market are missing many enhancements.




READ THE LINK.
SMPTE Webinar: Quad HD to UHDTV




If you still want a UHD TV buy a affordable one.
What is your tipping point for the wait time though. By 2018 i would of gotten 4 years of use with my current set.

The samsung sets are upgradable.

I just mean do you keep buying movies in 1080p? Knowing the mastered in 4k copies are out there already for some. The next one up is spiderman 2.

I mean todays sets already upscale. So if you keep buying 1080p stuff for years while waiting on a 4k set when you do get one it could cost a lot to bring your library yp to par for your nice new set.

Although little content is available by end of year and beginning next year things pick up.

So just another aspect is the library. It will also need upgraded at some point. If you get a uhd set now you will at least have a way to begin the next generation of content now. Instead of having to buy the good stuff again in 4 or 5 years.
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post #1467 of 1818 Old 08-14-2014, 06:05 PM
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I think if you are planning to buy a lcd you should get the best 4k you can afford.

If your going plasma or oled then wait for better 4k sets if you miss out on the f8500. If thats your goal i mean.

But the 4k sets are super 1080p sets anyway at the moment.

So if you were specifically thinking lcd. Im just saying go see them in person.

A 4k is the best lcd tv you can buy.
The best TV you can buy is the one with the best picture quality, and that's not decided by the resolution alone... Given the time it will take for 4K content to be standardized and available, etc., I wouldn't discourage anyone from picking up a 1080p TV at this point if that set provides deepest blacks, great motion handling, accurate rich colors, etc. And by the time one would need to buy the next TV, 4K may be more of a standard, and the TV's will have reached the next generation, etc... Just another point of view based on a bit broader look at things...
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post #1468 of 1818 Old 08-14-2014, 06:43 PM
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If you want to jump on the best LCD picture quality with an extra resolution , a FALD LED 4k TV is the best tech that you can get from a LCD ,no edge lit TV.


But wait for the UHD-PHASE 2.

Last edited by losservatore; 08-14-2014 at 06:47 PM.
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post #1469 of 1818 Old 08-14-2014, 07:11 PM
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If you want to jump on the best LCD picture quality with an extra resolution , a FALD LED 4k TV is the best tech that you can get from a LCD ,no edge lit TV.


But wait for the UHD-PHASE 2.
Actually the Sony x950b the only fald 4k is not always the best performer.
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post #1470 of 1818 Old 08-14-2014, 07:32 PM
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Mrorange303 well lets hope that someone make a quality one like the sharp elite.
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