UHD/4K Quandary: To Buy or Not to Buy - Page 50 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1471 of 2263 Old 08-14-2014, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Mrorange303 View Post
Actually the Sony x950b the only fald 4k is not always the best performer.
Aside from Samsung's existing S9, and Toshiba's FALD offerings... plus the Vizio P series that's about to be released, and the forthcoming AX900U from Panasonic...
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post #1472 of 2263 Old 08-14-2014, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Aside from Samsung's existing S9, and Toshiba's FALD offerings... plus the Vizio P series that's about to be released, and the forthcoming AX900U from Panasonic...
Yeah i just ment today. I also want to wait for reviews and etc for those sets.

Some good offerings are coming.

What happens when the Vizio R series is released. Thats not years away. This year and they are mostly future ready.i mean by the standards argument.
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post #1473 of 2263 Old 08-14-2014, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
Mrorange303 well lets hope that someone make a quality one like the sharp elite.
Agreed. We need a new undisputed.
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post #1474 of 2263 Old 08-14-2014, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Mrorange303 View Post
Yeah i just ment today. I also want to wait for reviews and etc for those sets.

Some good offerings are coming.

What happens when the Vizio R series is released. Thats not years away. This year and they are mostly future ready.i mean by the standards argument.
Hard to say. Brave new world! The Vizio R remains the most impressive thing I saw at CES, bar none. The biggest issue (no pun intended) is that it was only shown in two sizes: 65 inches and 120 inches. A third size, something in the 80 inch range, would make it a lot more compelling.

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post #1475 of 2263 Old 08-14-2014, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Z-Mad View Post
The best TV you can buy is the one with the best picture quality, and that's not decided by the resolution alone... Given the time it will take for 4K content to be standardized and available, etc., I wouldn't discourage anyone from picking up a 1080p TV at this point if that set provides deepest blacks, great motion handling, accurate rich colors, etc. And by the time one would need to buy the next TV, 4K may be more of a standard, and the TV's will have reached the next generation, etc... Just another point of view based on a bit broader look at things...
I would encourage them to pick up a plasma 1080p.

I would not encourage a 1080p lcd to be your first choice over a 4k lcd.

But if you chose the f8500 could anyone really fault you? No. Not at all.

Im not saying that you should pass up a 1080p plasma.

That may be whats best for them. They need to determine that. But a lcd is different. Your not gonna find a better 1080p set than a 4k set if we are talking lcd tech.

I am just pointing out that if they prefer lcd to plasma like myself then a 4k is going to gice them the best picture from lcd tech.
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post #1476 of 2263 Old 08-14-2014, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Hard to say. Brave new world! The Vizio R remains the most impressive thing I saw at CES, bar none. The biggest issue (no pun intended) is that it was only shown in two sizes: 65 inches and 120 inches. A third size, something in the 80 inch range, would make it a lot more compelling.
I would love a 65. That size is wonderful.

We can dream about the 120".

I wish i got to check out the hdr on one. Just to see that in person would of did a lot for my impression of 4k.

But i still enjoy my set more than any set ive ever owned. Thsts the important thing.

But that may change when i get to see the R series in person.
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post #1477 of 2263 Old 08-14-2014, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Hard to say. Brave new world! The Vizio R remains the most impressive thing I saw at CES, bar none. The biggest issue (no pun intended) is that it was only shown in two sizes: 65 inches and 120 inches. A third size, something in the 80 inch range, would make it a lot more compelling.
I agree but considering the current state of pricing in flat panels in the 80 inch range I'm not holding my breath that I could ever hope to afford one. 65" seems to be the new threshold before pricing gets silly. I can vouch for the advantages of size: our DLP is 82" and it makes watching movies an event.

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post #1478 of 2263 Old 08-14-2014, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Mrorange303 View Post
I would encourage them to pick up a plasma 1080p.

I would not encourage a 1080p lcd to be your first choice over a 4k lcd.

But if you chose the f8500 could anyone really fault you? No. Not at all.

Im not saying that you should pass up a 1080p plasma.

That may be whats best for them. They need to determine that. But a lcd is different. Your not gonna find a better 1080p set than a 4k set if we are talking lcd tech.

I am just pointing out that if they prefer lcd to plasma like myself then a 4k is going to gice them the best picture from lcd tech.
Yeah, if a specific 4K set happens to hit all the right notes, sure, I wouldn't discourage anyone from getting it either. My main point was rather not to forget all picture aspects apart from res... I am not sure if necessarily every 4K LCD is automatically always better than every 2K LCD (which is why I always like to look at a TV in depth for such a determination), but I am sure today's 4K sets are right up there and likely beat a lot and maybe most of 2K LCD's. If I think of Sharp Elite for example, I'm not so sure if all or even any 4K LCD beats it...

I agree on the F8500, although that sets always makes me a bit "sad" because it took over the best plasma set mainly because Panasonic stepped out with plasmas that already looked even better than the F8500... But sure, F8500 is an awesome plasma set and one of the top choices today in terms of picture quality overall...

Oh, and one can still get a Panny VT60 on amazon
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post #1479 of 2263 Old 08-14-2014, 10:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Hard to say. Brave new world! The Vizio R remains the most impressive thing I saw at CES, bar none. The biggest issue (no pun intended) is that it was only shown in two sizes: 65 inches and 120 inches. A third size, something in the 80 inch range, would make it a lot more compelling.
Yeah that's a weird choice of sizes, jumping from 65" all the way to 120"
I, for example, have a 60" as my biggest set currently, so my next purchase is likely to be in that 80" range (65" just wouldn't be much of an upgrade). 120" would just get too big for the viewing distance, let alone the price... and at that point it may be time to start thinking projector... So right there, I pretty much couldn't consider the Vizio R, which is a shame... You think there is a chance they may round up the lineup with a third set?
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post #1480 of 2263 Old 08-14-2014, 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
Mrorange303 well lets hope that someone make a quality one like the sharp elite.
Chad B posted his review of the HU9000 in the owners forum. Ranked just as good as the Sharp elite.

He gave it basically near perfect color.

I just seen it. Its actually a good review. Ill post it here if you want.
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post #1481 of 2263 Old 08-15-2014, 12:06 AM
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After the exit of Plasma I have been taking every LCD review with a grain of salt ,Remember that this LCD is not longer in the game but it is still a reference LCD TV.

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post #1482 of 2263 Old 08-15-2014, 06:08 AM
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That being said, I don't think anyone is claiming corporations are corrupt - no one ever said that. Naturally they need to make money, and I'd certainly want them to (otherwise my stock portfolio may suffer ), and they need to make money to be able to invest in more R&D, come out with new and better technologies, etc. There is nothing wrong with that at all... It's just that true enthusiasts of picture quality, calibrators and alike are simply a bit disappointed that the manufacturers took an "easy route" by trying to impress with more resolution while not really providing improvements in areas regarded as even more important for picture quality (black levels, motion, dynamic range, color accuracy...). By turning the consumer's focus to 4K, it reduces attention to those other and even more important aspects of TV quality as most mainstream consumers will now likely buy a TV with higher resolution (and pay a bit extra) while paying less attention to those other aspects of PQ.

I think 4K is off to a good start, but manufacturers are going to spoon feed improvements to keep buyers coming back.

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post #1483 of 2263 Old 08-15-2014, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post


Scott Wilkinson muses on whether or not native 4K content is necessary for 4K TVs and the wisdom of buying one now.

I'm on a lot of e-mail distribution lists; one of my faves is Insight Media's Display Central, which sends out a daily news item or blog about something in the display industry. Last week, one of those stories caught my eye—"4K TV Does NOT Require Native 4K Media" by Kenneth Werner. He argues that, because upscalers are so good these days, "experts can't see the difference [between native UHD/4K and the same content upscaled from 1080p] in side-by-side tests from distances of three feet or more. Even at nose-on-the-screen distance, the differences are subtle."

Based on some of the side-by-side demos I've seen, he could be right—at least, when it comes to high-quality upscalers. Ken cites Seiki's UHD/4K TVs as a counterexample—the upscaler in those sets has been universally panned, though they look quite good when fed native UHD/4K content. As a result, Seiki worked with Marseilles Networks to build its Technicolor 4K-Certified upscaling chip into the U-Vision HDMI cable that sells for around $40! Just connect your 1080p source (say, your AVR's HDMI output) to the TV with this cable, and voila—the TV is now receiving "native" UHD/4K. Seiki also introduced an upscaling Blu-ray player with the Marseilles chip for $99 at CE Week last month.

Another factor is that native UHD/4K content is not gushing out of the studios, in part because many of the elements other than pixel resolution have yet to be standardized; see my coverage of a recent SMPTE webinar that addressed this problem. Those elements are not likely to be settled upon for at least two years, so whatever native UHD/4K content becomes available in the meantime will have the same colorimetry and dynamic range as good ol' HD. Thus, it's no surprise that upscaled HD is very close to native UHD—everything about them is identical except the native pixel resolution, and upscaling by a precise factor of two in each dimension is relatively easy to do well (Seiki TVs notwithstanding).

Many people ask me if they should buy a UHD/4K TV now, and my answer is usually, "No, wait for the standards to be finalized and for TVs and content to implement those standards." That is still my advice if you buy a new TV infrequently—say, every 5-10 years. If you buy a UHD/4K TV now, it probably won't be able to display the higher dynamic range and wider color gamut in the content that's coming a couple of years from now—and in a side-by-side comparison between today's UHD/4K content and that future content on a compatible display, the differences will NOT be subtle, I can assure you.

On the other hand, if you buy a new TV every couple of years, getting a UHD/4K model now might make sense. They tend to be premium models with top-notch performance, so if you have the dough, you'll get the best picture quality available today, especially with a high-quality upscaler, either in the TV or external. Yes, these sets are more expensive than comparably sized HDTVs, but prices are dropping fast.

Then there's self-generated content. One of the earliest benefits touted about 4K TV is the fact that you can display digital photos at their native resolution—or at least closer to it than HDTVs can. And 4K camcorders are becoming more affordable every day, so all you budding filmmakers can see your work at full resolution. However, the dynamic-range and colorimetry issues remain.

So what do you think? Is Ken right that 4K TV does not need native 4K content? Is it unwise to get a UHD/4K TV now, or do the benefits outweigh the transitional nature of today's models?

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Scott,

What do you think about the swappable box which comes with Samsungs high-end UHDTV's? Their claim is that as the technology changes/improves that replacing this box will have the UHDTV be the current state of the (their?) art. In your opinion is this just another gimmick to lure us in or is there some validity in the matter?
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post #1484 of 2263 Old 08-15-2014, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
After the exit of Plasma I have been taking every LCD review with a grain of salt ,Remember that this LCD is not longer in the game but it is still a reference LCD TV.
Sounds like you made up your mind to me.
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post #1485 of 2263 Old 08-15-2014, 09:19 AM
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4K Now ?

I work in broadcast engineering. We were told to get a 4K Samsung which was studied by 3 engineers before buying. We have to build 1 editing suite.So far nothing on the editing side is working as the manufactuer has said. We also have had to buy 4 different 4K cameras to be able to shoot in different settings times 6 crews. Some of the cameras want tons of light if inside. Some do well outside. We had probelms with HD1080i but nothing like this.
On to the Samsung 4K. We took a direct feed from a live show in the studio had the 65" 4K on a work bench and 5 ft. away a Sansung 55" LED back lit both with the same feed. The 4K showed make up and even a bumps under the make up,other details also.On the 55" make up blends and no bumbs seen,seemed a bit soft. Close ups are like as many say, looking through a window.Also noticed more color range,just a little.
I am a plasma lover myself. Its kind of funny we only use plasma to monitor what ends up going on air. And did not check against a plasma.

Real 4K is a monster.The amount of info. that would have to be feed to a house is huge. Local TV and cable services would have to start all over again.Don't think they can afford it. We are looking at Netflix as an option to sell content. Only specials with long self life are being shot in 4K.
A story that would take 2 hours at 1080 to render, took 8 hours at 4K.
If you must have the lastest and greatest get one. For me I'm looking for a 60" Plasma while they are on sale.
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post #1486 of 2263 Old 08-15-2014, 10:24 AM
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Broadcast industry perspective

There are more than enough consumer oriented articles in this thread. Here is a professional industry perspective.

http://www.nordahl.tv/

I am not endorsing this information but I do agree with most of what he says.

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Being redone - comming soon!

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post #1487 of 2263 Old 08-15-2014, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clarkjit View Post
I work in broadcast engineering. We were told to get a 4K Samsung which was studied by 3 engineers before buying. We have to build 1 editing suite.So far nothing on the editing side is working as the manufactuer has said. We also have had to buy 4 different 4K cameras to be able to shoot in different settings times 6 crews. Some of the cameras want tons of light if inside. Some do well outside. We had probelms with HD1080i but nothing like this.
On to the Samsung 4K. We took a direct feed from a live show in the studio had the 65" 4K on a work bench and 5 ft. away a Sansung 55" LED back lit both with the same feed. The 4K showed make up and even a bumps under the make up,other details also.On the 55" make up blends and no bumbs seen,seemed a bit soft. Close ups are like as many say, looking through a window.Also noticed more color range,just a little.
I am a plasma lover myself. Its kind of funny we only use plasma to monitor what ends up going on air. And did not check against a plasma.

Real 4K is a monster.The amount of info. that would have to be feed to a house is huge. Local TV and cable services would have to start all over again.Don't think they can afford it. We are looking at Netflix as an option to sell content. Only specials with long self life are being shot in 4K.
A story that would take 2 hours at 1080 to render, took 8 hours at 4K.
If you must have the lastest and greatest get one. For me I'm looking for a 60" Plasma while they are on sale.
Thanks for sharing. You sound like you have an awesome job. Fun.
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I have bought an LG55LA970W and feel like I have been abandoned by LG.There are no firmware updates,and it appears it won't support HDMI 2.0 in the UK.So I have spent £1800 on a TV that is already out of date and poorly supported.The 3D performance is great and pairing with an Oppo 103 on the the 4k x2k setting,PQ is great.Overall though,my advice is wait.
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post #1489 of 2263 Old 08-15-2014, 11:56 AM
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i was in a similar boat a few months ago. i had to decide between a 65" UHDTV or 75" HDTV.
I knew I wanted a Samsung and so my research began. In short, I chose the larger 75" screen in lieu of the 4K.
I'm glad I did. I wish I can get a 75" 4K but I couldn't justify the cost. I'm glad I went with the 75", it's OMG!!
I sit 10ft away and I can't imagine what a 4K would look like. I will be upgrading when 75" 4K prices drop in a few years as more content rolls out.
It's great being an early adopter and you're not really "into it" if you didn't buy the latest and greatest.
If you're concerned with ROI like me, then get the 75". There is a huge difference in the experience between watching a 65 and 75 inch TV.
Size does matter because 1080p is "good enough".
Now I have to decide between the 2015 Cayman GTS versus a decked out Lexus GS350. Two completely different cars. The Porsche is completely impractical but has the OMG factor and leaves me wondering if the Lexus is "good enough". Life sucks when you're not a billionaire and there's no peace on earth.

Sorry diverging and ranting.
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post #1490 of 2263 Old 08-15-2014, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
After the exit of Plasma I have been taking every LCD review with a grain of salt ,Remember that this LCD is not longer in the game but it is still a reference LCD TV.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrorange303 View Post
Sounds like you made up your mind to me.

They need to make more quality FALD LCD like the Sharp elite.


https://www.rtings.com/info/what-is-local-dimming












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post #1491 of 2263 Old 08-15-2014, 01:02 PM
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They need to make more quality FALD LCD like the Sharp elite,I think that the one that mark mentioned the UHD Samsung S8 is right at that level but I'm not 100% sure.




https://www.rtings.com/info/what-is-local-dimming
I guess sunday will bring more answers.
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post #1492 of 2263 Old 08-15-2014, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
They need to make more quality FALD LCD like the Sharp elite,I think that the one that mark mentioned the UHD Samsung S8 is right at that level but I'm not 100% sure.




https://www.rtings.com/info/what-is-local-dimming
Local dimming is awesome! I love my local dimming set-- It has over two million dimming zones!

But in all seriousness, they just need to get a fire under OLED production and keep plasma around for another year or two until prices come down!
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post #1493 of 2263 Old 08-15-2014, 03:44 PM
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If plasma is staying around it will say LG on the front. Still want it to stay around? Come to think of it, it seems that any OLED product is going to say LG on the front. Until they sell panels to other manufactures.
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post #1494 of 2263 Old 08-15-2014, 04:39 PM
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If plasma is staying around it will say LG on the front. Still want it to stay around? Come to think of it, it seems that any OLED product is going to say LG on the front. Until they sell panels to other manufactures.
Lg agrees with you.

“In the wake of plasma’s decline, it’s more important than ever to bring OLED to consumers who are looking for the highest level of contrast and colour performance,” said Dave Vanderwaal, head of marketing at LG Electronics USA. “We’re proud to start to bring this amazing technology into the mainstream for US consumers.”

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/55ec9300-201408143881.htm
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post #1495 of 2263 Old 08-15-2014, 04:53 PM
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LG certainly seems to be in the cat bird seat when it comes to OLED. Not sure about what's going on in the PRC but with the right patent rights LG could actually put a strangle hold on future OLED development. New printinhg methods may lead to OLED becoming so inexpensive to manufacture that profit margins will be unattractive to the name manufactures we are familiar with.
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post #1496 of 2263 Old 08-15-2014, 05:01 PM
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With the prices dropping rapidly on 4k displays I wonder what the actual cost difference there is in manufacturing a 4k panel vs a 2k panel. I'm guessing that once you get past the start up cost the end cost would be about the same.
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post #1497 of 2263 Old 08-15-2014, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by jacksonlui View Post
i was in a similar boat a few months ago. i had to decide between a 65" UHDTV or 75" HDTV.
I knew I wanted a Samsung and so my research began. In short, I chose the larger 75" screen in lieu of the 4K.
I'm glad I did. I wish I can get a 75" 4K but I couldn't justify the cost. I'm glad I went with the 75", it's OMG!!
I sit 10ft away and I can't imagine what a 4K would look like. I will be upgrading when 75" 4K prices drop in a few years as more content rolls out.
It's great being an early adopter and you're not really "into it" if you didn't buy the latest and greatest.
If you're concerned with ROI like me, then get the 75". There is a huge difference in the experience between watching a 65 and 75 inch TV.
Size does matter because 1080p is "good enough".
Now I have to decide between the 2015 Cayman GTS versus a decked out Lexus GS350. Two completely different cars. The Porsche is completely impractical but has the OMG factor and leaves me wondering if the Lexus is "good enough". Life sucks when you're not a billionaire and there's no peace on earth.

Sorry diverging and ranting.
I would have probably made the same choice going with the 75" at this particular time. I looked at some TV's at the local Best Buy just today and saw a number of 4K sets again, as well as some 70" and 80" sets. I have to agree that the WOW factor and overall viewing benefit was much bigger in the larger screen sizes than in the 4K detail. I once again realized how little of a difference 4K really makes compared to 1080p. Even at those shorter distances of say 6 feet (by the way, this was the distance at which they placed the seats in front of a 65" Samsung curved 4K demo TV), where you can see those finer details better, and it still didn't look "tremendously" different, let alone when I stepped away a few more feet. Some fine detail, sure (if the right content is played that shows a lot of fine detail and in 4K), but otherwise not that much of a "WOW, huge difference" effect. After a while of watching and immersing into the content, may as well be a 1080p set - one is likely to forget it's a 4K and not 1080p TV - just isn't that hugely different. But looking at an 80" screen on the other hand, WOW, really blows one away. You definitely will always feel that much size difference, compared to rather forgetting there are some finer pixels in the picture that are super tiny... I know a lot of 4K supporters will argue I am wrong, but sorry guys, 4K is neat, but just doesn't knock one's socks off, as it just isn't that huge of a deal - just looked at it in comparison today, so sharing fresh impressions.

Dude, you are kidding on comparing a Porsche to a Lexus??? Lexus cars will deteriorate faster and just aren't - well - European cars... The're ok, but just not at the same quality level. Porsche is definitely way to go. I know people with Lexus cars, and their paint, interior materials, let alone styling and such, just aren't at the level of European cars, such as Porsche. My BMW's are holding up much better than any Lexus for example. Anyway, my apologies for sidetracking as well, just had to comment on that one, lol Subject for a different forum...
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post #1498 of 2263 Old 08-15-2014, 10:02 PM
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LG certainly seems to be in the cat bird seat when it comes to OLED. Not sure about what's going on in the PRC but with the right patent rights LG could actually put a strangle hold on future OLED development. New printinhg methods may lead to OLED becoming so inexpensive to manufacture that profit margins will be unattractive to the name manufactures we are familiar with.
I've personally just always been very unimpressed with LG TV's. Calibrated one (LCD) for a friend, and it was nothing but a pain in the neck - worst interface ever and totally unimpressive picture quality... If they do the same with their OLED's, I think other manufacturers will still have a chance to simply sell better designed and overall better performing OLED sets, even if at higher prices. For better quality, design, and performance, people pay more money, just like price differences exist today withing LCD lineups... Just my 2-cents-worth...
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post #1499 of 2263 Old 08-15-2014, 11:21 PM
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The reviews I've read on the LG OLED's have been very good. So far they kind of deserve a little credit for not bailing on plasma YET. I've never been a LG fan but they seem to have hit a home run with OLED. Maybe we should buy their stock.
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post #1500 of 2263 Old 08-16-2014, 12:57 AM
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Local dimming is awesome! I love my local dimming set-- It has over two million dimming zones!

But in all seriousness, they just need to get a fire under OLED production and keep plasma around for another year or two until prices come down!
To me the local dimming story is sort of an ironic example of how the industry has gone (and taken consumers) toward basically worse and not better technology... Don't get me wrong, local dimming is definitely a great and important feature on an LCD. Now imagine if someone told you "hey, there is this technology where you don't even need any local dimming to "mask" the blurs and clouding, etc. Every pixel emits it's own light, black levels are superb, colors are rich, screen uniformity is perfect as well as side viewing angles" - sounds like that something we should be jumping on, right? Oh wait, we already have that, it's called plasma, yet here we are abandoning it in favor of LCD's with all their basic flaws... Of course there is OLED to maybe look forward to, but it still carries a lot of uncertainty... Instead, we have been given 4K - whoopty doo...
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