UHD/4K Quandary: To Buy or Not to Buy - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 1818 Old 07-22-2014, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by westa6969 View Post
If you've read Marks feedback and articles over many months here it should be clear that while he possesses a certain AV expertise to be respected he has a leaning towards the technology as doing it on the CHEAP targeted at hobbyists on a budget versus early adopters that aren't necessarily simply surviving within budget perspectives - we got's money and we don't need saving like we're at a Vegas casino on our last dollar.

Being 63 and survived heart attacks , quad bypass and live with tech implanted in my chest some of us may not have a next generation timeline.

I lived through this evolution I've repeatedly witnessed this argument of when to adopt. Man, if it were up to these guys we'd still be stuck in the sixties.

If your young in great health and must live within a budget and it's not a hobby then Yes stay with the budget quality 1080P panel that's more affordable than ever, my original 23" Sony LCD nearly 12 years ago cost $1700 and today we can buy a 70" panel for that. My kids are grown and gone.

His leanings often seem so far leaning to budget means that his opinion is slanted towards budget - best bang for buck but not necessarily BEST.

Come on Mark can you truly say you can view a 4K panel at it's best (money differential aside) and 1080P panel with 4K from 8' and not see a dramatic difference? I've stood that 8' viewing 4K at it's best and it dwarfed the 1080P panel making it appear dull and boring.

If your brain involuntarily makes your mouth go WoW from 4K and the 1080P makes one Yawn then your ISF measuring instruments don't mean JACK as they cannot illicit WoW's!

4K involuntary WoW trumps as that doesn't reside in your toolbox as it resides in one's eyes/mind and no ones yardstick.

Makes it seem dull and boring? I bit of hyperbole no? Frankly, as much as I enjoy my Kuro, my HT and 2 channel systems, if I had serious health issues, the last thing I would do is spent tons of cash on a new display. There are better things I can think of doing with my limited time and money. As a matter of fact, while I do have a budget (set by spousal not money factors) presently, I do not see the need to buy the next new thing just as it comes out. For one, it probably has bugs, will be better and cheaper in a year or 2. I bought the 141 when they made their announcement at an industry accomodation (would never spend $7k on a TV even though I could afford to). My 2 channel stuff is 20 years old and holds up incredibly well. Even now, I would rather see the world then spend on HT stuff. But hey, that is just me. Being on a budget, balancing one's needs does not mean that you are doing it on the cheap. In fact, you can get incredible results with DIY and buying used gear. There will always be people who discard great stuff so they can have the latest thing, even though it is in reality, no better (or even worse) that what they already have. If anyone wants to sell me a 50" Kuro, I would be glad to take it!
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post #182 of 1818 Old 07-22-2014, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Mrorange303 View Post
YouTube has tons. Yes 4k like netflix.
Right. But that misses my point. Yes you'll have stuff like that in 4K, but it will just be documentaries, sports and non VFX dramas; but I am skeptical we will ever see a major movie release in native 4K for a long time to come, which is what I care a lot about.

Even if filmed in 4K stock the studio will downscale to 2K to do the CGI/VFX, then upscale back to 4K (like Sony does currently and markets it as mastered 4k, e.g., Spiderman).

We won't see true native 4K with native 4K CGI/VFX for a long time to come in a live action movie w/CGI in any reasonably major market release. It is just too expensive to do that post production work in 4K and keep the film truly 4K end to end.

So until then we're just getting an upscaling of 2K. Maybe you'll get one or two innovators with massive budgets like Cameron or a one-off like Jackson testing 48fps on the Hobbit, but that is it.

And that is major content we will not see for a long time to come.
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post #183 of 1818 Old 07-22-2014, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by S_rangeBrew View Post
Because they are dirt cheap. You might be rich, but most people are not. 50" 1080P sets can be had for under 500 dollars these days and are MORE than good enough for 99% of the users out there.



Uh, no. I know a lot of people who still use and enjoy the 720p plasmas and LCDs they bought years ago. And why wouldn't they? At standard viewing distances 1080p is almost worthless. 4K is nothing but a gimmick for most users.




Show me a 50" 4k set for $500 bucks and I'll tell all my friends. No, wait, I won't because it would just be a waste of money for them or at most an incremental upgrade to their 720p sets.

I am one myself. I have a 50 inch Panny PHD7UY which is a 768p panel in the family room. I bought it in November 2004 and had it calibrated and it still looks great, better at night than in the middle of the day but still more than watchable. For critical viewing I use the Kuro 141 in the HT room, but I don't feel that I am watching an inferior image.
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post #184 of 1818 Old 07-22-2014, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
Scott thanks for this article,this article like many others on the web prove that I wasn't wrong about buying a VT60 this year.
I bought one in December, and have been following the samsung, and sony 4k threads, and I have to say that every time I turn on the vt60 I ask myself why I was considering moving to 4k. I think that I mine as well wait to see what improvements come next year, and for some of the sets we are still waiting for to be released this year. The pq of the vt60 is plenty good enough, and there's no real reason not to wait for the tech to improve a bit.
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post #185 of 1818 Old 07-22-2014, 11:16 AM
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Hi all. I see most here are against purchasing a UHD tv at this time and instead "saving" your money and purchasing a 1080p plasma. I understand your arguments and don't disagree, but I feel that most here are under the impression that plasma is cheaper than UHD and you will be saving money.

I am in the market to purchase something right now. I have no previous experience with reference plasmas or lcd as I am replacing a CRT RPTV . But from my research, I am seeing that it is cheaper at this point in time to buy a UHD such as a Sony or the LGub9500 which are available for closer to $2300 if you look hard enough, vs the plasma that everybody here is comparing it to the F8500 which is approx $3000.

So when we take the cost into consideration, would those of you who are against UHD actually pay more for the plasma? Do you still feel that strongly that it would be worth a higher price tag? The prices keep coming down on the UHD tvs, at what point does it make sense to take the plunge on UHD?
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post #186 of 1818 Old 07-22-2014, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by pgrenier16 View Post
Hi all. I see most here are against purchasing a UHD tv at this time and instead "saving" your money and purchasing a 1080p plasma. I understand your arguments and don't disagree, but I feel that most here are under the impression that plasma is cheaper than UHD and you will be saving money.

I am in the market to purchase something right now. I have no previous experience with reference plasmas or lcd as I am replacing a CRT RPTV . But from my research, I am seeing that it is cheaper at this point in time to buy a UHD such as a Sony or the LGub9500 which are available for closer to $2300 if you look hard enough, vs the plasma that everybody here is comparing it to the F8500 which is approx $3000.

So when we take the cost into consideration, would those of you who are against UHD actually pay more for the plasma? Do you still feel that strongly that it would be worth a higher price tag? The prices keep coming down on the UHD tvs, at what point does it make sense to take the plunge on UHD?
It's context... The F8500 looks better than LCD-based UHDTV when displaying 1080p content in a darkened room. Without a significant source of UHD content, a UHDTV does not earn its keep in terms of value.

However, a UHDTV is a much better choice than a plasma at those higher price points, if the TV is going to be used in a bright room, or as a computer monitor, or if you live in the mountains.

Now it's time to pimp my wife's opinion. Every time she looks at a movie playing on the F8500 and AX800U side-by-side, she shakes her head and says "that's a shame about that 4K TV." That's because with 1080p movies, the overall PQ on the F8500 is truly impressive, and it just plain looks better than the AX800U. It takes UHD content for the AX800U to compete in the "wow" department—not upscaled 1080p.

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post #187 of 1818 Old 07-22-2014, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by JWhip View Post
I am one myself. I have a 50 inch Panny PHD7UY which is a 768p panel in the family room. I bought it in November 2004 and had it calibrated and it still looks great, better at night than in the middle of the day but still more than watchable. For critical viewing I use the Kuro 141 in the HT room, but I don't feel that I am watching an inferior image.
Throw Transformers on it. My god, that film completely blows me away for Plasma. More so the road through the rocks after they shrink the cube. Seeing all the chrome, the lovely orange/sandy canyons. The colouring in the film makes me melt under a calibrated display in the dark.

I can't even imagine what it would be like with 10/12bit and everything is finalised for 4k+.

Imagine watching films and there's not a flaw in picture quality.
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post #188 of 1818 Old 07-22-2014, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Every time she looks (wife) at a movie playing on the F8500 and AX800U side-by-side, she shakes her head and says "that's a shame about that 4K TV." That's because with 1080p movies, the overall PQ on the F8500 is truly impressive, and it just plain looks better than the AX800U. It takes UHD content for the AX800U to compete in the "wow" department—not upscaled 1080p.
It is a shame, a sad goddamn shame.
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post #189 of 1818 Old 07-22-2014, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by pgrenier16 View Post
Hi all. I see most here are against purchasing a UHD tv at this time and instead "saving" your money and purchasing a 1080p plasma. I understand your arguments and don't disagree, but I feel that most here are under the impression that plasma is cheaper than UHD and you will be saving money.

I am in the market to purchase something right now. I have no previous experience with reference plasmas or lcd as I am replacing a CRT RPTV . But from my research, I am seeing that it is cheaper at this point in time to buy a UHD such as a Sony or the LGub9500 which are available for closer to $2300 if you look hard enough, vs the plasma that everybody here is comparing it to the F8500 which is approx $3000.

So when we take the cost into consideration, would those of you who are against UHD actually pay more for the plasma? Do you still feel that strongly that it would be worth a higher price tag? The prices keep coming down on the UHD tvs, at what point does it make sense to take the plunge on UHD?
In a word: yes.

But read Mark's (imagic's) posts here as he gives a good rundown of the strengths of each display type. The F8500 might not be a good choice for you-- it isn't for many people, for example westa. But the real mistake is to assume just because a set is 4k that it is automatically better than a competing 1080p display. This is the fallacy that a lot of our members here are falling into.

I don't shop with friends anymore but if I were purchasing a set right now and I wanted LCD I would be looking for the set that gave me the most uniform picture with deep blacks, good color saturation, solid motion handling and low lag-- resolution wouldn't be a big factor in my decision. In fact I recently looked at two Sony models and the 1080p set gave me more of what I was looking for than the more expensive 4k set! 4k is a resolution, not a certification of quality and it's one of the factors (only one) you should weigh when making your decision.
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post #190 of 1818 Old 07-22-2014, 12:44 PM
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Not reading the whole thread, but where is it set in stone that "dynamic-range and colorimetry issues" will even be addressed in 4K standards? If Blu-ray 4K doesn't address them, what widespread content will?

They are going to need something to sell 8K for, since few will have the screen sizes that demand it.

In my particular case, the 4K was icing on the cake for a projector that met my requirements in practically every other department vs any 1080p projector available 2 years ago or now (of course I'm referring to the 1000ES).
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post #191 of 1818 Old 07-22-2014, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
The CEA has sprung into action and has developed a voluntary to manufacturers standard to ensure that what you buy is a UHD set with the CEA seal of approval (to come). The set must at a minimum do 3840 x 2160, must scale 1920 x 1080 to 3840 x 2160, must have an aspect ratio of 1.78 or higher, do a color space at least as wide as BT709 at 3840 x 2160, do at least 8 bit, and have at least one HDMI input that will accept 3840 x 2160 at 24, 30 and 60 fps and is protected by HDCP 2.2 or its equivalent. Nothing else matters to get the seal of approval. Designed to tell consumer what is real UHD at this point and yet allow the industry to do more. No mention of other things. I guess those are not important to get real UHD, But at least they have forced all UHD manufacturers to go to a 3840 x 2160 at 60 input and to be able to handle HVEC.accept content protected by HDCP 2.2 or its equivalent.
If this is true, not much for color. The above already pushes HDMI 2.0 bandwith close to its limits.

I would like to see better color space/chroma in the spec too.
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post #192 of 1818 Old 07-22-2014, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Mrorange303 View Post
.....
I have never liked plasma televisions. Living in Colorado we have a short life span with plasmas here. Low oxygen doesnt help the tech......
Huh?

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post #193 of 1818 Old 07-22-2014, 01:21 PM
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I wouldn't buy a UHD/4K TV before (at least) one major streaming/download service starts offering mainstream movies—from multiple studios—in UHD. There's nowhere near enough UHD/4K content out there at the moment. All the hype about upscaling is just that—hype. It's just like 3D used to be; there's nothing to watch, but you get the feature anyway if you decide to spend the big bucks on a top-of-the-line TV. Already, the prices of UHD/4K TVs are coming down as fast as 3D HDTV prices did.
Between a lack of 4k sources and untested HDMI 2.0/HDCP 2.2 operation, buying a UHD is only for bragging rights currently.

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post #194 of 1818 Old 07-22-2014, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post
Huh?
http://www.cnet.com/news/plasma-tv-altitude-how-high-can-they-go/

Why is this so new to people. Even people in Colorado? Didnt you wonder why your plasma buzzes so loud and begins to degrade after about 5 years in Colorado?

There is a reason. Im just shocked at how this is new.

I guess it would only matter to us effected.
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post #195 of 1818 Old 07-22-2014, 02:44 PM
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It's a shame the CEA did not seek to make the standards mandatory. All we will end up with is a huge mess similar to the HDMI/CEC and the HDMI/ARC fiascos.
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post #196 of 1818 Old 07-22-2014, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Mrorange303 View Post
http://www.cnet.com/news/plasma-tv-altitude-how-high-can-they-go/

Why is this so new to people. Even people in Colorado? Didnt you wonder why your plasma buzzes so loud and begins to degrade after about 5 years in Colorado?

There is a reason. Im just shocked at how this is new.

I guess it would only matter to us effected.
Well as a degreed EE and with 30 years of broadcast engineering experience, I want to see a little more than some CNET article as proof there is a problem. Like some accredited measurements.

Do neon lamps require any special treatment in Colorado? How about CRTs back in the day? hell, what about common fluorescent lamps?

And the buzz in a Plasma is mostly from the inductors in the power supply. As the image gets brighter, more current is drawn. And as the frame refresh rate is 60hz, the current is drawn at a 60hz rate hence the buzz.

"On the other hand, none of the plasma manufacturers call out this issue, and since they're the ones with the most to lose if there were lifespan, performance, or other problems at high altitudes, you'd think they would. Even if just to cover their butts."

And it seems the manufactures feel this is junk science as well!

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post #197 of 1818 Old 07-22-2014, 03:48 PM
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As I've said in other post, manufactures should start improving UHD now, not later. Sure Rec.2020 might be too much for current hardware but at the very least make your 2015 flagships have:

1. Dolby Vision compatibility (includes both HDR and Wider color)

2. 10 bit panels

3. True full array local dimming (the edge lot dimming has gotten better but it can never replace the real deal)

These improvements would help boost UHD TVs to go beyond just higher resolution and make them more "future proof" for when wider color and HDR become standard.

We also need the 4K Blu-Ray standard set in stone. Netflix 4K is great but there are a large majority of people who don't have a fast enough connection in their area to handle it. 4K Bluray will give UHD owners content to watch and should give UHD TVs a boost in sales.

Content creators already have the equipment needed to create great UHD content, but they need a medium to deliver it. For example, there is already a UHD version of Gravity with HDR that is ready to go, but the creators need something to put it on and more HDR TVs on the market.
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post #198 of 1818 Old 07-22-2014, 04:12 PM
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I guess I come from a different point of view.

I have a 50" Seiki 3840x2180 which I use as a monitor for my computer. I find that this configuration provides many benefits and value.

First, I find the resolution difference to be huge vs 1080p depending on the source material. Some of the 4k samples from Netflix looks almost no different than 1080p material. But I have seen a lot of source material which looks fantastic in 4k. Youtube has had 4k for some time now. Even with streaming at about 25 Mbps on Youtube I see a great improvement vs 1080p in many videos. I have recently purchased a 4k camcorder, the Sony AX100, which I use to document my interests and activities (youtube gallery: http://gg.gg/ax100). This camera and other recent 4k cameras provide excellent video quality.

Second this Seiki is available for under $600. This provides a great entry into 4k without the extreme cost of many of the higher end 4k TVs. I know that there are issues such as poor contrast and 30p limitation but I can live with this as an early adopter. There are times when I am lazy and watch movies on this monitor and it is ok but not great. Normally I watch movies on my 60" Pioneer Kuro. In fact I liked the 50" Seiki so much that I purchased the 39" 4k Seiki which is $339 on Amazon Prime as a monitor for my daughter's computer.

The last benefit is that I sit about 4 ft from the screen when using it as a monitor and about 6 ft when I am watching videos. This allows me to use the computer without reading glasses!!!
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post #199 of 1818 Old 07-22-2014, 05:41 PM
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They stopped making the FALD displays after a lawsuit by Sharp.
No they didn't. The patents Sharp sued them over had nothing to do with backlights or local dimming. Besides, Samsung currently makes a FALD set.
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post #200 of 1818 Old 07-22-2014, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post
Well as a degreed EE and with 30 years of broadcast engineering experience, I want to see a little more than some CNET article as proof there is a problem. Like some accredited measurements.

Do neon lamps require any special treatment in Colorado? How about CRTs back in the day? hell, what about common fluorescent lamps?

And the buzz in a Plasma is mostly from the inductors in the power supply. As the image gets brighter, more current is drawn. And as the frame refresh rate is 60hz, the current is drawn at a 60hz rate hence the buzz.

"On the other hand, none of the plasma manufacturers call out this issue, and since they're the ones with the most to lose if there were lifespan, performance, or other problems at high altitudes, you'd think they would. Even if just to cover their butts."

And it seems the manufactures feel this is junk science as well!
I have provided evidence. I GOOGLED it and just gave you the first article. Theres plenty.

Now I ask humbly that you provide evidence im wrong.

Manufacturers are worried about profit. Of course to them nothing is wrong. Theyre word is not as good as my real life expiriences and the numerous articles on the subject.

Sorry I just dont beleive the manufacturers care to replace these sets and they may be partial to that view.

Please use that expirience and great education you touted and provide some proof its wring. Thanks good sir.
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post #201 of 1818 Old 07-22-2014, 06:36 PM
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Maybe they could provide the best possible SQ and 1080P PQ over a 18gbps cable (2.0 or not) and call it even.
I'll take one please.

Edit: possible

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post #202 of 1818 Old 07-22-2014, 07:02 PM
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No they didn't. The patents Sharp sued them over had nothing to do with backlights or local dimming. Besides, Samsung currently makes a FALD set.
That was simply what was explained to me by the Samsung rep in 2008/2009? He said that do to patent infringement suit involving backlight technology,viewing angles,response time and advertised contrast they had decided against full array. Whether this is true is another story,but up until the 85" models last year and some this year they haven't produced many since the B8500. I think they went kicking and screaming with those models,since none were convinced there could be uniformity on a screen that size without full array.
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post #203 of 1818 Old 07-22-2014, 07:05 PM
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Anyway how about them 4k TV's?
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post #204 of 1818 Old 07-22-2014, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Mrorange303 View Post
I have provided evidence. I GOOGLED it and just gave you the first article. Theres plenty.

Now I ask humbly that you provide evidence im wrong.
No, you showed me an article written by a non-engineer technologist reviewer in a consumer AV magazine. There is not one reference to any certified industry expert to support his claims.

Sorry, that's hardly credible in professional circles.

You are making the claim Plasma's are degraded at the "high" altitudes found in Colorado. I am simply asking for credible proof. So the burden of evidence is on you.
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post #205 of 1818 Old 07-22-2014, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post
No, you showed me an article written by a non-engineer technologist reviewer in a consumer AV magazine. There is not one reference to any certified industry expert to support his claims.

Sorry, that's hardly credible in professional circles.

You are making the claim Plasma's are degraded at the "high" altitudes found in Colorado. I am simply asking for credible proof. So the burden of evidence is on you.
You know whats faster a link.
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post #206 of 1818 Old 07-22-2014, 07:34 PM
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Anyway how about them 4k TV's?
So good. So damn good.
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post #207 of 1818 Old 07-22-2014, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post
No, you showed me an article written by a non-engineer technologist reviewer in a consumer AV magazine. There is not one reference to any certified industry expert to support his claims.

Sorry, that's hardly credible in professional circles.

You are making the claim Plasma's are degraded at the "high" altitudes found in Colorado. I am simply asking for credible proof. So the burden of evidence is on you.
Finally home. Took a min. Found these. Hope you take a min too with your evidence. Please dont talk down to me as you have no knowledge of me. I know of your impressive resume. You've made that clear.

Please return the favor and provide your links. I need evidence people can follow like I provided for you. Thanks.

http://m.dummies.com/how-to/content/hdtv-insights-knowing-why-altitude-can-matter-with.html

http://*******************.com/plasmatv/plasmatv-altitude.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/01/technology/thwarted-at-high-altitudes-plasma-tv-tries-to-adapt.html

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/167-plasma-flat-panel-displays/846665-plasma-high-elevation.html

http://plasmatv.lifetips.com//cat/61628/pros-and-cons-of-a-plasma-tv/index.html

Last edited by Mrorange303; 07-22-2014 at 08:39 PM.
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post #208 of 1818 Old 07-22-2014, 09:00 PM
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Now I want to add some models behave better than others in Colorado with plasma technology. All plasmas still till this day suffer issues in Colorado. It may take 5 years aftrr you buy it. But eventually the altitude will get it.

All I said was for me in Colorado plasmas over 4k doesnt make sense.

The members who have said im wrong clearly have had an entire day to provide one link saying im wrong.

That being said I think by not having a top performing 4k set you cheat your self.

Those are sony and samaung.

Thats it. If you went with something else no wonder you dont see a difference. Processor technology matters. Upscaling technology matters.

4k upscailing bluray players look worse when they send a native 4k signal to a 4k set.

Well a samsung set. The samsung wont upscale a native signal. Or it will take a signal it reads as being upscale and downscale it to 1080p and back up to 4k.

So if you send a native 1080p signal to the set in all its glory the set will upscale that picture to a much cleaner 4k image.

Are these things even being considered.

Perhaps the issue here is the lack of quality sets to compare.

Because I can 100 percent promise you my movies all look better than I have ever seen.

There are plenty former Kuro owners in the HU9000 and hu8550 owners forums. As well as the x900a and x900b forums who will tell you 4k is more immersive. The 3d is better. The Sony members nay be more bitter but hey listen.

If your really wanting to know go ask the owners who are not here to discuss this topic.

There are numerous owners of plasmas. Ask how they feel?
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post #209 of 1818 Old 07-22-2014, 09:18 PM
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Anyway how about them 4k TV's?
1k TV's are all I am interested in, that's why I am interested in the Vizio P series

The films of De Sica, of Welles, of Michael Powell and Emeric Pressburger made little money and endure as spiritual delights.
--David Mamet
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post #210 of 1818 Old 07-22-2014, 09:33 PM
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1k TV's are all I am interested in, that's why I am interested in the Vizio P series
Good one. Pun received.
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