UHD/4K Quandary: To Buy or Not to Buy - Page 8 - AVS Forum
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post #211 of 1679 Old 07-22-2014, 08:43 PM
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Cheap 4K used as PC Monitor

I've got a bunch of TV sets, multiple Plasmas including a couple of the legendary Kuro Plasmas.
I've even got a couple of classic HD CRTs still in play.


I didn't like the price yet of the 4K sets several months ago and even with them dropping rapidly I can see them getting bigger, better and cheaper over the next year so couldn't jump in.


The ultra cheap Chinese sets though like the Seiki SE50UY04 changed my mind and I'm really enjoying it at the price.


1) As a super sized PC monitor the 50" I'm on right now works great. I sit very close to it positioned in my bedroom and it's the 1st TV I've had that actually looks like a PC monitor even on Text.


2) I have the UpScaling Seiki cable and a PS4 connected. I've watched several blu-rays at 4K and because I'm sitting only a few feet from the screen (in bed) I can really see all the detail. The resolution difference is VERY noticeable used this way and it's quite the experience.


Quality varies quite a bit from blu-ray to blu-ray but when for instance I played the 4k mastered Total Recall and forgot to set it to 24 Hertz refresh, I could tell visually quite clearly that it was running at 1080p and not 4K. Switching back to 4K was visual force.


4K video content and images on PC also provide some fun.
At the price of this set I have to say it's well worth it to enjoy a taste of 4K right now.


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post #212 of 1679 Old 07-22-2014, 11:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
The gas (which is not oxygen) in a plasma panel is sealed in the glass. A plasma TV does not require oxygen in the atmosphere to operate. The specific mechanism that causes problems for plasma at high altitude relates to atmospheric pressure—the glass panel expands due to the pressure differential. That makes it a little bit harder to energize the phosphors. As with other areas of performance (energy efficiency, resistance to IR) plasma got better at handling high altitudes over the years.

Also... and this is just for trivia's sake... Wyoming has the highest average elevation of any state, not Colorado.
"Ideally, the pressure these gases are under should match the pressure of the gases (N2 and O2, mostly) outside the walls of those glass envelopes. "

http://*******************.com/plasmatv/plasmatv-altitude.html

http://www.city-data.com/top13.html

Look to see why colorado may cause issues and oxygen plays a part. Elevation plays a part on the oxygen which is part of the system. Sorry. Its not big but is a change to account for. Its something the tv will have to do.

Is this not a consideration in realty to potential 4k buyers in Colorado?

Seems legit for a concern to me.

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post #213 of 1679 Old 07-22-2014, 11:48 PM
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Not reading the whole thread, but where is it set in stone that "dynamic-range and colorimetry issues" will even be addressed in 4K standards? If Blu-ray 4K doesn't address them, what widespread content will?
It will address them, but the problem is that we're in a state of flux. Everybody's using Rec709/BT1886 today, but the trend is going to be towards Rec2020 for a wider gamut. The joke in the business, though is that "it's called Rec2020 because the standard won't really work until the year 2020."

The problem I see is that all the current 1st-generation 4K sets are going to have the same problem the 1st-generation HD sets had -- mainly in that they'll fall by the wayside as new standards get developed. Guaranteed, the first 4K sets won't do HDR, Rec2020, 60P, and all that other stuff. Do we really need that? Maybe not. But it is sobering to reflect how fast these displays become obsolete.

The good news is that displays are getting cheaper. The bad is that there are people convinced they can get a decent 4K set for $500, which is just not true. I'm not even convinced those $500 Seikis can calibrate. I saw one over the weekend and was just appalled.
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post #214 of 1679 Old 07-23-2014, 12:03 AM
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Originally Posted by James Jimmy View Post
I guess I come from a different point of view.

I have a 50" Seiki 3840x2180 which I use as a monitor for my computer. I find that this configuration provides many benefits and value.

First, I find the resolution difference to be huge vs 1080p depending on the source material. Some of the 4k samples from Netflix looks almost no different than 1080p material. But I have seen a lot of source material which looks fantastic in 4k. Youtube has had 4k for some time now. Even with streaming at about 25 Mbps on Youtube I see a great improvement vs 1080p in many videos. I have recently purchased a 4k camcorder, the Sony AX100, which I use to document my interests and activities (youtube gallery: http://gg.gg/ax100). This camera and other recent 4k cameras provide excellent video quality.

Second this Seiki is available for under $600. This provides a great entry into 4k without the extreme cost of many of the higher end 4k TVs. I know that there are issues such as poor contrast and 30p limitation but I can live with this as an early adopter. There are times when I am lazy and watch movies on this monitor and it is ok but not great. Normally I watch movies on my 60" Pioneer Kuro. In fact I liked the 50" Seiki so much that I purchased the 39" 4k Seiki which is $339 on Amazon Prime as a monitor for my daughter's computer.

The last benefit is that I sit about 4 ft from the screen when using it as a monitor and about 6 ft when I am watching videos. This allows me to use the computer without reading glasses!!!
All great points for 4k ignored yet again. This thread may have been a way to lure early 4k adopters to a stoning.
No matter what good points are made on 4ks behalf they are just ignored. Seems like a less than logical debate is goins ons here.
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post #215 of 1679 Old 07-23-2014, 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Mrorange303 View Post
Finally home. Took a min. Found these. Hope you take a min too with your evidence. Please dont talk down to me as you have no knowledge of me. I know of your impressive resume. You've made that clear.

Please return the favor and provide your links. I need evidence people can follow like I provided for you. Thanks.

http://m.dummies.com/how-to/content/...tter-with.html

http://*******************.com/plasm...-altitude.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/01/te...-to-adapt.html

Plasma at high elevation?

http://plasmatv.lifetips.com//cat/61...-tv/index.html
I still don't see a single quote from a Plasma manufacture or a study from an accredited institution of this problem. I can see theoretically how this could be a problem but I would like to see some hard research data and less home AV journalist opinions.

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post #216 of 1679 Old 07-23-2014, 12:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post
I still don't see a single quote from a Plasma manufacture or a study from an accredited institution of this problem..
More words? No link still? I gave 5. I need 1.

Come on buddy. This is getting really redundant.

Or just face the fact that maybe a person buying a plasma in colorado may have to take this into account and move on.

Clearly I was not lying to you. Does 4k have this issue in my state? No. So its just something to consider for buyers in colorado.

I dont see why you guys cant find one article to support yourselves. You have 30 years broadcasting expirience. Don't tell me sources. 7k post. I mean you are truly a legend in these threads I can only imagine.

So please dont say im wrong when I provided evidence. That should mean something to you.

And me asking for just 1 source. Should mean something to you as well. Its not crazy its just not normal so you were not familiar with it. I get it. But come on man. Really?
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post #217 of 1679 Old 07-23-2014, 12:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Mrorange303 View Post
Finally home. Took a min. Found these. Hope you take a min too with your evidence. Please dont talk down to me as you have no knowledge of me. I know of your impressive resume. You've made that clear.

Please return the favor and provide your links. I need evidence people can follow like I provided for you. Thanks.

http://m.dummies.com/how-to/content/...tter-with.html

http://*******************.com/plasm...-altitude.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/01/te...-to-adapt.html

Plasma at high elevation?

http://plasmatv.lifetips.com//cat/61...-tv/index.html
I didn't realize that there was this issue. I planning to move up to 7700 ft elevation in a few years. I hope my plasma survives the change.
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post #218 of 1679 Old 07-23-2014, 01:05 AM
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I didn't realize that there was this issue. I planning to move up to 7700 ft elevation in a few years. I hope my plasma survives the change.
Can't say. But if you just happen to be In the market soon it's nice info to have right? If you were choosing between a 4k and new plasma it's just nice info to know. So you can make a full decision. From all aspects.
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post #219 of 1679 Old 07-23-2014, 01:30 AM
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By that time you will be replacing your 4k TV a couple of time. I promise you that.



You keep with the gimmick marketing flow.I'll follow the most respectable and honest reviewers, calibrators and experts.
agreed, it's going to be a while before a sub $4k TV can beat your panny in pq and size.


and I find it funny to argue buying a UHD tv today helps you future proof. I bought an early HDTV, it didn't have hdmi inputs and only one DVI. I certainly didn't feel futureproofed even though it was another 10yrs before we've seen UHD seriously hit the market(this year). there's just too much up in the air still regarding UHD. is hdmi2.0 going to be enough? will we get 10bit, 12bit? how about 4:4:4? we could see higher frame rates too. it just doesn't seem like a good idea to buy a UHD display unless you have use for one right now. it's pretty unlikely anything you buy today is going to be relevant in 3yrs anyway. at least with our plasmas, we'll still have the picture quality, and enough money in the bank account to buy a new tv whenever we feel it's time

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post #220 of 1679 Old 07-23-2014, 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
In a word: yes.

But read Mark's (imagic's) posts here as he gives a good rundown of the strengths of each display type. The F8500 might not be a good choice for you-- it isn't for many people, for example westa. But the real mistake is to assume just because a set is 4k that it is automatically better than a competing 1080p display. This is the fallacy that a lot of our members here are falling into.

I don't shop with friends anymore but if I were purchasing a set right now and I wanted LCD I would be looking for the set that gave me the most uniform picture with deep blacks, good color saturation, solid motion handling and low lag-- resolution wouldn't be a big factor in my decision. In fact I recently looked at two Sony models and the 1080p set gave me more of what I was looking for than the more expensive 4k set! 4k is a resolution, not a certification of quality and it's one of the factors (only one) you should weigh when making your decision.
Mark is comparing one of the lesser 4k sets. The reviews for the Panasonic are not favorable. They are a 2nd tier 4k set that can't compare to the samsung or sony.

No wonder and he still sees some advantages.
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post #221 of 1679 Old 07-23-2014, 06:32 AM
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Mark is comparing one of the lesser 4k sets. The reviews for the Panasonic are not favorable. They are a 2nd tier 4k set that can't compare to the samsung or sony.

No wonder and he still sees some advantages.
I've seen all those TVs multiple times, what makes you say the Panasonic is inferior?

Panasonic AX802 is Best 4K TV; ZT Plasma Pips LG OLED - hdtvtest

And look at reviewed.com... the Panny has the second highest score in that list.



The real problem is the 4K TV is sitting next to this guy (64-inch in my case)...

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post #222 of 1679 Old 07-23-2014, 06:58 AM
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Deja Vu? Going back in time too the 720p vs 1080p debate both were 60 hz
Now that 4k can display 60hz I would buy one if my current TV broke,or I suddenly came into a lot of money.
Samsung upgradable TV!
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post #223 of 1679 Old 07-23-2014, 07:07 AM
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Display port can do 4k at 60 fps without supsampling since December 2009. there are other reasons for 4k right now. they simply need something new to sell the consumer.
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post #224 of 1679 Old 07-23-2014, 07:12 AM
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Deja Vu? Going back in time too the 720p vs 1080p debate both were 60 hz
Now that 4k can display 60hz I would buy one if my current TV broke,or I suddenly came into a lot of money.
Samsung upgradable TV!
First, I'd like to see a pipeline for 24 Hz content—before worrying about 60 Hz 4K (which is admittedly great for video games). Then, I'd like to see if Dolby Vision HDR is going to catch on. Finally, I'd like to know if the Vizio R is coming to market, and at what price.

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post #225 of 1679 Old 07-23-2014, 07:13 AM
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I've seen all those TVs multiple times, what makes you say the Panasonic is inferior?

Panasonic AX802 is Best 4K TV; ZT Plasma Pips LG OLED - hdtvtest

And look at reviewed.com... the Panny has the second highest score in that list.



The real problem is the 4K TV is sitting next to this guy (64-inch in my case)...

http://www.avforums.com/review/panas...v-review.10390

http://www.avforums.com/review/samsu...v-review.10154

Now I consider 2nd tier lesser than the best. The samsung and sony have kick butt processing that should be considered. Extra content.

Panasonic is a top tier plasma. Samsung a 2nd tier. Just was.
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post #226 of 1679 Old 07-23-2014, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Mrorange303 View Post
http://www.avforums.com/review/panas...v-review.10390

http://www.avforums.com/review/samsu...v-review.10154

Now I consider 2nd tier lesser than the best. The samsung and sony have kick butt processing that should be considered. Extra content.

Panasonic is a top tier plasma. Samsung a 2nd tier. Just was.
Sure, Panasonic has a AX900U in the works that will be the top-tier LCD, so sure... the AX800U is in fact second tier although Samsung is not building any FALD UHDTVs so IMO the AX800U is on approximately the same level. The Samsung F8500 plasma is top tier, that's well-established.

Sony and Samsung's attempt to provide content is far from adequate IMO. The systems are proprietary, and the selection is more limited than a Redbox on a Tuesday.
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post #227 of 1679 Old 07-23-2014, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
First, I'd like to see a pipeline for 24 Hz content—before worrying about 60 Hz 4K (which is admittedly great for video games). Then, I'd like to see if Dolby Vision HDR is going to catch on. Finally, I'd like to know if the Vizio R is coming to market, and at what price.
By then you may be hearing of even better upgrades coming and then your waiting for those. 4k is affordable now. When a couple thousand dollars are on the line 4k sets are available and in samsungs case some provide an excellent option to get into uhd now.

That Panasonic is frozen in time.

The Sony is frozen in time.

Software can only go so far. Samsung has a chance to at least be more comparable. That being said why not use our 4k sets to build our library in preparation for the affordable 4k oled sets?

I mean they are maybe 10 years out for most I hope and regardless technology has moved on. The cold reality is the uhd era is upon us. The material is not shrinking.

But every item shot in 4k is an item not created for hd. Yes the time line is huge. But like you said many DVD movies never made it to bluray.

Look at what they did with ghost busters and Philadelphia. They will make older movies better for uhd and allow them to stream. This will speed up the process. Netflix has demonstrated this.

These to me are all valid points.
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post #228 of 1679 Old 07-23-2014, 07:33 AM
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By then you may be hearing of even better upgrades coming and then your waiting for those. 4k is affordable now. When a couple thousand dollars are on the line 4k sets are available and in samsungs case some provide an excellent option to get into uhd now.

That Panasonic is frozen in time.

The Sony is frozen in time.

Software can only go so far. Samsung has a chance to at least be more comparable. That being said why not use our 4k sets to build our library in preparation for the affordable 4k oled sets?

I mean they are maybe 10 years our for most I hope and regardless technology has moved on. The cold reality is the uhd era is upon us. The material is not shrinking.

But every item shot in 4k is an item not created for hd. Yes the time line is huge. But like you said many DVD movies never made it to bluray.

Look at what they did with ghost busters and Philadelphia. They will make older movies better for uhd and allow them to stream. This will speed up the process. Netflix has demonstrated this.

These to me are all valid points.
8-bit edgelit panels also only go so far, Samsung can upgrade the video inputs and processing, but the panel itself is stuck in the past. Samsung only promises four years of upgrades via Smart Evolution. Also, I don't think OLED will take ten years to become affordable. The price of that tech dropped dramatically in just one year. When you look at the price of FALD UHD, LG's $27K 77-incher doesn't even seem that outrageous, not with Samsung selling the 85-inch S9 FALD LED for $40,000.

The vast majority of older movies have little to offer beyond 2K resolution, unless they were shot on 70mm film.

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post #229 of 1679 Old 07-23-2014, 07:33 AM
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If you've read Marks feedback and articles over many months here it should be clear that while he possesses a certain AV expertise to be respected he has a leaning towards the technology as doing it on the CHEAP targeted at hobbyists on a budget versus early adopters that aren't necessarily simply surviving within budget perspectives - we got's money and we don't need saving like we're at a Vegas casino on our last dollar.
Great point which most people ignore consciously or subconsiously.

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Being 63 and survived heart attacks , quad bypass and live with tech implanted in my chest some of us may not have a next generation timeline.
Man that sucks. Are you now on a healthier diet with loads of supplements? I've found correct eating, sleeping, and doing light exercise has immensely improve my attitude and lifestyle. Also, the wife is happier!

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Come on Mark can you truly say you can view a 4K panel at it's best (money differential aside) and 1080P panel with 4K from 8' and not see a dramatic difference? I've stood that 8' viewing 4K at it's best and it dwarfed the 1080P panel making it appear dull and boring.
I think there are people thinking with their head WAY too much here. Egos and attitudes are getting in the way. Consider the plethora of condescending comments invading these threads.

Just look at the pictures and compare! 4K blows away anything else so much it's not even funny. And my wife agrees on this, which is unheard of!
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post #230 of 1679 Old 07-23-2014, 07:42 AM
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Just look at the pictures and compare! 4K blows away anything else so much it's not even funny. And my wife agrees on this, which is unheard of!
That's not what happens when you get a 4K TV into a proper testing environment. What happens is the visible differences between 1080p and 2160p content shrink, and shrink, and shrink. And then, you add a reference plasma to the mix and dim the lights... and suddenly 1080p movies on a plasma look better than 4K on a LCD, thanks to superior contrast and far superior motion resolution. The added sharpness of 4K doesn't compensate for that unless you are quite close to the screen, and even then the action needs to slow down for the image to crispen up.
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post #231 of 1679 Old 07-23-2014, 07:44 AM
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Just look at the pictures and compare! 4K blows away anything else so much it's not even funny. And my wife agrees on this, which is unheard of!
If the wife is onboard then the battle is won. My wife still watches SD even though she has a nice 39" Panny smart tv. She claims that she doesn't see the difference, although she likes watching bd's.

I'm going to at least wait until the start of the NFL season. Usually there's a price drop between then and Christmas.
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post #232 of 1679 Old 07-23-2014, 07:48 AM
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If the wife is onboard then the battle is won. My wife still watches SD even though she has a nice 39" Panny smart tv. She claims that she doesn't see the difference, although she likes watching bd's.

I'm going to at least wait until the start of the NFL season. Usually there's a price drop between then and Christmas.
A good move since the Vizio P should be out around then, and I expect it to change the price/performance equation for UHD/4K.

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post #233 of 1679 Old 07-23-2014, 08:06 AM
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8-bit edgelit panels also only go so far, Samsung can upgrade the video inputs and processing, but the panel itself is stuck in the past. Samsung only promises four years of upgrades via Smart Evolution, BTW. Do you really think Samsung will support its panels with upgrades for ten years? Also, what makes you think OLED will take ten years to become affordable? The price of that tech dropped dramatically in just one year. When you look at the price of FALD UHD, LG's $27K 77-incher doesn't even seem that outrageous, not with Samsung selling the 85-inch S9 FALD LED for $40,000.

The vast majority of older movies have little to offer beyond 2K resolution, unless they were shot on 70mm film.
I agree with both of your views.8bit panels are dead and if Vizio makes the R series as price competitive as the P series we will have a new high end King!
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post #234 of 1679 Old 07-23-2014, 08:26 AM
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Why does everything have to be Plasma vs 4K LCD. As a few have mentioned, front projection is moving in the 4K direction. And though it is not cheap now, it will be soon. Heck even the newest 1080p JVC projectors leave Plasma in the the dust, specially when we consider size and image. Of course I am talking about folks who have a dedicated room and want a cinema experience or watch the big game on a big screen. For that front projection is the way to go. Now I love Plasma as well, fantastic image, but if one is going to claim Plasma is the top, they are leaving out the real kings of home cinema, front projectors. Which can really take advantage of 4K with the massive screen sizes available.

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post #235 of 1679 Old 07-23-2014, 08:37 AM
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Why does everything have to be Plasma vs 4K LCD. As a few have mentioned, front projection is moving in the 4K direction. And though it is not cheap now, it will be soon. Heck even the newest 1080p JVC projectors leave Plasma in the the dust, specially when we consider size and image. Of course I am talking about folks who have a dedicated room and want a cinema experience or watch the big game on a big screen. For that front projection is the way to go. Now I love Plasma as well, fantastic image, but if one is going to claim Plasma is the top, they are leaving out the real kings of home cinema, front projectors. Which can really take advantage of 4K with the massive screen sizes available.
Where are the announcements about forthcoming affordable UHD/4K projectors? Not that I don't expect them to exist at some point, but where are they? Yes FP is the king of big, high-contrast images but there is a huge cost difference between any plasma and a 4K home theater—it's not really the same league. On the other hand, 4K FP is a genuine bargain compared to Samsung's $120,000 105-inch ultra-wide UHDTV.

Valid comparisons of UHD to (consumer) plasma only applies to screen sizes 65 inches and under. If you need a 84-incher or larger, then LCD is your only choice when it comes to TVs. And, at that size UHD/4K will make a visible difference so long as the viewer doesn't sit too far away.
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post #236 of 1679 Old 07-23-2014, 08:44 AM
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Where are the announcements about forthcoming affordable UHD/4K projectors? Not that I don't expect them to exist at some point, but where are they? Yes FP is the king of big, high-contrast images but there is a huge cost difference between any plasma and a 4K home theater—it's not really the same league. On the other hand, 4K FP is a genuine bargain compared to Samsung's $120,000 105-inch ultra-wide UHDTV.

Valid comparisons of UHD to (consumer) plasma only applies to screen sizes 65 inches and under. If you need a 84-incher or larger, then LCD is your only choice when it comes to TVs. And, at that size UHD/4K will make a visible difference so long as the viewer doesn't sit too far away.

You are right about 4K projection not being cheap now, but I suspect in about 2 years it will be.

I guess I am just trying to point out that Plasma and LCD are not the only game in town.
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post #237 of 1679 Old 07-23-2014, 08:48 AM
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No, you showed me an article written by a non-engineer technologist reviewer in a consumer AV magazine. There is not one reference to any certified industry expert to support his claims.

Sorry, that's hardly credible in professional circles.

You are making the claim Plasma's are degraded at the "high" altitudes found in Colorado. I am simply asking for credible proof. So the burden of evidence is on you.
Welcome to AVS Forum, where we don't need proof or reason or measurable results but instead rely on data we pull straight from out of our butts sprinkled with a liberal helping of sarcasm!

I blame the recent 'mainstreaming' of the forum for this trend-- when I joined this site years ago I did so to learn and cultivate advice from the more experienced members of this forum. I didn't do it to pretend to be an expert or pass off my opinions as fact. While I have tried to share the knowledge I've gained and have certainly started a few arguments over the years I've done so trying to keep that original goal in mind. Even with a top tier plasma and a dedicated space for my movie watching I still consider myself a novice!

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post #238 of 1679 Old 07-23-2014, 09:20 AM
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Why does everything have to be Plasma vs 4K LCD. As a few have mentioned, front projection is moving in the 4K direction. And though it is not cheap now, it will be soon. Heck even the newest 1080p JVC projectors leave Plasma in the the dust, specially when we consider size and image. Of course I am talking about folks who have a dedicated room and want a cinema experience or watch the big game on a big screen. For that front projection is the way to go. Now I love Plasma as well, fantastic image, but if one is going to claim Plasma is the top, they are leaving out the real kings of home cinema, front projectors. Which can really take advantage of 4K with the massive screen sizes available.
Because it's AVS and even though plasma is, for all practical purposes, done you just can't have a thread that doesn't devolve into a plasma vs LCD war.
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post #239 of 1679 Old 07-23-2014, 09:48 AM
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Because it's AVS and even though plasma is, for all practical purposes, done you just can't have a thread that doesn't devolve into a plasma vs LCD war.
It's not done when you can still go out and buy one. It's a very real question. The Kuro saw no equal for years, and plenty of videophiles regretted not buying one. The same thing happened to the ZT60, VT60 and especially the ST60... and now you see them (even the ST60) selling for more than UHDTVs of the same size.

Anyhow, perhaps at this point next year discussing plamsa would truly be a moot point. But as of today, there's still a choice you can make. I'm certainly not advocating buying an expensive 1080p LCD over a similarly-priced UHD/4K unit. If that's the choice, go with UHD. For LCDs, 1080p is definitely the budget option at this point. So, in my view the 1080p vs. UHD question still boils down to plasma vs. LED, at the screen sizes most people tend to buy.

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post #240 of 1679 Old 07-23-2014, 10:00 AM
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I'm curious where you think more/finer detail actually comes from. Are you sure the settings on the two TVs are otherwise identical, save for resolution? So far, I have yet to see 1080p upscaled to UHD/4K provide any benefit whatsoever, in terms of resolution and detail rendition.
Here is where finer detail in an upscaled picture may come from. Consider smooth and almost-smooth lines, where the 1080p picture loses the difference between the slight roughness of some lines and their smooth counterparts -- both kinds of line will appear slightly rough. The upscaling to 4k will conceal the slight roughness, and make both sorts of line appear completely smooth. So information is lost whether or not there is upscaling, but some pictures will look more realistic with upscaling if they happen to have more completely smooth lines than almost-smooth lines. Many scenes we view on TV are like this -- their lines are predominantly smooth. For instance, program guides are built of smooth lines.

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