DirecTV Announces 4K VOD This Year - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 96 Old 08-07-2014, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post
I honestly hate the term compression when referring to losing come content in exchange for portability. Compression isn't the right term. They should call it palette reduction, because that's essentially what is done to make the files/streams smaller. The compression algorithm in of itself doesn't degrade the image quality, it's what done to the image prior to compression that degrades the quality.


I think what people want is the original palette shown to them regardless if it's compressed or not. No one wants an uncompressed feed since, as you stated above, it would require an insane amount of bandwidth.
Any compression scheme is a tool kit. You have choices where to cut and trim to get to your bit rate budget. But chroma sub sampling is just too ripe to ignore. We even knew that back in the 1950s when NTSC was developed. Chroma down sampling is nothing new.

And MPEG compression certainly does degrade the image. Look at an MPEG encode block. There is always prefiltering involved. If you don't think so take a 4:0:0 (black and white) image an run it through a 180:1 MPEG engine, then do a compare. It's a lot more than just chroma down sampling.

Note, we are talking about MPEG here used in consumer content delivery. I am well aware there are other image compression algorithms that are very high quality and some that are completly loseless. But these also still have relativity high bit rates with compression ratios of less than 10:1.

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post #62 of 96 Old 08-07-2014, 10:47 AM
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In reading the DirecTV press release, I wouldn't hold my breath for 4K satellite yet. They have committed to 4K VOD. That's easy, they could even sub contract that out to some ISP.

But to build out a 4K satellite infrastructure is a bit more involved and financially risky. Now the satellites and uplink systems are a no brainier. If 4K doesn't pan out they can easily be re purposed for basic data transmission which is highly profitable. The playout hardware is not that costly over HD hardware these days. The production costs, well that's the studio's problem.

The gotcha is the STB and possibly a new receiving dish or at least feedhorn. Then don't forget the installation costs. That's a lot of expense and tooling to just break even and often they sell/rent those boxes at a loss and make it up on the contract. Now what may help here is if DirecTV is going to release a new set of STB's within the next year anyway and the incremental cost to include 4K is minimal. That could work. What I don't see is DirecTV building a new STB strictly for 4K. That makes no financial sense, at this time.
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post #63 of 96 Old 08-07-2014, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Janibrewski View Post
As DirecTV customer who just ordered a 4K TV, I say Yippie, let's go.
Now that's what I like to hear.

"Bring out yer dead!".."Wait I'm not dead yet!"..(Sound Austrian here) "WRONG !!" (You know what happens next..)
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post #64 of 96 Old 08-07-2014, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post
The gotcha is the STB and possibly a new receiving dish or at least feedhorn. .
Why is that? Folks are already receiving 4K testchannels all over the world. All they need is a 4K STB/receiver/build in satellite tuner.
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post #65 of 96 Old 08-07-2014, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
Why is that? Folks are already receiving 4K testchannels all over the world. All they need is a 4K STB/receiver/build in satellite tuner.
Well how much does it cost to design, debug, and manufacture an initial run of 100,000 boxes? How long does it take.

As I said, if they are already designing a new breed of STB's and decide to throw in 4K functionality, that's not a big deal. But to embark on a new STB design just for the 4K market is a huge expense.

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post #66 of 96 Old 08-08-2014, 05:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post
Well how much does it cost to design, debug, and manufacture an initial run of 100,000 boxes? How long does it take.

As I said, if they are already designing a new breed of STB's and decide to throw in 4K functionality, that's not a big deal. But to embark on a new STB design just for the 4K market is a huge expense.
I remember folks selling HD dishes (and HD lnb's) telling people they need such dish to receive HD, which, of course, is nonsense.

So why do folks need a new dish/feedhorn (lnb) to receive 4K? Which is what you've said ''possibly new receiving dish or at least feedhorn..'' I general you know much more about this stuff than most of us do so i ask..
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post #67 of 96 Old 08-08-2014, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
I remember folks selling HD dishes (and HD lnb's) telling people they need such dish to receive HD, which, of course, is nonsense.

So why do folks need a new dish/feedhorn (lnb) to receive 4K? Which is what you've said ''possibly new receiving dish or at least feedhorn..'' I general you know much more about this stuff than most of us do so i ask..
It's not the ability to receive particular content that creates the need for a new dish, it's the location of the bird sending it out.

The reason the dishes have been upgraded over the years is to add the ability to see all those various satellites that have been added over the years. It's not an "HD capable" dish, it's a multi-satellite capable dish.

Technically, over the years, you could have kept your old round dish. It's just that you would have to add more of them to point at all the birds where the channels reside (and a multiswitch to tune between them).

All the new dishes do is add the ability to collect all those satellite beams and provide the capability to send those signals to multiple tuners in your home.


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post #68 of 96 Old 08-08-2014, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by NetworkTV View Post
It's not the ability to receive particular content that creates the need for a new dish, it's the location of the bird sending it out.

The reason the dishes have been upgraded over the years is to add the ability to see all those various satellites that have been added over the years. It's not an "HD capable" dish, it's a multi-satellite capable dish.

Technically, over the years, you could have kept your old round dish. It's just that you would have to add more of them to point at all the birds where the channels reside (and a multiswitch to tune between them).

All the new dishes do is add the ability to collect all those satellite beams and provide the capability to send those signals to multiple tuners in your home.
I live in Europe. When a desired channel is on a odd satellite, outside the main satellites best thing is to have a Motor-driven dish (with one lnb). There is a 4k channel on Hotbird (10.930H, 27500, 3/4 DVB-S2 H.265) which one can receive with a few UHD TVs.

I did not have to upgrade my satellite dish or lnb's over five years. Two biggest satellite clusters in Europe are Astra 1 19.02 east and Hotbird 13.0 east. Lots of changes, never had to change anything. I also receive UK channels on Astra 2 28.2 east and subscription channels on Astra 3 23.5 east.


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post #69 of 96 Old 08-08-2014, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
I remember folks selling HD dishes (and HD lnb's) telling people they need such dish to receive HD, which, of course, is nonsense.

So why do folks need a new dish/feedhorn (lnb) to receive 4K? Which is what you've said ''possibly new receiving dish or at least feedhorn..'' I general you know much more about this stuff than most of us do so i ask..
Member NetworkTV explained this quite well above.

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post #70 of 96 Old 08-08-2014, 12:22 PM
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The reason the dishes have been upgraded over the years is to add the ability to see all those various satellites that have been added over the years. It's not an "HD capable" dish, it's a multi-satellite capable dish.
I don't think this has actually happened, in the case of DirecTV. When I first subscribed in 2007, I needed two large dishes to point to the satellites I needed to receive from to get all the HD channels. Then DirecTV switched to mpeg4 and sent up more satellites, updating their system so that now I need only one of those two dishes to receive all the HD channels. That is, what has happened is just the opposite of what you describe.

I don't see any reason to think that new dishes will be needed for 4K.

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post #71 of 96 Old 08-08-2014, 12:38 PM
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I don't think this has actually happened, in the case of DirecTV. When I first subscribed in 2007, I needed two large dishes to point to the satellites I needed to receive from to get all the HD channels. Then DirecTV switched to mpeg4 and sent up more satellites, updating their system so that now I need only one of those two dishes to receive all the HD channels. That is, what has happened is just the opposite of what you describe.

I don't see any reason to think that new dishes will be needed for 4K.
If DirecTV puts a new satellite in orbit, and your dish does not have an LNB pointing at it, then you will need:

1) Another separate dish and an automatic switch.
or
2) A new feed horn assembly that includes the new LNB plus all the other you had but the base dish shape may be OK.
or
3) A totally new dish with the new LNB built in.

If they squeeze the 4K channel into existing satellite capacity, then your old dish will probably be fine. But you will still need a new receiver to get 4K as the compression will likely be different and certainly the HDMI output will have to support 4K. I sincerely doubt current models can do that.

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post #72 of 96 Old 08-08-2014, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post
If DirecTV puts a new satellite in orbit, and your dish does not have an LNB pointing at it, then you will need: ...
Yes, but why do you think DirecTV would put up new satellites in places my current dish and LNB don't point at? Just so they would have the extra expenses of updating my installation? I think you must be assuming that each new satellite that goes up requires a unique configuration of dish(es) and LNBs in each home. That is not so.

On the other hand, looking past the VOD stage, the recent FCC filing I mentioned previously contemplates using the BSS frequency band for future UHD streaming service, and I don't know whether present home equipment can receiver that band.

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post #73 of 96 Old 08-08-2014, 01:14 PM
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Yes, but why do you think DirecTV would put up new satellites in places my current dish and LNB don't point at? Just so they would have the extra expenses of updating my installation? I think you must be assuming that each new satellite that goes up requires a unique configuration of dish(es) and LNBs in each home. That is not so.
Because they may not have a choice. There is only so much room up there in the sweet spot called the "Clark Belt". Your dish has a limited range of arc. The exact position of the LNB is critical within a degree or two of that arc. Unless these new proposed satellites they spoke of in the press release are REPLACING current satellites your dish is currently focused at, you won't see them without a new or modified dish.

DBS is a point to point system. It does not work the same as GPS and other low flying satellites.

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post #74 of 96 Old 08-08-2014, 02:09 PM
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Unless these new proposed satellites they spoke of in the press release are REPLACING current satellites your dish is currently focused at, you won't see them without a new or modified dish.
My dish now receives from satellites at locations at 99, 101, 103, 110, and 119 degrees (according to my satellite receiver). Do you have any idea how many physical satellites are involved or any means of estimating how many others could be added at those same locations? I would like to see some evidence that what you say here is correct.

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post #75 of 96 Old 08-08-2014, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
My dish now receives from satellites at locations at 99, 101, 103, 110, and 119 degrees (according to my satellite receiver). Do you have any idea how many physical satellites are involved or any means of estimating how many others could be added at those same locations? I would like to see some evidence that what you say here is correct.
It's simple. If they put up a new satellite(s) for 4K and it's not at one of those positions you noted above, you are going to need a new or modified dish. That much is a fact.

As they have not commented on where new satellites will be located we don't know if new or modified dishes will be required or not.

Do some Google research if you want to learn more about satellite communication.

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post #76 of 96 Old 08-08-2014, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
My dish now receives from satellites at locations at 99, 101, 103, 110, and 119 degrees (according to my satellite receiver). Do you have any idea how many physical satellites are involved or any means of estimating how many others could be added at those same locations? I would like to see some evidence that what you say here is correct.
If you have had DTV for more than a few years then you already have the evidence you're asking for. They have required new dish/LNB configurations for each of their major upgrades. It's just how satellite TV works, I'm afraid. It is generally a much smaller expense for them to replace terrestrial equipment than equipment that is in outer space. So they add new birds and upgrade those who want to pay for the new service. Trust this though - they aren't upgrading it for free. The expense is covered in spades by subscribers.
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post #77 of 96 Old 08-08-2014, 03:06 PM
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It's simple. If they put up a new satellite(s) for 4K and it's not at one of those positions you noted above, you are going to need a new or modified dish. That much is a fact.
right. but that has nothing to do with 4K but with adding new satellite positions for 4K transmissions.

Here in Europe each country has just one or two positions for most of their stuff. For instance the UK has only one position with four satellites and one planned, 28.2 East. Rarely they come up with a satellite position for which you need a extra lnb or new dish because it alienates customers. Does that happen a lot in the USA?
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post #78 of 96 Old 08-08-2014, 03:24 PM
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As they have not commented on where new satellites will be located we don't know if new or modified dishes will be required or not.
I think you're the one who should be doing some research. This is from an FCC filing in June:
Quote:
DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC seeks authority to launch and operate the Ka-band payload of the DIRECTV 15 satellite at the nominal 103 WL orbital location, and to launch (but not operate) the 12/17 GHz DBS payload on the spacecraft.
http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws....rC/File+Number

But even if DirecTV hadn't actually said where it intends to put up its next bird, there would still be no reason to accept your conjectures about new satellites for 4K requiring new dishes. You haven't provided a particle of evidence.

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post #79 of 96 Old 08-08-2014, 03:28 PM
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Rarely they come up with a satellite position for which you need a extra lnb or new dish because it alienates customers. Does that happen a lot in the USA?
No, it doesn't. I already pointed out that the last big change DirecTV made in it's satellite configuration did not increase the number of dishes I needed for all domestic HD channels, but instead it reduced the number. Glimmie is just making it up as he goes.

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post #80 of 96 Old 08-08-2014, 03:31 PM
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No, it doesn't. I already pointed out that the last big change DirecTV made in it's satellite configuration did not increase the number of dishes I needed for all domestic HD channels, but instead it reduced the number. Glimmie is just making it up as he goes.
As a former DTV customer, I had to upgrade my dish 4 different times. Maybe they're doing things differently now, but I've had single-LNB, dual, triple, and 5-LNB configurations. Each time was free to me, unless you count the monthly service increases, but it was always a new dish with new LNBs. I can only speak from personal experience, but that definitely happened.
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post #81 of 96 Old 08-08-2014, 03:46 PM
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I think you're the one who should be doing some research. This is from an FCC filing in June:
http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws....rC/File+Number

But even if DirecTV hadn't actually said where it intends to put up its next bird, there would still be no reason to accept your conjectures about new satellites for 4K requiring new dishes. You haven't provided a particle of evidence.
You are putting words in my mouth here. This is what I said in the initial post that seems to have started this:

"The gotcha is the STB and possibly a new receiving dish or at least feedhorn."

Note the word POSSIBLY.

What I have been trying to get across is that IF they have to put 4K on a new satelite in a position to which your dish is not looking at, then a new dish or a modification will be required. There is nothing non-factual in that statement. Now based on your last post you show that the orbital slot will be 103 and you also stated your current dish has an LNB at 103. OK, so it's highly likely you won't need a new dish. I never said you or anybody outright would. Only if the new birds are placed in a position that is not supported by current hardware.

Clear enough?

P.S. I am an industry insider here who started in the satellite industry in the early 1980s and then moved into production and mastering. Look at my post history.

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post #82 of 96 Old 08-08-2014, 03:51 PM
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right. but that has nothing to do with 4K but with adding new satellite positions for 4K transmissions.
Exactly. I thought I was clear on that. I guess I wasn't for some.

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As a former DTV customer, I had to upgrade my dish 4 different times. Maybe they're doing things differently now, but I've had single-LNB, dual, triple, and 5-LNB configurations. Each time was free to me, unless you count the monthly service increases, but it was always a new dish with new LNBs. I can only speak from personal experience, but that definitely happened.
Same with Dish network. The first HDTV was at 61.5. Then 148. Then they went to 129. But the primary Dish network locations always were and still are 110 and 119.

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As a former DTV customer, I had to upgrade my dish 4 different times. Maybe they're doing things differently now, but I've had single-LNB, dual, triple, and 5-LNB configurations.
Well, my LNB could have been upgraded since 2007, I guess, but dishes are not LNBs. I still have the original dish that was installed in 2007. My situation may be different since I'm in Hawaii, and my dish is a special large model, 30" I think.

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post #85 of 96 Old 08-08-2014, 04:26 PM
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You are putting words in my mouth here.
Oh, really? What words were those? You said above, "Unless these new proposed satellites they spoke of in the press release are REPLACING current satellites your dish is currently focused at, you won't see them without a new or modified dish." There is no basis for this at all.

You also said above, "If they squeeze the 4K channel into existing satellite capacity, then your old dish will probably be fine. But you will still need a new receiver to get 4K as the compression will likely be different and certainly the HDMI output will have to support 4K. I sincerely doubt current models can do that." This is also probably wrong. I mentioned above that since Samsung 4K TVs can receive video from Genie DirecTV receivers over the net, HDMI can be by-passed and (presumably) the TV can to the decoding of the h.265 video.

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post #86 of 96 Old 08-08-2014, 04:56 PM
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Oh, really? What words were those? You said above, "Unless these new proposed satellites they spoke of in the press release are REPLACING current satellites your dish is currently focused at, you won't see them without a new or modified dish." There is no basis for this at all.

You also said above, "If they squeeze the 4K channel into existing satellite capacity, then your old dish will probably be fine. But you will still need a new receiver to get 4K as the compression will likely be different and certainly the HDMI output will have to support 4K. I sincerely doubt current models can do that." This is also probably wrong. I mentioned above that since Samsung 4K TVs can receive video from Genie DirecTV receivers over the net, HDMI can be by-passed and (presumably) the TV can to the decoding of the h.265 video.
There is plenty of basis that if a satellite is placed where a dish has no LNB (also known as a feed horn) some modification will have to be made. I still don't see why this is an issue for you. Again if they are putting the new birds at 103 and your dish has a functioning LNB at 103, it's proably OK. But I still cannot say for sure and neither can you because neither of us know DirecTV's exact plan or if any incompatibilities exist. And as a broadcast engineer I can only speculate based on my background that it will probably work as is.

Does the the Genie send h265 to a Samsung TV? If it does fine. But what about people who have Sony or Panasonic TVs?

I and others here have tried to explain the issues with this 4K rollout which I am professionally involved in but you don't want to hear anything negative. Then bury your head in the sand. It is what it is. You are painting my cautions based on industry unknowns as facts which I did not state.

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post #87 of 96 Old 08-08-2014, 05:46 PM
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You are painting my cautions based on industry unknowns as facts which I did not state.
I quoted you exactly. It's right there in black and white.

I don't know whether the Genie can transfer h.265 video to a Samsung TV. It's just a guess. It would have to be done using the RVU protocol, I gather, and I don't know enough about that to say.

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post #88 of 96 Old 08-08-2014, 05:50 PM
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I live in Europe. When a desired channel is on a odd satellite, outside the main satellites best thing is to have a Motor-driven dish (with one lnb). There is a 4k channel on Hotbird (10.930H, 27500, 3/4 DVB-S2 H.265) which one can receive with a few UHD TVs.

I did not have to upgrade my satellite dish or lnb's over five years. Two biggest satellite clusters in Europe are Astra 1 19.02 east and Hotbird 13.0 east. Lots of changes, never had to change anything. I also receive UK channels on Astra 2 28.2 east and subscription channels on Astra 3 23.5 east.


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DirecTV doesn't support such a setup here. They prefer non-motor dishes for both reliability and ease of installation. The dishes are also relatively cheap to produce in their current form, so users are actually encouraged to leave the dish behind when they move and request a new one be installed wherever they move to.

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I don't think this has actually happened, in the case of DirecTV. When I first subscribed in 2007, I needed two large dishes to point to the satellites I needed to receive from to get all the HD channels. Then DirecTV switched to mpeg4 and sent up more satellites, updating their system so that now I need only one of those two dishes to receive all the HD channels. That is, what has happened is just the opposite of what you describe.

I don't see any reason to think that new dishes will be needed for 4K.
I've had 3 different dishes since joining D* in the late 90's: my original round dish for SD service, my 3 LNB dish for when my market got local channel service on 119 and my current 5 LNB model for HD.

Unless I'm mistaken, the last update to the dish they offer was for single wire installs and is unrelated to the ability to see the satellites.

As far as 4K, the need for a new dish will depend upon what orbital slot D* is able to get assigned to them for the satellite they launch for it. If it's near enough to existing slots, you might be OK with current hardware.

Having said that, I'm not sure why it's such a big deal. If you need a new dish, they'll install one and it's unlikely they'll charge you for it. Now, the receiver that might be needed to view the content might come with the need to sign a new agreement, but that's a different story.


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post #89 of 96 Old 08-08-2014, 06:19 PM
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Having said that, I'm not sure why it's such a big deal. If you need a new dish, they'll install one and it's unlikely they'll charge you for it. Now, the receiver that might be needed to view the content might come with the need to sign a new agreement, but that's a different story.
I have very little personal interest in 4K, now. I have a 4K set, but I got it with the idea of showing upconverted 1080i from DirecTV -- not 4K. I'm just interested in what DirecTV is going to do. I'm not going to get 4K, myself, from DirecTV for quite a while.

There is a puzzle here: in November, Mike White indicated that since 3D has not worked out well, DirecTV was going to approach UHD very cautiously. Yet a few months later, here he is, apparently committing vast resources to start UHD streaming. Satellite capacity? New receivers for HDMI 2.0 for millions of customers? New dishes? New LNBs? It doesn't seem to make sense.

I'm trying to explain how DirecTV could do what it says, yet make a minimal additional commitment. It has already agreed with Samsung to use the RVU capability. It has already deployed the Genie receiver that has RVU. It was sending up another satellite anyhow. I don't think much more has to be done to get some 4K to a few DirecTV subscribers on a pilot basis.

So DirecTV subscribers, IMO, should not expect much.

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post #90 of 96 Old 08-08-2014, 07:07 PM
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This is where i read about it first. http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/...ust----/271735 I assumed it was for UHD broadcast singnal. Then i login to see Scott's post about 4K Directv. What i find odd is Directv moving from Boeing BSS-702 satellites to Loral LS-1300 and Eurostar E3000 satellites. 6 out of 14 of Directv's satellites in orbit now are Boeing BSS-702 satellites, and have worked flawlessly, hey they brought me HD and 3D!, the oldest being in orbit since May 2002. As most of Directv satellite launches are either Russia Proton M rockets or the European Space Agency(ESA) Ariane 5 ECA type rockets. These two new satellites will also be launched from Ariane 5 rockets, probably the ECA type. These Ariane 5 rockets have a good record with 4 failures and 71 successes out of 75 launches. I am curious about Directv's use of the Astrium Eurostar E3000 satellite, something tells me this will be the UHD of the bunch. As the Loral LS-1300 is selected for a 99.2°W orbit, and that same orbit is currently used by a Boeing BSS-702 put into orbit in 2008.

Yep, the next few months will be interesting for Directv. But, they have some stiff competition from Comcast, as i heard Comcast was/is going to send 4K/UHD over there XB3 platform, as Comcast estimated a 4K signal between 18-22 mbps. But that's internet and i have heard nothing about 4K "over the wire", yet.

And the payoff is never certain: Some observers contend that a generation has already been trained to be content with the small screen.
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