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post #91 of 213 Old 08-08-2014, 12:02 PM
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Jonathan, do you consider all of the other seven 'floor height' channels "dumb"? How have we come so far with surround sound that now it is no good to add new vectors to what we have now? We have two to four whole new vector points for sound to be anchored in a dimension that has never been covered before. I know the whole re-mapping thing sounds cool but to think that effective use without it is not possible?

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post #92 of 213 Old 08-08-2014, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
I think it's a rather large step up, imho.

"Just more channels/speakers?" Well, yeah. Why is that not impressive? Before yes we had some new locations made up by post-processing algorithms arbitrarily placing content that was not intended to be in these new locations at all. Now we will be getting content that is fully intended to originate from these new overhead speaker locations.

I think that's awesome!
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'just more channels' is not Atmos.

They pumped us up with the tech and then watered it down and gave us more of what we already had, under the emtpy guise of something greater.

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post #93 of 213 Old 08-08-2014, 12:09 PM
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Many of my comments on these threads would make one think otherwise.

On one page, I am a pessimist. On another an optimist.

The re-mapping portion of both the cinema and home version sounded cool but for me was really a non-factor. Yes these objects get specific coordinates. Great. There has to be an optimal and prefered speaker layout anyway. I will always adhere to those guidelines and in the process all these x,y,z coordinated objects will be right where I mean them to be. If I want an object that is supposed to image directly overhead I will either: place a pair of overhead speakers.... overhead or I will place four overhead surrounds in a square shape (as depicted in numerous diagrams) and I will arrage them so the center of that square is directly over my MLP.

This isn't rocket science. Hell, I'm doing rocket science right now while posting this very comment.




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post #94 of 213 Old 08-08-2014, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

'just more channels' is not Atmos.

They pumped us up with the tech and then watered it down and gave us more of what we already had, under the emtpy guise of something greater.
"Something greater" WILL come with time, my friend. You have an excellent pre/pro right now. Enjoy it and get your moneys worth and then in a year or two maybe all this object stuff will be more appealing.



Dolby Atmos: The Great Long Wait


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post #95 of 213 Old 08-08-2014, 12:45 PM
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I would be happy if an av processors had a map like the Trinnov website shows. Pick the approximate speaker location related to the output channel on the processor. I wouldn't have all of the speakers, but this would be a relatively easy way to tell the system where the connected speakers are in your setup. This Trinnov Altitude32 will be out this fall.
Trinnov Altitude looks like it will use home Atmos just as it was described by Dolby. Again, it all comes back to content creators and people making the av processors.

I have posted too much and will start moving my comments not relating to the white paper to the other Atmos thread.

My cup runneth over.


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post #96 of 213 Old 08-08-2014, 01:20 PM
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Thanks Aras. Sounds good to me as is your idea of other placement options. From my situation one can see how necessary the upward firing speaker is to the success of Atmos at home because there will be others in the same situation. I'd love to have higher ceilings as it opens up the sound but this will do for now.
Np, YW! Don't quote me on this as I'm not an expert... but if I remember correctly in that same episode (or in one of the forums I read on here) it was implied that the Atmos is advantageous to those with small rooms because it will make the room appear larger audibly due to the artificial sound scape that Atmos produces. I think the example used was a cave? So you have those overhead reflected sounds coming in, it sort of makes you think the ceiling is as tall as that cave would be (supposedly?).
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post #97 of 213 Old 08-08-2014, 01:49 PM
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Yeah for more true channels, but object based audio for home theaters this does not seem to be.
I think it has the most important ingredient - real height information that will make a much bigger difference in spatial recreation than just adding more lateral channels.
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post #98 of 213 Old 08-08-2014, 01:51 PM
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I think it has the most important ingredient - real height information that will make a much bigger difference in spatial recreation than just adding more lateral channels.

This times infinity.

First time ever that we are getting real height content on the consumer end.

And Auro doesn't count!

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post #99 of 213 Old 08-08-2014, 03:12 PM
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And Auro doesn't count!
What's Auro?
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post #100 of 213 Old 08-08-2014, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Source?: All the threads on Atmos for the last couple months. Like you I was super excited about it at first.

Your bolded line is where I fell out. Sdurani's post nailed what is actually being released to us as I understand it.
which says atmos for home is still encoded as an location based audio system, and 1st gen processors simply haven't made use of that, YET.


I don't care what the first avr with atmos is capable of, that's NOT a representation of the possibility. what I care about is how the atmos soundtrack is made at the source. IF it's location based, which it seems to be, then the possibilities are limitless. the difference between channel based and location based audio is revolutionary, and that's what I'm most excited for. if the receivers don't really take advantage of that for a few years, so be it, that's disappointing, but it's no slight against atmos.


at the end of the day, it still appears as though an atmos bluray will be indefinitely future-proof! the factor that will determine it's quality is not the source, but the processing done afterwards. for now, we may have to settle for 7.1.4 or whatever the avr's are capable of. but that's only the starting point, and NOT the limit.
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post #101 of 213 Old 08-08-2014, 03:37 PM
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which says atmos for home is still encoded as an location based audio system, and 1st gen processors simply haven't made use of that, YET.
Correct. Somewhere in the Atmos decoder is a list of speakers with a pre-determined location next to each one. Currently, the user gets to choose which of those speakers to use, depending on configuration (9.1.2, 7.1.4, 5.1.2, etc).

The hope is that the location info will go from a pre-determined number on 1st-gen products to a variable that the user will be able to enter (the actual location of the speakers) on future products.

Yamaha's upcoming line of Atmos receivers can measure speaker locations in 3D space (distance, azimuth, elevation). Unfortunately, that information is not entered into the Atmos rendering engine. Maybe someday.

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post #102 of 213 Old 08-08-2014, 03:48 PM
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I would be happy if an av processors had a map like the Trinnov website shows. Pick the approximate speaker location related to the output channel on the processor. I wouldn't have all of the speakers, but this would be a relatively easy way to tell the system where the connected speakers are in your setup.
Agreed. There is a similar diagram in the Atmos white paper:



For devices that don't measure actual speaker locations, like Trinnov does. the above graphic (or something similar) would make for a nice interface in the speaker set-up menu. Just click on however many or few of the above speakers you have and the approximate locations are set.

Even on a 7-channel receiver, this would allow the rendering engine to know whether your single pair of surrounds is at 90 degrees or 105 degrees or 120 degrees.
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post #103 of 213 Old 08-08-2014, 04:00 PM
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"Just more channels/speakers?" Well, yeah. Why is that not impressive?
Because it isn't more channels/speakers. 11-channel receivers have been around for a few years. None of the upcoming Atmos receivers have more channels.
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post #104 of 213 Old 08-08-2014, 04:08 PM
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From my understanding the new Atmos home theater content has two 'dumb' ceiling tracks playing that can be ignored or mixed in with surround speakers - these channels play the same content regardless of the precise placement of those ceiling speakers and in the same manner for every single speaker setup that has home theater based atmos.
I wouldn't be so sure. If you connected a pair of speakers to the height outputs and cycled the configuration menu through all five possible locations (front height, top front, top middle, top rear, rear height), do you think it would continue playing the same content? That would mean there are no overhead front/back pans in any of the Atmos mixes. Do you really believe that?

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post #105 of 213 Old 08-08-2014, 04:10 PM
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Because it isn't more channels/speakers. 11-channel receivers have been around for a few years. None of the upcoming Atmos receivers have more channels.

Yoooouuuu know what I meant.

Plus there has not been any discrete content beyond 7.1 until now ...erm, when Atmos titles eventually release. Or if you want to be pedantic about it is 7.1+objects.

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post #106 of 213 Old 08-08-2014, 04:24 PM
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I don't understand the backward-compatibility explained in the first white paper. Atmos soundtracks on Blu-ray will still work with a non-Atmos AVR which will see it as a TrueHD soundtrack. How can that work?

I understand the Atmos track has a "bed" of 9.1 channels, plus the objects. But it wouldn't make sense to use 5.1 or 7.1 of those bed channels as the backward-compatible soundtrack, because then you don't get any of the sounds of the objects.

The only way I can see it working is if the Atmos track also includes a complete 5.1/7.1 TrueHD track that is ignored by an Atmos AVR. That means a big increase in bitrate and file size.
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post #107 of 213 Old 08-08-2014, 04:28 PM
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Or they are simply 'folded' into the 5/7.1 layer and the Atmos-aware device extracts them properly.

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post #108 of 213 Old 08-08-2014, 04:30 PM
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Yoooouuuu know what I meant.
I was responding to the part where you asked "Why is that not impressive?"

Indeed, why is the roll out of an exciting new technology not impressive to some? Because first gen products are not fulfilling the potential of object based audio, including more channels/speakers.

Dolby must have known at least some consumers would feel this way, hence their FAQ addressing why Atmos isn't adding more speakers than we've already had for a few years.

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post #109 of 213 Old 08-08-2014, 04:37 PM
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Ah, gotcha!

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post #110 of 213 Old 08-08-2014, 04:39 PM
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The only way I can see it working is if the Atmos track also includes a complete 5.1/7.1 TrueHD track that is ignored by an Atmos AVR.
There is a complete 5.1 or 7.1 TrueHD track but it isn't ignored by the Atmos decoder. Instead, it forms the core of Atmos decoding. There is an extension packet that contains the objects and their location information. As the objects are decoded, that audio data is also cancelled from the 5.1 or 7.1 core, leaving only the bed channels behind.

That doesn't require a completely separate soundtrack, just a 5.1+objects or a 7.1+objects track. Legacy AVRs will recognize the channel-based core and ignore the extension packet. Object-aware AVRs will recognize the extension packet and will reconstitute the original channels+objects soundtrack.
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post #111 of 213 Old 08-08-2014, 04:43 PM
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As usual, I 'm a little late to the party. Looks like the white paper raises more questions than it answers.

The ceiling height issue is one that has me concerned. Another related issue is dedicated spaces with multi-level seating. Now you have a height difference between the two rows that could cause issues. Seems like that money seat is going to be even more sought after.

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post #112 of 213 Old 08-08-2014, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
There is a complete 5.1 or 7.1 TrueHD track but it isn't ignored by the Atmos decoder. Instead, it forms the core of Atmos decoding. There is an extension packet that contains the objects and their location information. As the objects are decoded, that audio data is also cancelled from the 5.1 or 7.1 core, leaving only the bed channels behind.
I see. So with an Atmos AVR, the sound coming from each of the 5.1 traditional speakers consists of the bed channel, minus the cancelled objects, plus the redirected objects. That sounds like a crazy amount of DSP but it would solve the bitrate problem.

What is your source for this info? I haven't seen it explained that way before.
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post #113 of 213 Old 08-08-2014, 04:57 PM
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As usual, I 'm a little late to the party. Looks like the white paper raises more questions than it answers.

The ceiling height issue is one that has me concerned. Another related issue is dedicated spaces with multi-level seating. Now you have a height difference between the two rows that could cause issues. Seems like that money seat is going to be even more sought after.
What questions are still left unanswered?

I'm waiting for the gear and the titles at this point.


And yes, there will always be the 'money seat'. Even with Atmos.
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post #114 of 213 Old 08-08-2014, 05:04 PM
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The details, mostly. I know I should just be patient, but I'm excited
  1. What happens when my ceiling is right at the 8' mark, or just under. Is it better to have in-ceiling or Atmos enabled in those circumstances?
  2. Where are the best locations for ceiling mounted speakers?
  3. What's the best layout for multiple rows? Is it still four speakers, or does that move up to six now?
  4. What about the first row with a ceiling height greater than 8' but a second row less than 8'?
  5. If the ceiling is just under 8', can we use enabled speakers but mount them lower? It's same distance after all.
I'd really like to prewire for this, so it's the details that I'm missing.

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post #115 of 213 Old 08-08-2014, 05:05 PM
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So with an Atmos AVR, the sound coming from each of the 5.1 traditional speakers consists of the bed channel, minus the cancelled objects, plus the redirected objects.
Right, the 5.1 track is a downmix that contains all the sounds in the soundtrack. An Atmos decoder will separate that track into bed channels and objects.
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That sounds like a crazy amount of DSP but it would solve the bitrate problem.
And save half the storage space compared to having two complete soundtrack on a disc.
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What is your source for this info?
The white paper that is the topic of this thread.
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I haven't seen it explained that way before.
Strip out the technical mumbo jumbo and the codec structure is easy to understand.

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post #116 of 213 Old 08-08-2014, 05:20 PM
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The details, mostly. I know I should just be patient, but I'm excited
  1. What happens when my ceiling is right at the 8' mark, or just under. Is it better to have in-ceiling or Atmos enabled in those circumstances?Depends on the angle but I believe that one would prefer to use actual speakers if possible. "better to use Atmos speakers" really depends on your circumstances.
  2. Where are the best locations for ceiling mounted speakers?Depends on if you want to use 2 or 4 ceiling speakers. Let's assume you're going to use 4 and you have a conventional 7.1 layout. You will want your front ceiling pair in front of your front left and right but ahead of your side surrounds. Likewise you will mount the rear ceiling heights between your side surrounds and rear surrounds.
  3. What's the best layout for multiple rows? Is it still four speakers, or does that move up to six now?Eh. Good question. Time will tell when we can expand beyond 7.1.4 speaker layout. You might need or want more side surround and ceiling speakers positioned.
  4. What about the first row with a ceiling height greater than 8' but a second row less than 8'?I'd keep the ceiling speakers at the same height. One way or another you're going to have to make a compromise to one of those rows. Think about it this way... Have you had any discrete content up above? Nope. So either way the effect should be pretty good to great.
  5. If the ceiling is just under 8', can we use enabled speakers but mount them lower? It's same distance after all.Umm... not sure about this one.
I'd really like to prewire for this, so it's the details that I'm missing.

Hope that helps.

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post #117 of 213 Old 08-08-2014, 05:57 PM
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The white paper that is the topic of this thread. Strip out the technical mumbo jumbo and the codec structure is easy to understand.
I believe you, but I just reread the white paper and still can't find the backward compatibility explained in that way.
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post #118 of 213 Old 08-08-2014, 06:20 PM
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I just reread the white paper and still can't find the backward compatibility explained in that way.
Page 13: "Dolby has extended the Dolby TrueHD format, used in Blu-ray discs, to allow the format to carry Dolby Atmos content. Before Dolby Atmos, Dolby TrueHD included lossless support for channel-based audio such as 5.1 and 7.1. We have added a fourth substream for Dolby Atmos sound. This substream represents a losslessly encoded fully object-based mix."

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post #119 of 213 Old 08-08-2014, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Page 13: "Dolby has extended the Dolby TrueHD format, used in Blu-ray discs, to allow the format to carry Dolby Atmos content. Before Dolby Atmos, Dolby TrueHD included lossless support for channel-based audio such as 5.1 and 7.1. We have added a fourth substream for Dolby Atmos sound. This substream represents a losslessly encoded fully object-based mix."
Sure, but where does that say (or imply) that the TrueHD track has the objects already mixed-in and will be removed by an Atmos AVR? That fourth substream could be a completely separate soundtrack (which TrueHD already includes today in the form of an AC3 track).
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post #120 of 213 Old 08-08-2014, 06:38 PM
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That fourth substream could be a completely separate soundtrack (which TrueHD already includes today in the form of an AC3 track).
Substreams are not complete soundtracks.

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