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post #181 of 213 Old 08-12-2014, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
The Atmos format supports a 9.1 bed that includes heights but not wides. So, Atmos-equipped receivers have no choice in the matter. Speakers placed at the wide location and between the L/C/R speakers are supported, but only for objects. There are no channel beds for those locations.

This is where the confusion lies for me.
If Atmos was fully object based, this seems center wides would be support in the mapping of sound.
So from this, I conclude it is a hybrid.


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post #182 of 213 Old 08-12-2014, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post
I guess my confusion about the specifics of Atmos processing continues...

For example: If I were to play back an "optimized for 5.1.4" Atmos soundtrack on a 9.1.2 configuration, my uncertainties are a follows:

(1) Are the 9 Main Layer and 2 Height Layer speakers all available to be used to reproduce the Objects? (I think the answer here is "yes".)

(2) Is some Base FL|FC|FR|SL|SR content from the BD "post processed" and sent to the Back Left|Right (BL|BR) Main Layer speakers, "somewhat like old style DLPIIx processing?" (I think the answer here is "yes".)

(3) Is some Base FL|FC|FR|SL|SR content from the BD "post processed" and sent to the Front Left|Right wide (FLw|FRw) Main Layer speakers, "somewhat like *** Neo:X processing?" (I think the answer here is "NO".)

Anyone have any insight?


And of course the interesting question is: Will DTS-UHD perform the same tasks in a similar manner?
_
I think that most or all of these Atmos tracks would follow the Atmos cinema mix, according to the bit of data in the new white paper and the diagram of the cinema data file ingestion schema laid out and reports from Dolby's newest press demo. That would be a 7.1 or 9.1 bed with spatially coded objects+metadata (approximating however many objects were used originally).

So, any Blu-ray Atmos track could theoretically work with a full 24.1.10 system just fine. A 5.1 "optimized" track might mean the mix has been modified in some way as to not contain back surround channel beds, but objects could still be panned to those speakers (if you happened to have them). Since no cinema mix, that I'm aware of, has 5.1 beds I don't think that would be a common occurrence on a disc-based medium.

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Last edited by Dan Hitchman; 08-12-2014 at 11:06 AM.
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post #183 of 213 Old 08-12-2014, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post
This is where the confusion lies for me.
If Atmos was fully object based, this seems center wides would be support in the mapping of sound.
So from this, I conclude it is a hybrid.


- Rich
Always has been. Its foundation is 7.1 or 9.1 channels (7.1 plus top surrounds) with objects added to it. Certain speaker locations can only be addressed by object metadata. If an object is fixed in space by those instructions, it can practically be called a channel, for lack of a better term.

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Last edited by Dan Hitchman; 08-12-2014 at 11:04 AM.
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post #184 of 213 Old 08-12-2014, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post
So from this, I conclude it is a hybrid.
Yes, has been described this way from when it was introduced over 2 years ago.

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post #185 of 213 Old 08-12-2014, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
Always has been. Its foundation is 7.1 or 9.1 channels (7.1 plus top surrounds) with objects added to it. Certain speaker locations can only be addressed by object metadata. If an object is fixed in space by those instructions, it can practically be called a channel, for lack of a better term.
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Yes, has been described this way from when it was introduced over 2 years ago.
Someone should tell Dolby:


http://blog.dolby.com/2014/06/dolby-...ions-answered/


How is Dolby Atmos different than typical channel-based home theater systems?
Dolby Atmos is the first home theater system that is based not on channels, but on audio objects. What is an audio object? Any sound heard in a movie scene—a child yelling, a helicopter taking off, a car horn blaring—is an audio object. Filmmakers using Dolby Atmos can decide exactly where those sounds should originate and precisely where they move as the scene develops.
Thinking about sound in this way eliminates many of the limitations of channel-based audio. In a channel-based system, filmmakers have to think about the speaker setup: Should this sound come from the left rear surrounds or the left side surrounds? With Dolby Atmos, filmmakers just have to think about the story: Where is that yelling child going to run? The Dolby Atmos system, whether in the cinema or a home theater, has the intelligence to determine what speakers to use to precisely recreate the child’s movement in the way the filmmakers intend.
Dolby Atmos is also far more flexible and adaptable than channel-based home theater. In a channel-based system with channel-based content, the number of speakers is fixed—a 7.1 system always consists of seven speakers and one subwoofer. With Dolby Atmos, in contrast, you have amazing flexibility: you can get the full experience with just seven speakers or get an even richer, more detailed sound by adding more speakers. As you add speakers, a Dolby Atmos enabled receiver will automatically determine how to use them to create fantastic, immersive audio.


There is an impression created here that seems to be pushing it.
I am sure a lawyer would tell me right-front speaker is now an object and not a channel.

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post #186 of 213 Old 08-12-2014, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post
Someone should tell Dolby:


http://blog.dolby.com/2014/06/dolby-...ions-answered/


How is Dolby Atmos different than typical channel-based home theater systems?
Dolby Atmos is the first home theater system that is based not on channels, but on audio objects. What is an audio object? Any sound heard in a movie scene—a child yelling, a helicopter taking off, a car horn blaring—is an audio object. Filmmakers using Dolby Atmos can decide exactly where those sounds should originate and precisely where they move as the scene develops.
Thinking about sound in this way eliminates many of the limitations of channel-based audio. In a channel-based system, filmmakers have to think about the speaker setup: Should this sound come from the left rear surrounds or the left side surrounds? With Dolby Atmos, filmmakers just have to think about the story: Where is that yelling child going to run? The Dolby Atmos system, whether in the cinema or a home theater, has the intelligence to determine what speakers to use to precisely recreate the child’s movement in the way the filmmakers intend.
Dolby Atmos is also far more flexible and adaptable than channel-based home theater. In a channel-based system with channel-based content, the number of speakers is fixed—a 7.1 system always consists of seven speakers and one subwoofer. With Dolby Atmos, in contrast, you have amazing flexibility: you can get the full experience with just seven speakers or get an even richer, more detailed sound by adding more speakers. As you add speakers, a Dolby Atmos enabled receiver will automatically determine how to use them to create fantastic, immersive audio.


There is an impression created here that seems to be pushing it.


- Rich
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post #187 of 213 Old 08-12-2014, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post
Someone should tell Dolby:
They told us back in April of 2012:

"Dolby Atmos introduces a hybrid approach to mixing and directs sound as dynamic objects that envelop the listener, in combination with channels for playback. Dolby Atmos enables adaptive rendering to ensure that the playback experience is as close as possible to the creator's original vision in any given environment, irrespective of the specific speaker configuration in the playback environment."

http://investor.dolby.com/releasedet...leaseID=666401
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post
I am sure a lawyer would tell me right-front speaker is now an object and not a channel.
We had this exact discussion about semantics at the Atmos presser yesterday. In their mind, it's all objects. They think of channels as objects that don't go anywhere. By their logic, objects pre-date Atmos because mixing was done using individual pieces of sound, but with constraints on location (which channel or channels). In their view, these individual sounds were always objects, Atmos just freed up their movement and added a vertical dimension.

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post #188 of 213 Old 08-12-2014, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
I don't think Atmos sound tracks will be coded that way and I don't think manufacturers would implement Atmos software decoding without object rendering.. If some Dolby TrueHD track is 9.1 discrete (using the extra substream for two channels rather than channels + objects or just objects), I don't think they'll label it as an Atmos track. Atmos means that objects are somehow involved.
My point is that if you have an Atmos track with a 9.1 base, and your decoder outputs 9.1, then the objects don't add anything. (I'm assuming that objects are included in the height channels, as they are in the others. It's quite possible they are not). Such a decoder might not be branded Atmos, but it will still give you 2 height channels when present.

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post #189 of 213 Old 08-12-2014, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
They told us back in April of 2012:
We had this exact discussion about semantics at the Atmos presser yesterday. In their mind, it's all objects. They think of channels as objects that don't go anywhere. By their logic, objects pre-date Atmos because mixing was done using individual pieces of sound, but with constraints on location (which channel or channels). In their view, these individual sounds were always objects, Atmos just freed up their movement and added a vertical dimension.

By that logic DTS-MA is Fixed Object based


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post #190 of 213 Old 08-12-2014, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Luke M View Post
(I'm assuming that objects are included in the height channels, as they are in the others. It's quite possible they are not).
Objects aren't in any channels. They will be output by all speakers, but they are not part of the channel beds.

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post #191 of 213 Old 08-12-2014, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post
By that logic DTS-MA is Fixed Object based
DTS-MA is lossless compressions.

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post #192 of 213 Old 08-12-2014, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
DTS-MA is lossless compressions.

DTS-MA can be used to deliver 5.1, 6.1, and 7.1 audio channels.
According to Dolby from post #187 , these can now be called objects that don't go anywhere

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post #193 of 213 Old 08-12-2014, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post
DTS-MA can be used to deliver 5.1, 6.1, and 7.1 audio channels.
DTS-MA is a lossless data packing algorithm, has nothing to do with channels or objects.
Scott Simonian likes this.

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post #194 of 213 Old 08-12-2014, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
DTS-MA is a lossless data packing algorithm, has nothing to do with channels or objects.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DTS_(so...D_Master_Audio

Quote:
DTS-HD Master Audio

DTS-HD Master Audio, previously known as DTS++,[5] is the second of two DTS-HD audio formats.[6] It supports a virtually unlimited number of surround sound channels, can downmix to 5.1 and two-channel, and can deliver audio quality at bit rates extending from DTS Digital Surround up to lossless (24-bit, 192 kHz).

DTS-HD Master Audio is selected as an optional surround sound format for Blu-ray and HD DVD, where it has been limited to a maximum of 8 discrete channels. DTS-HD MA supports variable bit rates up to 24.5 Mbit/s on a Blu-ray Disc and up to 18.0 Mbit/s for HD DVD, with up to 6 channels encoded at up to 192 kHz or 8 channels encoded at 96 kHz/24 bit. If more than two channels are used, a "channel remapping" function allows for remixing the soundtrack to compensate for a different channel layout in the playback system compared to the original mix.

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post #195 of 213 Old 08-12-2014, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Got clarification from Dolby today: the substream that carries the objects can also carry the two height beds IF those channels were used in the original mix, which isn't always the case (some Atmos mixes are 7.1 + objects). So the 4th substream isn't limited to objects. Like the other 3 substreams, it can carry channels as well.

Sanjay, thanks yet again for posting such interesting info. To summarize:
1. Commercial cinema Atmos: 7.1 bed channels or 9.1 bed channels + objects. With 9.1, there is height info in 2 of the 9.1 bed channels.
2. Home theater Atmos on Blu-ray: 7.1 bed channels or 9.1 bed channels (matching the cinema mix) + objects. Same as above: with 9.1, there is height info in 2 of the 9.1 bed channels. The 4th substream carries both channel and object info.

As commercial theaters produce height bed channels in the 2 overhead arrays, this seems to *imply* that in a home Atmos system of 7.1.4 speakers (not channel), the 4 ceiling speakers would best be the 4 yellow dots in the diagram you posted a while ago, if one is to duplicate the Atmos intended setup/mix as close as possible?


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post #196 of 213 Old 08-12-2014, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post
OMG, you don't understand what DTS-MA is.

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post #197 of 213 Old 08-12-2014, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by cannga View Post
As commercial theaters produce height bed channels in the 2 overhead arrays, this seems to *imply* that in a home Atmos system of 7.1.4 speakers (not channel), the 4 ceiling speakers would best be the 4 yellow dots in the diagram you posted a while ago, if one is to duplicate the Atmos intended setup/mix as close as possible?
Only if one is limited to 4 height speakers. Otherwise, you can do all the speakers in the diagram in order to have L/R height arrays.

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post #198 of 213 Old 08-12-2014, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
...Dolby is scheduled to have an announcement in the next two weeks that should give more details about content, among other things...
From what I heard yesterday, the next MAJOR announcement will be at CEDIA Expo in Denver which means that the announcement will be on the "Press Day", 10-Sept, or during the course of the event from 11-Sept to 13-Sept. There are two more events this week (NY and SF) that will presumably cover the same ground as yesterday's Burbank event but perhaps some additional things will be said or perhaps those folks will ask things that just didn't occur to us to ask yesterday. I'm guessing that there will also be an event at IFA, but CEDIA Expo seems to be the target for revealing what's to come with regard to content delivery and availability.

FWIW, Dolby will also have a major presence on the Expo show floor and I presume that Scott and others will bring news from that. There will also be a very interesting CEDIA panel session http://expo.cedia.net/news-media/med...hought-leaders with Brett from Dolby, someone from Auro, Andrew Jones, and to keep things interesting, the always incredibly knowledgeable Dr. Floyd Toole. THAT is something we'll want to hear about.

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post #199 of 213 Old 08-12-2014, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
OMG, you don't understand what DTS-MA is.
Sure I do

Here is a DTS white paper:

http://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_ts/...14v010401p.pdf

Quote:
3.0 DTS Core Plus Extension Data Structure


Fundamental to the original DTS Coherent Acoustics system is the core + extension architecture, shown below. It
is this structure that ensures full backward compatibility with all decoders, no matter the enhancement, present, or
future. Simply stated, the core contains the Coherent Acoustics 5.1-channel 44.1 or 48 kHz data stream, which any

DTS decoder can process. Extensions to the core contain other data: additional channels, data for higher sampling
rates or enhancements not yet devised. All decoders make use of the core. Advanced decoders make use of the core
plus the extension data, which is simply ignored by decoders that cannot use it. Current extensions to the DTS core
decoder include DTS-ES and DTS 96/24. DTS-HD Audio adds new extensions to the DTS core, specifically DTS-HD
High Resolution Audio and DTS-HD Master Audio, which offer substantially improved audio quality and new features.
Feel free to correct the white papers and Wiki's to remove the references to channels.

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post #200 of 213 Old 08-12-2014, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post
Sure I do
It is obvious you don't because you are forced to resort to cutting and pasting other people's words rather than explaining it yourself. Your lack of understanding completely explains your earlier non sequitur:
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By that logic DTS-MA is Fixed Object based

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post #201 of 213 Old 08-12-2014, 07:54 PM
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PCM = the stuff with channels of content

DTS-MA = the Christmas wrapping for said content


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post #202 of 213 Old 08-12-2014, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by 2MuchHT View Post
From what I heard yesterday, the next MAJOR announcement will be at CEDIA Expo in Denver which means that the announcement will be on the "Press Day", 10-Sept, or during the course of the event from 11-Sept to 13-Sept. There are two more events this week (NY and SF) that will presumably cover the same ground as yesterday's Burbank event but perhaps some additional things will be said or perhaps those folks will ask things that just didn't occur to us to ask yesterday. I'm guessing that there will also be an event at IFA, but CEDIA Expo seems to be the target for revealing what's to come with regard to content delivery and availability.

FWIW, Dolby will also have a major presence on the Expo show floor and I presume that Scott and others will bring news from that. There will also be a very interesting CEDIA panel session http://expo.cedia.net/news-media/med...hought-leaders with Brett from Dolby, someone from Auro, Andrew Jones, and to keep things interesting, the always incredibly knowledgeable Dr. Floyd Toole. THAT is something we'll want to hear about.
I think you missed my follow up post where I updated the time table.

Quote:
Dolby made it very clear today that they are going to put very specific information out (about up firing speaker requirements, detailed setup instructions, etc) in tech papers/releases starting around CEDIA.

There were no content announcements, and they stated they wouldn't be making any such statements, but would let the content providers do so at their discretion.
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post #203 of 213 Old 08-12-2014, 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
It is obvious you don't because you are forced to resort to cutting and pasting other people's words rather than explaining it yourself. Your lack of understanding completely explains your earlier non sequitur:

Anyway all your post in response have been without explanation.


You said it was not channel based. I had hoped to supply evidence that that was incorrect.
Perhaps your advice is well intended, but I don't think so.




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post #204 of 213 Old 08-12-2014, 09:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
... In their mind, it's all objects. They think of channels as objects that don't go anywhere. By their logic, objects pre-date Atmos because mixing was done using individual pieces of sound, but with constraints on location (which channel or channels). In their view, these individual sounds were always objects, Atmos just freed up their movement and added a vertical dimension.
And that's the main key.
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post #205 of 213 Old 08-12-2014, 09:58 PM
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Anyway all your post in response have been without explanation.
What wasn't explained?
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You said it was not channel based.
I figured you would attempt to attribute that to me, so I covered myself (in every sentence) by repeatedly pointing out that it was Dolby's view:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
In their mind, it's all objects. They think of channels as objects that don't go anywhere. By their logic, objects pre-date Atmos because mixing was done using individual pieces of sound, but with constraints on location (which channel or channels). In their view, these individual sounds were always objects, Atmos just freed up their movement and added a vertical dimension.

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post #206 of 213 Old 08-12-2014, 10:17 PM
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I think you missed my follow up post where I updated the time table.
I guess I did miss that. Sorry, my apologies on that. As Ed McMahon used to say to Johnny: "You are CORRECT, Sir!"

However, couldn't miss an opportunity to mention the CEDIA Expo panel as it sounds as though it will be very informative. For those who are going to Denver, register now for that session. You won't regret it.
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post #207 of 213 Old 08-14-2014, 10:54 AM
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Interesting article on why Dolby may focus on headphones vs our theaters: http://celluloidjunkie.com/2014/02/2...om-headphones/
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post #208 of 213 Old 11-28-2014, 12:29 AM
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Thanks for these. I've just spent a bit of time working through - looks like the best Atmos information on the web!
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post #209 of 213 Old 11-28-2014, 01:58 AM
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a whole lot of skepticism here. But really; there's just another layer of sound overhead so how can it not be beneficial? I am building a new house right now and as most/many will be looking at in-walls/in-ceilings then it really does seem like a no-brainer to at least chuck a few extra cables in the ceiling for if/when they're needed. Hearing people who have tested it (eg Andrew Jones) have convinced me the atmospheric sound is brilliant; like rainfall in The Life Of Pi, and birds chirping overhead in a forest.

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post #210 of 213 Old 11-28-2014, 02:18 AM
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Originally Posted by browneaction View Post
a whole lot of skepticism here. But really; there's just another layer of sound overhead so how can it not be beneficial? I am building a new house right now and as most/many will be looking at in-walls/in-ceilings then it really does seem like a no-brainer to at least chuck a few extra cables in the ceiling for if/when they're needed. Hearing people who have tested it (eg Andrew Jones) have convinced me the atmospheric sound is brilliant; like rainfall in The Life Of Pi, and birds chirping overhead in a forest.
Depending on the mix, some of the music score can get steered to the overheads as well as dialog and, yes, sound effects.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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