Dolby Demos Atmos for Cinema and Home - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 530 Old 08-27-2014, 01:41 PM
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Doing a A/B comparison in a good setup between 7.1 Dolby True HD playback vs Dolby Atmos configured as a 7.1.2/7.1.4 with varied film material would be a good test to evaluate the value of all this.

IMHO the journalistic write ups seems to make use of the same Dolby demo material over and over again which just doesn't elicit much faith that there is that much difference in real life.
The reason they are using the same material is rights and Intellectual Property issues. You can't just take any Bluray you like and play it to any audience you like - you need to have the consent of the copyright and rights owners. And as there are no Bluray Atmos discs yet, all the content used at the demos has had to be specially licensed. This is why I was asked by Dolby to withdraw the names of the unauthorized tracks, used by mistake at the first London demo, from my initial report.
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post #362 of 530 Old 08-28-2014, 04:21 AM
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If you don't want your bias called out, then you need to stop doing things like the following: The NY demo mentioned in this article happened at a regional Audio Engineering Society meeting on November 26th of last year, a full 9 months ago, where AES members got a demo of the commercial version of Atmos.

The article itself is dated 5 weeks prior to the NY demo of consumer Atmos being discussed in this thread, leaving the author speculating (negatively, of course) about its prospects.

Why didn't you know any of this? Was seeing the author refer to Atmos as the audio equivalent of consumer 3D TV and say it's not ready for prime time enough for you to hastily post a link, implying it had to do with the NY demo? You really can't stop yourself, can you.
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/new...ar-laff-339193

I'm still laughing at this,

"For exhibitors, Dolby estimated that an "average(No, small) mid-size" cinema auditorium could expect to make an investment of around $25,000-$30,000 for this (ATMOS)upgrade."

The CP850 is 30K alone, plus the speaker price, plus amps, etc north of 120K for a "average" cinema.

And the payoff is never certain: Some observers contend that a generation has already been trained to be content with the small screen.
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post #363 of 530 Old 08-28-2014, 04:29 AM
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The reason they are using the same material is rights and Intellectual Property issues. You can't just take any Bluray you like and play it to any audience you like.
Unless it plainly states not for public display. Those wonderful lawyers added this to prevent libraries and other not for profit groups from displaying to large audiences, who the studios perceive as potential customers. But, it's displayed OTA for free, a few years later than BD.

So has the information for the "first" Atmos BD been released yet?

And the payoff is never certain: Some observers contend that a generation has already been trained to be content with the small screen.
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post #364 of 530 Old 08-28-2014, 06:04 AM
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Unless it plainly states not for public display. Those wonderful lawyers added this to prevent libraries and other not for profit groups from displaying to large audiences, who the studios perceive as potential customers. But, it's displayed OTA for free, a few years later than BD.
Dolby's problem was that they had been licensed to use various clips for their development of Atmos but not licensed to show those clips to anyone outside Dolby. That's why Dolb yasked me to remove all references to the clips from my initial review.

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So has the information for the "first" Atmos BD been released yet?
No - it won't be released until CEDIA, according to Dolby. I think we could make an educated guess at what the first movie release on Atmos BD will be though...
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post #365 of 530 Old 08-28-2014, 08:15 AM
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Dolby's problem was that they had been licensed to use various clips for their development of Atmos but not licensed to show those clips to anyone outside Dolby. That's why Dolb yasked me to remove all references to the clips from my initial review.



No - it won't be released until CEDIA, according to Dolby. I think we could make an educated guess at what the first movie release on Atmos BD will be though...
I don't think we can. It might be a surprise... you just never know. I hope that these demos will actually use a couple retail Atmos Blu-ray's instead of the same less than stellar movie clip they've reportedly shown since they pulled the "unmentionable" one.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #366 of 530 Old 08-28-2014, 08:23 AM
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I don't think we can. It might be a surprise... you just never know.


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I hope that these demos will actually use a couple retail Atmos Blu-ray's instead of the same less than stellar movie clip they've reportedly shown since they pulled the "unmentionable" one.
I'm not sure if they could legally just use a regular retail BD disc at a public demonstration where they are effectively selling their product. I can ask Mrs Keith - she's an expert on Patent Law and IP.

I agree that STID wasn't a brilliant choice for a demo. The two unmentionables I heard the first time around were way better.
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post #367 of 530 Old 08-28-2014, 08:28 AM
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I'm not sure if they could legally just use a regular retail BD disc at a public demonstration where they are effectively selling their product. I can ask Mrs Keith - she's an expert on Patent Law and IP.

I agree that STID wasn't a brilliant choice for a demo. The two unmentionables I heard the first time around were way better.
Retail electronics stores would all be sued because they demo movies and concerts all the time for their potential customers. At the very least a good Dolby Atmos demo disc with good (and licensed) clips from upcoming titles should be released as "swag" and retail demo discs. That would give the exhibitors something to play at least.

You would think Dolby would have spent the time securing rights like this, so they'd be ready to rock come Atmos' debut. DTS used to put out really great show-off clip discs.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #368 of 530 Old 08-28-2014, 08:38 AM
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Retail electronics stores would all be sued because they demo movies and concerts all the time for their potential customers.
Good point. Although just because they do it doesn’t mean it's legal I had a hell of a job once to convince a client that he needed to pay royalties for the tune to "Happy Birthday to you" if he wanted to include it in a TV commercial. Your point will be right though if the license is restricted to charging customers for entry. Although, HST, it is illegal to play a Bluray or DVD to, for example, workers on an offshore oil rig, or prisoners in jail, unless you have paid for the performing rights, and clearly they haven't paid to get in, LOL. The IP licensing rules are incredibly complex, which is how people like Mrs Keith can make a very good living charging people for her understanding of them. Just because you can have a performing rights license to play the movie to your workers or inmates, doesn't necessarily mean that Dolby or anyone else have a right to play it to journalists - as is evidenced by the fact they they, well, didn't, and had to withdraw the demo material they had been using.


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At the very least a good Dolby Atmos demo disc with good (and licensed) clips from upcoming titles should be released as "swag" and retail demo discs. That would give the exhibitors something to play at least.
Couldn’t agree more. I'd like to see something like the DTS demo discs that are released every year - with a nice selection of short clips which showcase the sound.

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You would think Dolby would have spent the time securing rights like this, so they'd be ready to rock come Atmos' debut. DTS used to put out really great show-off clip discs.
The fact that Dolby inadvertently used unlicensed clips in London shows how complex it can be. I am sure they believed they were allowed the use of the content for their purpose, but clearly they weren't. Nobody guards their content and IP more closely than Hollywood. We have seen their tentacles spread into the sometimes ludicrous (IMO) restrictions and hardware preventatives they insist go into AV equipment, for example.
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post #369 of 530 Old 08-28-2014, 08:43 AM
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Good point. Although just because they do it doesn’t mean it's legal I had a hell of a job once to convince a client that he needed to pay royalties for the tune to "Happy Birthday to you" if he wanted to include it in a TV commercial. Your point will be right though if the license is restricted to charging customers for entry. Although, HST, it is illegal to play a Bluray or DVD to, for example, workers on an offshore oil rig, or prisoners in jail, unless you have paid for the performing rights, and clearly they haven't paid to get in, LOL. The IP licensing rules are incredibly complex, which is how people like Mrs Keith can make a very good living charging people for her understanding of them. Just because you can have a performing rights license to play the movie to your workers or inmates, doesn't necessarily mean that Dolby or anyone else have a right to play it to journalists - as is evidenced by the fact they they, well, didn't, and had to withdraw the demo material they had been using.




Couldn’t agree more. I'd like to see something like the DTS demo discs that are released every year - with a nice selection of short clips which showcase the sound.



The fact that Dolby inadvertently used unlicensed clips in London shows how complex it can be. I am sure they believed they were allowed the use of the content for their purpose, but clearly they weren't. Nobody guards their content and IP more closely than Hollywood. We have seen their tentacles spread into the sometimes ludicrous (IMO) restrictions and hardware preventatives they insist go into AV equipment, for example.

[Shakes fist in the air] Hollywood lawyers!!!!

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #370 of 530 Old 08-28-2014, 08:48 AM
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[Shakes fist in the air] Hollywood lawyers!!!!
Hey - don't knock it. I'm married to one! LOL. Well, not a Hollywood one, but I'm sure she'd love to be included.
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post #371 of 530 Old 08-28-2014, 09:09 AM
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The fact that Dolby inadvertently used unlicensed clips in London shows how complex it can be. I am sure they believed they were allowed the use of the content for their purpose, but clearly they weren't. Nobody guards their content and IP more closely than Hollywood. We have seen their tentacles spread into the sometimes ludicrous (IMO) restrictions and hardware preventatives they insist go into AV equipment, for example.
IMHO, Dolby Marketing lacks a degree of sophistication (and/or budget) which isn't that unusual for engineering oriented companies.

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post #372 of 530 Old 08-28-2014, 09:34 AM
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Hey - don't knock it. I'm married to one! LOL. Well, not a Hollywood one, but I'm sure she'd love to be included.
Hollywood lawyers, in my book, are no better than ambulance chasers. The more they get involved, the worse things get for consumers. Everything becomes more draconian in nature and far less user friendly... and more expensive.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #373 of 530 Old 08-28-2014, 10:24 AM
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Hollywood lawyers, in my book, are no better than ambulance chasers. The more they get involved, the worse things get for consumers. Everything becomes more draconian in nature and far less user friendly... and more expensive.
You wouldn't say that if people were stealing your intellectual property every day, I bet
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post #374 of 530 Old 08-28-2014, 11:48 AM
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You wouldn't say that if people were stealing your intellectual property every day, I bet
Veering very far off topic.

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post #376 of 530 Old 08-28-2014, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by CinemaAndy View Post
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/new...ar-laff-339193

I'm still laughing at this,

"For exhibitors, Dolby estimated that an "average(No, small) mid-size" cinema auditorium could expect to make an investment of around $25,000-$30,000 for this (ATMOS)upgrade."

The CP850 is 30K alone, plus the speaker price, plus amps, etc north of 120K for a "average" cinema.
As I understand it, $30K is the list price for CP850. Nobody actually pays that much. The total prices for integrated systems are always negotiated. The individual line items show list prices, but then a substantial allowance (discount) is applied to the whole package. But still, it does seem to be abnormally low for an upgrade of an entire speaker system.

Disclaimer: My comments are based on experiences when negotiating the purchase of large computer systems for a research lab, not audio for commercial theaters.

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post #377 of 530 Old 08-30-2014, 02:18 PM
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As I understand it, $30K is the list price for CP850. Nobody actually pays that much. The total prices for integrated systems are always negotiated. The individual line items show list prices, but then a substantial allowance (discount) is applied to the whole package. But still, it does seem to be abnormally low for an upgrade of an entire speaker system.

Disclaimer: My comments are based on experiences when negotiating the purchase of large computer systems for a research lab, not audio for commercial theaters.
I build commercial theatres, as well as remodel/update them for a living. So i have some knowledge here. Dolby, like any company, has to have a return on investment. I have yet to talk to anyone, who has acquired a $15K Dolby CP850 cinema audio processor. I can't give the information out, but i will say the lowest price i have seen for a 850 was for a large international chain, and that it was less than $30K and more than $20K. It is a expensive piece of equipment, just by itself. It is one piece of the puzzle, and i have seen that puzzle exceed $1 million for a sound system revamp.

And the payoff is never certain: Some observers contend that a generation has already been trained to be content with the small screen.
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post #378 of 530 Old 08-30-2014, 07:32 PM
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I see these surround speakers with integrated heights as a necessity to get Atmos off the ground with consumers as less speakers to mount, the easier to sell the Atmos package..

But I imagine the enthusiasts here will see past these unconventional 2-in-1 speakers and move to individual height speakers the bigger output, grater extension and will put up with more speakers in their theater.... Just like the cinemas do.. If these 'integrated, limited range speakers' were so great. commercial theaters would use them.

I mean why try and fake a sound by bouncing it off the ceiling when you can simply put the speaker on the ceiling and, thus, make the sound directly that you're trying to bounce from below? Isn't this what's happening in the ceiling?

At least that's my logic..

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post #379 of 530 Old 08-30-2014, 08:07 PM
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I see these surround speakers with integrated heights as a necessity to get Atmos off the ground with consumers as less speakers to mount, the easier to sell the Atmos package..

But I imagine the enthusiasts here will see past these unconventional 2-in-1 speakers and move to individual height speakers the bigger output, grater extension and will put up with more speakers in their theater.... Just like the cinemas do.. If these 'integrated, limited range speakers' were so great. commercial theaters would use them.

I mean why try and fake a sound by bouncing it off the ceiling when you can simply put the speaker on the ceiling and, thus, make the sound directly that you're trying to bounce from below? Isn't this what's happening in the ceiling?

At least that's my logic..
What world are you living in?

Not everyone has the resources to do this, nor the ability (i.e. a dedicated room purpose built..) like you do..

I, for one, don't.. and I'm thrilled to have an option (which, as I've stated in the past) is highly satisfactory...

Without the Elevation technology, the market for Home Atmos would shrink to almost nil..
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What world are you living in?

Not everyone has the resources to do this, nor the ability (i.e. a dedicated room purpose built..) like you do..

I, for one, don't.. and I'm thrilled to have an option (which, as I've stated in the past) is highly satisfactory...

Without the Elevation technology, the market for Home Atmos would shrink to almost nil..
I'm living in the enthusiast world of AVS!! And I'm not alone

If the industry gives us a standard way to enjoy a format, we look for better.

Standard subs extend to 30 Hz... But many here shoot for 10 Hz. This is an enthusiasts forum as you know, so we are looking for better. This is a hobby.

I'm not doubting the need for these types of speakers, I'm just saying many here will look for a way to improve on them and milk the most our of Atmos.t
Look at Trinnov... The first Atmos SSP STARTING AT $30K and up to 32 channels of Atmos!

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post #381 of 530 Old 08-30-2014, 09:28 PM
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What world are you living in?

Not everyone has the resources to do this, nor the ability (i.e. a dedicated room purpose built..) like you do..

I, for one, don't.. and I'm thrilled to have an option (which, as I've stated in the past) is highly satisfactory...

Without the Elevation technology, the market for Home Atmos would shrink to almost nil..

What I would like to know (and right now it's an unknown unless people in the industry already are aware of an answer) is if these Atmos "enabled" speakers will be one-trick ponies with height drivers that only work with Dolby Atmos and Dolby Surround, leaving the height drivers silent or ineffective for any track encoded with DTS-UHD or Auro3D (if one or both comes to market).

If they only work with a Dolby invented DSP "trick," would they give this secret sauce to DTS and allow them to use it as well for these Dolby speakers? Otherwise, there might be some really ticked off customers who bought into these specialized speakers to have them work correctly with certain Dolby formats only.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #382 of 530 Old 08-30-2014, 09:47 PM
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What I would like to know (and right now it's an unknown unless people in the industry already are aware of an answer) is if these Atmos "enabled" speakers will be one-trick ponies with height drivers that only work with Dolby Atmos and Dolby Surround, leaving the height drivers silent or ineffective for any track encoded with DTS-UHD or Auro3D (if one or both comes to market).

If they only work with a Dolby invented DSP "trick," would they give this secret sauce to DTS and allow them to use it as well for these Dolby speakers? Otherwise, there might be some really ticked off customers who bought into these specialized speakers to have them work correctly with certain Dolby formats only.
Dan.. seriously, what do you think Dolby will do in this situation?

Why would you expect a speaker labeled "Dolby Atmos" to work with a competing format?

Again, this isn't just the idea of firing a speaker off the ceiling.. there is a lot of R and D that went into the technology and a bit of processing to make these work...

I don't think there are any secrets waiting to be reveled.
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Dan.. seriously, what do you think Dolby will do in this situation?

Why would you expect a speaker labeled "Dolby Atmos" to work with a competing format?

Again, this isn't just the idea of firing a speaker off the ceiling.. there is a lot of R and D that went into the technology and a bit of processing to make these work...

I don't think there are any secrets waiting to be reveled.
Then, sadly, there is little reason for consumers to go out and purchase these Atmos enabled speakers. Even though they work, to me it sounds like they would now be an absolute waste of money unless no other competing object format ever popped up or they actually did end up working with more than Dolby audio products. Do you seriously think that people are now going to go buy Dolby specific speakers and DTS specific speakers and Auro specific speakers??

This is probably one big reason why the SMPTE wanted these formats to play nicely together. If your supposition is true then this new audio "evolution" will probably be still born to the general consumer base and it will be a disaster for enthusiasts who can and will put speakers on their ceiling (like me) to enjoy these fantastic immersive audio tracks. Just because Dolby execs wanted to act like children and not share the least important aspect of object surround delivery, so a speaker would work correctly over different platforms.

Do you see my point?

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!

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Then, sadly, there is little reason for consumers to go out and purchase these Atmos enabled speakers. Even though they work, to me it sounds like they would now be an absolute waste of money unless no other competing object format ever popped up or they actually did end up working with more than Dolby audio products. Do you seriously think that people are now going to go buy Dolby specific speakers and DTS specific speakers and Auro specific speakers??

This is probably one big reason why the SMPTE wanted these formats to play nicely together. If your supposition is true then this new audio "evolution" will be still born to the general consumer base and it will be a disaster for enthusiasts who can and will put speakers on their ceiling (like me).

Do you see my point?
You are totally confusing the issue...

There's one huge reason to go out and buy these speakers..... Atmos (and DS.)

Why isn't that a good enough one...

What SMPTE is doing has nothing to do with Dolby Enabled speakers...

How does a Dolby enabled speaker that works for Dolby Atmos and Dolby Surround exclusively make the format itself "still born?"

Right now there is one object based format for the home, and to date there are exactly zero titles released in any other for the cinema.

And how exactly will it be a disaster for people who install ceiling speakers?

What you clearly stated was that Dolby could limit the use of Dolby Enabled speakers..

I think that will be the case.

If DTS and Aruo want to reproduce overhead sounds for those without ceiling speakers, they should spend the resources to invent their own solution.... and of course I don't think people will want to install three sets of speakers for each format, but that's not anti consumer on Dolby's part, it's their format, and they are first to market... and they offered a pretty fantastic solution IMO.

If DTS-UHD had beat them to market without such a solution, how much do you think it would've limited their initial consumer base? And if in or on ceiling overheads were a requirement for UHD (which I can't see happening as it's speaker agnostic according to the limited information so far) I think you'd see a bit of consumer backlash...

How would Dolby exactly limit the use of a discrete in ceiling speaker to a user or AVR manufacturer? That makes no sense...

You do understand there is a difference between the two speaker types, right? One is specifically labeled as a "Dolby" speaker in the AVR, the other as "Top" or "Ceiling..."
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Last edited by FilmMixer; 08-30-2014 at 10:31 PM. Reason: added comments.
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post #385 of 530 Old 08-30-2014, 10:32 PM
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That is what is so cool about Dolby Atmos Cinema @ home; everyone can reap the benefits, poor and rich. ...No distinction, just pure entertainment for everyone.

Good move Dolby, my hat high up elevated to you. /// Sky's the limit, and same for the poor and same for the rich; we'll all end up @ the same place anyway, up in the air somehow, in distributed objects, ashes, in the space, underground, surrounded, everywhere in the universe...

We are alive now, the light is still on, the fire's still burning, and with it all we stand tall.
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post #386 of 530 Old 08-30-2014, 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
What I would like to know (and right now it's an unknown unless people in the industry already are aware of an answer) is if these Atmos "enabled" speakers will be one-trick ponies with height drivers that only work with Dolby Atmos and Dolby Surround, leaving the height drivers silent or ineffective for any track encoded with DTS-UHD or Auro3D (if one or both comes to market).

If they only work with a Dolby invented DSP "trick," would they give this secret sauce to DTS and allow them to use it as well for these Dolby speakers? Otherwise, there might be some really ticked off customers who bought into these specialized speakers to have them work correctly with certain Dolby formats only.
Dan, you are one of my favorite members here. ...Marc too.

Look @ Dolby & dts since the beginning of times; they always worked side by side in all our audio components.
The competition @ times was fierce, but they always both succeeded @ the end to complement each other.

Dolby Atmos is the upper elevation working with Dolby TrueHD, dts Neo:X and DTS-HD MA are still here, Dolby Pro Logic, PLII, PLIIx, PLIIz are now gone and have been replaced by a superior surround sound audio factor; Dolby Surround (the "Exterminator", the "Terminator", "Arnold the Upmixer"). /// Talk about something truly spatial.
Right now you can use that new Dolby Surround superimposed over DTS-HD MA 7.1 surround soundtracks from Blu-ray titles (movies, music, docs, ...); and who knows what's coming next that we didn't hear about yet...

I am extremely optimistic, and supremely happy to be living now because I got to experience something real cool @ home in the now & here. ...From there I just keep living life like always; one day @ a time. ...And with a smile on my face, and in my ears.

Last edited by NorthSky; 08-30-2014 at 11:07 PM. Reason: In the Now
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post #387 of 530 Old 08-30-2014, 11:24 PM
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You are totally confusing the issue...

There's one huge reason to go out and buy these speakers..... Atmos (and DS.)

Why isn't that a good enough one...

What SMPTE is doing has nothing to do with Dolby Enabled speakers...

How does a Dolby enabled speaker that works for Dolby Atmos and Dolby Surround exclusively make the format itself "still born?"

Right now there is one object based format for the home, and to date there are exactly zero titles released in any other for the cinema.

And how exactly will it be a disaster for people who install ceiling speakers?

What you clearly stated was that Dolby could limit the use of Dolby Enabled speakers..

I think that will be the case.

If DTS and Aruo want to reproduce overhead sounds for those without ceiling speakers, they should spend the resources to invent their own solution.... and of course I don't think people will want to install three sets of speakers for each format, but that's not anti consumer on Dolby's part, it's their format, and they are first to market... and they offered a pretty fantastic solution IMO.

If DTS-UHD had beat them to market without such a solution, how much do you think it would've limited their initial consumer base? And if in or on ceiling overheads were a requirement for UHD (which I can't see happening as it's speaker agnostic according to the limited information so far) I think you'd see a bit of consumer backlash...

How would Dolby exactly limit the use of a discrete in ceiling speaker to a user or AVR manufacturer? That makes no sense...

You do understand there is a difference between the two speaker types, right? One is specifically labeled as a "Dolby" speaker in the AVR, the other as "Top" or "Ceiling..."
Yes, I do understand the difference between the two types of speakers.

As for the "enabled" speakers, why would anyone buy a speaker that would only work, in its entirety, for Dolby audio formats alone? In the history of speakers I can't think of a single time where an audio format and a speaker were exclusively tied to one another. Layout yes, speaker no. Only part of what makes these things work is in the design of the speaker itself, the other part is the Dolby "exclusive" audio trickery to enhance the illusion of height. For the sake of discussion, if what you're saying ends up being correct, I put in a disc that has any other format that uses height effects (sounds/dialog/music) like DTS-UHD or Auro3D, part of my expensive purchase just sits there silently or doesn't work as advertised.

And you would expect the lay person to be happy with that; the very people Dolby is trying to entice with these types of speakers? I know I would personally be furious. That then reflects negatively on Dolby and then Atmos (because, again, they don't know what we as hobbyists know - they're working on a much lower set of facts), which in turn hurts the adoption of said format for everyone. Yes, then the enthusiasts like you and me, get shafted in the process. Enough people don't buy into Atmos and the studios start thinking nobody cares, just like with 3D. It's the 'round robin psychology of consumer confidence, marketing, and sales. Atmos and object surround in and of itself, in this economic and technological climate (smaller and portable are supposed to be "better"), is already facing an uphill battle, unfortunately.

That's what I'm getting at.
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Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!

Last edited by Dan Hitchman; 08-30-2014 at 11:30 PM.
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post #388 of 530 Old 08-30-2014, 11:30 PM
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Dan, I get 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of all your posts.

That one above; I got a little bit less. ...Because we all are winners right now, and it can only get better.

* Is it also Saturday night in Colorado?

Last edited by NorthSky; 08-30-2014 at 11:33 PM.
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post #389 of 530 Old 08-30-2014, 11:34 PM
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Dan, I get 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of all your posts.

That one above; I got a little bit less. ...Because we all are winners right now, and it can only get better.
The enthusiasts like our small band on AVS and other audio forums, are winners right now. But the industry needs more than just we few, we happy few, we band of electronic brothers.

The industry doesn't need to piss off the other 95% with exclusivity when it comes to something like a speaker.

It's almost midnight here in Colorado... practically Sunday.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #390 of 530 Old 08-30-2014, 11:37 PM
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You're like me; you want everybody happy, not just us bunches @ audio/video forums of the WWW (World Wide Web).
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