Dolby Demos Atmos for Cinema and Home - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 530 Old 08-17-2014, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post
Will the design teams be coming to customers homes as well?
Why, do you want that level of inconsistency in your home theatre?
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post
The observations are valid, but cause(s) of those observations are theoretical.
The theoretical cause(s) are valid until someone comes up with a more plausible theory. You quoted Ralph saying that "the inconsistencies, at least in this case, appear to be related to differences in setup". Got a better theory? Let's hear it. Until then, I agree with Ralph.

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post #62 of 530 Old 08-17-2014, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Who wouldn't? Things don't always work out that way. But even that can be helpful. I have 13 Atmos cinemas with a 50-mile radius of my home. Having visited most of them I can tell you that no two sound alike. So I learned early on that Atmos is no magic bullet that will somehow make all cinemas the same.

The bi-coastal write-ups over the last few days are making it clear to readers that home Atmos is not going to re-write the physics of sound reproduction and be a magical cure-all for home theatre. And that's helpful in tempering expectations..

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Maybe there aren't. Seems apparent to me that this is being rushed to market. Looking at what home Atmos is capable of vs what manufacturers are implementing on 1st gen products, it feels more like a decoder swap: last year's models couldn't decode Atmos, this year's models can. Most everything else appears to be staying the same.

100% agree. It feels like they ran out of time and cut back on features. Atmos and object based audio should have more to offer than ceiling channels; FilmMixer hints that there is more to come.


If 2015 brings these advancements and requires new AVR's, that would rightfully upset early adopters.


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post #63 of 530 Old 08-17-2014, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph Potts View Post
Greetings,

I agree Rich regarding the observations and cause.

I am sure if you asked politely they would be happy to come out..


Regards,
I like this, think i'll ask Brett to come over and help me retrofit the den!
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post #64 of 530 Old 08-17-2014, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Why, do you want that level of inconsistency in your home theatre? The theoretical cause(s) are valid until someone comes up with a more plausible theory. You quoted Ralph saying that "the inconsistencies, at least in this case, appear to be related to differences in setup". Got a better theory? Let's hear it. Until then, I agree with Ralph.

I would if they moved the speakers and the imaging and effect improved.


Believing that hypothesis is to believe that people at Dolby have no idea where to position them and don't listen to them before a demonstration.


How about different room and ceiling composition?


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post #65 of 530 Old 08-17-2014, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Zen Traveler View Post
I find it interesting in both groups everyone had the exact opinion but they were opposite of each other insofar as which speakers y'all like best.
Such unanimity points to differences in set-up.
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Given sound reproduction IS Dolby's business I wonder if certain factors were intentional and you guys were part of the grand experiment before this comes to market.
Doubt it was anything that complicated. More like Dolby doesn't always do a good job with demos (despite sound reproduction being their business). For example: my first experience with PLIIz was at CES, where the Dolby demo had 4-5 foot tall L/R floorstanders with a pair of bookshelf speakers a couple feet above them. Know what it sounded like? Taller floorstanders. Any sense of "height" they thought they were demonstrating wasn't to be heard (I asked others, just to make sure it wasn't me).

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post #66 of 530 Old 08-17-2014, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph Potts View Post
Greetings,

I agree Rich regarding the observations and cause.

I am sure if you asked politely they would be happy to come out..


Regards,
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Why, do you want that level of inconsistency in your home theatre? The theoretical cause(s) are valid until someone comes up with a more plausible theory. You quoted Ralph saying that "the inconsistencies, at least in this case, appear to be related to differences in setup". Got a better theory? Let's hear it. Until then, I agree with Ralph.

OK, Ralph agrees with me, you agree with Ralph, so you agree with me


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post #67 of 530 Old 08-17-2014, 12:32 PM
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If 2015 brings these advancements and requires new AVR's, that would rightfully upset early adopters.
That's been going on for as long as there have been AVRs. It's not about to change just because of Atmos.
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Believing that hypothesis is to believe that people at Dolby have no idea where to position them and don't listen to them before a demonstration.
Stranger things have happened. Folks in my group noticed that the height speakers were pointing straight down rather than toed-in towards the listening area. None of us would have done that in our own set-ups.
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How about different room and ceiling composition?
I consider that part of set-up: choosing similar sized rooms in LA/NY/SF, making sure treatments are the same, checking for consistent speaker/seating placement between all 3 demo rooms, etc.

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post #68 of 530 Old 08-17-2014, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post
OK, Ralph agrees with me, you agree with Ralph, so you agree with me
Nope: agree with Ralph on the cause, don't agree with you (and Ralph) that the cause (set up) isn't a valid theory.

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post #69 of 530 Old 08-17-2014, 12:35 PM
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From Mark Henninger's impressions from the New York demo:
Quote:
When I got home, I watched the same scene from Star Trek on my system, while my memory was still fresh. The next day, I received a PM from Jwhip, who played the clip on his system when he got home. He said, "In my system, the music opening to the film was silky smooth, much better than anything we heard yesterday." Regarding the surround effects, Jwhip mentioned, "I have my surround speakers above ear level, pointed down at the coach, and agree with Ralph on that point. In fact, the flying arrows at the beginning of the film were as convincing as they were in the Atmos."
My 7.1 setup, featuring Dolby PL IIz with front-height channels, immersed me in the Blu-ray's Dolby TrueHD soundtrack just fine. There was precious little to differentiate it from what I heard in the Atmos mix. I can only conclude that proper setup and calibration trumps new formats when it comes to the overall surround-sound experience. That is why it's vitally important that Atmos demos take place on properly set up and calibrated systems—it's not a blunt tool. Without a proper demo, I predict that most enthusiasts will not feel a strong urge to upgrade an existing 7.1 system just for Atmos—the format needs to up the suspension-of-disbelief ante. Achieving that requires a seamless soundfield, and I look forward to an Atmos demo that convincingly pulls it off.

This is an intriguing finding.


In a family vacation home, I have 4 Revel M20's and matching center channel mount at 9 feet in an A-frame.
This system has a great theater feeling, the sound is immersive. So if you speakers are already high, then the addition of height channels may not be as dramatic.


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post #70 of 530 Old 08-17-2014, 12:36 PM
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Nope: agree with Ralph on the cause, don't agree with you (and Ralph) that the cause (set up) isn't a valid theory.
I didn't say it was an invalid theory, just that it was a theory.


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post #71 of 530 Old 08-17-2014, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post
I didn't say it was an invalid theory, just that it was a theory.
You contrasted it with the observations, which you said were valid. In any case, here's your chance to clarify: is his theory (inconsistencies due to set-up) valid?

Sanjay
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post #72 of 530 Old 08-17-2014, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by DamageMcRamage View Post
I have to admit, I have been stuck in 5.1 mode for years. I have never really had the room to upgrade to 7 channels nor have I ever had the inclination to start hiding wires and installing mounts for this many speakers. I suppose if I had my own dedicated theater room like most of you guys have here my attitude might be different; but realistically I don't see this particular format going anywhere for the average surround sound lover. Maybe that's not the target, and I get that, but still....


When do we cross the threshold of having too many speakers, with too much setup work? I have never had any complaints at the richness of 5 or 7.1 surround sound. This doesn't seem like the thing I would rush out to do. Would much rather upgrade the TV, install a projector or even upgrade my existing speaker set rather than investing in several more. Heck, an extra subwoofer would be more of a wise investment for a rig like mine.


I am sure in a properly setup theater this must sound fantastic, but for my living room I think the cost and complexity involved outweigh any potential benefits.


Please note this is not an attack on Atmos itself, nor a derision for anyone interested in incorporating this into their home theaters. It's just a personal musing.
I've also been stuck with 5.1 for over a decade, for much of the same reasons you mentioned. I STILL see atmos as a worthwhile upgrade, even if I don't add any speakers though. i think it makes adding those speakers in the future a MUCH easier process.

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post #73 of 530 Old 08-17-2014, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
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You contrasted it with the observations, which you said were valid. In any case, here's your chance to clarify: is his theory (inconsistencies due to set-up) valid?
Some theories:

Theory A: Inconsistency due to speaker placement too close to the wall.

Theory B: Inconsistency due to room composition that could not be corrected by speaker placement.

Theory C: Inconsistency due to speaker design.

The above theories are valid. If disproven, they become invalid.
Until then, these theories are best described as valid and unproven.

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post #74 of 530 Old 08-17-2014, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post
Some theories:
In that case you agree that it was set-up.

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post #75 of 530 Old 08-17-2014, 01:06 PM
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Sounds as exciting as the one legged rocking chair when it was introduced and will probably last just that long!
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post #76 of 530 Old 08-17-2014, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
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I've also been stuck with 5.1 for over a decade, for much of the same reasons you mentioned. I STILL see atmos as a worthwhile upgrade, even if I don't add any speakers though. i think it makes adding those speakers in the future a MUCH easier process.

It is definitely worthwhile. As the technology matures and costs associated with it come down, it will evolve to the point of being included in every receiver, anyway. I am certainly not opposed to having Atmos. I just don't think I would go out of my way to make a proper Atmos theater with 4 or more in-ceiling speakers. Especially without a dedicated room.


For a less involved a/v guy such as myself, I don't see the extra expense justified for my application. For those with dedicated theaters or the time/space/desire to do it I can see its appeal. And when it's done properly, I can only imagine how nice in must sound.


If the technology really catches on, you will see almost every speaker manufacturer coming up with designs to incorporate Atmos in the most convenient way possible. Much like they make dipole/bipole speakers now.


Until it is time tested, I am going to lump it into the same category as 3D for now. My gut tells me that it will not penetrate the market the way the CE companies hope it will. We will see. I am in no way affected by it either positively or negatively. It will be what consumers choose it to be.

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post #77 of 530 Old 08-17-2014, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post
Some theories:

Theory A: Inconsistency due to speaker placement too close to the wall.

Theory B: Inconsistency due to room composition that could not be corrected by speaker placement.

Theory C: Inconsistency due to speaker design.

The above theories are valid. If disproven, they become invalid.
Until then, these theories are best described as valid and unproven.

- Rich
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
In that case you agree that it was set-up.

Not sure because I do not know your definition of "set-up".


I think all the above are equally plausible and more than one might be correct.
For example, you might need a better tonal match for main speakers playing in that room and you might have to position them differently.

Even then, ceiling speakers might be more convincing .

The possibilities abound.

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post #78 of 530 Old 08-17-2014, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
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Not sure because I do not know your definition of "set-up".
A few posts up:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
I consider that part of set-up: choosing similar sized rooms in LA/NY/SF, making sure treatments are the same, checking for consistent speaker/seating placement between all 3 demo rooms, etc.

Sanjay
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post #79 of 530 Old 08-17-2014, 01:24 PM
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100% agree. It feels like they ran out of time and cut back on features. Atmos and object based audio should have more to offer than ceiling channels; FilmMixer hints that there is more to come.
It seems to me that Atmos probably won't come into its own until consumer processors add a Trinnov-style speaker locating measurement. Which is probably a few years off. Unless someone brings Trinnov back to the AVR space and uses Trinnov's remapping capabilities in service of Atmos. In which case, let me go find my checkbook...

IOW, I'm glad my living room installation was delayed enough that I could I prewire my for Atmos, but I'll wait until Atmos develops speaker-finding features (and someone comes out with an Atmos AVR or pre-pro with competent room correction, a la ARC/Trinnov/Dirac).

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post
From Mark Henninger's impressions from the New York demo:
[rear heights vs. standard high-mounted rear surrounds]
***So if you speakers are already high, then the addition of height channels may not be as dramatic.
This stuff is so new that we're still getting targeted demos instead of reading about people buying stuff, so IMO there's still a lot of convergence to best practices needed. That will happen over time.

My hunch is that the most cost-effective good Atmos implementation might end up being 7.M.2: seven main channels with the rears up high as many of us have already done (mine are centered ~7' off the ground), multisubs, two front-height channels. With "Elevation" front heights, such a setup would also lead to the least possible modifications needed for standard 7.M setups.

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post #80 of 530 Old 08-17-2014, 01:37 PM
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Before anyone gets too far off in the weeds trying to figure out what precise differences between these setups may have led to which exact sonic differences, let's just remember that this was a fully sighted evaluation in a group setting. As much as everyone who attended has a valid opinion, those opinions are alway shaped by many subtle things that go on in and around the demo.

In some cases, the widespread agreement among the listeners could be described as an indication that the psychological factors may have been stronger than the acoustic factors. Only one or two dissenting voices get drowned out easily.
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post #81 of 530 Old 08-17-2014, 01:38 PM
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Interesting on Trinnov, I contacted them recently and there may be a housecall.
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post #82 of 530 Old 08-17-2014, 01:46 PM
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So ATMOS is leading the way when will we see AURO 3D and DTS-UHD?
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post #83 of 530 Old 08-17-2014, 01:46 PM
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Hi Guys,

As I don't see many of the member names in this thread over in the 'big' Atmos for the home thread, and as this thread is all about Dolby demos, perhaps it makes sense for me to post links to detailed reports of two demos I have attended at Dolby's London HQ.

This is the report of the demo I attended in mid-July.

And this is the report of the second demo I was invited to, held on 13th August.


The first report is fairly subjective, while the second report is more 'technical' and contains Dolby's answers to many questions which are being aired in the thread itself.

Best,

Keith
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post #84 of 530 Old 08-17-2014, 02:28 PM
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Hi Guys,

As I don't see many of the member names in this thread over in the 'big' Atmos for the home thread, and as this thread is all about Dolby demos, perhaps it makes sense for me to post links to detailed reports of two demos I have attended at Dolby's London HQ.

This is the report of the demo I attended in mid-July.

And this is the report of the second demo I was invited to, held on 13th August.


The first report is fairly subjective, while the second report is more 'technical' and contains Dolby's answers to many questions which are being aired in the thread itself.

Best,

Keith
What will the automatic setup utilities and the overall adjustments be like in the Atmos capable receivers when they come to market? Will these utilities make it easier to make the systems sound more consistent? How will they work?
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post #85 of 530 Old 08-17-2014, 02:30 PM
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Great article, I am learning more and more about Dolby Atmos from every article that I read, and that is a good thing.

I've got one question for the folks who were present for the demos in CA and NY. Did anyone ask the Dolby staff why they played the volcano scene from Star Trek into Darkness as loud as they did? The fact that it was almost too loud in both demonstration events makes me wonder if this was planned. The reason I am surprised is because I would have expected the experts at Dolby Labs to be aware of such a simple factor. Something just isn't computing for me!

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post #86 of 530 Old 08-17-2014, 02:55 PM
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Nope: agree with Ralph on the cause, don't agree with you (and Ralph) that the cause (set up) isn't a valid theory.
Greetings,

For clarification I didn't say that problems with the setup isn't a valid theory, my point in agreeing with Rich (apparently I misunderstood?) was that until we can determine what the cause was than seeing setup as the problem is theoretical (conjecture).

Just to be clear...


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post #87 of 530 Old 08-17-2014, 03:00 PM
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I've also been stuck with 5.1 for over a decade, for much of the same reasons you mentioned. I STILL see atmos as a worthwhile upgrade, even if I don't add any speakers though. i think it makes adding those speakers in the future a MUCH easier process.
You're not alone. At least Atmos in the white papers acknowledges that many of us will be doing 5.1.2 or 5.1.4 setups versus trying to add an extra pair of rears. Sometime the rears problems is budget, often it is placement. My primary listening couch is against the back wall, which makes a rear direct speaker unworkable.

Of course, the same rear wall seating area problem is also an issue for Atmos since it seems that Atmos assumes that there is some space between the listening seats and the rear wall, regardless if the speakers are direct firing or reflecting.
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post #88 of 530 Old 08-17-2014, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Cal68 View Post
Great article, I am learning more and more about Dolby Atmos from every article that I read, and that is a good thing.

I've got one question for the folks who were present for the demos in CA and NY. Did anyone ask the Dolby staff why they played the volcano scene from Star Trek into Darkness as loud as they did? The fact that it was almost too loud in both demonstration events makes me wonder if this was planned. The reason I am surprised is because I would have expected the experts at Dolby Labs to be aware of such a simple factor. Something just isn't computing for me!
Greetings,

The demonstration in the commercial theater setting was the strident and uncomfortably blaring one. The one that took place in the home theater setting didn't have the same impact at all. The Atmos mix of Star Trek we heard was done strictly for demonstration purposes and wasn't meant as an indicator that it is destined for an Atmos soundtrack on Blu-ray etc. I couldn't offer an explanation for why it sounded the way it did, regardless of the volume level. I have heard from AVS members who complained of it sounding that way on Blu-ray as well. I didn't and haven't had that experience when I played it back. Like the others in my group I played the same scene back after I got home and it doesn't sound like what I heard at Dolby. As I pointed out to Mark I honestly think that this is much less of an issue when compared to the differences we heard during the home theater demo. That is something I find to be more important, relevant and worth investigation.

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Ralph C. Potts
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post #89 of 530 Old 08-17-2014, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by DamageMcRamage View Post
It is definitely worthwhile. As the technology matures and costs associated with it come down, it will evolve to the point of being included in every receiver, anyway. I am certainly not opposed to having Atmos. I just don't think I would go out of my way to make a proper Atmos theater with 4 or more in-ceiling speakers. Especially without a dedicated room.


For a less involved a/v guy such as myself, I don't see the extra expense justified for my application. For those with dedicated theaters or the time/space/desire to do it I can see its appeal. And when it's done properly, I can only imagine how nice in must sound.


If the technology really catches on, you will see almost every speaker manufacturer coming up with designs to incorporate Atmos in the most convenient way possible. Much like they make dipole/bipole speakers now.


Until it is time tested, I am going to lump it into the same category as 3D for now. My gut tells me that it will not penetrate the market the way the CE companies hope it will. We will see. I am in no way affected by it either positively or negatively. It will be what consumers choose it to be.
yeah, you're right. in my 'theater' it's something I WANT NOW, haha. but I also have a 5.1 in room that I pieced together with 'spare parts' I've cast away over the years. in that room, I feel exactly like you described. at some point i'll have atmos, cause it's not worth avoiding, but I'm not going to install ceiling speakers, ever. the argument I do make though, is at some point atmos enabled front speakers will probably be an option I consider.


in all honesty, my biggest hurdle when it comes to upgrades is I don't like getting rid of functioning products. I can't say my speakers are up to par anymore, but they are speakers, they still work fine. what am I going to do with them? if it was easier to sell stuff, that would solve all my problems, but the items I 'want' to upgrade aren't easy to sell local, and not worth the hassle of shipping to me. perhaps that's my biggest hurdle. I'm just running out of places to put things. I only have the 5.1 in my room because of upgrading stuff that still works. there's only so many rooms I can stuff big arse speakers all around me


then again, when I bought my first 5.1 set up(well 5 speaker set up, I think it was a year or two before 5.1 was really a thing) nobody else I knew had surround sound of any kind. most of my friends make the same arguments about the inconvenience of running wires, and the complexity of needing an avr etc. most of them now have surround sound of some kind in at least one room. so I think atmos WILL catch on, but it'll be more like you said, and it'll be when companies go for the convenient route. at some point in the near future we will have atmos enabled sound bars for example. the in-ceiling speakers present a challenge, but there is no reason why somebody could run a 5.1 setup and not run a 5.1.4 setup with atmos enabled speakers. for ppl looking to do a new 5.1 set up, it will make sense for them to get an atmos one at that point, and there won't really be a reason(other than cost maybe) not to
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post #90 of 530 Old 08-17-2014, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
...For example: my first experience with PLIIz was at CES, where the Dolby demo had 4-5 foot tall L/R floorstanders with a pair of bookshelf speakers a couple feet above them. Know what it sounded like? Taller floorstanders. Any sense of "height" they thought they were demonstrating wasn't to be heard (I asked others, just to make sure it wasn't me).
For the record I was being slightly tongue-in-cheek with my comments but what you say above is also interesting given that PLIIz Heights are supposedly mixed using the side surround information (it makes you wonder if they even level-matched the speakers). That said, I feel my rear speakers are more beneficial in both movies and multichannel music compared to the height channels and may toy again with taking them down to see how much I miss them....I also did not like DSX in our 9.1 setup.

Btw, thanks for your observations and no need to respond to this OT comment.
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