Dolby Demos Atmos for Cinema and Home - Page 6 - AVS Forum
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Old 08-19-2014, 02:25 AM
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KEF speakers, JBL speakers. coming soon?


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http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2014/08/dol...ody-brilliant/ - London preview event


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Old 08-19-2014, 04:00 AM
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Originally Posted by BNestico View Post
I personally wouldn't touch any of this tech with a 10ft pole until DTS has had it's say. You know it's coming, and soon so why would anyone mess with an AVR that can only decode one version of a format which we know will have a competitor.
I think you may be in for quite a wait. Remind me how many movies have been mixed in the 'rival' DTS format, so far....
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Old 08-19-2014, 04:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Franin View Post
I thought the same thing but everyone keeps saying that it worked better than ceiling. I haven't heard anything but I still will proceed with ceiling speakers. Same all around as my fronts and rears.
I've heard them and I can tell you they sound fantastic. I guess the question is: do you believe those who have heard them and say they are great, or those who haven’t heard them and say they are silly nonsense?
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Old 08-19-2014, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I think you may be in for quite a wait. Remind me how many movies have been mixed in the 'rival' DTS format, so far....
I'm not sure that's a valid comparison.

Don't forget that most movies currently are being released for the home market using DTS compression (i.e. many mixing companies are more familiar with DTS's mixing software than with Dolby's), and hundreds of movies were remixed to produce 7.1 discrete soundtracks for the home environment, even though their theatrical releases were only 5.1 or less (i.e. redistributing the many audio tracks that were originally recorded among a different number of speaker channels [or objects] is not new.)

I suspect there'll be competition among the three 3D audio formats when older movies which didn't have theatrical Atmos releases get remixed for the home market to include overhead objects. I don't know how likely it is that DTS or Auro will create software which can translate theatrical Atmos mixes to home DTS UHD mixes, but I certainly wouldn't rule it out.

It seems likely to me that the adoption of 3D audio formats on BDs is going to follow a path similar to the original adoption of DD and DTS on DVDs: after a few years all three 3D audio formats and decoders will be available (Dolby Atmos, DTS UHD and Auro-3D).

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Old 08-19-2014, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I've heard them and I can tell you they sound fantastic. I guess the question is: do you believe those who have heard them and say they are great, or those who haven’t heard them and say they are silly nonsense?
Going by what Rich B posted a quote yesterday says the overhead speakers were clearer etc etc. So there is members apparently that have heard the demo and preferred the ceilings. I haven't heard either and I know there are people criticising the top firing speakers without hearing them( I guess like me we have to wait until we get a demo in our own area before we start making the right decision ) I watched the youtube video that was done by Gene and the other guy and read the comments and Gene mentions the cinemas that have Atmos don't have top firing speakers at all. That was a pretty good point I have to admit but by reading these threads and from distinguish members like yourself, Rich B, Filmixer and Sudrani Im kinda 50/50. I can go either way as I have a dedicated sealed room with 2.67m ceiling height.

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Old 08-19-2014, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post
I'm not sure that's a valid comparison.
If a movie hasn't had a theatrical release in a format, what do you think its chances are of being specially remixed in that format for Bluray?

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Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post
Don't forget that most movies currently are being released for the home market using DTS compression (i.e. many mixing companies are more familiar with DTS's mixing software than with Dolby's),
True but not really relevant. They use DTS because the workflow is (currently) easier that's all. There's no benefit as such in either DTS or Dolby as the compressor - the end result is the same.

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Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post
and hundreds of movies were remixed to produce 7.1 discrete soundtracks for the home environment, even though their theatrical releases were only 5.1 or less (i.e. redistributing the many audio tracks that were originally recorded among a different number of speaker channels [or objects] is not new.)
It's rather different to upmix at source from 5.1 to 7.1 than it is to create a special object audio track just for the home market.

What percentage of 7.1 Blurays were remixed for the home market, as opposed to being 7.1 theatrical mixes?

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Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post
I suspect there'll be competition among the three 3D audio formats when older movies which didn't have theatrical Atmos releases get remixed for the home market to include overhead objects. I don't know how likely it is that DTS or Auro will create software which can translate theatrical Atmos mixes to home DTS UHD mixes, but I certainly wouldn't rule it out.
I doubt if Dolby will allow them to rejig their patent-protected format in that way.

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Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post
It seems likely to me that the adoption of 3D audio formats on BDs is going to follow a path similar to the original adoption of DD and DTS on DVDs: after a few years all three 3D audio formats and decoders will be available (Dolby Atmos, DTS UHD and Auro-3D).
That is true assuming that DTS UHD and Auro ever see the light of day on Bluray at all. Given the huge first-mover advantage that Atmos has, I can see the other two never happening at all. They will become the HD-DVD in a Blu-ray world, so to speak. Only speculation of course, as all this is.
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Old 08-19-2014, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Franin View Post
Going by what Rich B posted a quote yesterday says the overhead speakers were clearer etc etc. So there is members apparently that have heard the demo and preferred the ceilings. I haven't heard either and I know there are people criticising the top firing speakers without hearing them( I guess like me we have to wait until we get a demo in our own area before we start making the right decision ) I watched the youtube video that was done by Gene and the other guy and read the comments and Gene mentions the cinemas that have Atmos don't have top firing speakers at all. That was a pretty good point I have to admit but by reading these threads and from distinguish members like yourself, Rich B, Filmixer and Sudrani Im kinda 50/50. I can go either way as I have a dedicated sealed room with 2.67m ceiling height.
Of the demos that have taken place so far, the Atmos speakers were universally preferred in every demo except the one in NYC. That latter may be a rogue. In NYC every person attending could easily tell which speakers were in use - in the two demos I have attended, nobody could tell which speakers were in use!

Not sure what Gene means when he says Atmos cinemas don't have 'top firing speakers'. If he means they don't have Atmos-enabled speakers with upward firing modules, well, yeah.... is he in a contest for stating the freakin' obvious?

My experience is that people will be just as happy with Atmos speakers as ceiling speakers.
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Old 08-19-2014, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by kenoh89 View Post
KEF speakers, JBL speakers. coming soon?
Those look like JBL Pro speakers that already exist. Just because they're installed in a screening room that happens to be demonstrating Atmos shouldn't be confused with the upward-firing Atmos-enabled height modules coming from Kef. Two very different things.

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Old 08-19-2014, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
My experience is that people will be just as happy with Atmos speakers as ceiling speakers.
More to the point, regardless of subjective affinity for one or the other, is that 1.) people will have a choice and 2.) for those who can't do in/on ceiling installs they have a choice in many rooms... and for those in the second camp, the general consensus is that it isn't a huge compromise as many have expressed or expected (and who haven't heard it for themselves.)

And there will be a part of the user community that can't use it at all.. which isn't a deficiency of a technology that relies on overhead sound per se.
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Old 08-19-2014, 11:41 AM
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Those look like JBL Pro speakers that already exist.
They are.. we use the 12" version of those... and they sound great.
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Old 08-19-2014, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post
Don't forget that most movies currently are being released for the home market using DTS compression (i.e. many mixing companies are more familiar with DTS's mixing software than with Dolby's), and hundreds of movies were remixed to produce 7.1 discrete soundtracks for the home environment, even though their theatrical releases were only 5.1 or less (i.e. redistributing the many audio tracks that were originally recorded among a different number of speaker channels [or objects] is not new.)
Many authoring companies still rely on Dolby's suite for all content not delivered via BR... which is almost exclusively every other format.

The speed of the lossless encoders was what drew much love from the authoring companies doing such work.. DTS's solution is much faster, and maybe a little more user friendly (debatable subjective comment.)

That being said, I've heard the new Dolby Media Encoder to be used with Atmos is smoking fast...

Upmixing from stems is a wholly different beast that taking a 5.1 mix and going to Atmos... it's not about access to individual units, those all exist... it's getting them out of the original stems to make them into objects, and even from a predub level, it's a large, complicated amount of work. It very well may be that they go and manipulate the stems into 7.1 and Atmos (I did it on "The Heat" and it was acceptable) but not a big enough difference that I could honestly sell to a client, and Dolby Surround might be really good to give us something similar, and similarly acceptable.

Regardless, as I've mentioned before, studios seem reluctant to redo the audio without creative input (from the director, editor, etc..)

I know some have mentioned they seem to do whatever they want with the picture... however, I attribute many of those example to be the result of overdone, or botched, compression of director approved masters.. not saying it's right, but it is a different example.
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Old 08-19-2014, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Franin View Post
Going by what Rich B posted a quote yesterday says the overhead speakers were clearer etc etc. So there is members apparently that have heard the demo and preferred the ceilings. I haven't heard either and I know there are people criticising the top firing speakers without hearing them( I guess like me we have to wait until we get a demo in our own area before we start making the right decision ) I watched the youtube video that was done by Gene and the other guy and read the comments and Gene mentions the cinemas that have Atmos don't have top firing speakers at all. That was a pretty good point I have to admit but by reading these threads and from distinguish members like yourself, Rich B, Filmixer and Sudrani Im kinda 50/50. I can go either way as I have a dedicated sealed room with 2.67m ceiling height.

I was quoting from the NY demo:

Quote:
Evidently, the difference between overhead and reflected Atmos overhead channels was too obvious to fool anyone.
[Editor's note: the same thing happened with the group in LA—no one thought the overhead speakers were being used.]
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Old 08-19-2014, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
More to the point, regardless of subjective affinity for one or the other, is that 1.) people will have a choice and 2.) for those who can't do in/on ceiling installs they have a choice in many rooms... and for those in the second camp, the general consensus is that it isn't a huge compromise as many have expressed or expected (and who haven't heard it for themselves.)
Exactly - which is why I said people will be happy with either

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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
And there will be a part of the user community that can't use it at all.. which isn't a deficiency of a technology that relies on overhead sound per se.
Indeed. Just as I, for example, can't have rear surrounds, unfortunately.
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Old 08-19-2014, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post
I was quoting from the NY demo:

- Rich
It's not about fooling anyone as the link front the NY mentioned.

They have a distincly differnt sound IMO.

It's like stating that people were easily able to distinguish dipole from direct firing surrounds.... We're they trying to fool any one? They sound different... I don't think Dolby ever tried to intimate they wouldn't.

The New York authors preference for why they preferred the ceiling speakrs are the exact opposite reason why I preferrred the sound of the more diffuse modules.

Tom Norton, whom I spoke to, preferred the ceiling speakers in Burbank....

The reports that the four of us talked and preferred the modules doesn't mean there was something wrong in NY.... Maybe we like the vanilla, and they really like the chocolate.

Maybe I'm reading to much into this discussion.
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Old 08-19-2014, 01:29 PM
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It's not about fooling anyone as the link front the NY mentioned.

They have a distincly differnt sound IMO.

It's like stating that people were easily able to distinguish dipole from direct firing surrounds.... We're they trying to fool any one? They sound different... I don't think Dolby ever tried to intimate they wouldn't.

The New York authors preference for why they preferred the ceiling speakrs are the exact opposite reason why I preferrred the sound of the more diffuse modules.

Tom Norton, whom I spoke to, preferred the ceiling speakers in Burbank....

The reports that the four of us talked and preferred the modules doesn't mean there was something wrong in NY.... Maybe we like the vanilla, and they really like the chocolate.

Maybe I'm reading to much into this discussion.
People like what they like.

Dolby thought the audience would be fooled. They weren't.
It is a fair observations that some may find applicable if they want that fly-over effect.

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Old 08-19-2014, 01:54 PM
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People like what they like.

Dolby thought the audience would be fooled. They weren't.
It is a fair observations that some may find applicable if they want that fly-over effect.

- Rich
You weren't there.

In Burbank they weren't trying to fool anyone.

That's the characterization I have an issue with.

That a highly educated (in terms of audio) group of journalists and enthusiast were easily ably to pick one over the other says nothing

The fact is that it might be, in a room with both , one or the others position might not be optimal.

Maybe the situation in Burbank and NY led to enough of a placement difference the results would be different if they were reversed.

I really don't know.

However the general consensus remains the up firing solution works very well.

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Old 08-19-2014, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
You weren't there.

In Burbank they weren't trying to fool anyone.

That's the characterization I have an issue with.

That a highly educated (in terms of audio) group of journalists and enthusiast were easily ably to pick one over the other says nothing

The fact is that it might be, in a room with both , one or the others position might not be optimal.

Maybe the situation in Burbank and NY led to enough of a placement difference the results would be different if they were reversed.

I really don't know.

However the general consensus remains the up firing solution works very well.
The differences in composition of the audience and resulting preferences are also noteworthy.

It seems reasonable that up-firing speakers produce a different effects which are of course room dependent.
If the purpose of the Atmos speaker is to create the illusion of overhead sound, it apparently did not work in NY nor in LA, preferences aside.

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Old 08-19-2014, 02:24 PM
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If the purpose of the Atmos speaker is to create the illusion of overhead sound, it apparently did not work in NY nor in LA, preferences aside.

- Rich
That's odd. It definitely worked in London.
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Old 08-19-2014, 04:07 PM
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Here's something I haven't seen mentioned in this thread yet.

Atmos essentually follows the same concept that videogames have been using for many years now for in-game sound effects.
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Old 08-19-2014, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post
If the purpose of the Atmos speaker is to create the illusion of overhead sound, it apparently did not work in NY nor in LA, preferences aside.

- Rich
Rich.. I've always had a lot of respect for you and your contributions..

But I think you're twisting a simple preference that people have into other conclusions..

http://www.highdefdigest.com/blog/do...mos-home-demo/

Quote:
Regardless, the Atmos demos were very impressive. I felt that the version using discrete ceiling speakers sounded best, but the upward-firing ground speakers were no slouch either and were a pretty convincing substitute. Depending on your own room characteristics (super-tall cathedral ceilings may pose a significant challenge), most viewers in average-sized rooms should find that option quite satisfying.
Dolby Demos Atmos for Cinema and Home

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Adding the overhead channels made a huge improvement in the immersiveness, and I could hear a slight difference in timbre between the two overhead setups. But more importantly, the ceiling-mounted speakers were much more localizable, which was a bit distracting, while the Atmos-enabled speakers produced a more diffuse overhead soundfield that nevertheless represented the position of the object well.
- Scott W.

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/dolby-atmos-moves

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The demo, using Atmos trailers and the first few minutes of Star Trek Into Darkness (all, of course, mastered in Dolby Atmos) was very effective. Sounds came from all around us (well, not the floor—that’s apparently, as yet, an undiscovered country).
Quote:
They then compared these Atmos-enabled speakers with discrete ceiling speakers. I preferred the latter, finding it more precise and less congested.
- Tom Norton.

Did he say the upfiring speakers didn't produce any illusion of overhead sound in that comment?

http://www.cnet.com/news/dolby-atmos-at-home-ears-on/

Quote:
Perhaps most interesting was the switch to the upward-firing drivers. They did make sound that seemed to come from the ceiling. Was it as perfect as the actual ceiling speakers? No, but it was very, very close.
And a fairly dissenting opinion that you seemed to have latched onto

Dolby Demos Atmos for Cinema and Home

Quote:
In our demo, the ceiling-mounted speakers sounded clearer, and there was a greater sense of overhead space. Also, the timbre match with the main speakers was good enough to avoid distraction. The reflected sound was more diffuse; to my ears, it sounded processed—like a low-bitrate MP3. In addition, the reflected sound did not create as convincing an illusion of sound coming from directly overhead. I wonder if the speaker placement—directly against the walls—was responsible for that discrepancy.
- Mark H

From a UK reviewer:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/08...eater_preview/

Quote:
So what does it sound like? The good news is that the domestic version of Atmos proves to be astonishingly similar to its theatrical sibling. Even more remarkable, the performance of those Dolby Atmos Enabled Speakers is uncannily similar to that of physical in-ceiling speakers.

I know you have read these... but I just think your characterization that the up firing speakers didn't convey a sense of overhead sound, in either NY or LA, is off base.
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Old 08-19-2014, 04:23 PM
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Here's something I haven't seen mentioned in this thread yet.

Atmos essentially follows the same concept that video games have been using for many years now for in-game sound effects.
Dolby Atmos Game mode, of course.
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Old 08-19-2014, 04:25 PM
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That's odd. It definitely worked in London.
It worked in LA as well. I didn't see anyone from the NY group say it "did not work", just that their preference was the opposite of ours.

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Old 08-19-2014, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Dolby Atmos Game mode, of course.
Err, not quite. I mean the actual technology behind Atmos as a whole where you sample individual sound objects and then use software to move them around a 3D space is exactly what videogames do.
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Old 08-19-2014, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by NintendoManiac64 View Post
Err, not quite. I mean the actual technology behind Atmos as a whole where you sample individual sound objects and then use software to move them around a 3D space is exactly what videogames do.
With headphones?
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Old 08-19-2014, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
That's odd. It definitely worked in London.
And it worked well in LA... and some of the reports from NY didn't share Mark H's sentiment about it not working at all... and even then, he gave the caveat that the speakers in NY might not have been in an optimal position.

While I certainly agree that Dolby didn't do a fantastic job with selecting source material or choosing the best foot forward equipment and setups for the demos (which I will also agree is fairly inexcusable for such a company,) they accomplished their goal, and an overwhelming majority of people who attended the events in LA, NY and London came away impressed...
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Old 08-19-2014, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
With headphones?
With anything. Your computer and/or game console are already configured for how many speaker channels are available, so from there they mix the audio to fit that. Also, at least for Windows PCs, 2-channel speakers and headphones are separate settings.

Now of course, this only works if the game's audio engine supports downmixing the audio into more than 2 speaker-based channels, and quite a few do not. Also, due to the raw computational requirements, many games do not do that great of a job at providing true surround sound, particularly in headphones.

You can read more here about some mordern hardware that's attempting to make such technology much less computationally intensive:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7370/a...-upcoming-gpus

Last edited by NintendoManiac64; 08-19-2014 at 04:36 PM.
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Old 08-19-2014, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by NintendoManiac64 View Post
Here's something I haven't seen mentioned in this thread yet.

Atmos essentually follows the same concept that videogames have been using for many years now for in-game sound effects.
Discussed in these forums a couple years back when Atmos was new, mention that the object-based approach that gaming had been using for a decade was finally coming to movie mixing. Guess that's taken for granted enough at this point that it doesn't need repeating.

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Old 08-19-2014, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by NintendoManiac64 View Post
Err, not quite. I mean the actual technology behind Atmos as a whole where you sample individual sound objects and then use software to move them around a 3D space is exactly what videogames do.
They are only really similar in that they allow for real time rending...

Totally different objectives (live feedback/user input rendering vs. rendering to a given speaker setup based on pre determined metadata).

Atmos uses pre recorded audio vs. games using as needed samples that are manipulated in real time with eq, distance, dynamics and reverberant processing.

They do indeed both render on the fly.. but in wholly different ways and using different technologies.
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Old 08-19-2014, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
and some of the reports from NY didn't share Mark H's sentiment about it not working at all...
Whoa, let's back up a bit. He said "the reflected sound did not create as convincing an illusion of sound coming from directly overhead". Hence their preference being the opposite of ours. But he never said it was completely unconvincing (not working at all). Haven't heard anyone claim that, except Rich.

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Old 08-19-2014, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by NintendoManiac64 View Post
With anything. Your computer and/or game console are already configured for how many speaker channels are available, so from there they mix the audio to fit that. Also, at least for Windows PCs, 2-channel speakers and headphones are separate settings.

Now of course, this only works if the game's audio engine supports downmixing the audio into more than 2 speaker-based channels, and quite a few do not. Also, due to the raw computational requirements, many games do not do that great of a job at providing true surround sound, particularly in headphones.

You can read more here about some mordern hardware that's attempting to make such technology much less computationally intensive:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7370/a...-upcoming-gpus
The true 3D hardcore gamers (sound & picture); do they have overhead speakers in their setup?

You, for example, what kind of setup are you using besides surround sound from your headphones?
/// Like how many channel speakers @ your control center, and a subwoofer of course?
And, what type of display; LCD or plasma? ...How large (diagonal)?

By the way, I've never had a game player of my entire life, and never played any games besides ping pong when I was about ten. On my PC I never played any games, ever. Not because I don't like it but because I know nothing about it and nobody ever tried to convert or attract me into it. ...Is it fun? ...How's the sound if you're using a setup like mine (9.2) and the picture (60" plasma) and the overall feel with a control box in your hands and rocking a rocker switch and pushing buttons real fast and turning the steering wheel and switching gears and firing those rocket grenade launchers and all that gaming jazz?

I guess Dolby Atmos is coming to your world too; are you excited?

P.S. When I was 18 I did try few times that solo ping pong game (tic - tic - tic) machine they had @ my local strip joint. ...Between two stripper's shows. ...But only very few times, perhaps six or seven (a quarter per game). And that's it; that's all my entire life experience with gaming from a machine.
But I should admit that it was back in 1972, way before CDs, when I was much involved into LPs and Black Sabbath and Yes and Johnny Winter and Led Zeppelin and the Rolling Stones ...

Last edited by NorthSky; 08-19-2014 at 05:14 PM.
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