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Old 08-20-2014, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Suntan View Post
Has there even been a Blu Ray released with a native ATMOS audio track yet?

Only one forthcoming music BD reported in an audiophile no article: "Pure Audio Blu-ray with both Dolby Atmos and Auro 3D from 2L" (link).
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Old 08-20-2014, 06:20 PM
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The upfiring speaker idea is stupid just like diffusive dipole rears are stupid compared to standard discreet multiple channels...

Dont let anyone convince you otherwise...
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Old 08-20-2014, 06:40 PM
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Dont let anyone convince you otherwise...
Too late for that. At this point, enough people have heard the upwards firing speakers for themselves to know what you're claiming isn't true.

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Old 08-20-2014, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Yep. Everyone I spoke to in London was impressed. And the preference in London was for the Atmos speakers.
I wonder if the Atmos speakers sound as good in a room with no ceiling speakers. Somehow just seeing them there is assurance to the brain that sound can come from there.
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Old 08-20-2014, 10:26 PM
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Bouncing around all the Atmos threads, not sure this has come up.

With regard to the effectiveness of upward firing vs ceiling mounted which we listened for at the Dolby Event - shouldn't the upward firing speakers or just modules be positioned directly under the ceiling mounted speakers so the reflected sound is as close as possible to ceiling mounted?

I don't know, am i right or wrong?
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Old 08-20-2014, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Orbitron View Post
With regard to the effectiveness of upward firing vs ceiling mounted which we listened for at the Dolby Event - shouldn't the upward firing speakers or just modules be positioned directly under the ceiling mounted speakers so the reflected sound is as close as possible to ceiling mounted?
The upward firing drivers are mounted at an angle on the top of speaker cabinets, since they are trying to bounce sounds at an angle. So, those speaker cabinets don't need to be directly under the ceiling mounted speakers. Instead, they need to be at a location from where the spot they light up on the ceiling is roughly where the ceiling mounted speakers are.


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Old 08-20-2014, 10:45 PM
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Thanks.
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Old 08-20-2014, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Orbitron View Post
With regard to the effectiveness of upward firing vs ceiling mounted which we listened for at the Dolby Event - shouldn't the upward firing speakers or just modules be positioned directly under the ceiling mounted speakers so the reflected sound is as close as possible to ceiling mounted?
If you are asking how to get the most seamless A/B demo, your intentions are right. But it's a moving target. The apparent location of the bounce changes slightly for every seat in the room, whereas with ceiling speakers the sound origination position remains fixed.

That aside, the concept is about co-locating the upfiring speaker with existing speakers for nicest integration. There seems to be a lot of latitude from where the height effects can effectively emanate, especially if it's the more diffused effect of the bouncers.

The real deal killer could be that the shape of a speaker hanging off the ceiling does not make for an ideal reflective surface, so it's best aimed elsewhere.

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Old 08-21-2014, 04:12 AM
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The upfiring speaker idea is stupid just like diffusive dipole rears are stupid compared to standard discreet multiple channels...

Dont let anyone convince you otherwise...
Where did you hear them?
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Old 08-21-2014, 04:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
I wonder if the Atmos speakers sound as good in a room with no ceiling speakers. Somehow just seeing them there is assurance to the brain that sound can come from there.
Ah, but we Limeys are cunning devils, Roger. In London the physical ceiling speakers are hidden behind the centre, drop-section, of ceiling.

They are behind the grey AT material in this photo:
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Old 08-21-2014, 07:52 AM
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The upward firing drivers are mounted at an angle on the top of speaker cabinets, since they are trying to bounce sounds at an angle. So, those speaker cabinets don't need to be directly under the ceiling mounted speakers. Instead, they need to be at a location from where the spot they light up on the ceiling is roughly where the ceiling mounted speakers are.


People who have heard them, have preferred "Simulated Height Speakers" to actual height speakers.
This proves, that no matter the preference, the listeners COULD tell the difference.

Obviously, the room is going to play a huge part in the effectiveness of "Simulated Height Speakers".
So, even if you do hear them (in a Dolby venue or not), that is not a reliable indicator of their performance in ones home.

Technically, the dispersion characteristics of sound and driver in the 180 Hz range show considerable dispersion which could cause interference with the mains.
This may not be a easily recognized artifact, especially when there is no baseline for comparison.

Actual height speakers are permitted to have a larger frequency range, will not have this interference with the mains, and should provide a wider "sweet" spot.
The efficacy of a particular solution cannot be determined by testimonials.

Still, it is accurate to say that particular "Simulated Height Speakers" worked in a specific venue and were proffered by some attendees.

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Old 08-21-2014, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by blazar View Post
First of all, sufficiently high side wall speakers would likely work ok for a height layer, depending on the size of the room and the relative distance to the sitting position. The ability to setup the individual receiver specifically to the location of a person's existing speakers is CRUCIAL for a proper setup. If they have not included this in the Atmos receiver, I would suggest everyone skip this nonsense and DO NOT BUY the receivers coming out.

Up-firing speakers... again simply silly nonsense. If you are buying these, then you are simply too lazy or simply not interested enough in a home theater to care to do it right.

If you can't do ceiling speakers or sufficient numbers of speakers, skip this whole concept of object oriented sound. You will simply be wasting your money.

That "too lazy and not interested" is wrong and you're not thinking about limitations others (like me) may have at home. My set-up happens to be in a basement with under 8 feet ceilings. My receiver will get the Atmos update when it's available but with the low ceiling I won't be able to use ceiling speakers nor up firing. I'm interested in doing it right but can't according to what's been revealed.

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Old 08-21-2014, 08:13 AM
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That "too lazy and not interested" is wrong and you're not thinking about limitations others (like me) may have at home. My set-up happens to be in a basement with under 8 feet ceilings. My receiver will get the Atmos update when it's available but with the low ceiling I won't be able to use ceiling speakers nor up firing. I'm interested in doing it right but can't according to what's been revealed.

You can mount speakers on the wall than can be adjusted and bounced off the ceiling.
This certainly give you more control than an Atmos speaker.

If you cannot mount ceiling speakers and your surrounds are already high on the wall, read the impressions in the first post.
That attendee felt their system could benefit from Atmos, but because of the height of their surrounds, much of the effect heard at the demo remained when they returned home.

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Old 08-21-2014, 08:36 AM
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People who have heard them, have preferred "Simulated Height Speakers" to actual height speakers.
Some people. As with most things, preferences vary.
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post
This proves, that no matter the preference, the listeners COULD tell the difference.
Still fighting the straw man you erected.
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So, even if you do hear them (in a Dolby venue or not), that is not a reliable indicator of their performance in ones home.
That can be said about loudspeakers in general, not something new to Atmos.
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The efficacy of a particular solution cannot be determined by testimonials.
Nor by the type of speculation you're engaging in.
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Old 08-21-2014, 08:41 AM
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The upfiring speaker idea is stupid just like diffusive dipole rears are stupid compared to standard discreet multiple channels...

Dont let anyone convince you otherwise...

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Old 08-21-2014, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Still fighting the straw man you erected.
Actually, that was your straw man.
Dolby asks for a show of hands for who thinks the ceiling speakers are playing and no one raises their hands.
Logic indicated that they could tell the difference in NY and LA.

I am not sure if they could tell the difference between simulated height channels and actual height channels in England.
Being able to tell the difference is not the same as having a particular preference.
This seems inarguable, but unfortunately, that is not the case.

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That can be said about loudspeakers in general, not something new to Atmos. Nor by the type of speculation you're engaging in.
What type of speculation is going on. I looked around and could not find any?

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Last edited by RichB; 08-21-2014 at 09:15 AM.
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Old 08-21-2014, 09:18 AM
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Actually, that was your straw man.
Nope, I'm not the one repeatedly trying to give the impression that Dolby was trying to fool anyone. You're the one doing that and there is a string of your posts demonstrating it. Others have already called you on it.
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Logic indicated that they could tell the difference in NY and LA.
And there's the straw man. Take something that everyone in the NY and LA demos had said up front (difference was audible) and make it sound like an inconvenient truth that you're exposing. What's next? Are you going to try to convince folks that the demo used 4 height speakers at a time rather than 2?
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What type of speculation is going on.
When you say that the height drivers "could cause interference with the mains", are you basing that on measurements you've seen of those speakers or are you speculating?
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Old 08-21-2014, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by jbug View Post
That "too lazy and not interested" is wrong and you're not thinking about limitations others (like me) may have at home. My set-up happens to be in a basement with under 8 feet ceilings. My receiver will get the Atmos update when it's available but with the low ceiling I won't be able to use ceiling speakers nor up firing. I'm interested in doing it right but can't according to what's been revealed.
What is your ceiling height?
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Old 08-21-2014, 09:51 AM
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I am not sure if they could tell the difference between simulated height channels and actual height channels in England.

In London, the demo clip was played using one set of speakers and then played again using the other set. The audience was then invited to say if they thought the first playing of clip was Atmos Speakers or ceiling speakers and same for the second playing of the clip.

In the first demo I attended, nobody could reliably guess which set was which.

Note that this is not to say they were unable to differentiate one from another - they could not tell which set was being used. I think several people could hear that there was a difference but were unable to say with reliability that they were hearing A or B.

In the second demo, only one person was able to determine accurately which was which (me) - but that was because I was the only person present in the audience who had had Atmos speaker experience at the first demo and knew what to listen for.

What to listen for is this: Atmos speakers create an impression of slightly more spaciousness and diffusion at the slight expense of precision. Ceiling speakers create more precision, with slightly less diffusion. Neither is 'better' or worse than the other - they are both good, but different and it will depend on user preference which one is chosen.

It may also produce a different result in different rooms, with different ceiling heights, and different speaker setups in the ceiling. It may be possible to reduce the differences in presentation to negligible proportions, with some judicious speaker placement, speaker type etc.

Is there a point to this line of discussion?

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Old 08-21-2014, 10:45 AM
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Nope, I'm not the one repeatedly trying to give the impression that Dolby was trying to fool anyone. You're the one doing that and there is a string of your posts demonstrating it. Others have already called you on it. And there's the straw man. Take something that everyone in the NY and LA demos had said up front (difference was audible) and make it sound like an inconvenient truth that you're exposing. What's next? Are you going to try to convince folks that the demo used 4 height speakers at a time rather than 2? When you say that the height drivers "could cause interference with the mains", are you basing that on measurements you've seen of those speakers or are you speculating?
No, I am simply quoting the NY Demo post on the first page:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Henninger's impressions from the New York demo
The end of the home theater demo involved the "Leaf" trailer. Dolby did not tell the audience if the clip utilized the ceiling speakers or reflected sound. When it finished playing, the presenter asked for a show of hands if we thought the clip used ceiling speakers—nobody raised their hand. Evidently, the difference between overhead and reflected Atmos overhead channels was too obvious to fool anyone. [Editor's note: the same thing happened with the group in LA—no one thought the overhead speakers were being used.]
You see, when you quote, those are not my words.

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Last edited by RichB; 08-21-2014 at 11:03 AM.
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Old 08-21-2014, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
What to listen for is this: Atmos speakers create an impression of slightly more spaciousness and diffusion at the slight expense of precision. Ceiling speakers create more precision, with slightly less diffusion. Neither is 'better' or worse than the other - they are both good, but different and it will depend on user preference which one is chosen.

It may also produce a different result in different rooms, with different ceiling heights, and different speaker setups in the ceiling. It may be possible to reduce the differences in presentation to negligible proportions, with some judicious speaker placement, speaker type etc.

Is there a point to this line of discussion?
That is exactly my point.

It seems obvious that others beside the most vocal posters wish to determine:

1) Will Atmos represent a improvement to their HT that warrants the expenditure
2) Which approach to Ceiling channels might work best
3) Are their any downsides to the choices of one versus the other

These are not cut-and dry and experience thus far is very limited.

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Old 08-21-2014, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
If you are asking how to get the most seamless A/B demo, your intentions are right. But it's a moving target. The apparent location of the bounce changes slightly for every seat in the room, whereas with ceiling speakers the sound origination position remains fixed.

That aside, the concept is about co-locating the upfiring speaker with existing speakers for nicest integration. There seems to be a lot of latitude from where the height effects can effectively emanate, especially if it's the more diffused effect of the bouncers.

The real deal killer could be that the shape of a speaker hanging off the ceiling does not make for an ideal reflective surface, so it's best aimed elsewhere.
Roger, would you say Experimentation is key.
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Old 08-21-2014, 11:15 AM
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With stereo we have good left and right localization.
With surround we have good front/back localization.
With Atmos, could we get the following:

In a movie a man is seated in a chair in the middle of a room. A man standing behind him has a gun pointed at his head. The gun is two feet behind his head and two feet above his head. There is a metallic sound of the pistol being cocked.

In an Atmos well equipped Home Theater will we get good localization of that click?

It seems like in a large movie theater your seating position would a have a large impact on that scenario.

Your answers will directly impact my buying decisions, in a couple of years. I'm one of those that just replaced my AVR with an 11 channel non-Atmos AVR.

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Old 08-21-2014, 11:16 AM
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what is your ceiling height?

6' 10"
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Old 08-21-2014, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post
That is exactly my point.

It seems obvious that others beside the most vocal posters wish to determine:

1) Will Atmos represent a improvement to their HT that warrants the expenditure
2) Which approach to Ceiling channels might work best
3) Are their any downsides to the choices of one versus the other

These are not cut-and dry and experience thus far is very limited.

- Rich
Having heard Atmos for the home, I'd say:

1. Absolutely without question.
2. Both work very well indeed - which one is used will depend on individual circumstances.
3. Not really. They are just 'different' IMO and IME.

All of the above have been covered in this thread at some length, which is why I wondered why you keep on at it.
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Old 08-21-2014, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Collins View Post
With stereo we have good left and right localization.
With surround we have good front/back localization.
With Atmos, could we get the following:

In a movie a man is seated in a chair in the middle of a room. A man standing behind him has a gun pointed at his head. The gun is two feet behind his head and two feet above his head. There is a metallic sound of the pistol being cocked.

In an Atmos well equipped Home Theater will we get good localization of that click?

It seems like in a large movie theater your seating position would a have a large impact on that scenario.

Your answers will directly impact my buying decisions, in a couple of years. I'm one of those that just replaced my AVR with an 11 channel non-Atmos AVR.
I can’t say for that specific example, but in the demos I have heard, that type of experience was actually what was conveyed. This was best exemplified in the movie clip which I am not allowed to mention, but if you take a look at my first report, you will get a very good idea of how precise the localisation of intended sounds was.
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Old 08-21-2014, 11:36 AM
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6' 10"
That's unfortunate. I was hoping you would say something over 7 feet, which I suspect might be OK. In fact, 6ft 10in could be OK if you could use in-ceiling speakers. If I was in your position I would try to experiment in the least expensive way possible - a borrowed Atmos AVR (or one with a good return policy) and same for ceiling speakers. Not in-ceiling obviously but small on-ceiling designs like my Tannoy Di5 DCs. You might be pleasantly surprised. It may not be ideal, but it may also be better than what you have now. Only a demo in a similar room, or in your own room can determine it. Good luck.
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Old 08-21-2014, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
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I am simply quoting the NY Demo post on the first page:
No, you're attempting to give the impression that Dolby was trying to fool listeners, when they've said no such thing.
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You see, when you quote, those are not my words.
They're not Dolby's words either.

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Old 08-21-2014, 12:00 PM
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Location: Canada - West Island: Vancouver, South Direction: Go East, dts:x Films: Under the Skin, 3D, Birdman, X_Machina, The Zero Theorem, Interstellar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Collins View Post
With stereo we have good left and right localization.
With surround we have good front/back localization.
With Atmos, could we get the following:

In a movie a man is seated in a chair in the middle of a room. A man standing behind him has a gun pointed at his head. The gun is two feet behind his head and two feet above his head. There is a metallic sound of the pistol being cocked.

In an Atmos well equipped Home Theater will we get good localization of that click?

It seems like in a large movie theater your seating position would a have a large impact on that scenario.

Your answers will directly impact my buying decisions, in a couple of years. I'm one of those that just replaced my AVR with an 11 channel non-Atmos AVR.
It's all in the hands of the film mixing/recording engineer. ...In front of his mixing console and operating those sliders and all...

He now has the power/control to do it with Dolby Atmos, and some sound mixers will be better @ it than others.
They are going to have a blast now; lots of fun to be created. ...Hope they take best advantage from it, in cooperation with the movie directors.

There is no rush; things are getting slowly implemented, and with time it will get better as more AVR and SSP manufacturers will be implementing the most essential parameters for the very best Dolby Atmos experience @ home. ...And the film sound mixers are going to gain more experience as well @ integrating the Dolby Atmos Cinema experience into our home software (Blu-rays and all).

** Dolby Surround (upmixer) is an essential component of Dolby Atmos; they go hand in hand, without separation.

...All up to the film mixers, and AVR manufacturers... Dolby Atmos is here, the lines have been already written. We'll wait, and we'll keep an ear open from overhead...for that click of that trigger's pull, from behind and above our head.
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Old 08-21-2014, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
That's unfortunate. I was hoping you would say something over 7 feet, which I suspect might be OK. In fact, 6ft 10in could be OK if you could use in-ceiling speakers. If I was in your position I would try to experiment in the least expensive way possible - a borrowed Atmos AVR (or one with a good return policy) and same for ceiling speakers. Not in-ceiling obviously but small on-ceiling designs like my Tannoy Di5 DCs. You might be pleasantly surprised. It may not be ideal, but it may also be better than what you have now. Only a demo in a similar room, or in your own room can determine it. Good luck.

Thanks. My receiver (Onkyo 636) is getting the Atmos upgrade next month. My wife and I plan on moving in a couple of years so I'll be looking for homes with ceiling heights in mind.
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