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post #1 of 814 Old 09-05-2014, 11:47 PM - Thread Starter
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4K Blu-ray News—You Can Buy It For Christmas 2015



Some progress on the 4K Blu-ray format was announced at IFA, with a timeline to actual products. Should we get excited just yet?

The web is abuzz with a story from the huge IFA consumer-electronics trade show in Berlin last week that the Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA) announced release dates for the highly anticipated 4K Blu-ray disc format. The specification will be finalized by summer 2015, and actual product—both discs and players—should be available for the following holiday shopping season. That's more definitive than I've heard before, but it's at least six months behind the original timeline, so who knows if it will be delayed again?

The rest of the news is equally enticing, though not unexpected. Aside from a resolution of 3840x2160, the format will support 10-bit color, wide color gamut, and high dynamic range, though I haven't seen anything yet about exactly what color gamut or which HDR technology will be used. (The only gamut I've seen mentioned is BT.2020, but no current display can reproduce it; will there be any next year that can? I'm kinda doubtful. Also, 10 bits probably isn't enough for true HDR in any event.) It will also support frame rates up to 60 fps.

The codec will be H.265/HEVC (no surprise there), and current 50 GB dual-layer discs will work (which is a bit surprising). HEVC can theoretically increase compression efficiency by 50% over H.264/AVC, but current implementations achieve more like a 30% increase, depending on the content. Considering that the new content will have four times the resolution of 1080p along with 10-bit color and high frame rate (60 is a lot higher than 24), 50 GB won't hold all that much even with HEVC compression. There have been some reports of a triple-layer 100 GB Blu-ray format, but the BDA announcement did not confirm its use. Then there's the issue of bit rate—several stories have cited a bit rate of 50 Mbps at first, with rates up to 100 Mbps in the future. But will that require new hardware?

Speaking of hardware, here's a little-reported factoid that should be obvious (which could be why it's little-reported)—the new 4K Blu-ray discs will not be playable in current Blu-ray players, even 4K-upscaling models. The new discs will require a new player—and as I intimated before, perhaps the initial offerings will be limited to a bit rate of around 50 Mbps, which is highly hardware-dependent. When 100 Mbps chipsets become available, will we need to replace the player yet again?

Of course, most stories point out the increasing popularity of streaming, and how Netflix and other providers are starting to stream 4K, while TV manufacturers like Samsung are making deals with those providers to stream to their TVs. By contrast—and no surprise to AVS members—videophiles want the best possible picture and sound quality, and the only way to get it is on optical disc. Will that be enough to sustain a market for 4K Blu-ray? At least there's no format war this time around!

What's your take on the 4K Blu-ray news? Is it worth jumping up and down about yet?

Here are a few reports about the news from IFA:

CNET
MESA

HDTVtest

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post #2 of 814 Old 09-06-2014, 12:07 AM
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We have all been teased about this 4K media possibility for a very long time, long enough to have UDTV's widely sold with no content except for near 4k streaming, BD's mastered in 4K, and 1080P upscaled to 2160P (4Kx2K). I for one appreciate that we are moving forward.

Hoping to see some 4K BD player prototypes shown in the not so distance future.

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"The existing 709 color encoding system shows 30-35 percent of the visual color spectrum," Martin said. BT.2020 can "render about 70-80 percent. As TVs migrate you'll be able to detect those colors," he said. Blu-ray players will be able to detect BT.2020 support and use the better color gamut if it's available, but today's TVs don't yet have the feature, he said.
Yet another thing to be concerned with besides HDMI 2.0, HDCP 2.x against 4K Blu-ray.
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post #3 of 814 Old 09-06-2014, 12:09 AM
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They need to finalize the display standards first, I gant get excited about 4K/UHD until we are all in the same page. Good article none the less.
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post #4 of 814 Old 09-06-2014, 12:10 AM
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The Blu Ray double layer limitation of 50GB is the Big Problem. Already now you need multiple Discs to correctly show some 3D Blu Rays. I don't see myself changing the Disc every 30 minutes or so because of the Format Limitations. 100 GB Blu Ray Discs are an absolute must!
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post #5 of 814 Old 09-06-2014, 12:15 AM
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It will be interesting to see how this format manage to position itself in a world adopting streaming.

But what about content? Very few movies are actually mastered in 4K or even filmed in it. Will everything just be studio-upscaled so they can make us double-dip? If thats the case, why not also pre-interpolate everything into 60fps while they are at it? That would likely make more of a difference quality-wise.

Also, if 50 gig discs will indeed be supported, how will this affect audio quality, when video takes up a larger portion of the disc?
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post #6 of 814 Old 09-06-2014, 12:32 AM
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If the 50gb discs continue to get used for 4k then how many discs will it take for The Lord of the Rings trilogy extended editions? Each movie now is already split between 2 discs. Add in 4x resolution....

Not to mention the new Hobbit movies with their 48fps film rates. Add 10 bit video to that and in 4k and add Atmos or Auro 3D metadata and you run out of room real quick I would think.
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post #7 of 814 Old 09-06-2014, 12:33 AM
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All we really need is 1080p, 10bit, 4:4:4, HFR, and Wider Gamut.
This will bring the new BluRay standard closer to Digital Cinema quality.
Taking into account that 99.99999999% of digital cinema masters are 2K.

Higher temporal resolution resulting from higher frame rate is where the biggest improvement lies.
The instance the image moves, our precious 4K becomes a blurry mess no better than a DVD.

The studios will have the option to use the native 2K (HD) resolution but with the added and improved features of 4K BluRay.
So 50GB disc is enough for a 1080p, 10bit, 4:4:4, HFR, HEVC compressed movie no problem.

I hope they'll call it BluRay 2.0 and not 4K, as not all movies will be 4K but will use the features of the new format.
This will give the studios the option to re-release the movie but at its native cinema quality without having to upscale the master to 4K.

A great idea would be that the movie box would have small icons of what features it uses.

If the movie box will tell me:
"Native Cinema Resolution"
"Original Film Colors"

I'd buy it in a heart beat.

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post #8 of 814 Old 09-06-2014, 01:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
The codec will be H.265/HEVC (no surprise there), and current 50 GB dual-layer discs will work (which is a bit surprising). HEVC can theoretically increase compression efficiency by 50% over H.264/AVC, but current implementations achieve more like a 30% increase, depending on the content. Considering that the new content will have four times the resolution of 1080p along with 10-bit color and high frame rate (60 is a lot higher than 24), 50 GB won't hold all that much even with HEVC compression. There have been some reports of a triple-layer 100 GB Blu-ray format, but the BDA announcement did not confirm its use. Then there's the issue of bit rate—several stories have cited a bit rate of 50 Mbps at first, with rates up to 100 Mbps in the future. But will that require new hardware?
10 bit helps a lot for compression but just 50 Mbit that not a lot in my eyes.
so they may plan to use normal BD disk that's interesting. theoretically every current PC BD drive can read them but there will be a new copy protection so people have to buy new hardware just for this. and if this copy protection needs internet this should be the nail in the coffin for physical media let's see.
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post #9 of 814 Old 09-06-2014, 01:14 AM
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Interesting news, if they can get out movies I want I'm in
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post #10 of 814 Old 09-06-2014, 01:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
10 bit helps a lot for compression but just 50 Mbit that not a lot in my eyes.
so they may plan to use normal BD disk that's interesting. theoretically every current PC BD drive can read them but there will be a new copy protection so people have to buy new hardware just for this. and if this copy protection needs internet this should be the nail in the coffin for physical media let's see.
Physical media will be around a bit longer, for many people streaming 4K will be a non-starter, at that's before data caps.
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post #11 of 814 Old 09-06-2014, 01:44 AM
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So existing PS3's and even PS4's cannot play this new format?
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post #12 of 814 Old 09-06-2014, 02:57 AM
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Perhaps the delay is for the higher capacity disks, 300GB, 500GB and 1TB:

http://www.digitaltrends.com/computi...storage-discs/

http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/17...xt-gen-blu-ray

Whatever the case there are still a number of technologies that need to come together to make UHD work.

Once a UHD disk format is decided I expect:
  • It will make a good anchor for UHD displays.
  • It will set a high standard for streaming tech to strive for much like HD-BD does now.
  • It will set a high standard for broadcast to strive for like BD does now.
This disk format won't effect just video it may also impact gaming and perhaps other tech too.

Thanks Scott and cheers!
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4K players, 4K compatible AVRs, 4K displays, 4K content, possibly upgrading to Atmos AVR + extra speakers. Just how much disposable $$$ does the industry think that people have? I'm not against better looking and sounding content, but really...

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Originally Posted by mhobart View Post
Just how much disposable $$$ does the industry think that people have? I'm not against better looking and sounding content, but really...
Nobody pushes you to buy anything or jump on the hype wagon, BluRay V1 is still here for many years to come.
Personally, I want to see some real value before I adopt BluRay V2.

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post #15 of 814 Old 09-06-2014, 03:41 AM
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Nobody pushes you to buy anything, BluRay v1 is still here for many years to come.
I absolutely understand that. I just think that a lot of people will be waiting until the various standards settle down and prices drop below the level where only the early adopters can afford. I tend to hold on to my own equipment either wears out or that I really need to add something that is offered by current equipment that was unavailable with the older equipment. When I do buy new equipment I do tend to buy upper end equipment which is likely to last for quite a while.

I guess that I'm just wishing that I did something like win a lottery so that I could update equipment more frequently - just a gearhead I guess :-)

I have quite a bit of BluRay content myself and also older DVD content which has not come out on BluRay (and unlikely to do so).

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^ ^ This should make you feel better.

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Backwards compatibility is awesome
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What about native support for 21:9/Cinemascope?????
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post #19 of 814 Old 09-06-2014, 05:24 AM
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Personally, for those who value quality, I can't see how this could be anything but good news. Initially, there will be very little software and everything will be expensive but this isn't any different from when DVD or BD was introduced. At least this gives us something worth talking about around here . Literally, we could be scraping the sky with this when it shakes out. Of course, I'm not naïve regarding the fact that only demo material and blockbusters that look and sound great but may or may not be good films are what we will get at first.


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post #20 of 814 Old 09-06-2014, 05:31 AM
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I thought 10 bit panel was minimum for HDR?
Scott your saying the panel has to be bigger bit.
Not many 10 bits out there. How many years will it be for higher bit panels to support HDR?
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post #21 of 814 Old 09-06-2014, 05:36 AM
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Great! I can buy Star Wars again.

VHS
Laserdisc
DVD
Bluray
4K Bluray
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post #22 of 814 Old 09-06-2014, 05:56 AM
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I'm hopeful that this might revive the b&m video rental business. Streaming is my least favorite way of watching and the RedBox kiosk are horrible. I really don't see the major ISPs being able to provide the bandwidth to support 4k streaming for a majority...... yet anyways. I truly miss going to the video store to get a weekends worth of Blu-rays.
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I've been encoding a lot of HEVC recently....trust me, 50GB is plenty of space, even for 4K. The only movies that would require more than that are really grainy films, but that's just distortion anyway, it doesn't need to be perfect.
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post #24 of 814 Old 09-06-2014, 06:15 AM
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I've been encoding a lot of HEVC recently....trust me, 50GB is plenty of space, even for 4K. The only movies that would require more than that are really grainy films, but that's just distortion anyway, it doesn't need to be perfect.
Did you encode at 10 bits 4:2:0 with a P3 or BT2020 gamut (which is what is suggested at the moment as the upcoming initial specs for Bluray 4K) from a P3 master? Because that makes a big difference vs rec 709 8 bits 4:2:0 from a rec709 master. Also did you add the overhead for HD Audio (especially Dolby TrueHD) so we can have Dolby Atmos sound as well?


35-50Gb is what the current 4K Sony movies require on their server, and they are rec-709 420 8bits with 5.1 (no HD audio) sound AFAIK, which is obviously lousy and certainly not better in my book than a well mastered (ie from a 4K master) well upscaled 1080p bluray with HD Audio.

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post #25 of 814 Old 09-06-2014, 06:15 AM
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I've been encoding a lot of HEVC recently....trust me, 50GB is plenty of space, even for 4K. The only movies that would require more than that are really grainy films, but that's just distortion anyway, it doesn't need to be perfect.
Sounds to me like the UHD/4K version of a movie you get on disc will be the same version you stream.

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post #26 of 814 Old 09-06-2014, 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Sounds to me like the UHD/4K version of a movie you get on disc will be the same version you stream.

Only if you have a super good internet connection with at least a steady 15Mb/s, otherwise you get stuttering on top


Seriously, it should be better than streaming even if the initial specs are underwhelming, but not necessarily better than a good upscaled bluray especially if a two hour movie with HD Audio is squished into a single 50Gb disc. HEVC is only at best twice as efficient as h264, not four times.

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post #27 of 814 Old 09-06-2014, 06:30 AM
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Not many 10 bits out there.
We are stuck with 8-bit (god knows why) from 1987 VGA with 255 steps of grey which supposed to be smooth and seamless transition from black to white.
Its definitely NOT, dithering helps but its not implemented properly anywhere besides madVR.

Its the end of 2014 and I want my 10bit NOW.
2015 + 8bit =
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post #28 of 814 Old 09-06-2014, 06:31 AM
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Sounds to me like the UHD/4K version of a movie you get on disc will be the same version you stream.
That's great. It helps the transition to digital.
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post #29 of 814 Old 09-06-2014, 06:33 AM
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We are stuck with 8-bit from 1987 VGA with 255 steps of grey which supposed to be smooth and seamless transition from black to white.
Its definitely NOT, dithering helps but its not implemented properly anywhere besides madVR.

Its the end of 2014 and I want my 10bit NOW.
2015 + 8bit =

For the 10bits support in MadVR, ask Madshi, I'm sure he's working on it.


Upcoming GPUs will handle HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2 and I'm sure the drivers will support 10bits as well. HEVC h/w acceleration would be nice too.

Re the panels, most high-end projectors like the JVCs with e-shift or the SONY 4K models support 10 bits already, so we're ready.


Not sure about UHDTVs or consumer monitors if that's what you use though.

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post #30 of 814 Old 09-06-2014, 06:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimA View Post
Great! I can buy Star Wars again.

VHS
Laserdisc
DVD
Bluray
4K Bluray
Oh that's nothing.

Wait for it........

Terminator 4K super xLarge steel case signed by Arnie with stickers,poster, and movie prop.
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I'd love to get my hands on a Blu Monster's Ball.-LilStinky

Refering to a possible release of said movie on BD LOL
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