DTS:X Immersive Sound Format Due March 2015 - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 3271 Old 01-01-2015, 01:51 AM
 
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
I'm already a fan of immersive sound in the home, and I enjoy what I hear with Dolby Atmos. However, because DTS has such a commanding lead in the Blu-ray market—thanks to its HD master audio format—I suspect the launch of DTS:X will act as a catalyst for widespread adoption of immersive sound. Once mainstream AVRs feature logos for both DTS:X and Atmos, I expect object-based immersive audio from DTS and Dolby to become the de facto industry standards for enjoying surround-sound at home.

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First post of 2015

I'm happy about getting more object-oriented encodings, because they simply do not matter to the end user. If your AVR supports one, it could support the other, and if it doesn't or won't, just don't buy it. What I'm saying here, is that there is no technical reason for any particular OO encoding to favor one speaker placement vs another. I'm not even sure if the arrangement for 5.1 is the ideal. But since objects in 3D space don't give a hoot about where your speakers are, your receiver should be able to rasterize / render the mono+3d position metadata audio streams to whereever your speakers are in relation to the listener.

Of course some speaker placements are better than others to achieve a bigger or more enveloping / encompassing sound field, but that's just basic field theory. Beyond that you could easily imagine placing speakers in your home to optimize around the sound dispersion issues that the inherent geometry introduces, instead of trying to compensate for them (although in reality you could do both). But for actually rendering the object-oriented data in 3D, it's very well understood how to pan a sound to various speakers placed in some arbitrary configuration. (which in practice it is, since no two home theaters have precisely the same geometry or speaker placements, and object oriented sound standards shouldn't care whatsoever).
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post #32 of 3271 Old 01-01-2015, 02:49 AM
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I would be quite surprised if the current range of Atmos receivers (even the onkyo's) couldnt handle dts x with firmware.

As for dolby vs dts i don't really care what wrapping is on my package, as long as the content is up to spec.

As i now have a legacy receiver I just hope that the dts implemtation has a similar HD core track as Atmos does.
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post #33 of 3271 Old 01-01-2015, 05:14 AM
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A firmware update for existing Neo:X (Upmixer) on legacy AVR's would put the cat amongst the pigeons and give DTS a major jump on the competition.
Discrete DTSX on any new / recent AVR's
Just saying
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post #34 of 3271 Old 01-01-2015, 05:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Aras_Volodka View Post
Please do ask... I'd be really happy if the X5200W could upgrade to DTS:X... crossing fingers. The X5200W was a very huge investment for me, it would be a massive disappointment if it won't

If a disc comes out in DTS:X format the Atmos processing won't be able to decode it in any way, correct? Man that would suck if the BD discs were all just DTS:X if the BD/ no more Atmos releases.

I don't see why so many people are resentful of Atmos early adopters... I think we all benefit from 3D sound no matter what format is used. If a receiver can house all 3 then who cares what format one uses?
I am still running 3.1 lol I almost put in surround speakers last year, but the only solution that I was going to be happy with was going to be in wall surrounds that matched my mains(Hsu). I decided spending a good chunk of money to pay someone to cut big holes in my walls in my living room and run wires was not worth it as I am working in moving my stuff downstairs to a theater room this coming year. I still really miss not having surround speakers in my living room though. I think I would be happy for the relatively long term with any kind of 5.2 capability.
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post #35 of 3271 Old 01-01-2015, 06:11 AM
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I think no matter what happens, either firmware updates or an entire new unit (which we all hope not) I will still continue to buy last years models at the discounted price :P

My justification being that I can gather a years worth of reviews and pick the best out there at a discounted price - This year (woah, sorry guys, LAST year in 2014) I purchased the Denon x4000.

So I suppose I do get lucky when updates and releases happen like this. Suppose I purchased a new Atmos enabled unit and DTS:X doesn't have firmware updates...

Being that the new "fad" is Atmos enabled speakers, something truly genius to me personally would be Atmos enabled speakers with DTS:X processing. If they release they're own "enabled" speakers, no one will bite because the people who upgraded to Atmos might have empty wallets and are busy building up the bank again. Just my $.02.
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post #36 of 3271 Old 01-01-2015, 06:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by WebEffect View Post
There's a difference between creating a brand new technology such as when moving from a tube TV to a flat one, and simply adding more speakers and more surround processing to what was already very immersive surround sound.

Can't you see that they are adding surround to surround, for the sole purpose of grabbing money? It's like introducing wetter water! Of course some people will far for it, sadly. And some already have.
I guess you don't understand object-based audio formats.

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post #37 of 3271 Old 01-01-2015, 06:26 AM
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If DTS:X is based on DTS-MDA which is open source, won't DTS:X be open source as well then? Could be a nice gift for the HTPC crowd if nothing else.
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post #38 of 3271 Old 01-01-2015, 07:32 AM
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Lately, it seems there may be a fine line between innovation and greed. Widescreens from tubes = innovation. DVD from VHS = innovation. Consumer sales have proven that. Blu-ray from DVD? Not so much. DVD after 8+ years still outsells BR by 70% to 30%. Atmos and X? Innovation...arguably not. How's that 'innovation' of 3D working? 4K TV's aren't selling as well as CE companies wanted, and those that buy them are still watching 720p and 1080i content on cable and satellite. Innovation vs. greed.
I agree with the innovation vs. greed assessment. While my pre/pro is a few years old, it was always my intention to wait Atmos out because of DTS and 4k issues. I am glad I did. However, having had the pleasure of listening to Mark's Atmos system, I can assure you that the object based systems are a real innovation for HT. it is simply superb. Whether it will prove to be a big money maker for Dolby is another question.
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post #39 of 3271 Old 01-01-2015, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by PeterTHX View Post
Typical DTS. Wait for Dolby to blaze the trail and then follow up and claim yours is the "best" and watch the fanboys eat it up.
And we care, because...?
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post #40 of 3271 Old 01-01-2015, 07:37 AM
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What are current Atmos owners doing? They are enjoying their Atmos and DSU and will continue to enjoy it regardless of what comes down the road.

With four movies released in Atmos so far...all of them turkeys. Lots of enjoyment there.
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post #41 of 3271 Old 01-01-2015, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Aras_Volodka View Post
Please do ask... I'd be really happy if the X5200W could upgrade to DTS:X... crossing fingers. The X5200W was a very huge investment for me, it would be a massive disappointment if it won't

If a disc comes out in DTS:X format the Atmos processing won't be able to decode it in any way, correct? Man that would suck if the BD discs were all just DTS:X if the BD/ no more Atmos releases.

I don't see why so many people are resentful of Atmos early adopters... I think we all benefit from 3D sound no matter what format is used. If a receiver can house all 3 then who cares what format one uses?

Why did you adopt with a very expensive receiver before it really became a standard? The real issue is that you made a very expensive "vote" for Atmos before is was ready, or even clearly explained.


It's pretty obvious that something obvious, like object-based mixing, was going to interest various companies and engineering groups. With patent wars and licensing schemes, it's best to let everybody involve have their phone-booth knife fights before sinking a bundle into one contestant or another.


We are all marketing fodder. I don't think that Dolby, a reputable and innovative company, deliberately lied to anyone. Quite the opposite; they made it clear that they are selling licenses to manufacturers, for a proprietary scheme, just as they've done for decades. But why buy into that? They were hoping they could do it again, and it your case, it worked.


It really creates hurdles for the consumer, no matter how financially well off they are. I hope there is a path to compatibility for you, but Dolby is notorious for cutting those off to ensure licensing revenue. While I would like to see them get paid for a nice piece of engineering work, telling me to toss my old equipment before HDCP 2.2 (another licensing hustle) is settled, simply isn't good technical or financial advice.


The whole thing smacks of desperation, now cascaded down to you.
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post #42 of 3271 Old 01-01-2015, 07:54 AM
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So does Dolby hold the patent for the "up-firing speakers sonic notch so you don't need physical ceiling speakers" thingy? If so, could be a big disadvantage for DTS .

I see dead pixels.......
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post #43 of 3271 Old 01-01-2015, 07:58 AM
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was pretty close to running out and adding Atmos. Considering the movie selection and the fact that the formats are still developing, I have decided against early adoption. I'm very interested in seeing how this shakes out, and still think I eventually will move towards object based audio, just not yet.

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post #44 of 3271 Old 01-01-2015, 08:14 AM
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So the word progress doesn't enter into your world. Everything has to be some big leap in order to get your approval[innovation]? Luckily the real world is something else.

So, it's 'progress' to add ceiling speakers so the helicopter goes from the ceiling to the right surround, instead of one of my fronts to my right surround? Hahahhahaha. It's greed more than progress in that scenario. CE companies simply are searching for income streams. And, regarding my definition of 'progress', until you've seen my hardware in both of my Home Theaters, it would be best served to shut your mouth!
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post #45 of 3271 Old 01-01-2015, 08:24 AM
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The greed vs innovation statement is a little off. They aren't jacking up heating oil prices and letting people freeze, they are making new things with new features. If they were bricking old AVR's and requiring us to make new purchases it would be a different story. In this case we all decide what we want and what we can afford.
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post #46 of 3271 Old 01-01-2015, 08:29 AM
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Whether it will prove to be a big money maker for Dolby is another question.
Which is the only point I've been trying to make here. We will agree to disagree on the innovation part....for now. I hope that there will be at least a small market for those who can and want to take advantage of this object-based tech. My concern would be that not enough people care to warrant companies to continue to include the latest and greatest in their hardware. The point of diminishing returns may be quite strong on this one. Much like OLED will be, in all likelihood. Cheers!
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post #47 of 3271 Old 01-01-2015, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by 5150zx View Post
So, it's 'progress' to add ceiling speakers so the helicopter goes from the ceiling to the right surround, instead of one of my fronts to my right surround? Hahahhahaha. It's greed more than progress in that scenario. CE companies simply are searching for income streams. And, regarding my definition of 'progress', until you've seen my hardware in both of my Home Theaters, it would be best served to shut your mouth!
Have you ever listened to any of new object based audio options in your "theaters"?? If you haven't, then everything you are saying is pure speculation, worthless.
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post #48 of 3271 Old 01-01-2015, 08:37 AM
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The greed vs innovation statement is a little off. They aren't jacking up heating oil prices and letting people freeze, they are making new things with new features. If they were bricking old AVR's and requiring us to make new purchases it would be a different story. In this case we all decide what we want and what we can afford.
Valid point, thank you. Your last sentence says it all, which is my original point and one I stand by. People here care, most (for whatever reasons), simply don't care.
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post #49 of 3271 Old 01-01-2015, 08:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 5150zx View Post
So, it's 'progress' to add ceiling speakers so the helicopter goes from the ceiling to the right surround, instead of one of my fronts to my right surround? Hahahhahaha. It's greed more than progress in that scenario. CE companies simply are searching for income streams. And, regarding my definition of 'progress', until you've seen my hardware in both of my Home Theaters, it would be best served to shut your mouth!
That's your opinion, but I think it's an unfair description of what you gain from Atmos and other immersive audio formats. The way ambience is rendered has a lot to do with how it affects your perception, it's not just about discrete objects whizzing around.

I get to hear and see the best of the best in home theaters. And I think immersive audio is a big upgrade in terms of the overall experience. That's my opinion after hearing about fifteen different Atmos systems since September and comparing them (or rather comparing notes) to numerous top-notch home theaters running 7.1 audio.
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post #50 of 3271 Old 01-01-2015, 08:51 AM
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Have you ever listened to any of new object based audio options in your "theaters"?? If you haven't, then everything you are saying is pure speculation, worthless.
As worthless as anything you contribute. Most who comment here speculate and opine. Get over it!
I appreciate this kind of stuff like most do................HERE on AVS. The one percenters, the rest listen through TV speakers and sound bars and watch movies (more than ever) on tablets the size of my hand. And that isn't speculation. Cheers.
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post #51 of 3271 Old 01-01-2015, 09:01 AM - Thread Starter
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As worthless as anything you contribute. Most who comment here speculate and opine. Get over it!
I appreciate this kind of stuff like most do................HERE on AVS. The one percenters, the rest listen through TV speakers and sound bars and watch movies (more than ever) on tablets the size of my hand. And that isn't speculation. Cheers.
Yeah but there's nothing that says you can't have Atmos built into a TV or soundbar. In fact, bouncing sound off the ceiling should be an easy task for a TV. And a soundbar with wireless surround speakers could easily support Atmos 5.1.2 as well. There are plenty of ways to commodify it. So perhaps mainstream acceptance isn't such a long shot, its more a matter of waiting for the processors required to run immersive sound to become cheap enough to use in mainstream products.

It's no coincidence that Atmos rolled out as a high-priced upgrade. It is in early-adopter territory right now. But the long-term prospect is better than you'd think, especially for the streaming/compressed flavor of Atmos that will use Dolby Digital Plus. That format has significant market penetration thanks to netflix, Vudu, Amazon, and others. It would make sense for future TVs to natively support the object-based formats in some manner.
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post #52 of 3271 Old 01-01-2015, 09:02 AM
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If money is tight for a particular consumer, why purchase an AVR with only Atmos and then complain when DTS announces DTS:X? Anyone who hangs out on AVS and has some knowledge of surround formats knows that an object-based codec from DTS is inevitable following Atmos. Atmos software has not been available on a large percentage of titles up to this point. So if money was tight, why the rush to pick up an Atmos receiver/preamp?


Impatience.


...and there is a price to pay for impatience. DTS doesn't owe anyone with an Atmos receiver an upgrade. The manufacturers of those receivers don't owe the consumer an upgrade. As a consumer, we can't know for sure that the internals of these devices have the basis to support DTS:X. Wishful thinking that could be possible. The first Dolby Digital receivers on the market didn't have an upgrade path for inclusion of DTS. There is a price to pay as an early adopter. If we want it now then we will get our immediate results and be happy with it. Knowing that DTS:X was inevitable, I wouldn't dare place the blame on any other company for needing to purchase a new unit if I wanted DTS:X as well. Only my impatience would be to blame.


Let those who don't mind swapping gear in short time be the early adopters - there are plenty of them out there. If planning on keeping your purchase for a long time, be sensible and patient. Wait for a device that implements both technologies to your satisfaction.
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post #53 of 3271 Old 01-01-2015, 09:05 AM
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That's your opinion, but I think it's an unfair description of what you gain from Atmos and other immersive audio formats. The way ambience is rendered has a lot to do with how it affects your perception, it's not just about discrete objects whizzing around.

I get to hear and see the best of the best in home theaters. And I think immersive audio is a big upgrade in terms of the overall experience. That's my opinion after hearing about fifteen different Atmos systems since September and comparing them (or rather comparing notes) to numerous top-notch home theaters running 7.1 audio.
And your experience with these formats Mark is the one I respect the most. I just like to play devil's advocate. It's an uphill battle to be sure for these new techs to gain footholds nowadays. I love this stuff like others here do. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience with us, I appreciate it.
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post #54 of 3271 Old 01-01-2015, 09:10 AM
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As worthless as anything you contribute. Most who comment here speculate and opine. Get over it!
I appreciate this kind of stuff like most do................HERE on AVS. The one percenters, the rest listen through TV speakers and sound bars and watch movies (more than ever) on tablets the size of my hand. And that isn't speculation. Cheers.
Why would you tell someone to shut their mouth then, if this is the kind of stuff you appreciate? It was that remark that prompted my response, there's no need to be nasty.
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post #55 of 3271 Old 01-01-2015, 09:14 AM
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From another thread:

Let me rephrase a bit:

-the early adopters didn't get "screwed," they still have great AVRs with Dolby Atmos that are probably much better than their legacy AVRs

-I've only heard Atmos in theaters but if the home version is as good as the commercial version, then it must be awesome

-but the issue is this: EVERYONE on this forum knew that DTS wouldn't sit idly by and would most likely release their competing sound object tech in 2015 and that it was probably going to require buying another AVR in lieu of a software upgrade for Atmos only AVRs

-that's not the only issue: if I'm not mistaken, there is no current Atmos AVR that also incorporates high bandwidth HDMI 2.0 (18 GBPS), HDCP 2.2, and customizable music/movie DSU, all of which I guarantee will be incorporated in 2nd and 3rd gen AVRs maybe as soon as 2015

-you really have to be cautious about the "singing the heaven's praises" posts/reviews of various products from certain posters here; I think it was proven a few years back that there are company paid shills in AVS pretending to be everyday A/V consumers/enthusiasts

-lastly, I hate to be pessimistic but like home 3D, I predict that both Dolby Atmos and DTS:X will be extremely niche (less than 5% of the addressable market); I just don't see the vast majority of mainstream middle America tearing up their ceilings to install speakers or upgrading all four of their floor speakers just for a few titles such as Transformers, Expendables, or Step Up
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post #56 of 3271 Old 01-01-2015, 09:22 AM - Thread Starter
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From another thread:

Let me rephrase a bit:

-the early adopters didn't get "screwed," they still have great AVRs with Dolby Atmos that are probably much better than their legacy AVRs

-I've only heard Atmos in theaters but if the home version is as good as the commercial version, than it must be awesome

-but the issue is this: EVERYONE on this forum knew that DTS wouldn't sit idly by and would most likely release their competing sound object tech in 2015 and that it was probably going to require buying another AVR in lieu of a software upgrade for Atmos only AVRs

-that's not the only issue: if I'm not mistaken, there is no current Atmos AVR that also incorporates high bandwidth HDMI 2.0 (18 GBPS), HDCP 2.2, and customizable music/movie DSU, all of which I guarantee will be incorporated in 2nd and 3rd gen AVRs maybe as soon as 2015

-you really have to be cautious about the "singing the heaven's praises" posts/reviews of various products from certain posters here; I think it was proven a few years back that there are company paid shills in AVS pretending to be everyday A/V consumers/enthusiasts

-lastly, I hate to be pessimistic but like home 3D, I predict that both Dolby Atmos and DTS:X will be extremely niche (less than 5% of the addressable market); I just don't see the vast majority of mainstream middle America tearing up their ceilings to install speakers or upgrading all four of their floor speakers just for a few titles such as Transformers, Expendables, or Step Up
I don't see most people doing that, either. But it's a certainty that object-based formats will supplant channel-based formats, especially because backwards-compatibility seems to be part of the plan. When TVs and soundbars and Sonos start supporting DTS:X and Atmos, it'll achieve total ubiquity. Will people get a good experience from a TV that has upward-firing speakers, or a soundbar that does the same thing? Not compared to dropping five grand on a dedicated system, but that will always be the case.
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post #57 of 3271 Old 01-01-2015, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Yeah but there's nothing that says you can't have Atmos built into a TV or soundbar. In fact, bouncing sound off the ceiling should be an easy task for a TV. And a soundbar with wireless surround speakers could easily support Atmos 5.1.2 as well. There are plenty of ways to commodify it. So perhaps mainstream acceptance isn't such a long shot, its more a matter of waiting for the processors required to run immersive sound to become cheap enough to use in mainstream products.

It's no coincidence that Atmos rolled out as a high-priced upgrade. It is in early-adopter territory right now. But the long-term prospect is better than you'd think, especially for the streaming/compressed flavor of Atmos that will use Dolby Digital Plus. That format has significant market penetration thanks to netflix, Vudu, Amazon, and others.
And there in lies the rub...will CE companies have the patience to EDUCATE the public as to what they are selling is worthwhile and the patience to wait until prices are affordable to the masses? Or will they throw something else out there in a couple of years and hope it sticks due to a lack of patience? TV's are a prime example of this over the last several years: DLP, LCD, Plasma > LCD/LED > 4K UHD LED > OLED, QDOT > Etc. More confusion for mass consumer adoption. People simply get tired of it after awhile and feel companies are doing nothing more than a money grab. I am happy that it is and will be available for those that want to invest in the tech.
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post #58 of 3271 Old 01-01-2015, 09:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 5150zx View Post
And there in lies the rub...will CE companies have the patience to EDUCATE the public as to what they are selling is worthwhile and the patience to wait until prices are affordable to the masses? Or will they throw something else out there in a couple of years and hope it sticks due to a lack of patience? TV's are a prime example of this over the last several years: DLP, LCD, Plasma > LCD/LED > 4K UHD LED > OLED, QDOT > Etc. More confusion for mass consumer adoption. People simply get tired of it after awhile and feel companies are doing nothing more than a money grab. I am happy that it is and will be available for those that want to invest in the tech.
I don't see TV makers getting into proprietary audio formats. My guess is DTS and Dolby built their formats to last. This move to object-oriented audio is not a flash in the pan. It's a fundamental shift, the kind of thing that happens perhaps once every decade, or less.

Mark Henninger, Senior Editor at AVS Forum
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post #59 of 3271 Old 01-01-2015, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by blu-dog-avs View Post
Why did you adopt with a very expensive receiver before it really became a standard? The real issue is that you made a very expensive "vote" for Atmos before is was ready, or even clearly explained.


It's pretty obvious that something obvious, like object-based mixing, was going to interest various companies and engineering groups. With patent wars and licensing schemes, it's best to let everybody involve have their phone-booth knife fights before sinking a bundle into one contestant or another.


We are all marketing fodder. I don't think that Dolby, a reputable and innovative company, deliberately lied to anyone. Quite the opposite; they made it clear that they are selling licenses to manufacturers, for a proprietary scheme, just as they've done for decades. But why buy into that? They were hoping they could do it again, and it your case, it worked.


It really creates hurdles for the consumer, no matter how financially well off they are. I hope there is a path to compatibility for you, but Dolby is notorious for cutting those off to ensure licensing revenue. While I would like to see them get paid for a nice piece of engineering work, telling me to toss my old equipment before HDCP 2.2 (another licensing hustle) is settled, simply isn't good technical or financial advice.


The whole thing smacks of desperation, now cascaded down to you.
I didn't have much of a choice actually (depending on how you look at it). I have a kid coming on the way, 2 months from now. In Autumn I did a mental tug of war, and had even settled on not buying the X5200W thinking I would wait until early 2015 or even summer to get an AVR... but with the baby coming I wanted to make sure I could enjoy 7.1.4, because something tells me I won't be able to do much of that after the baby arrives. I was coming from a really outdated system, a junky 5.1 receiver that was 12 years old. Adding 6 speakers when there is a baby in the house would have been a tough sell, even now I'm getting hassled about re-arranging the living room (my girlfriend really doesn't like how there are speakers in the back of the room behind the couch).
I was also thinking about waiting on 4k... but everything I want out of 4k won't be available for a few years, so I went with the best plasma tv I could afford to live in the glory of 1080p land for a while... (I was coming from a 40" to a 65", and I went from 1" speakers to a large array of massive floor speakers... so I did a full upgrade of my HT this year). So the TV is what settled my mental tug of war, I changed my mind and am milking every viewing for what it's worth.

Given all that I don't feel like I made a mistake, seeing as how every film sounds 20x better with the DSU capability... but I would be really happy if DTS:X was a firmware upgrade. I'm thinking I might not be able to do much loud movie watching for a while... so I'll upgrade again in 3 to 5 years or so... but I'm starting to think that even if BD discs aren't all in Atmos... perhaps at least some of them might... or could be available in dual format?
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post #60 of 3271 Old 01-01-2015, 09:38 AM
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Let's nail this down, how many months till we have DTS:X product available for purchase?
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