Sony VPL-VW675ES 4K HDR Projector at CEDIA 2016 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 39 Old 09-14-2016, 04:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Sony VPL-VW675ES 4K HDR Projector at CEDIA 2016

At Sony's press conference today, the company unveiled several new products, including the Sony VPL-VW675ES projector, which supplants the VW665ES introduced just last year. Like the company's other high-end projectors, the imaging panels in the VW675ES are true 4K—4096 x2160—using reflective SXRD (Silicon X-tal [crystal] Reflective Display) technology, which is Sony's version of LCoS (liquid crystal on silicon).



Also like other Sony projectors, this one supports high dynamic range (HDR) in the form of HDR10. But it's also the first to support hybrid log gamma (HLG), the HDR format developed by the BBC and NHK for use in broadcast. This capability will be delivered in a firmware update as soon as the HDMI spec for it is finalized.

Sony claims a peak light output of 1800 lumens and a dynamic contrast ratio of 350,000:1. The light source is a long-lasting lamp with high brightness retention and a rated lifespan of 6000 hours in Low mode. For 3D buffs, the VW675ES provides RF-based 3D capabilities.

The VPL-VW675ES will be available in November for a list price of $15,000, the same price as the VW665ES it replaces. Not bad for true 4K, HDR10, and HLG!

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post #2 of 39 Old 09-14-2016, 04:51 PM
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Does this support 4K HDR 10-bit 60p Gaming and Video/content playback?

I know previous model (665) only supported 4K HDR 10-bit at 24p which is only good for UHD movies.

Thanks!
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post #3 of 39 Old 09-14-2016, 05:13 PM
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Only 1800 lumens!!!!!!!
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post #4 of 39 Old 09-14-2016, 05:40 PM
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1800 lumen is not enough light for HDR.

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post #5 of 39 Old 09-14-2016, 05:47 PM
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post #6 of 39 Old 09-14-2016, 06:05 PM
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HLG is supposed to have a variable system gamma dependent on the peak display luminance. It's defined as 1.2 gamma at 1000 nits and increases with luminance greater than 1000 nits. What happens with a projector that is well under 1000 nits? Do they keep it fixed at 1.2? You should ask Sony and see if they can answer.
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post #7 of 39 Old 09-14-2016, 08:47 PM
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post #8 of 39 Old 09-14-2016, 09:46 PM
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Still no FI @4k... it's the same with the PS4 Pro and the missing UHD Blu Ray drive
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post #9 of 39 Old 09-14-2016, 11:58 PM
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Quote:
The VPL-VW675ES will be available in November for a list price of $15,000, the same price as the VW665ES it replaces. Not bad for true 4K, HDR10, and HLG!
Seems projectors are fighting "cost barriers" that flat panels are not, which are keeping their prices relatively much more that flat panels.

I wonder if the projector market is shrinking as flat screen sizes further encroach onto their territory, or if it's just the sheer volume of flat screens being sold allow the manuf and R&D cost to be shared by so many-many more units, thereby we will never see projectors in the relative/acceptable % more ballpark of flatscreens.

By that, I mean if you plot screen size on one axis and cost on the other, the trend will make itself apparent, and doing so for both 1080p and 4k devices will show the PJ vs Flat "penalty"gap.
(need to add typical cost of screen @ size into that chart I realize it for apples-apples comparison)

Scott or Mark - have you seen a simple visual chart, since you guys live this industry and I'm just a hobbyist.

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post #10 of 39 Old 09-15-2016, 12:22 AM
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Sony announced some other stuff today...

-UBP-X1000ES Ultra HD Blu-Ray Player ($TBD, Spring)
-New ES AVRs: STR-ZA3100ES, 2100ES, 1100ES, 810ES

http://www.digitaltrends.com/home-th...ies-receivers/

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post #11 of 39 Old 09-15-2016, 12:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rolfu View Post
Still no FI @4k...

I had been told / was under the impression that Sony's latest line of 4K front projectors would feature motion interpolation / "Motion Flow".


With all the acronyms that come with UHD BD / 4K it becomes difficult to keep track.


Here is the explanation for HLG, just in case you didn't know, yet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Log-Gamma


The 675ES is the US counterpart of the European 550ES, correct?

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post #12 of 39 Old 09-15-2016, 03:03 AM
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Originally Posted by fatuglyguy View Post
Sony announced some other stuff today...

-UBP-X1000ES Ultra HD Blu-Ray Player ($TBD, Spring)
No mention about Dolby Vision support in the UHD player.

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post #13 of 39 Old 09-15-2016, 03:25 AM
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The 675ES is the US counterpart of the European 550ES, correct?
That's right. But with a comletely different price tag. Don't look at it, you probably get angry...
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post #14 of 39 Old 09-15-2016, 03:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rolfu View Post
That's right. But with a comletely different price tag. Don't look at it, you probably get angry...

Since I live in Europe, probably not, but I wouldn't invest in any 4K projector that doesn't provide FI / motion interpolation for 4K program content.


Two years ago (IFA 2014) Sony showcased the same demo film on its 4K projector, then, and on its 4K flat screens - which all ran with Sony's MotionFlow activated.


One Sony dealer I talked to about the issue, told me he talked with the Sony projector engineers about it and the reply he got was "Dipherent Dievision".


Recently saw different UHD BD content on the Sony 1000 and was absolutely stunned by all the 4K details (The Martian), but the lack of FI was especially apparent in the beginning of Star Trek Into Darkness. With all the motion blur in the action packed scenes, it became harder to tell whether I saw an UHD BD, a Blu-ray or a 720p source.


Looks like a lot of potential for manufacturers of video processors or players (Oppo?) to implement 4K motion interpolation processing chips in their units to solve this problem.
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post #15 of 39 Old 09-15-2016, 05:51 AM
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If I wanted to buy a projector for less than $10,000, is the JVC RS-600 the best choice? Anyone think that there might be a better choice announced at CEDIA?
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post #16 of 39 Old 09-15-2016, 09:17 AM
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Besides the better black levels, what more does the RS 600 have to offer that surpasses the the VPL 675?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reddig View Post
1800 lumen is not enough light for HDR.
Depends on screen size, and final nits / fl of your screen. As soon as your image is greater than 29fl or 100 nits, then SDR signals start limiting your contrast.

Aside from that though, HDR10 is a far better encoding format (no banding is big. I can see banding in every SDR bluray I own), and displays all do their own internal tone mapping, so HDR sources are going to look better no matter what. Plus if you want wider colour gamut you need HDR10 too. Plus UHD Blurays are natively in 10-bit, do SDR outputs on UHD Bluray players even preserve bit depth? (with the caveat that 10-bit in Gamma encoding is not the same as 10-bit in PQ, and is way inferior).

What I don't understand is why so many projectors aren't using LEDs. Is it because of someone has patented it, i.e. patent trolling shenanigans?

You can buy a 4000 lumen LED-illuminated projector on Alibaba for 200 bucks. I just don't get why so many projectors are hurting their sales and massively limiting their lumens by not doing that. Does anyone know? I figure even with a yellow notch filter to expand the primaries from a rec709 D65 LED source, it would still be way brighter / cheaper / cooler / last longer than a traditional bulb.

I wonder if there are any LED projectors at Cedia this year. Lasers are great for colour but not so good for lumens / dollar and that matters a lot for HDR.

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post #18 of 39 Old 09-15-2016, 09:45 AM
 
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Originally Posted by rolfu View Post
Still no FI @4k... it's the same with the PS4 Pro and the missing UHD Blu Ray drive
I agree, I can't buy a 4K projector without FI, it would be a huge step down. At least if I could rip UHD Blurays and do the interpolation on my PC, I would justify the upgrade / hassle, but as of now it's literally impossible to get 24->60fps content from UHD Blurays or even any streaming service.

This is a perfect time for an enterprising company like Darbee to step up and offer a UHD processor that offers FI plus SDR-to-HDR conversion for legacy SDR content. Technicolor has already made chips that do that. As soon as such a processor is available / affordable enough, that would make these projectors' limitations bearable. But since most content is still in SDR I think it's premature to upgrade. Especially for people like me for whom dropping from 1080p at 60hz to UHD at 24p (despite HDR) would not be worthwhile, at the cost of several thousands of dollars my overall viewing experience would be diminished.
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post #19 of 39 Old 09-15-2016, 02:35 PM
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"I did confirm with the Sony representatives that the new VPL-VW675 still has HDMI input ports that are limited to 10.2 Gbps maximum data rate, instead of the full bandwidth 18 Gbps version found on some 4K UHD flat panel TVs and certain other brands of 4K-lite (with pixel shifting) projectors. This limitation only impacts support for 4K/UHD video sources that output video at higher than 24Hz or 30Hz, such as some found with some streaming video devices and sources. With this limitation a 50Hz or 60Hz UHD source can only bee supported with a limited to 8-bit depth and 4:2:0 chroma format. This is not an issue for watching movies on Ultra HD discs as these are at 24Hz."

From Ron's Blog At Cedia http://www.projectorreviews.com/home...po-2016-day-1/
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post #20 of 39 Old 09-15-2016, 04:02 PM
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I have a bad feeling Im not going to see a good true UHD HDR projector at $3K for a good 5 years uhg.

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post #21 of 39 Old 09-15-2016, 07:34 PM
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Upgrade to vpl vw675es

i just received Sony vpl vw665es projector. Still in box. Should I return it and upgrade to vpl vw675es. What is sony's return policy? 30 days? Thanks in advance
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post #22 of 39 Old 09-15-2016, 09:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post
Depends on screen size, and final nits / fl of your screen. As soon as your image is greater than 29fl or 100 nits, then SDR signals start limiting your contrast.

Aside from that though, HDR10 is a far better encoding format (no banding is big. I can see banding in every SDR bluray I own), and displays all do their own internal tone mapping, so HDR sources are going to look better no matter what. Plus if you want wider colour gamut you need HDR10 too. Plus UHD Blurays are natively in 10-bit, do SDR outputs on UHD Bluray players even preserve bit depth? (with the caveat that 10-bit in Gamma encoding is not the same as 10-bit in PQ, and is way inferior).

What I don't understand is why so many projectors aren't using LEDs. Is it because of someone has patented it, i.e. patent trolling shenanigans?

You can buy a 4000 lumen LED-illuminated projector on Alibaba for 200 bucks. I just don't get why so many projectors are hurting their sales and massively limiting their lumens by not doing that. Does anyone know? I figure even with a yellow notch filter to expand the primaries from a rec709 D65 LED source, it would still be way brighter / cheaper / cooler / last longer than a traditional bulb.

I wonder if there are any LED projectors at Cedia this year. Lasers are great for colour but not so good for lumens / dollar and that matters a lot for HDR.
A smaller screen would indeed help.

I too have wondered why there aren't more LED projector designs out there. The laser designs have me excited like the 5000ES. Big bucks tho.

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post #23 of 39 Old 09-16-2016, 01:22 AM
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I agree, I can't buy a 4K projector without FI, it would be a huge step down. .
Same here, this is my biggest disappointment. I already have the 320 and is fine but would prefer some level of FI.
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Does anybody have an idea of what the Vpl 675 MRSP price will be?
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post #25 of 39 Old 09-16-2016, 07:50 AM
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Same here, this is my biggest disappointment. I already have the 320 and is fine but would prefer some level of FI.
I was going to tag ya. Let me know if you sell your Sony.
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post #26 of 39 Old 09-16-2016, 09:27 PM
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Does anybody have an idea of what the Vpl 675 MRSP price will be?
Hopefully a lot less that 15K if they want to sell a lot of them... I get the research behind this, but make a unit very good and make the price more affordable... Hell with 8K announced and barely any 4K projectors announced you would think prices would come more in under the 4-5K mark... Here is hoping!

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Hopefully a lot less that 15K if they want to sell a lot of them... I get the research behind this, but make a unit very good and make the price more affordable... Hell with 8K announced and barely any 4K projectors announced you would think prices would come more in under the 4-5K mark... Here is hoping!
In answer the the question above about flat panel pricing being so much lower, its because flat panels jumped the gun and came out with 2-3 generations before any final specs were solidified. Then there's the OLED having true infinite contrast which doesn't help front pjs. I've gotten the feeing for the last two years, and with 4K versions especially, that the front pj market has been anticipating its own demise (or at least extreme slowdown) and are slow-playing the market...releasing new technology every 3 years instead of every year, and pricing pjs that people think "this is the last pj I'll ever buy" at $15K+. I love and own front pjs but I see them becoming even more of a much market, especially for true reference level ones if OLED ever gets to the "retractable screen" phase.
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post #28 of 39 Old 09-17-2016, 12:22 PM
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In answer the the question above about flat panel pricing being so much lower, its because flat panels jumped the gun and came out with 2-3 generations before any final specs were solidified. Then there's the OLED having true infinite contrast which doesn't help front pjs. I've gotten the feeing for the last two years, and with 4K versions especially, that the front pj market has been anticipating its own demise (or at least extreme slowdown) and are slow-playing the market...releasing new technology every 3 years instead of every year, and pricing pjs that people think "this is the last pj I'll ever buy" at $15K+. I love and own front pjs but I see them becoming even more of a much market, especially for true reference level ones if OLED ever gets to the "retractable screen" phase.
I am still using a VPL-VW85 and have it dialed in nicely with a good screen, retail was 8k I was able to get one new for 5K... I have always used FP in my home theater in my basement and will continue to do so, just as long as they price them at a reasonable level... I have had great luck with Sony FP and JVCs..... so I tend to stick with them, but I have seen some Epsons I have liked as well.... Just hoping the 4K or 8K transition, isn't to costly...

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post #29 of 39 Old 09-17-2016, 12:41 PM
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I assume this is also 3D capable? I know the 665 was but these days (where everything is a big secret from consumers), you never know.
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post #30 of 39 Old 09-19-2016, 11:21 AM
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MotionFlow in the 675ES

I read this earlier "the VPL-VW675ES uses native 4K SXRD™ panels, with no artificial manipulation of pixels. Rich and accurate color reproduction is ensured by Sony’s proprietary TRILUMINOS™ engine design, while Motionflow™ picture technology serves to deliver clearer, less blurry images when watching fast-paced, cinematic or sports action." Anyone know if this is true?
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