NAD Classic Series C 338, C 368, and C 388 DAC Amplifiers at CEDIA 2016 - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 122 Old 12-20-2016, 01:29 PM
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Yeah, based on my experience with NAD7050, I'm inclined to avoid NAD.

The poorly implemented sub crossover makes the decision easier anyway.

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post #62 of 122 Old 12-22-2016, 07:42 PM
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So, NAD says they are working on a firmware update that would "fix" the crossover and add a frequency setting to the UI. I notice they changed the manual and currently it says the options are full range or a 300 Hz high pass (still unusable) vs. previously saying frequencies between 40-300 Hz would be sent to the sub (even more absurd as what happens to the signal below 40?). Hopefully they follow through as the feature set is otherwise pretty amazing with the BluOS module and Hypex amps. Not realistic at the price point but too bad the C388 doesn't have the newer nCore vs UcD.
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post #63 of 122 Old 12-23-2016, 06:04 AM
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That would be great as bass management is the one issue I have with the new generation C series integrated amps. Hopefully it's a firmware update and not hardware based that would require sending it in or a whole new model number series.

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post #64 of 122 Old 01-02-2017, 06:38 PM
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I've been reading up on this amp. series as my preferred options of Arcam, Audiolab etc., do not have tone controls and I find that unacceptable. I joined here to engage in the discussion about these NAD amps and I have to admit, their ****-up (no other words for it) over the subwoofer terminal output was a matter of concern.

But now, I see they have done software/firmware updates dated November - December 2016 and updated manuals as of December 2016. The manual now says on page 6 "Low frequency information up to 150 Hz is sent to the connected subwoofer via PRE OUT/SUBW."

But under Filters it says:

"Filters provide easy bi-amplification or subwoofer integration by adding the required filters to redirect bass frequencies to the subwoofer. High Pass: Low pass signal up to 300 Hz is attenuated and over 300 Hz sent to the speakers. Full Range: Refers to the whole frequency spectrum capability of your C 388 and speaker system. This is ideally 20 Hz to 20 kHz"

So I am not 100% sure that this is the required subwoofer output fix - though it may be. I also wonder if they have addressed any of the other minor criticisms mentioned in this thread. But at least, it does appear that NAD has responded to the subwoofer output issue so I'm back to considering the C368 again as a New Year treat for myself.
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post #65 of 122 Old 01-03-2017, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hpp8140 View Post
Yeah, based on my experience with NAD7050, I'm inclined to avoid NAD.

The poorly implemented sub crossover makes the decision easier anyway.
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...finally found something I like..bought a used Marantz M-CR510 under $200 and works well with my new KEF Q100.

A little larger than I wanted, but still smaller than a receiver to fit on top of a 13" cube sub.

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post #66 of 122 Old 01-16-2017, 03:01 PM
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Considering both the NAD 326BEE and the NAD C368 or C338. Regarding performance and sound would thier be big difference between these BEE series and the new hybrid digital series.
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post #67 of 122 Old 01-16-2017, 03:03 PM
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Will be driving Focal 905 speakers in a 10 x 12 living space.
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post #68 of 122 Old 01-16-2017, 03:22 PM
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It's a subtle difference, though your speakers are good enough to clearly show it. I find the newer Digital Hybrid series to have a lower noise floor, and run cooler. Not quite as warm as the previous either, but that's subjective as I don't consider warmth on the older series to be profound by any means. I think the better reason to get the Digital Hybrid is that you can get the BlueOS option for streaming.

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post #69 of 122 Old 01-16-2017, 03:45 PM
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Have read some good reviews regarding the 326BEE at its price point, will be using a Technics 1700mk2 restored TT in the system. So would have to purchase a phono preamp separate for the 326Bee while the C338/C368 have a built in phono preamp. Will be using a sub as well. 326Bee with purchase of phono preamp could put me at same or over price of the C338. Dont know if there is huge difference in sound between the C338 and C368 to justify the additional $$.
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post #70 of 122 Old 01-16-2017, 04:46 PM
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Have read some good reviews regarding the 326BEE at its price point, will be using a Technics 1700mk2 restored TT in the system. So would have to purchase a phono preamp separate for the 326Bee while the C338/C368 have a built in phono preamp. Will be using a sub as well. 326Bee with purchase of phono preamp could put me at same or over price of the C338. Dont know if there is huge difference in sound between the C338 and C368 to justify the additional $$.
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post #71 of 122 Old 01-16-2017, 05:11 PM
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Let's back up a bit. Other than a turntable for which you need a phono amp, what other analog inputs do you have? Do you have and digital device inputs which need a DAC, or anticipate any?

How loud do you listen, and is there any possibility of upgrade to larger speakers in the future? The C338 might be working a little harder than a C368, but it's the "upgradability" of the C368 which is equally attractive to me.

I'm likely putting together a 2.1 channel music only system for my office this year. A C368 is on my radar as the minimum unit because it can have the BlueOS added and that enables streaming MQA files. I do that now with a Bluesound Vault and it's glorious. NAD has added a lot of features and made (IMO) a better amp with the trickle-down technology of the Masters series, either would likely serve you well. I'm the type that believes in buying the best tool first, and once. Regrets usually cost more money.

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post #72 of 122 Old 01-16-2017, 06:26 PM
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Would be adding a CD player in the future as well. Most listening will not be done at high volumes, i anticipate their will be times that I might but not the majority of the time. Might later, nothing in the immediate future, upgrade to a larger stand mounted speaker. Are their better options regarding a phono pre amp other than the NAD phono pre amp in the NAD 338/368? Newbie question but if I am running just the TT and a CD player do I really need a DAC, if the CD player has a built in DAC.
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post #73 of 122 Old 01-16-2017, 06:48 PM
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That depends upon just how good the DAC in the CD player is. If it's a newer high-end CD player, perhaps it's DAC is better and you could use the analog outputs. I have a 15 year old Sony CD 5-disk changer so I link with digital optical TosLink to my NAD T758, as the receiver's DAC is newer and better. Since I got a Bluesound Vault and ripped all my CD's to it, the Sony CD changer collects dust.

As for phono amp in the C338 or C368, it's pretty good. How much better is a good Conrad Johnson, Bellari, or host of others, I don't know. Your TT and cartridge may be more of the limiting factor. Consider the BlueOS module in the future because your integrated amp can become a super tuner playing radio stations from nearby...or anywhere in the world. Even if you never subscribe to a streaming service such as Tidal Hi-Fi (very highly recommended as it now has MQA encoded titles and BlueOS decodes them), you'd still be able to play every CD you own if you simply rip them to a network attached storage drive.

For far less than the cost of a good CD player, BlueOS gets you incredible possibilities. You only can add that to the C368 or C388 though. A C338 would need to use a Bluesound Node. The original ones are on closeout right now for about $300. A Node 2 runs $449, so you see why adding the module to your integrated amp makes sense.

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post #74 of 122 Old 01-16-2017, 07:01 PM
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If i plan on adding a sub, should I be concerned with some post about bass management with the C 368 ? Any input regarding how the Marantz PM 6006/7005 amps compare to the NAD . Just curious if the NAD or possibly the Marantz which would be best match for the Focal 905. Unfortunately best case scenario would go listen to these amps but no dealers in my area carry the NAD line. Thanks again for the help
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post #75 of 122 Old 01-18-2017, 10:53 AM
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Add me to the list of folks wondering about bass management on the C 368. If I'm going to get a Hsu ULS-15 MK2 that can supposedly go down to 18 Hz, why would I want my amp to filter out anything below 40 Hz? And a 300 Hz crossover for a sub that can only go up to 200 Hz is going to leave a massive, gaping mid-bass hole in my sound. WTF, NAD?

Hoping, like others, they fix this and offer a variable crossover between 40-200 Hz. Even just a few options, like 40, 60, 80, 100, 120, 140, 160, 180, 200 Hz would be great. (Hoping for 80-100 Hz since I plan on using Hsu HB-1 MK2 bookshelves with my ULS-15 MK2.)

If anyone finds out more about this, please update the thread. I've got an email in to them as well and will post any updates. And here I thought this was "the one." We'll see!
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post #76 of 122 Old 01-18-2017, 08:19 PM
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See my post #64. I think they've fixed it i.e. "The manual now says on page 6 "Low frequency information up to 150 Hz is sent to the connected subwoofer via PRE OUT/SUBW.""

No mention of the 40Hz problem under either subwoofer or filters any more.
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post #77 of 122 Old 01-18-2017, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D'@ve View Post
See my post #64. I think they've fixed it i.e. "The manual now says on page 6 "Low frequency information up to 150 Hz is sent to the connected subwoofer via PRE OUT/SUBW.""

No mention of the 40Hz problem under either subwoofer or filters any more.

Right, but on page 13 it still says:

"Filters provide easy bi-amplification or subwoofer integration by adding the required filters to redirect bass frequencies to the subwoofer.
High Pass: Low pass signal up to 300 Hz is attenuated and over 300 Hz sent to the speakers.
Full Range: Refers to the whole frequency spectrum capability of your C 368 and speaker system. This is ideally 20 Hz to 20 kHz."

Still sounds fishy to me.



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post #78 of 122 Old 01-19-2017, 06:31 AM
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What that says to me is that with the firmware fix (or manual correction!), when using a subwoofer you set it to subw in the menu, connect the subw via the Preout/subw terminal, and it then filters out *only* frequencies above 150Hz.

You then can set under Filters the main speaker output to be full range or to filter out frequencies below 300 Hz (the logical option with a subw).

If it turns out to be filtering from the subw output anything below 40Hz as mentioned up the thread, that would be a misrepresentation and you'd be able to get a full refund, at least under UK law and, I'd guess, most Countries. Easy enough to check!

What's missing is of course the ability to change those subw and filter cutoff points but I'd imagine that you can do that in the subw.
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post #79 of 122 Old 01-19-2017, 06:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D'@ve View Post
What that says to me is that with the firmware fix (or manual correction!), when using a subwoofer you set it to subw in the menu, connect the subw via the Preout/subw terminal, and it then filters out *only* frequencies above 150Hz.

You then can set under Filters the main speaker output to be full range or to filter out frequencies below 300 Hz (the logical option with a subw).

If that's the case, then there's a big gap between 150-300 Hz. Eek. No thanks!

Hopefully this is all a big misunderstanding and/or they'll fix it so it's actually useful to those with a good sub.



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post #80 of 122 Old 01-19-2017, 07:13 AM
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I just logged into their support site and asked if they could clarify and actually write a coherent manual. We'll see.
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post #81 of 122 Old 01-19-2017, 12:35 PM
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If that's the case, then there's a big gap between 150-300 Hz. Eek. No thanks!

Hopefully this is all a big misunderstanding and/or they'll fix it so it's actually useful to those with a good sub.
The comment above about the manual is spot-on - it's poorly written and leaves things open to misunderstanding and misinterpretation.

But assuming 150 Kz for the subwoofer filter and 300 Hz for the main speakers filter are the start of the roll-offs in each case, it should be possible to design the two filter roll-offs to work together between 150 and 300Hz to produce an overall fairly flat response between the two.

In which case, NAD need to say so, in their rather confusing manual. It isn't the kind of manual that breeds confidence, is it!
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post #82 of 122 Old 01-19-2017, 01:42 PM
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I finally heard back, and got a pretty good, albeit partial, answer. Looks like the subwoofer output crossover is fixed at 80 Hz. Great for me, as that was the crossover frequency I was planning to use, but maybe not great for others. What they didn't answer is whether you can control the frequency cutoff for the mains. If it's either full-range or a high pass at 300 Hz, that stinks. Here's their email, from Jackie/Erich (?):

Jackie (NAD Electronics)
Jan 19, 17:35 AST
Hello Chris,

Thank you for contacting the NAD Electronics Support Center regarding your C 368.

The subwoofer output is set to a fixed 80hz. If you need a different setting, I'd suggest running the output as a pre-out to the sub and use its internal crossover network if it has one.

We hope this information is helpful.

Kind regards,
Erich
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post #83 of 122 Old 01-23-2017, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cgramer View Post
I finally heard back, and got a pretty good, albeit partial, answer. Looks like the subwoofer output crossover is fixed at 80 Hz. Great for me, as that was the crossover frequency I was planning to use, but maybe not great for others. What they didn't answer is whether you can control the frequency cutoff for the mains. If it's either full-range or a high pass at 300 Hz, that stinks. Here's their email, from Jackie/Erich (?):

Jackie (NAD Electronics)
Jan 19, 17:35 AST
Hello Chris,

Thank you for contacting the NAD Electronics Support Center regarding your C 368.

The subwoofer output is set to a fixed 80hz. If you need a different setting, I'd suggest running the output as a pre-out to the sub and use its internal crossover network if it has one.

We hope this information is helpful.

Kind regards,
Erich
OK, I'm getting mixed reports from NAD and reps at Crutchfield.

Following up on Jackie/Erich's email (from NAD), I sent this question back:
OK, it's great that the subwoofer output is set at 80Hz. Do the main speakers then get everything from 80Hz on up, or must they get full-range (i.e., 20-20kHz)? If they get 80Hz up when a sub is connected, then this is the product I've been searching for. If not, then the search continues...
I got this answer about what gets sent to the main speakers when a sub is crossed over at 80 Hz:

------
Jackie (NAD Electronics)
Jan 23, 15:54 AST

Hi Chris,

You can do it either way. You can have the main speakers go full range, or activate a high pass filter to keep 80hz and below out of the main channels.

- Erich
------

A rep at Crutchfield checked a C 368 they had in their office and said that the sub output is fixed, but not at 80 Hz, rather at 200 Hz, and he found no way to change that frequency to 80 Hz or anything else.

So, we're back at square 1, I guess. Does anyone who actually works at NAD read this forum who could perhaps shed some light on this? Greg Stidsen (see first post), perhaps?

And here I thought I'd found my next amp. Well, if Jackie/Erich is correct, I have. But it doesn't appear s/he is correct. Gah!

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post #84 of 122 Old 01-23-2017, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cgramer View Post
OK, I'm getting mixed reports from NAD and reps at Crutchfield.

Following up on Jackie/Erich's email (from NAD), I sent this question back:
OK, it's great that the subwoofer output is set at 80Hz. Do the main speakers then get everything from 80Hz on up, or must they get full-range (i.e., 20-20kHz)? If they get 80Hz up when a sub is connected, then this is the product I've been searching for. If not, then the search continues...
I got this answer about what gets sent to the main speakers when a sub is crossed over at 80 Hz:

------
Jackie (NAD Electronics)
Jan 23, 15:54 AST

Hi Chris,

You can do it either way. You can have the main speakers go full range, or activate a high pass filter to keep 80hz and below out of the main channels.

- Erich
------

A rep at Crutchfield checked a C 368 they had in their office and said that the sub output is fixed, but not at 80 Hz, rather at 200 Hz, and he found no way to change that frequency to 80 Hz or anything else.

So, we're back at square 1, I guess. Does anyone who actually works at NAD read this forum who could perhaps shed some light on this? Greg Stidsen (see first post), perhaps?

And here I thought I'd found my next amp. Well, if Jackie/Erich is correct, I have. But it doesn't appear s/he is correct. Gah!

OK, maybe some good news. Post #10 on this thread made my day, *if it's correct* (because it still conflicts with what NAD told me!):

http://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/f...ssics-bargains

User kerouack wrote:

Quote:
I wrote to NAD, they told me:

Please be advised that you are able to set the High end setting of the crossover point for the Subwoofer Output between 40Hz and 200Hz.
If you set the crossover point to be for example 80Hz. This means that the Subwoofer Output would have the 20Hz-80Hz bandwidth and the {main} Speakers Outputs would have 80Hz-20kHz.
I hope that's true! Before finding this, I had written back to NAD again. Hope springs eternal...

Chris
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post #85 of 122 Old 01-23-2017, 02:14 PM
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Thumbs down

OK, the saga continues. I read further into that thread, and user kerouack got another email from NAD. It seems the very same Jackie who emailed me was misinformed. Here's the newest info (full post quoted below):

Quote:
01-12-2016, 10:08 AM
BAd luck with the new update from NAD.

Hello,

Thank you for your follow up note last week. i appologise tfor the confusion it caused.

I have retested a C368 regarding your report. The "Filters" and "Pre Out/Subwoofer" settings function as described in my last reply.

"Filters" setting:
- When the "High Pass" filter is selected, frequencies above 200 Hz are sent to your Speakers.
- When "Full" is selected, 20 Hz ~ 20kHz are sent to your Speakers.

"Pre Out/Subwoofer" setting:
- When "Pre Out" is selected, 20 Hz ~ 20kHz are sent to the PREOUT/SUBW RCA connections.
- When "Subwoofer" is selected, 40 Hz ~ 200Hz are sent to the PREOUT/SUBW RCA connections.

Therefor to send signals below 40 Hz to our Subwoofer, please set the "Pre Out/Subwoofer" setting to PreOut. Then you can set the crossover point you desire on the Sub's Crossover.

With regards to the first answer you received, the person that advised Jackie was not fully aware of the C368 Filter and Pre Out/Subwoofer specifications.

Please feel free to call me with any additional questions.

*****************************************MY NEW ANSWER:

Thank you very much for your explanation, i understand it, but i can not understand why NAD did that decissions.
1) I saw different subwoofers in a shop and all of then can go down in frecuencies more than 40Hz, so why the decision that the subwoofer out is between 40Hz-200Hz and not starting at 20Hz instead of 20Hz ?
2) Same subwoofers can be change their crossover from 50Hz - 150Hz, that means i could choose 100HZ, or 70Hz, or 150HZ, but it is imposible to choose 200Hz.
So if i want to NOT send ALL frecuenies to main spakers, which makes no sense using a subwoofer i choose Filter-high pass and i send 200HZ and up to main speakers, but then problem is:
A) I if select Pre out and send all frecuencies to subwoofer then i need to use crossover in the subwoofer, and the maximum can be 150Hz, that means frecuencies 150Hz to 200HZ will be sent to NO speaker! right ?
B) Other option i select subwoofer but then isend to subwoofer from 40Hz to 200Hz, so i will not send below 40HZ, not from 20Hz.
Thats why, the option you say, to use the pre out and use crossover in the Sub, is not a good solution, if one person selects filter-High pass is not good to use Preout (like explained in A) ) so needs to use Subwoofer option, and frecuencies from 20Hz to 40HZ will not be sent to the sub.
And if someone really wants a lot to send frecuencies 20HZ to 40HZ to the subwoofer, needs to use filters-FULL (if use filters-high frecuencies from 150HZ to 200HZ will not be sent to any speaker! like explained) and that means sending to the main speakers frecuencies that will be also sent to the subwoofer, what makes no sense, right ?
So i know now how it works, but i would like to know why the designers did that decissions, cause it does not make a lot of sense to me.
I must add: If i saw 5 subwoofers in a shop, and in all of them the crossver can be choosen from 50Hz to 150Hz, that means they are not designed to reproduce frecuencies from 150HZ to 200Hz so using NO crossover in the subwoofer and the option " Subwoofer" in the amp and sending that frecuencies from 40HZ to 200Hz (that includes from 150HZ to 200Hz) to the sub it seems makes no sense.
I must add: If i saw 5 subwoofers in a shop, and in all of them the crossver can be choosen from 50Hz to 150Hz, that means they are not designed to reproduce frecuencies from 150HZ to 200Hz so using NO crossover in the subwoofer and the option " Subwoofer" in the amp and sending that frecuencies from 40HZ to 200Hz (that includes from 150HZ to 200Hz) to the sub it seems makes no sense.

***************************THEIR NEW ANSWER:

Hello Kerouack,
Thank you for your excellent feedback! All are valid points.

I have forwarded this support thread to NAD Director of Product Development. I have encouraged him to review the Filter and Subwoofer settings, and look into the possiblity of adding selectable high/low pass crossover settings.

I am hopeful the changes you highlighted can be implemented in a future firmware update.

Thank you again for the great feedback!

Kind regards,

Bob
So the NAD is not for me. At least not as it stands.
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post #86 of 122 Old 01-23-2017, 02:47 PM
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Considering the Outlaw RR2150, even though in a receiver class, has bass management options and what i have read a very good amp.
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post #87 of 122 Old 01-23-2017, 06:46 PM
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Considering the Outlaw RR2150, even though in a receiver class, has bass management options and what i have read a very good amp.

If it had optical digital ins, it'd be the one for me. I do plan to play tracks from a NAS or my PC, so USB is good to have, but I also want to use the optical digital outs on my TV and PS3.


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With my music, Metal and rock on normal listening niveau, NAD amps sounded the best for me. I like a warm, full bodied sound without bright highes. Even with bad records with NAD it is pleasant to listen.

I need a new a amp. But what is better; the old C356 (still to buy) or the new C368? A dealer meant the new C368 not so warm and dynamic and the older c356 are better. Is this true? The older C356 i can buy new for 560,-- Euro. The new C368 for 800,-- Euro. I don't need bluesound module because i have a Cambridge cxn streamer.
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post #89 of 122 Old 01-29-2017, 07:15 AM
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With my music, Metal and rock on normal listening niveau, NAD amps sounded the best for me. I like a warm, full bodied sound without bright highes. Even with bad records with NAD it is pleasant to listen.

I need a new a amp. But what is better; the old C356 (still to buy) or the new C368? A dealer meant the new C368 not so warm and dynamic and the older c356 are better. Is this true? The older C356 i can buy new for 560,-- Euro. The new C368 for 800,-- Euro. I don't need bluesound module because i have a Cambridge cxn streamer.
I find the new NAD Hybrid Digital to be a little more neutral than the previous series, but really clean quiet noise floor. Dead silent. You know when a C356 is on. If you prefer a warm, colored sound, go ahead with the C356BEE or (even better) C375BEE.

Yesterday I was taking to my dealer about the kerfuffle surrounding the C368/C388 series and it's bass management. He talks almost daily with people very high up in NAD (who I have also met a couple times) and they are aware and working hard on a firmware update. From what he's told the firmware update will not only clear up issues with sub management but also further refine sound quality to the point that these integrated amps may be better sounding than un-updated Master series units.

KEF R500, R200C, R100, SVS SB2000 sub, NAD T758 receiver, Pro-Ject RPM1 TT w/ Ortofon 2M Red, Bluesound Vault2, Sony BDP-S480 BlueRay player, Samsung UN55JU6500F 4K LED TV, KEF M500 headphones, Sony CDP-CE500 CD changer.
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post #90 of 122 Old 01-29-2017, 07:50 AM
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Yesterday I was taking to my dealer about the kerfuffle surrounding the C368/C388 series and it's bass management. He talks almost daily with people very high up in NAD (who I have also met a couple times) and they are aware and working hard on a firmware update. From what he's told the firmware update will not only clear up issues with sub management but also further refine sound quality to the point that these integrated amps may be better sounding than un-updated Master series units.

I hope they do it soon because I'm getting ready to buy the Emotiva PT-100/A-300 combo instead. They don't have bass management either, but at least I'll be able to put a high-pass filter from Hsu between them to get the crossover I want. I'll keep an eye on this thread...

Chris




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