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post #271 of 294 Old 01-12-2013, 12:10 PM
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Don't forget, the amp that we have is different then the older Butt Kicker that Craig had. I would start at about 2 or 2.5 for the level and slowly work your way up. I am not brave enough to go above 3 though. You want it to augment, not distract. I am looking forward to your thought.

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post #272 of 294 Old 02-14-2013, 07:02 PM - Thread Starter
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For those that may be following along or that may be interested, here's my little write up/impressions of the The Crowson Motion Actuators. My little review and other info can be found in The "Official" Crowson Tactile Motion Actuators Thread here on AVS.
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Originally Posted by Bunga99 View Post

After spending a few weeks with the Crowson Tactile Motion Actuators, I thought I would share my impressions of them. Long story short, I love these things!! I had very high hopes for them but also was very concerned about a gimmicky or unnatural/fake feel and I am more than satisfied with the results. I would highly recommend the Crowson Actuators! That pretty much sums it up….but if you want to read more…here we go smile.gif

Here’s a little background on my set up. My room is very small (1150cu ft) with carpet over concrete and it’s not sealed but opened to the rest of my house. A few years ago I owned a HSU VTF 3.2 sub that was positioned right next to my chair (nearfield). I later sold the HSU VTF 3.2 and replaced it with a Seaton SubMersive HP that sat in the same exactly nearfield location. The tactile experience with either one of these subs nearfield was great. Later, I moved the SubMersive to different locations and found that it sounded, blended and measured better when it was in front of the room but it also lost a lot of tactile feel around 25hz and below area.. The SubMersive had two modes (PGM1 and PGM2). PGM2 adds a little more lift towards the bottom end. I’ve experimented with different options and running the sub hotter and here’s what I found. In my room, running more than 4-5dbs hot in PGM1 will add a little more tactile feel but I cant go any hotter the sub would be easily localizable. If I run PGM2, I can’t run more than 2-3db hot in my little square-ish room or it sounds a tad too boomy or does not decay as fast and it’s also localizable. This is not a problem with the sub but I think it’s more of the characteristic of my room and room dimensions. I also have a 25hz lift option on my Anti-Mode device that boosts 20hz by 7db. This does add a little more feel in certain movies but can get somewhat boomy too in other movies. I noticed the response of the Lift mode looks more like a ported sub as the response falls off sharply below 13hz. Also with the lift mode engaged, Anti-Mode also turns on a subsonic filter at 10Hz. Bottom line is that while turning up the sub louder and or engaging PGM 2 or Anti-mode’s 25hz lift mode can add a little more feel but nothing really gave that tactile feeling of how the sub felt like when it was nearfield. Enter the Crowson.

My Crowson setup is also somewhat unconventional too but it works very well. I originally wanted to run mine exactly how other members (Craig John, MikeDuke and Brolicbeast) run theirs – via the Oppo bluray player sub out for an un-EQ’ed signal and to have fine tune ability over delay settings.….but then I realized I might be able to get away with running mine a little differently which might provide me with a some different options if I got lucky. I got lucky! smile.gif I have the Anti-Mode 8033 that I use to EQ my SubMersive HP. I then run Audyssey XT in my Onkyo 805 receiver after Anti-Mode is finished running. I noticed that Anti-Mode pulls down a slight peak at 20hz and a very large peak at 50hz in my small room. Audyssey XT does eliminate some additional ringing but most of its correction is above 50hz and the corrections are not overly aggressive. With this in mind, I used a Y splitter from the Sub preout of my receiver. There’s one Rca wire running off the splitter is heading towards the Anti-mode device and then to the SubMersive. The other RCA wire off the splitter is running to the Buttkicker 1000N amp that is powering the Crowson. So the SubMersive is seeing the full correction of the Anti-Mode and Audyssey combo but the Crowson is seeing only the minor corrections what of Audyssey did. I also have the Crowson low passed at 40Hz via the Butttkicker amp. I thought while this setup may work, it still may not solve any possible delay issues I may have with the Crowson Actuators. Prior to running my set up like this, I talked to Randolph Crowson about this set up and he stated it should work fine and he noticed that delays are not usually an issue in small rooms. There were other questions I asked him as well and Randolph was always willing and eager to help. In my small room, I can’t tell if I have any delay issues with how I have everything set up. Its possible I may have just gotten lucky with my overall settings. Running it this way allows the Crowson to be controlled with the Master Volume of the Onkyo 805 receiver and it allows me to use the Crowson with my Bluray and my HD-DVD player. I still have around 100 HD-Dvds so this was a plus. While this setup works very well for me as my Audyssey to the Crowson has minimal EQ below 50Hz, I would recommend everyone else may want to use the method Craig outlines in the first post of this thread or find a way to have very little to no EQ on the Crowsons. I think I just got very lucky with my setup and with the 2 EQ devices I am using. The hardest part about the Crowson install was running the speaker wires to the chairs – still very easy in my room. Installing the Motion Isolators on my chairs and placing the chair on the Crowson Actuator was very easy.

I’ve been blown away on how realistic the Crowson feel. These Actuators has never made any weird noises and they feel very similar to how my subs felt like when they were near field but even better. There are also things/effects I am now feeling that I never felt with sub in either location (nearfield or far field). Some of these effects feel very realistic and does not feel like vibrating at certain frequencies or shaking at other frequencies but the only way I can describe some is turbulence. For me, some effects around 25hz area always felt similar to turbulence or a shudder type feel when my subs were nearfield. It’s kind of hard to put into words but imagine you are in a car stopped at a stop light and another vehicle traveling over 50MPH in the oncoming lane. As soon as that vehicle passes you, the turbulence that hits your car makes your whole vehicle shudder. That’s the experience I had with the with the subs nearfield and that’s what I now have again with the Crowsons – that and much more. What I am trying to say here it feels very realistic and not just "shaking”. It’s also easier to detect even lower hz now and as other have noticed that owned the Crowson device, a 30hz effect feels different than a 10hz. I have watched over 2 dozen movies with these devices already and listened to some music and demoed scenes from various movies and I find that it improves everything. Some stuff is subtle and really enhances the mood being portrayed in a movie while other effects just rocked my world. eek.gif I’ve noticed we would previously watch some movies louder or close to reference before the Crowson to get a good feel for the bass in the movie, now we can watch the same movie at a lower volume and be even more submerged while having a more enjoyable movie experience. In my setup, it can feel somewhat unnatural if you turn up the Crowson too much or use too high of a crossover on them but similar can be said about turning up your sub too high without any EQ. It does take some minor tweaking to get great results. Now that I have experienced the Crowson, I can say that these will always have a place in my room or any other room I may have in the future. I don’t know if my little write up is conveying how greatly I think of this product so let me put it another way. If had the option to keep my beloved SubMersive HP and then choose between getting a 2nd SubMersive HP or choose a set of Crowson Actuators; in my room, I would choose the Crowsons over a 2nd SubMersive- regardless of price. eek.gifcool.gif

I feel these Crowson Actuators would greatly benefit anyone in the following scenaro:
  • You don’t have multiple subs or space for multiple subs.
  • You don’t have the option of turning up your subs because it will disturb others.
  • You just want more tactile feel.
  • If you don’t have the tactile feeling because your floor is concrete and or you are not in a sealed room (open floor plan).


Finally, I wanted to say it’s been a complete pleasure dealing with Randolph Crowson. He was very upfront about possible delays before I ordered and was still able to ship the product to me even earlier than anticipated. He never charged my account until the product was ready to ship. Randolph was very eager to help even with some very stupid questions I asked. He never made me feel like he had to rush to get off the phone and he always answered my emails quickly and with great details and suggestions. I inquired about possible discounts and he even informed me of a 10% Powerbuy. That discount coupled with the 30day risk free trail made this purchase a no brainer. The 30day risk free trail offer may seem like you have nothing to lose but Crowson’s the one with nothing to lose because once you try this and get it dialed in, I can’t see why someone would want to return it – it's That Spectacular in my opinion! biggrin.gif
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post #273 of 294 Old 02-15-2013, 04:27 AM
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As always, nice write up Claude. You ought to think about becoming a reviewer. smile.gif

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post #274 of 294 Old 02-15-2013, 09:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Al! smile.gif I figured with all the help/advice I get on this forum, it’s the least I can do when I feel the product is worth taking the time to write about. Hopefully it may help someone else in the future.
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post #275 of 294 Old 08-05-2013, 11:11 PM - Thread Starter
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A few years back the wife and I set this goal to eliminate all of our debt. We accomplished that goal almost 2 years ago. The only thing left was our home mortgage which was already a very good rate. Long Story short, after a few months of trying, we were recently able to re-finance our home and eliminate a couple years off the life of the mortgage so we can pay off our home much sooner.

With all this responsible stuff out of the way, I figured it was time to get a lil crazy/fun. I started looking at the next upgrade to our little HT and decided to give Mark Seaton a call. I wanted to keep that same sound quality of the SubMersive but also wanted to smooth out the response even more from seat to seat and elevate the performance to the next level. Mark told me that I may be a good candidate for something he has been working on called the SubMersive HP+. One thing led to another and the next thing I know I have a second SubMersive sitting in my small room. You can find more info about the SubMersive HP+ here. Basically its 2 SubMersives being powered by single 4000watt plate amp.

I don’t know what can be said about duals subs in my room than has not already been said by others who has gone down this path but it does do exactly what others have said:
  • It smooths out the response from seat to seat (my wife’s seat was the worst bass seat prior to this upgrade, now she has the best bass seat in the house)
  • With decent placement it does help eliminate localization vs just one sub


One thing I did not expect was the bump in performance below 40hz when running duals. I don’t know how else to explain this but in my room, running dual SubMersives in PGM1 (19hz mode), sounds like PGM1 but feels and measures like PGM2 (15hz mode).

I only have two placement options for running duals:
  • Option 1: Place Subs under Left and Right speakers as you see in the pic (this is not ideal for most room) and if you have the space to experiment with placement, you should.
  • Option 2: Place one Sub under the Left Front speaker and one Sub at Right Midwall.


My room is only 1150 cubic feet but it’s not sealed. The left side of the room is open to the rest of the house. The right side of the room has a wall that is sheetrock over concrete. I chose option 1 because the closer I place a sub next to that side wall, the more room gain I get and I did not want things to sound lop sided or have any localization issues since these subs are essentially gain matched – plus I think it looks bad azz like this.

I am still tweaking:
Slightly moving our seats, slightly moving the subs, re-positioning some bass traps to help eliminate some issues with the room, trying different levels, different crossover settings, adjusting Sub distances settings in the AVR in PLX Movie mode and etc. Mark Seaton has previously advised about making changes to sub distance and how it can be beneficial. Craig John outlines how well it works here. In my room, it actually helped tame some extra energy I was getting in the 80-95hz area which caused some unwanted room resonance/growl. I still have some more tweaking to do as I have a small dip from 50hz to 65hz by about 4dbs but the wife and I both are Loving this upgrade and would Highly recommend it for anyone that is thinking about it.

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post #276 of 294 Old 08-06-2013, 02:21 AM
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I also think two subs is the way to go when space and budget allow. Good job paying off the debt, which is always job one in my view. Debt is the reason I haven't gone after some of my recent gear preferences; to buy them would mean debt. I would have been willing to replace my speakers with a pair of McIntosh XR200s, but that would mean emptying my bank account or taking on debt, which made it a no-go. Besides debt, there's the issue of savings.

How has moving things around affected the "sweet spot" in your room? Does it expand, shrink, or move?
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post #277 of 294 Old 08-06-2013, 04:18 AM
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Duals in an 1150f room. Congrats Claude, you just passed me as the crazy one tongue.gif. That's fantastic though and I am glad you are enjoying the benefits of having dual subs. The real crazy thing is once I put all my media on my server, I will have more space along my walls for me to do the same thing. But I really don't see that happening. Again, congrats and I hope you really enjoy that system now.

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post #278 of 294 Old 08-06-2013, 05:05 AM
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Congrats on the duals Claude. That's a lot of subwoofage (new word? tongue.gif) for that size room of yours.


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post #279 of 294 Old 08-06-2013, 06:16 AM
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Great stuff Claude! You should post it in the Submersive thread. It deserves a larger audience.

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Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

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post #280 of 294 Old 08-06-2013, 12:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prepress View Post

I also think two subs is the way to go when space and budget allow. Good job paying off the debt, which is always job one in my view. Debt is the reason I haven't gone after some of my recent gear preferences; to buy them would mean debt. I would have been willing to replace my speakers with a pair of McIntosh XR200s, but that would mean emptying my bank account or taking on debt, which made it a no-go. Besides debt, there's the issue of savings.

How has moving things around affected the "sweet spot" in your room? Does it expand, shrink, or move?
Thanks Prepass!
The sweet spot has improved feel/weight from the 40hz and below area but still sounds very similar to one SubMersive in PGM1. I also sense the bass more around me now too so its more immersive or more enveloping not that it wasn't before but its a lil more now.

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Duals in an 1150f room. Congrats Claude, you just passed me as the crazy one tongue.gif. That's fantastic though and I am glad you are enjoying the benefits of having dual subs. The real crazy thing is once I put all my media on my server, I will have more space along my walls for me to do the same thing. But I really don't see that happening. Again, congrats and I hope you really enjoy that system now.

Thanks Mike! I think there's another member, kbarnes701, that has dual F2s in his small room too. I guess some would actually look at this as being crazy but I'm still only running the bass about 4db hot and you are correct, if you don’t keep these things in check especially in a small room like this you can put a serious hurting on your ears. eek.gif
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Congrats on the duals Claude. That's a lot of subwoofage (new word? tongue.gif
) for that size room of yours.
Thanks Al! I think my next upgrade will either be a new receiver with Audyssey XT32 or possibly a slightly bigger display but I am enjoying the current set up so much that I have come to the conclusion that I won’t upgrade either until one of the current one breaks.
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Great stuff Claude! You should post it in the Submersive thread. It deserves a larger audience.

Craig
Thanks Craig and will do! smile.gif
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post #281 of 294 Old 08-06-2013, 12:56 PM
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I was playing Claude tongue.gif. If dual subs helped you even out the bass in the room then it was worth it. That is supposed to be one of the main goals of multiples with headroom also being an added bonus. Great job on improving your system.
EDIT: I just read more carefully the rest of your post. A bigger display? Man then I really would be Jealous. But a receiver with XT32 would really make that system sing.

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post #282 of 294 Old 08-06-2013, 02:51 PM - Thread Starter
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I knew you were playing, Mike. biggrin.gif Years ago I spent some time adding weatherstripping to some of my doors that would rattle when there was some powerful bass scenes especially around the 25hz area. I fixed all the rattles and could not get anything to rattle even with PGM2 or even using the Lift 25hz mode with Antimode. I find that the rattles help indentify when there is some low hz present but it’s also distracting so I was glad to get rid of them. When I first hooked up the SubMersive HP+ it sounded and measured exactly like the original HP. I then hooked the speakon cable to the HP+ Amp and that amp was now powering both SubMersive boxes, some of these rattles that I havent heard in years ago came back eek.gif After that I quickly backed down on the volume of the Sub dial there was other stuff going on as well. This was prior to me calibrating it but it gave a good idea how powerful these things can get and that was not close to running them at full tilt.

The display I get will have to work with my current TV stand as I still really like this stand. I think I can only go about 55in's or maybe 58inch. It does not appear like that from the pic but my current Pioneer TV has a sound bar at the bottom that eats up some space plus the bezel around the TV is kinda thick which are not the case with some of the newer models. I think the display upgrade will have to hold off for a while though or until this one breaks. That's the only thing the wife said I have to wait for it to break before I upgrade because she remembers me swapping 4 displays in one year redface.gif until I got this Kuro that I was happy with.
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post #283 of 294 Old 08-06-2013, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunga99 View Post

I knew you were playing, Mike. biggrin.gif Years ago I spent some time adding weatherstripping to some of my doors that would rattle when there was some powerful bass scenes especially around the 25hz area. I fixed all the rattles and could not get anything to rattle even with PGM2 or even using the Lift 25hz mode with Antimode. I find that the rattles help indentify when there is some low hz present but it’s also distracting so I was glad to get rid of them. When I first hooked up the SubMersive HP+ it sounded and measured exactly like the original HP. I then hooked the speakon cable to the HP+ Amp and that amp was now powering both SubMersive boxes, some of these rattles that I havent heard in years ago came back eek.gif After that I quickly backed down on the volume of the Sub dial there was other stuff going on as well. This was prior to me calibrating it but it gave a good idea how powerful these things can get and that was not close to running them at full tilt.

The display I get will have to work with my current TV stand as I still really like this stand. I think I can only go about 55in's or maybe 58inch. It does not appear like that from the pic but my current Pioneer TV has a sound bar at the bottom that eats up some space plus the bezel around the TV is kinda thick which are not the case with some of the newer models. I think the display upgrade will have to hold off for a while though or until this one breaks. That's the only thing the wife said I have to wait for it to break before I upgrade because she remembers me swapping 4 displays in one year redface.gif until I got this Kuro that I was happy with.

And, at least in black level, there's still nothing that beats the Kuro. Panasonic and Samsung have pretty much caught up in color; side-by side with a late 9G Kuro, their top models were very close, the differences subtle.

I'd recommend keeping your Pioneer until it's absolutely necessary to change it.
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post #284 of 294 Old 08-06-2013, 05:49 PM
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Nice, next step is getting seperates!!! I know it's a step you need a little pushing to help you make.smile.gif

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post #285 of 294 Old 08-07-2013, 01:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prepress View Post

And, at least in black level, there's still nothing that beats the Kuro. Panasonic and Samsung have pretty much caught up in color; side-by side with a late 9G Kuro, their top models were very close, the differences subtle.

I'd recommend keeping your Pioneer until it's absolutely necessary to change it.

From what I've read that's true but my Kuro is an 8G model so I may see a lil more of an improvement but I think you are correct. I'm gonna wait until its necessary to upgrade.

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Nice, next step is getting seperates!!! I know it's a step you need a little pushing to help you make.smile.gif

You know if anyone is gonna make me step into the world of seperates, its probably gonna be you Derek smile.gif I will have to wait a while though before I can afford something like that - if I go that route.
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post #286 of 294 Old 08-07-2013, 01:52 PM
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Hey, do what I did and get a separate amp. You can keep the receiver and use it as a preamp. I'm amazed every day at how much more detail I hear.
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post #287 of 294 Old 08-07-2013, 02:24 PM
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Hey, do what I did and get a separate amp. You can keep the receiver and use it as a preamp. I'm amazed every day at how much more detail I hear.


+1  I did this for quite some time in 2010 and the difference was remarkable.

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post #288 of 294 Old 08-07-2013, 03:25 PM
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I agree. I baby stepped into separates years ago(over 10). I had my trusty Denon 3300 and the first thing I did was to get a 3ch amp. Then I got a 2ch amp. Then, finally I got a dedicated preamp. Going from the receiver to the dedicate amps was a huge jump in performance me. I think it will be for you also Claude. You know I would not steer you wrong smile.gif.

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post #289 of 294 Old 08-07-2013, 03:40 PM - Thread Starter
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You guys are terrible! Just terrible...for my wallet! smile.gif

I'll definitely keep this on the back burner for possible upgrades in the future.
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post #290 of 294 Old 08-07-2013, 03:54 PM
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You guys are terrible! Just terrible...for my wallet! smile.gif

I'll definitely keep this on the back burner for possible upgrades in the future.
Yea, we are. But we make no apologies for it tongue.gif, It's the next logical step for you. We are just trying to nudge, shove, (OK push) you in the right direction biggrin.gif.

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post #291 of 294 Old 08-07-2013, 07:05 PM
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Hey man, you've got to hit us with some cool angle shots like this one in your first post, but with your new gear!!!!  Triads? Check! Submersive? Check!...Submersive AGAIN? Why, yes indeed--Check!

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Here's a shot of the entire room.

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post #292 of 294 Old 08-07-2013, 09:07 PM - Thread Starter
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smile.gif I'll see what I can do
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post #293 of 294 Old 08-08-2013, 02:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Bunga99 View Post

From what I've read that's true but my Kuro is an 8G model so I may see a lil more of an improvement but I think you are correct. I'm gonna wait until its necessary to upgrade.

I don't know how the 8G would compare with the current Panasonics or Samsungs, but I didn't see anything wrong with the 8G models. Only side-by-side with a 9G was it apparent there was a difference between those two, and mainly in black level with mostly or all-black screen content (the 9G had deeper blacks). You're still good.
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post #294 of 294 Old 08-08-2013, 04:45 AM
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Hey man, you've got to hit us with some cool angle shots like this one in your first post, but with your new gear!!!!  Triads? Check! Submersive? Check!...Submersive AGAIN? Why, yes indeed--Check!

Or Matt you could do what I did and visit Claude and sit in the middle chair. biggrin.gif


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