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post #541 of 717 Old 05-13-2013, 09:26 PM
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Thanks for that Charles, how much improvement did you see 4K over 1080p? Would you say night and day difference?

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post #542 of 717 Old 05-14-2013, 02:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Franin View Post

Thanks for that Charles, how much improvement did you see 4K over 1080p? Would you say night and day difference?

Depending upon the material, yes. At least, the difference was obvious. One side-by-side shot of a newspaper page showed it well. I was too far away to actually read the copy, but the 4K side was obviously cleaner and clearer.
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post #543 of 717 Old 05-14-2013, 08:47 AM - Thread Starter
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I forgot to mention Rob Sabin of Home Theater magazine was at the shoot-out, so I wouldn't be surprised to see some sort of write-up in an upcoming issue. Larry Weber, plasma's inventor, was there also.

And as an aside, there were some KILLER homemade cookies as part of the refreshments. One of the VE owner's daughters made them.
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post #544 of 717 Old 05-19-2013, 03:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Okay. Yesterday I took the C2300 in to the store to let them change out the stock tubes in there. I did something I hadn't planned, as instead of using the ones I'd already bought, at the salesman's suggestion I ended up with Amperex NOS (new old stock) tubes. Amperex is/was a North American Philips company. I also plan to get a spare set of screws for the 2300's top cover, since one of the screws is indeed stripped. And it was my concern over this which led me to take it to the store in the first place. The torque on the screws was tremendous, definitely over-tightened by McIntosh's factory, but now I'll be able to roll tubes myself. A friend drove me there and back; she also got some DVDs and lunch for her trouble.

Getting everything reconnected, I played a few songs and watched part of The Best of Both Worlds, the Star Trek: TNG 2-part cliffhanger which is out on Blu-ray. It looks and sounds great, by the way. The sound was immediately more open and perhaps more detailed than the stock tubes. The Amperex lower frequencies seemed a bit stronger out of the box than with the stock tubes, but they probably need a few more hours to settle in; I've heard maybe 20–30 in general. There was a clarity to the sound that gave things a more "in the room" quality as well. On A Horse with No Name, sound stretched outside the speaker boundaries (again). I'm hoping the low frequencies will fill in more and the sound smooth out after a while. Onward!

By the way, I bought Selah's Press On and Greatest Hits by Take 6. I haven't played them yet.
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post #545 of 717 Old 05-19-2013, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by prepress View Post


By the way, I bought Selah's Press On and Greatest Hits by Take 6. I haven't played them yet.

I will be anxious to hear your thoughts. I have some "non-religious" friends who love both of these CD's but for those of faith, they are extra special.
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post #546 of 717 Old 05-23-2013, 12:14 PM
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Charles I got to see the new Sony at a local Best Buy and I was underwhelmed. I'm sure I probably saw the same demo as you but BB had the demo in the worst area possible (harsh lighting) and the tv wasn't calibrated one bit. Saying that it was impressive and you can get close and still see plenty of detail but it being an LCD turned me off. I want to see a 4K plasma or OLED.
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post #547 of 717 Old 05-23-2013, 01:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Charles I got to see the new Sony at a local Best Buy and I was underwhelmed. I'm sure I probably saw the same demo as you but BB had the demo in the worst area possible (harsh lighting) and the tv wasn't calibrated one bit. Saying that it was impressive and you can get close and still see plenty of detail but it being an LCD turned me off. I want to see a 4K plasma or OLED.

The Sony 4K I saw was professionally calibrated and in proper lighting, a nice movie-dark room. And the color (on non-4K material, anyway) was exposed, being as it was next to a Panasonic VT plasma. The Sony had a bit of a yellowish tint to the color by comparison on Lawrence of Arabia. And it didn't do as well as the other sets on some of the technical tests the calibrators ran. In fact, I would take either of the Panasonic plasmas over that Sony any time. Or the Samsung plasma, if my room was somewhat bright.
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post #548 of 717 Old 05-26-2013, 04:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by prepress View Post

I forgot to mention Rob Sabin of Home Theater magazine was at the shoot-out, so I wouldn't be surprised to see some sort of write-up in an upcoming issue. Larry Weber, plasma's inventor, was there also.

And as an aside, there were some KILLER homemade cookies as part of the refreshments. One of the VE owner's daughters made them.

Here is the Home Theater write-up of the event.
http://www.hometheater.com/content/value-electronics-hdtv-shootout-and-then-there-were-three
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post #549 of 717 Old 05-31-2013, 01:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

I will be anxious to hear your thoughts. I have some "non-religious" friends who love both of these CD's but for those of faith, they are extra special.

I played Selah last night, and I like the voices. As for the songs, the traditional hymns were best to me. Traditional hymns have strong theological/doctrinal content, whereas "praise" songs like Oh Draw Me Lord don't do much for me generally. Russ Taff's guest turn on Were You there was a highlight, as was Amazing Grace.
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post #550 of 717 Old 05-31-2013, 01:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Call me impatient, I suppose, but not being pleased with the sound on the moving-magnet phono section, I re-installed my phono preamp and am using the 2300 as a line stage. What an improvement on the sound! The MM tubes probably needed their 20-30 hours of break-in apart form the line stage tubes, but I decided to make this move anyway. I will stay with this configuration, I think. And the tubes in there, which are better than the stock tubes, have begun to thump when called for. The Avengers was thumping more than previously, for sure. The overall sound filled in some more. I'm getting happier.

smile.gif
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post #551 of 717 Old 05-31-2013, 09:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prepress View Post

Call me impatient, I suppose, but not being pleased with the sound on the moving-magnet phono section, I re-installed my phono preamp and am using the 2300 as a line stage. What an improvement on the sound! The MM tubes probably needed their 20-30 hours of break-in apart form the line stage tubes, but I decided to make this move anyway. I will stay with this configuration, I think. And the tubes in there, which are better than the stock tubes, have begun to thump when called for. The Avengers was thumping more than previously, for sure. The overall sound filled in some more. I'm getting happier.

smile.gif

This a perfect example of that rare moment when all things align and *BOOM*--a pleasant surprise is born! I'm glad you found a config that wholly satisfying!
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post #552 of 717 Old 06-01-2013, 03:16 AM - Thread Starter
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This a perfect example of that rare moment when all things align and *BOOM*--a pleasant surprise is born! I'm glad you found a config that wholly satisfying!

I still have the JJ ECC803s Gold Pin tubes I bought before the C2300 arrived, and perhaps will try them at some point. This is the description from Tube Depot:

This tube provides a forward sounding, full-bodied low end response with a weighty, dynamic midrange easily compared to the Telefunken ECC803s. Its high end response is controlled yet warm with a very pleasant depth of field that extends the full sonic landscape. This tube is perfect as the first gain stage in most HiFi audio equipment. Especially useful for taming brittle digital sources such as MP3, CD and DVD players.

Some CDs sound a bit hard at the top end, especially older stuff not recorded well. And because of the improvement I have now, I'm curious. Changing tubes is a pain, as I have to disconnect the preamp and pull it from the rack to do that. Still, if curiosity wins, I will.

On another note, the power problem I was having with my system shutting down whenever the air conditioner's compressor kicked in has been solved, it seems. When the system was reconfigured, I plugged my Furman Elite–15 PFi into the SPR voltage regulator; it had been the other way around. The SPR now goes into the wall. The A/C has engaged twice with no problem. The problem seems to have been the SPR being plugged into one of the Elite's power factor plugs, those with the current reserve. I'm keeping the extension cord I got, but it doesn't appear I'll need it. Still, one never knows.
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post #553 of 717 Old 06-01-2013, 09:08 AM - Thread Starter
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The VE shootout is on YouTube. Check out the Q & A session at about 17:50 in. I asked a question!

http://www.youtube.com/user/HDTVShootout
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post #554 of 717 Old 06-03-2013, 08:24 PM
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Hey prepress, here's the link to the Q/A section: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcXcsN37v1I

The original link goes to an opening of a previous shootout.
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post #555 of 717 Old 06-04-2013, 01:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post

Hey prepress, here's the link to the Q/A section: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcXcsN37v1I

The original link goes to an opening of a previous shootout.

Your link goes directly to the Q & A. Mine goes to the main page and the Q & A has to be selected underneath that introductory video (2nd from the left), as well as other excerpts. I gave the general page so folks could look at other stuff besides that. But yes, there are not only 2013 videos but previous years on that page, too.
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post #556 of 717 Old 06-11-2013, 01:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, I took the plunge and rolled tubes in my C2300 to the JJ ECC803s tubes I bought prior to the 2300's arrival. There aren't many hours on them, but so far so good. It takes 20–30 hours for tubes to break in, and at that point you pretty much have what they will sound like. We'll see. The Amperex tubes sounded really nice, but I want to see if the JJs have more thump to them. If so, they stay in.

I am still considering a Marantz MM-7025 power amp to supplant the Harmon-Kardon receiver on the small second system in the bedroom. It doesn't get much use these days, but may during the summer. I can pair it with the Marantz DV8400 and Denon TU-800 displaced from the main system, along with the old B&K PRO-10MC preamp. Plus, at 140wpc, the Marantz will drive my Mirages if need be, or see use with L/R surrounds if I ever got crazy on the main setup; unlikely in this apartment, but who knows?
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post #557 of 717 Old 06-15-2013, 03:09 AM - Thread Starter
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I did something last night that may have improved the chances I'll keep the McIntosh C2300 in the mix here. I was watching Jeff Beck Live at Ronnie Scott's last night, and was again aware that the low frequencies were lacking thump. It's not good when you can't enjoy what you're watching because you're too aware of what's missing. Despite the other marvelous things this pre does, it still lacked in the bottom frequencies to my ears and in my system. I was actually beginning to consider trading it in or selling it for something else.

Then the idea struck to try the tone controls. So I went into the menu and turned the bass up from 0 to 2dB (the range is +/- 12dB). TRANSFORMATION. Things filled in, weight increased, and with no apparent damage to the mids or highs. I knew this was supposed to be a pretty sophisticated implementation, but I was quite impressed. On to Yes Live at Montreaux. Same thing. In fact, this sounds like what I get from my ARC LS3, except better due to the more open sound. The +2 is more than enough.

The tubes also need another 10-15 hours to be broken in more fully, but this is great! I'll throw on Avengers excerpts to see what's happening there next. The purist part of me feels a bit strange about having to resort to the tone controls, but I won't argue with what it's done to the sound.
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post #558 of 717 Old 06-17-2013, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by prepress View Post

I did something last night that may have improved the chances I'll keep the McIntosh C2300 in the mix here. I was watching Jeff Beck Live at Ronnie Scott's last night, and was again aware that the low frequencies were lacking thump. It's not good when you can't enjoy what you're watching because you're too aware of what's missing. Despite the other marvelous things this pre does, it still lacked in the bottom frequencies to my ears and in my system. I was actually beginning to consider trading it in or selling it for something else.

Then the idea struck to try the tone controls. So I went into the menu and turned the bass up from 0 to 2dB (the range is +/- 12dB). TRANSFORMATION. Things filled in, weight increased, and with no apparent damage to the mids or highs. I knew this was supposed to be a pretty sophisticated implementation, but I was quite impressed. On to Yes Live at Montreaux. Same thing. In fact, this sounds like what I get from my ARC LS3, except better due to the more open sound. The +2 is more than enough.

The tubes also need another 10-15 hours to be broken in more fully, but this is great! I'll throw on Avengers excerpts to see what's happening there next. The purist part of me feels a bit strange about having to resort to the tone controls, but I won't argue with what it's done to the sound.

Hey prepress, I'm glad that you're one step closer to complete satisfaction. There's nothing wrong with tone controls if they improve the sound. For lack of a better analogy, if a man's wife gets artificial implants in her chest area--sure, she wasn't born with them, but does that make them any less....errr....useful? The answer is a resounding no! (provided her doctor did a good job biggrin.gif). i'm very happy that the tone control has improved your enjoyment of your music--and, even better, you're getting that improvement even before the break-in period is over! You can only go upward from here. cool.gif
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post #559 of 717 Old 06-17-2013, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by prepress View Post

I did something last night that may have improved the chances I'll keep the McIntosh C2300 in the mix here. I was watching Jeff Beck Live at Ronnie Scott's last night, and was again aware that the low frequencies were lacking thump. It's not good when you can't enjoy what you're watching because you're too aware of what's missing. Despite the other marvelous things this pre does, it still lacked in the bottom frequencies to my ears and in my system. I was actually beginning to consider trading it in or selling it for something else.

Then the idea struck to try the tone controls. So I went into the menu and turned the bass up from 0 to 2dB (the range is +/- 12dB). TRANSFORMATION. Things filled in, weight increased, and with no apparent damage to the mids or highs. I knew this was supposed to be a pretty sophisticated implementation, but I was quite impressed. On to Yes Live at Montreaux. Same thing. In fact, this sounds like what I get from my ARC LS3, except better due to the more open sound. The +2 is more than enough.

The tubes also need another 10-15 hours to be broken in more fully, but this is great! I'll throw on Avengers excerpts to see what's happening there next. The purist part of me feels a bit strange about having to resort to the tone controls, but I won't argue with what it's done to the sound.

At the end of the day its all about the sound Charles smile.gif

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post #560 of 717 Old 06-18-2013, 03:43 PM - Thread Starter
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At the end of the day its all about the sound Charles smile.gif

True. And the sound is better now. Listening to a local college radio station (WKCR, Columbia University) I was impressed with how clean it was. And satisfyingly full. That same station is on now, playing some jazz. The bass is nicely articulate. I like it.

Last night as promised, I stuck The Avengers BD in the player for the umpteenth time; it's now one of my test discs on this journey. Serious thump when called for. And thud, too.
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post #561 of 717 Old 06-18-2013, 03:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey prepress, I'm glad that you're one step closer to complete satisfaction. There's nothing wrong with tone controls if they improve the sound. For lack of a better analogy, if a man's wife gets artificial implants in her chest area--sure, she wasn't born with them, but does that make them any less....errr....useful? The answer is a resounding no! (provided her doctor did a good job biggrin.gif). i'm very happy that the tone control has improved your enjoyment of your music--and, even better, you're getting that improvement even before the break-in period is over! You can only go upward from here. cool.gif

Upward would be nice. Maybe not upward the way you've gone, since I'd need a house and more money!!! That's an incredible setup you have going.

But I am enjoying the increase in detail, the ease of listening . . . the same bass I mentioned in my reply to Franin sounds very real. I can hear the vibration and resonances of the strings as they're plucked. Acoustic bass is a nice thing. And to my delight, the visual "bling" of the C2300 isn't a distraction when watching BDs/DVDs/LDs as I thought at first. Maybe I'm getting used to it.
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post #562 of 717 Old 06-23-2013, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by prepress View Post

True. And the sound is better now. Listening to a local college radio station (WKCR, Columbia University) I was impressed with how clean it was. And satisfyingly full. That same station is on now, playing some jazz. The bass is nicely articulate. I like it.

Last night as promised, I stuck The Avengers BD in the player for the umpteenth time; it's now one of my test discs on this journey. Serious thump when called for. And thud, too.

Which is your demo scene in Avengers Charles ?

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post #563 of 717 Old 06-23-2013, 12:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Which is your demo scene in Avengers Charles ?

The battle in Manhattan in general, and more specifically the scene where Iron Man attempts to destroy the portal, then the one where he flies by the Widow blasting Chitauri before landing to help out Captain America. In each there is a deep loud boom when IM fires his repulsors, and the sound conveys power and impact. It needs to sound impressive, and has.

The Rick Wakeman solo in Yes: Live at Montreaux was somewhat thin on the lower register with the previous tubes and settings. Now, the sound is fuller. I haven't tried LPs yet, and haven't played music in a couple of days, in fact. But things have been great sound-wise with the change in tubes and settings on the 2300.
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post #564 of 717 Old 07-07-2013, 09:18 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm not sure this is a good thing, but I've begun to think about new speakers, especially since following BrolicBeast's foray into Legacy Focus SEs and the overall quality of them.

I don't actually need new speakers, as my Mirage M-3si pair is still going strong; this idea is simply the result of exposure. I am already looking at Brystons, Legacies, Def Techs, Revels and Mirages; I can't afford the McIntosh XR200s; I don't have $20K lying around. And the Mirage OMD-28s depend greatly on reflections to achieve their effect, and my room doesn't have a bare wall for them to work with, so I'd be concerned about them.

So the list is the Bryston Model T, Legacy Focus (HD and SE), Signature SE, Def Tech Mythos ST, Mirage OMD-28, Golden Ear Triton Two, and the Revel Salon2. I am curious about these yet feel no urgency to replace my current Mirages. This whole notion could well fade if I don't feed it too much, or just listen more to what I have rather than moon over what others buy or what's available that's conceivable for me financially. But when I had the same ideas about a preamp I ended up getting one, though that took almost 2 years. As for potential cuts from the list, the Legacy Focus HD and SE are heavier than I'm comfortable with, as are the Revels. Legacy's Focus SE is just under 10K; I also wonder about image height with the Signatures and Triton Twos, as the drivers would be about 6" lower than my current speakers (which cut across the middle of my TV screen perfectly; the M-3si's high image and driver config is perfect for the illusion of sound coming from the TV). And the Salon2s are around 9K. This is a 1BR apartment, after all, and practical considerations as well as cost come into play.

I will entertain this fantasy with caution. I will continue to listen to my current system. We will see.
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post #565 of 717 Old 07-07-2013, 07:16 PM
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I would like to toss in one more speaker for you to "think about" and that would be a pair of Seaton Catalyst 8-C's or 12-C's plus two of his SubMersive subs. Total cost with the 8-C's and dual subs would be about $10,000. The speakers (and subs) are powered (2400 watts for each of the subs) and the speakers are internally tri-amped at 1000 watts each speaker. Should you consider the 12-C's, the price goes up by $2000 and the 12-C amps are tri-amped at 2000 watts per channel. And, I believe, they are try-it- to buy it but you may need to check with Mark to validate that.

I have owned a lot of very expensive and excellent speakers, and these will keep up with those that cost 2 to 3 times their price.
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post #566 of 717 Old 07-08-2013, 03:06 AM - Thread Starter
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I would like to toss in one more speaker for you to "think about" and that would be a pair of Seaton Catalyst 8-C's or 12-C's plus two of his SubMersive subs. Total cost with the 8-C's and dual subs would be about $10,000. The speakers (and subs) are powered (2400 watts for each of the subs) and the speakers are internally tri-amped at 1000 watts each speaker. Should you consider the 12-C's, the price goes up by $2000 and the 12-C amps are tri-amped at 2000 watts per channel. And, I believe, they are try-it- to buy it but you may need to check with Mark to validate that.

I have owned a lot of very expensive and excellent speakers, and these will keep up with those that cost 2 to 3 times their price.

The website is under renovation so I went to the forum. I was a bit amazed that the Catalyst 12C, with two 12" woofers in it, goes down to only 50Hz. I guess they want you to use a sub with them. I'm not necessarily a fan of powered speakers, which is why it's preferable that I get speakers that are full-range or, if powered, can be driven full-range by an amplifier. Thus with the Def Techs, the Mythos is the current preference because it states clearly in the manual you can do that; not so with the BP series, so I have an e-mail in to Def Tech.

Because replacing my current speakers isn't a true plan, I can look around casually. Last night I played the tuner and ran a DVD and didn't feel as if I was missing much. On some bass notes which are softer, where it sounds as if the bass disappears for that moment, I did wonder if another few hertz would solve that or is it the source. I never thought of that before, and I've had the Mirages for 20 years and change. I do suspect the source, because when the notes are there they have weight; now and then I feel them as much as hear them.
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post #567 of 717 Old 07-08-2013, 05:54 PM
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The website is under renovation so I went to the forum. I was a bit amazed that the Catalyst 12C, with two 12" woofers in it, goes down to only 50Hz. I guess they want you to use a sub with them..

At the most recent Axpona he had a modified DSP program that ran them full range but if you don't like active speakers then that won't matter!
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post #568 of 717 Old 07-09-2013, 03:00 AM - Thread Starter
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At the most recent Axpona he had a modified DSP program that ran them full range but if you don't like active speakers then that won't matter!

I'll need to dig up a manual if one's available to see if they can be driven without plugging in. I have a weird feeling about using my amps to drive only part of the speaker, given their power and cost. And the extra outlets that would be required for powered speakers carries its own issues given my circumstances, both real and potential.

I'll also have to decide that I am going to replace my speakers. It's still a hypothetical, casual "what if" at this point. Last night's listening/viewing session didn't make it any more likely to become "I want to."

But the Seatons look good, and to the extent you can judge from YouTube, sound good.
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post #569 of 717 Old 07-13-2013, 06:11 PM
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I'll need to dig up a manual if one's available to see if they can be driven without plugging in. I have a weird feeling about using my amps to drive only part of the speaker, given their power and cost. And the extra outlets that would be required for powered speakers carries its own issues given my circumstances, both real and potential.

I'll also have to decide that I am going to replace my speakers. It's still a hypothetical, casual "what if" at this point. Last night's listening/viewing session didn't make it any more likely to become "I want to."

But the Seatons look good, and to the extent you can judge from YouTube, sound good.

Your not happy with your current speakers Charles?

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post #570 of 717 Old 07-14-2013, 03:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Your not happy with your current speakers Charles?

Actually I mostly am, Frank, but it's often the case (and the risk) that frequent exposure to the forums and magazines can raise one's curiosity and influence thinking. It's mainly an idle thought right now, and I have no plans to make a move to replace my Mirages, but I am aware a seed has been planted.

One thought is that my speakers are 20 years old and maybe I should update them before I retire, when I probably won't be able to afford it. Retirement is at least 7–8 years away, Lord willing, but large discretionary purchases need to be looked at carefully this close to it. It would be foolish to empty my bank account on anything (hence my somewhat reluctant rejection of the McIntosh XR200s), but even spending the equivalent of a year's worth of groceries (the Def Tech Mythos) or 6 months (Golden Ear) needs thought. However, I have downloaded manuals and looked at some specs.
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