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post #31 of 1070 Old 01-25-2011, 08:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Here are some simple shots of the sub


2400 watts of pure power in a room that is 1000cf. Yea Baby.
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post #32 of 1070 Old 01-25-2011, 08:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by gingus View Post

Nice setup. I have been seriously thinking of getting room treatments, but don't konw where to start.

Thanks. Treatments can be tricky. I will say that I first only wanted four total in my room. I ended up with eight. They have worked wonders. Mark Seaton, who really has driven me to make these changes said in a nice, roundabout way that I needed treatments years ago. I ended up contacting these guys
http://www.gikacoustics.com/
They really helped me a lot. I sent them pictures of my room and they made recommendations. Corners are a good place to start. You can look up about what are called "first reflection points" That should also help in the placement of the treatments. But I can recommend GIK without any problems. If I were you, I would contact them.

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post #33 of 1070 Old 03-14-2011, 12:12 PM - Thread Starter
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This month marks the 4 year point of me having the SubMersive. No regrets at all .

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post #34 of 1070 Old 03-16-2011, 05:47 AM
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Originally Posted by MIkeDuke View Post

This month marks the 4 year point of me having the SubMersive. No regrets at all .

Fantastic Mike! They're awesome subs.

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post #35 of 1070 Old 03-16-2011, 06:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Frank. Yea, I like it very much.

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post #36 of 1070 Old 03-16-2011, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by MIkeDuke
Thanks Frank. Yea, I like it very much.
I guess that's one item that will have a permanent residence in your home theatre.

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post #37 of 1070 Old 03-24-2011, 05:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Franin View Post

I guess that's one item that will have a permanent residence in your home theatre.

Yep. That is not going anywhere. I do need to tweak it some more and that will get done this weekend.

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post #38 of 1070 Old 03-29-2011, 09:55 AM - Thread Starter
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OK, an update for anyone watching . I installed some Focal 705v's to replace my Polk speakers. I can tell already that it was a good move. The surround speakers sound much better and intigrate better with my system. I also had a SMS-1 installed that helped with some bass issues I was having in my room. If anybody cares, I will go into detail but setting up the SMS-1 in the system "fixed" the issue I was having. My system really sounds fantastic now, if I can give props to my own system.

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post #39 of 1070 Old 03-29-2011, 11:37 AM
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Thats awesome Mike!! So you dont have issues any more with the one scene WOTW and the SubMersive HP?

If you have pics of the 705v installed, please post them.

I dont think I'll ever get tired of looking at your JM Lab 1027 speakers - so beautiful looking!


Thx,
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post #40 of 1070 Old 03-29-2011, 03:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Claude,
no issue. The solution was to put in a filter at 12Hz with a very steep 48db per octave slope. That did it. Now I can put WOTW at -10 with no problem at all.
Here is some more detailed and technical answers to what the issue was and what we did to correct them,
This is from CraigJohn. He helped me with the setup of my system.

"IIRC, we measured your system with the DSP-30 engaged, and we didn't measure it again until we had run Audyssey. IOW, we never saw the huge peak at 40 Hz because we never measured the response without some EQ involved. So the peak was there... we just never saw it because we didn't measure the system at the right time."

"The subsonic filter cut the output below 12 Hz. The sub-12 Hz content needs massive amplifier power, and the higher in level that it is, the more power it takes. Audyssey seemed to be boosting those frequencies, so cutting them countered what Audyssey was doing. Audyssey was boosting them due the complicated way that it sets level. When the levels are when you have a huge peak in your room, Audyssey not only cuts the peak, but it boosts the content outside the peak to try to get all frequencies to the same level. I, (and Mark), had hoped that cutting the peak with the SMS-1 would reduce the average level enough so that the rest of the frequencies wouldn't need to be boosted. That didn't quite work, so we needed to add the subsonic filter to reduce the levels of the lowest content."
So that did it. Now my room sounds fantastic. Even better then it did before.

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post #41 of 1070 Old 03-29-2011, 07:28 PM
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That's great you guys got it sorted out. I'm glad to read that all the changes made improvements in SQ as well.

Please post pics of the new surrounds as well when you have the time to take some pics.

You've inspired me to add some room treatments to my room as well. Hopefully I will have some installed in the up and coming months.

Thank you again for always helping me out and taking the time to provide awesome feedback! Its greatly appreciated!





Claude


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post #42 of 1070 Old 03-30-2011, 05:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MIkeDuke View Post

OK, an update for anyone watching . I installed some Focal 705v's to replace my Polk speakers. I can tell already that it was a good move. The surround speakers sound much better and intigrate better with my system. I also had a SMS-1 installed that helped with some bass issues I was having in my room. If anybody cares, I will go into detail but setting up the SMS-1 in the system "fixed" the issue I was having. My system really sounds fantastic now, if I can give props to my own system.

Fantastic stuff Mike. I knew the focals will do the job some pics will be great.

I love to hear the issue you were having and how the sms-1 fixed it for you. Btw I thought you would of used the AS-EQ1 for the sub eq.

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post #43 of 1070 Old 03-30-2011, 05:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey Franin,
One of the guys who helped with the setup had a Velodyne SMS-1 that he was not using so I bought it from him for a great price. I will try and take some pictures of the surrounds at some point. If you are interested in what we did and what the charts look like just goto the SubMersive thread in the subwoofer forum. There you will see some charts and comments posted by Craig.

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post #44 of 1070 Old 03-30-2011, 06:02 AM
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Originally Posted by MIkeDuke View Post

Hey Franin,
One of the guys who helped with the setup had a Velodyne SMS-1 that he was not using so I bought it from him for a great price. I will try and take some pictures of the surrounds at some point. If you are interested in what we did and what the charts look like just goto the SubMersive thread in the subwoofer forum. There you will see some charts and comments posted by Craig.

Cool.

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post #45 of 1070 Old 03-31-2011, 10:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Since this is my system thread, I am going to post the results here as well.

From Craig:

Last weekend, another forum member, DMark1, and I went to MikeDuke's house and helped him install some new surrounds. He had recently acquired some Focal Chorus 705v's to replace his older Polk surrounds. We got them installed, and then went to work on the *real* problem.

Mike's been having an issue with the Submersive occasionally shutting down in "protect" mode while listening to some content with extremely deep bass. Mark Seaton had theorized that the problem was being caused by Audyssey boosting the deepest bass through it's level normalization process. This post in the Audyssey thread explains the issue with graphs showing the boost:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post16982682

Mike has a big peak in his room at about 40 Hz:

Mark S. theorized that the Audyssey level setting algorithm was being overly influenced by the level of that big peak, and was using too high an "average" level pre-Audyssey, thereby causing the level to be boosted across the board post-Audyssey. This would result in a significant boost of the infrasonics as described in the post linked above.

Mark's thought was that using an external EQ to knock down the peak pre-Audyssey would allow Audyssey to "normalize" the volume without as much boost down low, and eliminate the problem. Therefore, the first thing we did was to install an SMS-1, and set some parametric EQ filters to reduce the peak. It took 3 bands with very narrow Q's, and 9 to 12 dB of cut to eliminate the huge peak:

Sidenote: In the upper right corner, you can see the "time" response of the system. The very bright red and yellow in the middle of the first plot represents the very large resonance of these frequencies in the range of the large frequency peak at 40 Hz. Note how much that resonance is reduced in the second plot by reducing the magnitude response with EQ.)

We then ran Audyssey XT32 in Mike's Integra DHC 80.2. The first thing it does is set the level of the subwoofer with a bass pink noise signal. There was a huge difference from the prior setting. With the gain setting on the Submersive at -24, Audyssey read a level of 85 dB. Previously, I had to set the gain as low as it would go to get a level of 85 dB. Clearly cutting the peak was helping. After running Audyssey, the subwoofer level was set to -7, so I knew we were in the right ball park!

We then put in the offending content: War of the Worlds. We skipped to the scene just after the "Pods Emerge" where Tom Cruise commandeers the minivan. As they're driving away, the pods are blowing up a bridge behind them. A truck is blown off the bridge and falls onto a house. That particular scene has consistently shut down Mike's Submersive. Unfortunately, it did so again, even after all our efforts.

Hmmm...
----------------------------------------------------------------------

After a lot of brainstorming we decided to try moving the sub out of the back corner. DMark had the brilliant idea of moving it up to mid-wall on the right side below the window. We had to re-arrange Mike's DVD racks and take a chair out of the room to do this, but it worked. In fact, Mike and his other family members thought the room looked better with this rearrangement. In this arrangement, I was able to set the Submersive level to -20 and still get an SPL of 83 dB.

We then re-ran Audyssey. The subwoofer level was again set to -7 in the Integra. We then re-listened to the same scene... with the exact same result. The Submersive still shut down at exactly the same point.

Hmmmm... scratch'ing head...
----------------------------------------------------------------------

The only option left was to insert a subsonic filter to remove the offending content. The SMS-1 allows the user adjust the subsonic filter in 1 Hz increments from 20 Hz down to 1 Hz in 1 Hz increments. It also allows the user to select the slope of the the filter in 6 dB/octave increments from 6 dB to 48 db per octave. So we set about trying different combinations of filters. We started with a 24 dB/octave filter at 20 Hz. No shutdown of the Submersive... Yeah!!!

We then sequentially moved the filter lower while trying different slopes. We ended up with a 12 Hz, 48 dB/octave subsonic filter. With that filter in place, we did not shut down the sub, and none of use could sense any diminution of the bass output.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

After all that, we re-measured the system. The following graph shows the response of the Submersive by itself, (green trace), and the speakers by themselves, (cyan trace.)


The sub is incredibly flat from 16 Hz to above the crossover. The speakers are reasonably flat from the crossover up.

The following graph shows the combined response of the speakers and sub playing together, (violet trace.) There is some interaction of the speakers and sub around the crossover:

However, if you go back up to the original "native" response vs. the response after the addition of the SMS-1 and Audyssey, the improvement is astonishing. We played around with slight modifications of the "Distance" setting of the subwoofer, but we weren't able to improve the response around the crossover point. We left it were Audyssey set it. (To clarify, the addition of the SMS-1 added about 4.2 ft. to the Distance setting. The previous setting was 7.0 ft. The setting after adding the SMS-1 was 11.2 ft. The extra "distance" accounted for the latency of the SMS-1.)

Mike has spent some time listening to his system since we did this and I will let him jump in and post his impressions of the new "sound."

Craig
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post #46 of 1070 Old 03-31-2011, 11:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunga99 View Post

That's great you guys got it sorted out. I'm glad to read that all the changes made improvements in SQ as well.

Please post pics of the new surrounds as well when you have the time to take some pics.

You've inspired me to add some room treatments to my room as well. Hopefully I will have some installed in the up and coming months.

Thank you again for always helping me out and taking the time to provide awesome feedback! Its greatly appreciated!




Claude

No problem Claude. Always glad to help where I can. I will keep checking your thread to see any treatments you get and what you think of them. If I get time, I will take some pictures of the surrounds and post them.

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post #47 of 1070 Old 03-31-2011, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MIkeDuke View Post

Since this is my system thread, I am going to post the results here as well.

From Craig:

Last weekend, another forum member, DMark1, and I went to MikeDuke's house and helped him install some new surrounds. He had recently acquired some Focal Chorus 705v's to replace his older Polk surrounds. We got them installed, and then went to work on the *real* problem.

Mike's been having an issue with the Submersive occasionally shutting down in "protect" mode while listening to some content with extremely deep bass. Mark Seaton had theorized that the problem was being caused by Audyssey boosting the deepest bass through it's level normalization process. This post in the Audyssey thread explains the issue with graphs showing the boost:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post16982682

Mike has a big peak in his room at about 40 Hz:

Mark S. theorized that the Audyssey level setting algorithm was being overly influenced by the level of that big peak, and was using too high an "average" level pre-Audyssey, thereby causing the level to be boosted across the board post-Audyssey. This would result in a significant boost of the infrasonics as described in the post linked above.

Mark's thought was that using an external EQ to knock down the peak pre-Audyssey would allow Audyssey to "normalize" the volume without as much boost down low, and eliminate the problem. Therefore, the first thing we did was to install an SMS-1, and set some parametric EQ filters to reduce the peak. It took 3 bands with very narrow Q's, and 9 to 12 dB of cut to eliminate the huge peak:

Sidenote: In the upper right corner, you can see the "time" response of the system. The very bright red and yellow in the middle of the first plot represents the very large resonance of these frequencies in the range of the large frequency peak at 40 Hz. Note how much that resonance is reduced in the second plot by reducing the magnitude response with EQ.)

We then ran Audyssey XT32 in Mike's Integra DHC 80.2. The first thing it does is set the level of the subwoofer with a bass pink noise signal. There was a huge difference from the prior setting. With the gain setting on the Submersive at -24, Audyssey read a level of 85 dB. Previously, I had to set the gain as low as it would go to get a level of 85 dB. Clearly cutting the peak was helping. After running Audyssey, the subwoofer level was set to -7, so I knew we were in the right ball park!

We then put in the offending content: War of the Worlds. We skipped to the scene just after the "Pods Emerge" where Tom Cruise commandeers the minivan. As they're driving away, the pods are blowing up a bridge behind them. A truck is blown off the bridge and falls onto a house. That particular scene has consistently shut down Mike's Submersive. Unfortunately, it did so again, even after all our efforts.

Hmmm...
----------------------------------------------------------------------

After a lot of brainstorming we decided to try moving the sub out of the back corner. DMark had the brilliant idea of moving it up to mid-wall on the right side below the window. We had to re-arrange Mike's DVD racks and take a chair out of the room to do this, but it worked. In fact, Mike and his other family members thought the room looked better with this rearrangement. In this arrangement, I was able to set the Submersive level to -20 and still get an SPL of 83 dB.

We then re-ran Audyssey. The subwoofer level was again set to -7 in the Integra. We then re-listened to the same scene... with the exact same result. The Submersive still shut down at exactly the same point.

Hmmmm... scratch'ing head...
----------------------------------------------------------------------

The only option left was to insert a subsonic filter to remove the offending content. The SMS-1 allows the user adjust the subsonic filter in 1 Hz increments from 20 Hz down to 1 Hz in 1 Hz increments. It also allows the user to select the slope of the the filter in 6 dB/octave increments from 6 dB to 48 db per octave. So we set about trying different combinations of filters. We started with a 24 dB/octave filter at 20 Hz. No shutdown of the Submersive... Yeah!!!

We then sequentially moved the filter lower while trying different slopes. We ended up with a 12 Hz, 48 dB/octave subsonic filter. With that filter in place, we did not shut down the sub, and none of use could sense any diminution of the bass output.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

After all that, we re-measured the system. The following graph shows the response of the Submersive by itself, (green trace), and the speakers by themselves, (cyan trace.)

The sub is incredibly flat from 16 Hz to above the crossover. The speakers are reasonably flat from the crossover up.

The following graph shows the combined response of the speakers and sub playing together, (violet trace.) There is some interaction of the speakers and sub around the crossover:

However, if you go back up to the original "native" response vs. the response after the addition of the SMS-1 and Audyssey, the improvement is astonishing. We played around with slight modifications of the "Distance" setting of the subwoofer, but we weren't able to improve the response around the crossover point. We left it were Audyssey set it. (To clarify, the addition of the SMS-1 added about 4.2 ft. to the Distance setting. The previous setting was 7.0 ft. The setting after adding the SMS-1 was 11.2 ft. The extra "distance" accounted for the latency of the SMS-1.)

Mike has spent some time listening to his system since we did this and I will let him jump in and post his impressions of the new "sound."

Craig

Hey mike I quickly read what happened I'm on my iPhone I will look at the graphs tonight but what an amazing story.

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post #48 of 1070 Old 04-02-2011, 10:06 AM
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So mike were you impressed with the new sounds?

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post #49 of 1070 Old 04-02-2011, 09:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Yep. They are much better then my old Polks. Every movie really sounds so much better. When things pan from back to front and front to back it really sounds about as seamless as I can imgaine. For ex, cars, planes or gunfire sound better now then before. Sometimes I am even turning arround now to see what that sound was. Plus, if there is movement or ambient sound or voices they sound better and much clearer then before. Matching "Be" surrounds would probably be even better but this was a good move for me.

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post #50 of 1070 Old 04-03-2011, 07:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MIkeDuke View Post

Yep. They are much better then my old Polks. Every movie really sounds so much better. When things pan from back to front and front to back it really sounds about as seamless as I can imgaine. For ex, cars, planes or gunfire sound better now then before. Sometimes I am even turning arround now to see what that sound was. Plus, if there is movement or ambient sound or voices they sound better and much clearer then before. Matching "Be" surrounds would probably be even better but this was a good move for me.

It's good to hear mike, though I don't think the matching " BE " will show that much difference especially being surrounds.

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post #51 of 1070 Old 04-03-2011, 08:38 AM - Thread Starter
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If I had a bigger room I am sure the bipole or dipole nature of the SR1000 surround speaker would prove itself effective. But, since my room is small, and the size of the "Be" bookshelf speaker were too large for where they had to go, Chorus was the answer. Again, I think having the EQ really helped in matching up the sound of the speakers to the fronts stage. Plus, the SMS-1 EQ really has helped also. The bass sounds fantastic now from the SubMersive. Yea, I am a happy camper.

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post #52 of 1070 Old 04-21-2011, 10:12 AM - Thread Starter
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One of the next steps for me will be a pair of these
http://www.la-z-boy.com/Product/12-3...mall-Recliner/
I know they are only Lazy Boy but what can you do. Stuff from Berkline, Acoustic Innovation, Cinematech and Acoustic Smart were just too big for my space. I sat in a Lazy Boy and it was comfy. Plus I am getting them in some of the higher grade leather so they won't be cheap. I have enough for one so all I need to do is save for a second one.,

In addition, I will be replacing my Monster Power conditioner for something by Audience. I think this will also be a nice upgrade as well.

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post #53 of 1070 Old 04-22-2011, 03:39 PM
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That’s some awesome upgrade with the furniture Mike!

I would not knock La-Z-boy in the least. About 7 months ago, the wife and I went to 5 different furniture stores in 2 week period trying to replace our recliners with some other recliners or movie theater type seating. We spent about 11-12hrs of sitting in many different chairs. Some of the furniture stores were mediocre (Ashley Furniture) some were fairly high end mom and pop shops. It may not look it but my current recliners are extremely comfortable so we could not find anything to match its comfort until we went to a store that sold La-z-boys. I’m not sure if your model does it but some of the current La-z-boy recliners have this feature where the leg extends up in 3 different positions and locks there until you decide to change it by pulling on the handle/lever and the back reclines independent from the legs. We loved those features! Plus the La-z-boys were the only chairs we found as comfy as our old recliners. We were dead set on buying 3 of them for our place and went home to think it over and decide on the color and fabric we would get. The only reason we decided to get new recliners were two of the three we owned had issues when reclining but I guess that is expected after 6 years of useage. I decided to try and fix them myself a bit so I could sell them real cheap on craigslist before we got our La-z-boys. Turns out my little attempt to fix them worked fairly well so we just decided to keep them. I’m glad I was able to fix them but was surprised how comfortable the La-z-boys were and how cool those feature were. Most of the mechanisms of the La-z-boy recliner parts seemed to be really well thought out and constructed compared to others we looked at. I think you will extremely happy with La-z-boy.


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post #54 of 1070 Old 04-23-2011, 03:59 AM
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Happy Easter Mike. I hope the Easter Bunny brings those La-z-boy for you.

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post #55 of 1070 Old 04-24-2011, 08:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks guys. Happy easter to you also. I ordred two yesterday. They should be ready in about six weeks. I went to Raymore and Flanigan, Ashley and Dane Decor. The Lazy boy were the most comfortable one I sat it. Plus the size is perfect for my room. Everything else was way too big a "puffy" for what I needed. I got the middle of the pack leather so it is going to be very nice I think. That also raised the price quite a bit but it was worth it. Those don't have different positions for the legs but that is OK. When it reclines it is very comfortable. Plus I got the wall a way option so I can put it 4 inches from the wall and have it fully recline. I will take some pictures when I get them.

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post #56 of 1070 Old 06-06-2011, 08:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Next Wed hopefully will be a happy day .

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post #57 of 1070 Old 06-07-2011, 04:29 AM
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Quote:
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Next Wed hopefully will be a happy day .

Good stuff Mike looking forward in seeing the pics.

I'm waiting for my pre amp to go for upgrades before I change mine. Get everything done that's needed to be done while the pre amp goes for it's upgrade.

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post #58 of 1070 Old 06-16-2011, 11:21 AM - Thread Starter
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For those following along, I got the chairs, but they were the wrong model. The salesman messed up and put the wrong number on the sheet. So now, I have to wait another three months to get the correct chairs. It also turns out this guy gave me a much bigger discount on the chairs then I should have recived. But in the end the prices are a wash so that is good news. This is the third time the sales man messed up so he may be in trouble after this one. They will let me keep the ones they sent until my chairs come in. So, back to the waiting game.

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post #59 of 1070 Old 06-21-2011, 07:37 AM
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For those following along, I got the chairs, but they were the wrong model. The salesman messed up and put the wrong number on the sheet. So now, I have to wait another three months to get the correct chairs. It also turns out this guy gave me a much bigger discount on the chairs then I should have recived. But in the end the prices are a wash so that is good news. This is the third time the sales man messed up so he may be in trouble after this one. They will let me keep the ones they sent until my chairs come in. So, back to the waiting game.
That's very annoying Mike 3 months!! I wonder if that salesman will have a job after that mess up? least they let you keep the ones they sent you for the time being.

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post #60 of 1070 Old 06-21-2011, 05:15 PM
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Bummer about the chairs. I hope this isn't indicative of the service the company provides or else they need to be more careful in who they hire.


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