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post #181 of 1003 Old 11-19-2011, 10:23 AM
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Mike,

Try the Neural Surround Modes. I like those the best. I rarely listen in straight 2-channel anymore. I really prefer Neural Surround or DSX with wides.

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post #182 of 1003 Old 11-19-2011, 11:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Mike,

Try the Neural Surround Modes. I like those the best. I rarely listen in straight 2-channel anymore. I really prefer Neural Surround or DSX with wides.

Craig

The THX Neural surrounds are the ones I like the best to be honest. But as I said, I can hardly notice any surround info from my surround speakers. The front stage sounds fantastic though. I will experiment with different cd's and see what happens.

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post #183 of 1003 Old 11-19-2011, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by MIkeDuke View Post

The THX Neural surrounds are the ones I like the best to be honest. But as I said, I can hardly notice any surround info from my surround speakers. The front stage sounds fantastic though. I will experiment with different cd's and see what happens.

With Neural, you're not supposed to "hear" the surrounds. They add ambiance, which should sound "diffuse." The thing I like best about Neural is the way it way it uses the CC. IME, it does a better job of portraying the central image with the hard center speaker than does the "phantom" image of a 2-channel system. The ambiance enhancement is icing.

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post #184 of 1003 Old 11-20-2011, 07:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

With Neural, you're not supposed to "hear" the surrounds. They add ambiance, which should sound "diffuse." The thing I like best about Neural is the way it way it uses the CC. IME, it does a better job of portraying the central image with the hard center speaker than does the "phantom" image of a 2-channel system. The ambiance enhancement is icing.

Craig

OK. I did not know that. I do like the over all sound of Neural. In my room though I don't even think I get any ambiance from them. But we can play arround when you stop by. But I also like the center stage without it. I also listened to a number of SACD's that were 5.1. Now those sounded great. Very active speakers all arround. You can hear different instruments in different speakers. That sounds cool. But again, I also like the phantom image. I think I always did. Even when I used to listen in the stores. But I will still play arround and listen with Neural once in awhile.

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post #185 of 1003 Old 11-20-2011, 09:44 AM
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All good points.

Of all the threads I encounter, Craig's the only individual that has referenced these Neural configs. It sounds quite intriguing. Now I don't hang out in the surround formats areas, however I'm all over the place when time permits (which is quite often w/my cardiac issues).

BTW, we viewed a Adele unplugged style 30 minute show I had on the DVR last night. It was originally on Palladia network. Damn, maybe this is old news, as I'm not familiar with if this show was new or months old,...but this mini concert was powerful. Her vocals are superb, as everyone knows,..but this short show was so damn sweet. Her and her pianst,..later with acoustic guitar as well. Anyway, I had to share,..it's that good.

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post #186 of 1003 Old 11-21-2011, 04:40 AM - Thread Starter
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When Craig played me music on his system and he used the Neural modes, it did sound awesome. Very immersive and just filled the room with sound. I guess when I used it I was expecting a sound like I get when I listen to a 5.1 SACD. But I don't get that. The front stage does sound great and my three front speakers are matched(same series) so music does sound great coming out of the center as well as the left and right speakers. But I can't even detect a hint of sound coming from the surrounds. Since I get such a great sound stage when I am in bypass mode, I figure I might as well just use that instead for when I listen to regular cd's. But, listening to how good MC SACD's sound has me thinking that I should see if I can find some more of them to get as well.

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post #187 of 1003 Old 11-21-2011, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by MIkeDuke View Post

But, listening to how good MC SACD's sound has me thinking that I should see if I can find some more of them to get as well.

Very few audio delights are as fine as a discrete, multi-channel release done right. That's actually what I attribute my re-entering the audio world again after many years of complacency. Through the 80's, and early 90's, I pursued quality stereo playback at home. As I got more into live sound (and other interests), I got away from advancing my system capability. Then, my excitement toward SACD, and it's inherent capability, I re-entered my active pursuit at home.

Now, I've still not taken the time to order WYWH, however I've got some superbly done multi-channel releases. Like many enthusiasts, I enjoy letting someone that typically only hears lossy program content, experience hi-rez,...Wow, they love it. It's funny, even though my music listening is maybe only 5-10% of my systems use, I still feel it's a 5.1 music system that we use for HT It's like I want to hang onto my past. The one great aspect about a HT system, high level playback is better tolerated long term than the same levels with music

Craig;
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With Neural, you're not supposed to "hear" the surrounds. They add ambiance, which should sound "diffuse."

That's sounds cool,...

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post #188 of 1003 Old 11-21-2011, 12:07 PM - Thread Starter
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As I think I mentioned before, I like watching concerts on my system. I normally pick the 5.1 surround format, be it DTS or DD. But for regular cd's I have always been a strait 2ch kind of guy. We shall see if that changes over time. But I still love my system for movies.

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post #189 of 1003 Old 11-23-2011, 04:29 AM - Thread Starter
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All right, I still like the strait ahead 2ch way, but I did listen to some music in that neural THX mode and it sounded better this time. Maybe it was the music. I played some AC\\DC Let there be Rock and it did not sound that bad. I think A lot of pressure is placed on the center so it has it to be a great one in my opinion. I think my CC1000be is up to the challenge but Craig's center is simply a beast of a speaker so I would guess that's why it sounds so great in his room. I went back and forth quickly while the song was playing and to be honest, I liked both ways. So I may go back and forth but that THX mode did sound better the second time around now that I knew what to listen for.

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post #190 of 1003 Old 11-23-2011, 08:13 AM
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Hi Mike,

The mode I use is not the Neural THX Music mode. It's the Neural Surround Mode. The Neural THX Music mode overlays THX processing over top of the Neural processing. It adds THX Loudness and THX Timbre Matching. I don't find those beneficial and prefer straight Neural processing. You'll find the Neural Surround mode under the Movies/TV menu. Even though it's not found under the "Music" menu, it can still be used for music. Take a look at Page 47 of your 5508's manual to read about the Neural modes.

In addition, on the preceding pages, all the different modes available in that pre/pro, (yes, all 48 of them!), are explained. In your system, the DSX modes and the 7-channel modes will not be available, so that limits the selections somewhat. Nonetheless, there are Dolby ProLogic modes, DTS Neo modes and THX modes. Try them all and see what you like.

I've been playing around with the DSX modes, adding the "Wide" speakers. On some material it works great, adding a wider front soundstage and making the acoustic space seem "bigger" and more enveloping. On other material, I don't like it so much because it seems to "de-focus" the imaging. It's hard to predict what content will be beneficial and what will be detrimental, but, in general it seems that 2-channel doesn't benefit from being upconverted to 9.2, and that Neural Surround 7.2 works better.

Anyway, try Neural Surround on your 5.1 system and see what you think.

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post #191 of 1003 Old 11-23-2011, 08:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Some times too many choices can be a pain. I will check out the one you mode you use and see how I like it. So that is just plain Jane NRL Surround right? I really have not sat down and tried that many. Like I said, I was mainly in bypass mode. But I will give some of the other ones a shot. Starting with the one you like.

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post #192 of 1003 Old 11-23-2011, 11:00 AM
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Some times too many choices can be a pain. I will check out the one you mode you use and see how I like it. So that is just plain Jane NRL Surround right? I really have not sat down and tried that many. Like I said, I was mainly in bypass mode. But I will give some of the other ones a shot. Starting with the one you like.

When I first started playing around with the different modes, I found it overwhelming also. I eventually narrowed it down to just a few that I use routinely. Just take your time and try them out. You'll probably eliminate some right away. Once you've narrowed it down, you can get more serious about the ones you like best.

Or... just stick with 2-channel. If you find you like that best, there's certainly nothing wrong with that.

Craig

PS. Do you know the quick method for toggling through the Modes. It's on the "Home" key on the remote.

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post #193 of 1003 Old 11-23-2011, 11:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Yea, I will mess around a bit to see what strikes me. Thanks for the tip on the home key. The system sounds great for music right now. As I am sure your Triads sound great . I will just keep playing around to see what I like. For movie soundtracks it sounds fantastic of course.

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post #194 of 1003 Old 12-05-2011, 11:45 AM - Thread Starter
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About a week ago, I had someone over for a about a half an hour. He is a drummer. I decided to put on some TOOL since that sounds really good on my system. I gave him the sweet spot seat and I sat in the other one. We listened to about 5-6 songs on two different albums. He really enjoyed it and he was floored by the way the drummer was making his kit do it's thing. But here is the funny part. I had it semi cranked. It was loud enough to notice it was loud but I was afraid to go louder because I was not sure if he would like it. During one song he looked over at me and gave me the signal to turn it up more. So I did. Man was the room rockin'. It sounded fantastic and clean. He was digging it big time. It was also still very clear. It was cool. Yea, I may not have super sensitive speakers or other speakers that people would non-audiophile speakers, but they can still rock the room.
BTW, that was in straight 2ch with no sub.

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post #195 of 1003 Old 12-06-2011, 04:41 AM
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Sounds fun Mike. It's always a pleasure having moments like those,...oftentimes they're too far and few between.

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post #196 of 1003 Old 12-06-2011, 07:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Yea, it was pretty cool to see his face. I am trying to expand my audio experience so I plan on exploring some Jazz. I have some and I was just given some new albums to check out from this reviewer friend who i have. Might as well try out different styles. The Jazz I do I have does sound good. So I figured, why not explore that a bit more.

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post #197 of 1003 Old 12-06-2011, 02:39 PM
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Thats great Mike! Glad you are also expanding your listening taste too, makes the hobby that much more fun.

Did you happen to demo the SubMersive for your drummer friend on any movies or was this just straight 2 channel fun? I would have loved to hear his thoughts on the SubMersive too
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post #198 of 1003 Old 12-06-2011, 03:14 PM - Thread Starter
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No, we really did not have the time. If he makes it over again I will play a movie clip or two for him to get his thoughts. I think I have played it for him before but a refresher can't hurt .

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post #199 of 1003 Old 12-12-2011, 04:15 AM - Thread Starter
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More yoga block fun. Star Trek must also have some very deep bass. I saw the blocks move a few times but two time in particular. One was then the whole fleet jumps into warp. One of the ships really makes them move. Plus, during the space jump. that sonic boom also makes them move. Not to mention it is a great sounding movie overall.
On another note, I am really impressed and a bit surprised that I can go to -12 on my Integra without any issues. I could probably go higher if I wanted but at that level just about every movie sounds great but not overwhelming nor does it hurt my ears. Way back when, I could never go that level before. I could only go to -17 maybe -16. So I am impressed with that as well. I used to read how people would say, "yea, I am at -10 or -5 or -12" and I would think "are these people really out of their minds?" Now that I know I can go to -12 and probably louder if I wanted, I understand. It is pretty cool.

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post #200 of 1003 Old 12-12-2011, 01:31 PM
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That's awesome Mike. You should try to get a video of the blocks moving.

I've experienced the same thing as you. I used to listen to my system at -16 to -19 too and wondered how some people could go louder. Then when I added the first set of acoustic treatments, I was able to go a db or 2-3 louder, later with the JTR speakers another db or 2 louder, now that recently added treatments for the ceiling, I can go another db or 2 louder. The wife and I watched a few movies recently the master volume was at -9 and we probably could have went louder too but -9 seemed plenty loud yet still not fatiguing. When I told the wife how loud it was she said "it did not seem that loud meaning it did not bother her one bit. There's no way I would have been able to go that loud for an entire movie prior to treatments and the JTR speakers in my small room.
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post #201 of 1003 Old 12-12-2011, 03:23 PM - Thread Starter
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We shall see. I don't have a video camera. Maybe Craig or Dennis have one and maybe I could convince them to bring it for goofs. As for more treatments I am torn. I have only llimited space to put more. I could probably do some more cable management and put 2 more in the front corner. I could probably put two more in back of my TV. I could probably put 2 more on my closet door and I could put more on the ceiling if I wanted too. But, it does sound fantastic. My measurements and RT times are already just about perfect so I don't know what more treatments would buy me. Plus, if I do that I would have to have the room re-eq'ed and that is something I would not want to do. -12db is not the max I think. -12db is the max I can have and not get yelled at. I have had it at -10db when Craig was over with no problems at all. I am sure if I got more sensitive, non-audiophile speakers I could go even louder like you do. But I like my JM Labs to damn much. And everytime I look at them all I see is the price I payed and I like them even more. I am sure someone like Craig, and his Triad Platinum speakers with his earthquake and other amps he gets can get to silly levels cleanly. Probably full reference with no problems at all. You could most likely do full reference also. I don't think I need that. -12 on all the big block-busters is fine with me. I am quite happy. Even with my audiophile speakers.
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You know, I may be able to take videos myself. I have a digital camera that I just remembered can shoot short video clips. I can expriment with that. Then I just need to see how to upload them.

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post #202 of 1003 Old 12-12-2011, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MIkeDuke View Post

We shall see. I don't have a video camera. Maybe Craig or Dennis have one and maybe I could convince them to bring it for goofs. As for more treatments I am torn. I have only llimited space to put more. I could probably do some more cable management and put 2 more in the front corner. I could probably put two more in back of my TV. I could probably put 2 more on my closet door and I could put more on the ceiling if I wanted too. But, it does sound fantastic. My measurements and RT times are already just about perfect so I don't know what more treatments would buy me. Plus, if I do that I would have to have the room re-eq'ed and that is something I would not want to do. -12db is not the max I think. -12db is the max I can have and not get yelled at. I have had it at -10db when Craig was over with no problems at all. I am sure if I got more sensitive, non-audiophile speakers I could go even louder like you do. But I like my JM Labs to damn much. And everytime I look at them all I see is the price I payed and I like them even more. I am sure someone like Craig, and his Triad Platinum speakers with his earthquake and other amps he gets can get to silly levels cleanly. Probably full reference with no problems at all. You could most likely do full reference also. I don't think I need that. -12 on all the big block-busters is fine with me. I am quite happy. Even with my audiophile speakers.

Hi Mike,

I'll just throw a couple of comments out there...

Your room and more treatments: I think your room is right were it should be; it's not too reflective and it's not too dead. I think your room augments your system really well. More treatments could over-deaden your room and actually *reduce* sound quality.

However, I think the one spot you could add some absorption is on the back wall directly behind your head. Your back wall absorption currently comes down to about 8" above your head. You get a strong reflection off the back wall very close to your ears. This is a very early and very strong reflection. Dampening it could be big in terms of tightening up your imaging. One of the best imaging systems I've ever heard had the seating against the back wall, but it had 4" of absorption directly behind the ears. Adding another 4" GIK panel right behind your head, (moving you seating forward 4"), would likely be very beneficial.

More bass traps could also help, but your current combo of traps and XT32 have provided a very flat response, especially through the mid and upper bass. I expect that more bass traps would have a less significant improvement, and probably not worth the money and effort.

Listening Levels: -12 in your room is "perceptually" as loud as -6 in my room. My room is over 4X as big as yours. It's also a lot "deader" with the acoustic ceiling and more extensive front and side wall absorption. The room reinforcement you get is substantially higher than what I get in my room. I have overcome the additional "deadness" of my room with high sensitivity, high power handling speakers driven by massive amplification. My system needs to work a *lot* harder to achieve the same level of perceptual loudness as you achieve in your room. You don't need to do that. If you are enjoying -12 in your room, (and I know I really enjoyed it the last time I was there), then targeting higher levels doesn't make a lot of sense, especially if it's going to bother the other members of the household.

Audiophile Speakers: Not sure what this means, but your "audiophile" speakers sound pretty dang good for home theater. Maybe they're not really "audiophile" speakers after all, and they're just plain ole "good" speakers.

Craig

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post #203 of 1003 Old 12-13-2011, 04:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Hi Mike,

I'll just throw a couple of comments out there...

Your room and more treatments: I think your room is right were it should be; it's not too reflective and it's not too dead. I think your room augments your system really well. More treatments could over-deaden your room and actually *reduce* sound quality.

However, I think the one spot you could add some absorption is on the back wall directly behind your head. Your back wall absorption currently comes down to about 8" above your head. You get a strong reflection off the back wall very close to your ears. This is a very early and very strong reflection. Dampening it could be big in terms of tightening up your imaging. One of the best imaging systems I've ever heard had the seating against the back wall, but it had 4" of absorption directly behind the ears. Adding another 4" GIK panel right behind your head, (moving you seating forward 4"), would likely be very beneficial.

More bass traps could also help, but your current combo of traps and XT32 have provided a very flat response, especially through the mid and upper bass. I expect that more bass traps would have a less significant improvement, and probably not worth the money and effort.

Listening Levels: -12 in your room is "perceptually" as loud as -6 in my room. My room is over 4X as big as yours. It's also a lot "deader" with the acoustic ceiling and more extensive front and side wall absorption. The room reinforcement you get is substantially higher than what I get in my room. I have overcome the additional "deadness" of my room with high sensitivity, high power handling speakers driven by massive amplification. My system needs to work a *lot* harder to achieve the same level of perceptual loudness as you achieve in your room. You don't need to do that. If you are enjoying -12 in your room, (and I know I really enjoyed it the last time I was there), then targeting higher levels doesn't make a lot of sense, especially if it's going to bother the other members of the household.

Audiophile Speakers: Not sure what this means, but your "audiophile" speakers sound pretty dang good for home theater. Maybe they're not really "audiophile" speakers after all, and they're just plain ole "good" speakers.

Craig

Thanks Craig. When I say "Audiophile" speakers I mean speakers that are typically thought as just music speakers. For instance, RMK had top end Revel speakers. Now he using JTR's. I think there is a perception out there. I think that it is "audiophile" speakers, in RMK's case Revel, in my case Focal, don't have the output that is needed for "real" uncompressed dynamics for HT. That's all I meant. Danley is another company I would put in the Non-audiophile speaker category. It has noting to do with how they sound. Let me make that clear. It's just IMHO many people think that speakers like I have are somewhat limiting in a HT environment. But I think, like you do, that they are just plain old good(great ) speakers.

So if I put another 4" panel right in back of my head, it would make a difference? I am assuming you are saying that I should put one in a horizontal position? I might be able to work that out. I have to see how the chairs look further in the room. Truthfully, I think these chairs have a higher back then my couch. When you guys come over we can explore that idea.

Finally, I am enjoying -12 in my room. That is really good on just about every movie I watch. If I am alone I know I can go louder if I want, but in general, I don't feel the need to. Thanks again for the insight Craig. It is always welcome.

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post #204 of 1003 Old 12-13-2011, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by MIkeDuke View Post

Thanks Craig. When I say "Audiophile" speakers I mean speakers that are typically thought as just music speakers. For instance, RMK had top end Revel speakers. Now he using JTR's. I think there is a perception out there. I think that it is "audiophile" speakers, in RMK's case Revel, in my case Focal, don't have the output that is needed for "real" uncompressed dynamics for HT. That's all I meant. Danley is another company I would put in the Non-audiophile speaker category. It has noting to do with how they sound. Let me make that clear. It's just IMHO many people think that speakers like I have are somewhat limiting in a HT environment. But I think, like you do, that they are just plain old good(great ) speakers.



Quote:


So if I put another 4" panel right in back of my head, it would make a difference? I am assuming you are saying that I should put one in a horizontal position? I might be able to work that out. I have to see how the chairs look further in the room. Truthfully, I think these chairs have a higher back then my couch. When you guys come over we can explore that idea.

You can try this easily. Just get a thick pillow and put it behind your head. If it helps, you've found your answer.

Quote:


Finally, I am enjoying -12 in my room. That is really good on just about every movie I watch. If I am alone I know I can go louder if I want, but in general, I don't feel the need to. Thanks again for the insight Craig. It is always welcome.

Keep enjoying your system.

Craig

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post #205 of 1003 Old 12-13-2011, 07:32 AM - Thread Starter
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I will try the pillow thing and see what happens. When the chair is not reclined I think there really is not much space. With it reclined, there is of course a bit more space. But I will experiment.

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post #206 of 1003 Old 12-13-2011, 08:07 AM
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I haven't seen your new chairs yet. Do the seat-backs come up higher than ear level? If so, it may not be beneficial to do this. Or, it may only help when the seat-backs are reclined. Anyway, just try experimenting.

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post #207 of 1003 Old 12-13-2011, 08:14 AM - Thread Starter
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I haven't seen your new chairs yet. Do the seat-backs come up higher than ear level? If so, it may not be beneficial to do this. Or, it may only help when the seat-backs are reclined. Anyway, just try experimenting.

Craig

Maybe not higher than ear level, but I think they do come up higher then my couch did. I can even extend my legs while keeping the back strait. I will see what I can do. Probably over the weekend. People want me to try and video tape my yoga blocks moving and post the video. I can shoot the video with my digital camera but I don't know how to post them here.

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post #208 of 1003 Old 12-13-2011, 03:11 PM - Thread Starter
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I double checked. The back of the chairs do come up pretty high. I am not sure if I even have 4in now between the top of my head and the bottom of the treatment. Now that I look at it again, I am not sure I could even put anything back there that would be worth the effort.

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post #209 of 1003 Old 12-22-2011, 09:26 AM - Thread Starter
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This is for anybody in here who knows more then me. Which I guess is quite a few. Please look at these two pics. I was wondering if putting some treatments on the wall next to my speakers would do any good.


I sent an email to Bryan Pape at GIK and this is what he said.
"There are 2 different things going on.
1. Reflections off the side wall. Diffusion can work but being that close, your reflections are pretty far off axis so the spectral balance really likely isn't worth trying to scatter.
2. Boundary interactions in the midbass through lower midrange. Panels directly beside the speakers will address this.

Using 1 244 on each side wall would likely be able to address both issues."

Now if I do that, I should not have to re run the EQ again right? Does anybody have any thoughts.
Thanks
LL
LL

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post #210 of 1003 Old 12-22-2011, 08:55 PM
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Hopefully someone more knowledgeable like Craig will jump in but I think you may want to re-run XT32 after adding more bass traps to the room. Here’s my overly simple, probably wrong, thinking on it but here it is anyways.

Prior to your current treatments and Audyssey XT32, you may have had a Bump/boost (8 db) at say 100hz and a dip (8db) at say 160hz, then a dip again at 220hz and etc (not saying that’s the case - just shooting out random Hz and random decibels reading). After adding your current treatments, it could have reduced that Bump at 100hz by 4db and could have raised those dips by 3db (again random numbers). Running XT32 should have taken all of this into consideration and gave a flat or flatter response (which is what you currently have).

Adding new 4 inch thick bass traps to the side of the speakers may actually help with side wall reflections but it may also resolve some bumps and dips you had prior to Audyssey XT32. So by adding more traps now and Not re-running Audyssey, its theoretically possible that you could have dips in places where you previously had a boost and a boost where you previously had dips. This leads me to believe that running Audyssey again after you install the new bass traps/treatments would be a good idea.

I’m not sure if I clearly stated it above so I’ll try with the examples below:

Step 1: 100hz +8db and 160hz -8db Before Treatments and prior to Audyssey.
Step 2: 100hz +4db and 160hz -5db After your current Treatments only.(dips and boost reduced)
Step 3: 100hz 0.0db and 160hz 0.0db Audyssey XT32 and current Room Treatments (flat response)
Step 4: 100hz -3db and 160hz +3db New Side Bass Traps next to main speakers & not re-running X32.
Step 5: 100hz 0.0db and 160hz 0.0db All Treatments and Re-running Audyssey XT32 (flat response)

This is all theoretical of course and an over simplification. It seems to me that re-running Audyssey, while not "necessary" since (Step 4) is still a really good/flat response, would only help.
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